Shadow Miracle Duplicated Spell... Will save + SR?

[magicalmagicman]

I'm deciding when to get wyrm wizard on my shadowcraft mage. Depending on how Shadow Miracles work, I might get it much earlier instead of waiting way later. There was a similar thread but I still need to be 100% sure.

When you cast Miracle as a shadow spell:
1. the duplicated spell is also a shadow spell. Everything requires will saves, is SR:YES, but no xp or costly material component is used up. The spells functions without believing in an ideal or worshiping a deity.

OR

2. the duplicated spell is NOT a shadow spell. When you cast shadow miracle, you request a deity for help. That's where the spell ends. Then the deity creates the duplicated spell effects for you. The spell does not function without believing in an ideal or worshipping a deity, and any duplicated spell requires costly material components and xp

Which is it?

[RoboEmperor]

By RAW it is #2, no question.

Miracle is a request

You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.

So everything that happens is by your deity or the power you believe in. I just like to point out that because this shadow miracle is an arcane spell, it bypasses the need to have a deity in forgotten realms setting. Since you're a shadowcraft mage, believe in the shadow (domain), and the shadow will grant your miracles.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't advocate for this position, mind, but be aware that a DM might rule that shadow evoking a miracle might auto-fail since the deity (or similar power) might choose to simply ignore the request because it doesn't come through the proper channels.

[RoboEmperor]

I don't advocate for this position, mind, but be aware that a DM might rule that shadow evoking a miracle might auto-fail since the deity (or similar power) might choose to simply ignore the request because it doesn't come through the proper channels.

Unless the deity you believe in has the shadow domain. If anything he'd applaud you. Or trickery domain, or the like.

[magicalmagicman]

I just realized something. What's stopping me from casting miracle normally?

I guess the only advantage of this shadow thing is like someonenoone11 said, to bypass worshiping a deity, or avoid the 5,000xp cost for greater effects.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless the deity you believe in has the shadow domain. If anything he'd applaud you. Or trickery domain, or the like.

Maybe. Or maybe the deity says, "Nice try but you'll need to do better than that to fool me," since the DM thinks being able to bypass the cost is BS and won't allow it.

For whatever it's wort; I'd probably allow it with the understanding that bypassing the cost means bypassing the higher order potential of the spell. If you can't be bothered to risk your own XP, the deity can't be bothered to give you his full attention.

[gogogome]

There was a similar thread about simulacrum on this forum, but I would just like to point out that you can get around paying xp costs and material components for duplicated spells with shadow miracles.

Duplicating a spell without its costly components is a "very powerful request". Proof of this is that you can resurrect outsiders with both miracle and true resurrection. One has a 5,000xp cost, the other has 25,000gp. It is also interesting to note that miracle here replicated a level 9 spell.

So, in other words, Miracle can replicate a level 9 cleric spell without its costly components for a one time cost of 5,000xp that can be avoided with shadow evocation.

Whether such a shadow miracle can happen however, is up to the deity or the power you believe in. If its a deity then its dubious if he'll allow you to create an army of simulacrums because deities have restrictions too, but if its an uncontrolled ideal like War, Creation, Evil, etc. then there really is nothing stopping you.

Although the RAW states that outsiders can also be brought back to life with limited wish, Limited wish's power is obviously limited to that of raise dead. Claiming the effects would be like resurrection is pushing it and I personally will say no since resurrection is a level 7 spell.

If anyone knows of an example where True Resurrection succeeds but Miracle does not, please post, because this will contradict what I just said.

[Gildedragon]

I just realized something. What's stopping me from casting miracle normally?

I guess the only advantage of this shadow thing is like someonenoone11 said, to bypass worshiping a deity, or avoid the 5,000xp cost for greater effects.

Forbidden school: Evocation probably

[ILM]

I just realized something. What's stopping me from casting miracle normally?
Nothing, but the DM decides every time whether it works or not.

[gogogome]

Nothing, but the DM decides every time whether it works or not.

Pretty sure RAW says it does everything listed in the description without DM approval. Something about wish being used as a spell described when DMs are not capable of DMing greater wishes, which should extend to miracle as well.

[ILM]

Pretty sure RAW says it does everything listed in the description without DM approval. Something about wish being used as a spell described when DMs are not capable of DMing greater wishes, which should extend to miracle as well.
Pretty sure you should check the RAW:

You don't so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede. The DM then determines the particular effect of the miracle.
That's before the part about big miracles/small miracles.