Methods of knocking out creatures with Shadow Magic?

[magicalmagicman]

Shadowcraft Mages seem really, really fun, so I want to play one, but I need a way to knock creatures out from range, which is why I've been going Orb Blaster with nonlethal metamagic substitution.

So what are some ways of knocking creautres out with shadow spells? Spell level limit is 7. So up to 7th level copied spells is allowed.

[weckar]

If you are looking for greater versatility at range, the Reach Spell metamagic may be worth looking into.

[magicalmagicman]

If you are looking for greater versatility at range, the Reach Spell metamagic may be worth looking into.

Why didn't I think of that before o_o. Thanks! But still, I'm interested in ways of knocking things out with shadow magic. Its surprising how things that bothered you before still bother you now even though you're doing something different.

[Janthkin]

Whelm/Mass Whelm/Whelming Blast (PHB2) aren't Shadow spells, but they are Beguiler spells.

If you can communicate with them, Summoned (Shadow) creatures can do subdual damage (with the usual restrictions on doing subdual damage with lethal weapons, in some cases).

Bigby's Striking Fist can be mimicked by a SCM.

What's the goal? Why specifically knocking out? (There are plenty of incapacitating effects, but without knowing your intent, it's hard to know which to recommend.)

[magicalmagicman]

Whelm/Mass Whelm/Whelming Blast (PHB2) aren't Shadow spells, but they are Beguiler spells.

If you can communicate with them, Summoned (Shadow) creatures can do subdual damage (with the usual restrictions on doing subdual damage with lethal weapons, in some cases).

Bigby's Striking Fist can be mimicked by a SCM.

What's the goal? Why specifically knocking out? (There are plenty of incapacitating effects, but without knowing your intent, it's hard to know which to recommend.)

Knock out a planar bound creature to safely land touch spells like necrotic cyst. Shadow summoned creatures are bit too weak to knock out the creatures I'm thinking of.

[Fizban]

Sharn: City of Towers has a pair of non-lethal evocations that are quite good, and if you're using Shadow Evocation you avoid the only downside of having to learn them in the first place.

[ILM]

Why don't you just use Spectral Hand? :smallconfused:

[magicalmagicman]

Why don't you just use Spectral Hand? :smallconfused:

Because any creature can use an attack of opportunity to smash that hand into pieces before it gets to land its touch spell.


Sharn: City of Towers has a pair of non-lethal evocations that are quite good, and if you're using Shadow Evocation you avoid the only downside of having to learn them in the first place.

Not bad... 25 non lethal points of damage every round on average. Hmm, might work. Thanks! Only question is, is city of towers official? Like demonweb pitts official?

[ILM]

Because any creature can use an attack of opportunity to smash that hand into pieces before it gets to land its touch spell.
First, it's incorporeal, so not any creature. Second, why does a creature get an AoO? Third, who even cares? The creature is bound into your summoning circle and can't do anything to you; you could throw Spectral Hands and Necrotic Cysts at it all day every day, you just need to wait for it to bungle its AoO...

[Manyasone]

I believe the hand is tiny, hence it needs to enter the space, thus provoking an AoO

[ILM]

I believe the hand is tiny, hence it needs to enter the space, thus provoking an AoO
Well, it's not explicitly tiny but from the AC you can infer that it would be, so I see where you're coming from. Kind of feel that's an oversight from the designers rather than RAI since it's so easily overlooked but I won't argue the point. Thanks for clarifying!

[Zombimode]

Not bad... 25 non lethal points of damage every round on average. Hmm, might work. Thanks! Only question is, is city of towers official? Like demonweb pitts official?

What do you mean? Sharn: City of Towers is one of the Eberron source books. It's "official" in the same sense that the ECS or the PGtF are official.

[Necrov]

Overwhelm. Sixth level beguiler spell. Using reach spell. Does the exact job you want. Though would be an 8th level spell. Mage Hand Overwhelm, is good. Cast displacement on your mage hand if you're that worried about it.

[ILM]

Good find but Spectral Hand can only deliver spells up to 4th level. If you don't need to do it more than 3/day, a Metamagic Rod of Reach (MIC) for 32.5k would work well.

[Necrov]

Good find but Spectral Hand can only deliver spells up to 4th level. If you don't need to do it more than 3/day, a Metamagic Rod of Reach (MIC) for 32.5k would work well.

This would appear to be the most elegant solution. Good teamwork friend.

[Janthkin]

I believe the hand is tiny, hence it needs to enter the space, thus provoking an AoOSo cast Invisibility on the hand? Swarm the creature with shadow monkeys to absorb all of it's AoOs?

[magicalmagicman]

What do you mean? Sharn: City of Towers is one of the Eberron source books. It's "official" in the same sense that the ECS or the PGtF are official.

I thought that book was a campaign not a source book.

Alright thanks! This seems to be the best solution! Get the creature down to low hp with enervation and shadow evocation blasting, then knock the last few hp out with force hammer. Thanks

Seriously, Thanks! I can skip Reach Spell as a feat.

[Divide by Zero]

You can always get out your trusty crossbow and shoot bolts with boxing gloves on the tip.

[Fizban]

Remember that nonlethal damage doesn't just go away. If you take lethal damage that drops your hp low enough that your nonlethal damage would put you under, you fall unconcious just the same. It's actually more advantageous to lead with your nonlethal attacks before the enemy has a chance to raise further defenses, and then pile on with your normal attacks that take no penalties, pre-loading the KO so you don't have to worry later. You just need enough of a nonlethal buffer than the last lethal attack knocks them out instead of killing them: normally a creature can survive up to 10 damage even if they're fighting full strength at 1hp. Add on 25 nonlethal damage and now they can go from "1" to "-34" without dying (because they actually had 26hp and 25 nonlethal, ending at -9 and 25 nonlethal) and end up unconcious no matter how you deal the next 2 points of damage that drop them to "-1." It also makes a lot more sense than trying to guess when their hp is one hit from death, and the Sharn spells include a save or daze effect that's best used before they're unconscious.

In the unlikely event your DM is throwing foes that use healing magic mid-combat, be aware that healing magic pulls double duty: it cures the same amount of nonlethal as it does lethal as a free side effect. That's the only reason I can think of to delay your nonlethal damage. Fast healing and regeneration don't do this, fast healing does the nonlethal first and regeneration only heals nonlethal to begin with (and converts most lethal to nonlethal).