Dragon PCs?

[Dusk Raven]

So, I'm currently planning a world where, rather than humanoids, dragons are dominant, ruling over entire nations and playing their games of war and politics. While it'd be interesting enough to play as humans in such a setting, I wonder - what if the player characters are dragons?

To use D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder as an example, I'd imagine the PCs would probably be juveniles or young adults - old enough to be a force in the world while young enough so they aren't too big. The Draconomicon has, I believe, rules for playing as dragons, but I was wondering if anyone had other ideas as to how to have a dragon party, or similar suggestions for such a dracocentric campaign.

[Morof Stonehands]

Dragon Magazine #320 and #332 have dragon classes, 1-20, for the metallic and chromatic dragons, respectively.

There are also a lot of different true dragons, and dragon type monsters that you may be able to have in place of regular creatures, i.e. there are no cats, only pseudodragons. No horses, rather, drakkensteeds.

[Willie the Duck]

First suggestion -- while the ECL system does a fairly decent job of comparing different dragons, and a dragon of ECL X plus 2 levels of one of the classes listed in the draconomicon is roughly equal to a dragon of ECL X+2, the ECL system breaks down pretty thoroughly when comparing dragons to non-dragons. Likewise, if you start mixing and matching dragon classes/HD and normal humanoid classes, you will have power level spaghetti. So my suggestion is to decidedly play-test each dragon type/age that people want to play and see if the characters are on some level of parity.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, here's the thing - dragons are vastly over-priced in terms of ECL. When comparing a dragon to a PC of the same ECL, the PC will always win. Consider:



Juvenile Black Dragon
13 HD + 4 LA
Darkness as an SLA, no other spellcasting ability
Juvenile dragon's body
6d4 breath weapon every 1d4 rounds


Human Wizard
17 levels in wizard
9th level spells
Can turn into a juvenile dragon using polymorph, a 4th level spell
9d4 fiery burst at will



Given the choice, few people would choose the dragon, because being the dragon is just one of many class features for the wizard. The optimal way to play a dragon is to pick a wyrmling with the lowest LA (Steel dragons or Mercury dragons, I believe) and take regular class levels from then on.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would suggest playing a gestalt game, as per the Unearthed Arcana variant rules, using a dragon monster progression on one side, and a regular class on the other.

[Flickerdart]

I would suggest playing a gestalt game, as per the Unearthed Arcana variant rules, using a dragon monster progression on one side, and a regular class on the other.

This sort of hoses non-casting classes, since dragon BAB, HD, and skills are incredibly good. There's less reason not to take low-skill, low-HD, low-BAB classes. If you do this, I would recommend removing the qualities of dragon HD from the equation - you always have the chassis of your class.

[Dusk Raven]

I don't particularly care for Gestalt rules. While interesting, having played in a Gestalt campaign I find it becomes quite complicated. Not to mention I feel it encourages taking diametrically opposed classes rather than similarly-themed classes.

Anyway, if I were to introduce classes, I'd probably have the dragons earn experience and gain class levels like humanoids, though their XP gain is likely reduced a fair bit. The way I reason, dragons normally advance through hit dice, but it's not always practical in a campaign to wait a hundred years or so to age, so I feel they should be able to gain experience through their adventures, so the players can have a sense of character progression. The XP requirements might be mitigated, though, if I reduce some of the benefits of leveling up. I was going to suggest hit dice, BAB, and skill points but leaving class features intact, but that has the same effect as the pitfall of the Gestalt suggestion. Of course, leaving as-is doesn't seem right, since a d10 hit die isn't much more of an advantage over a d4 if you have, say, 10d12 hit dice to begin with.

I saw someone run a campaign for dragons and humanoids both using some homebrew rules for creating dragons, I should look into that, see how viable it'd be...

[AnachroNinja]

Wait, so you want to run a campaign where not only do the players get stuck with under powered dragon PC's, but they actually get penalized with lower XP and less benefits for the class levels that they should be able to take normally anyway? Yeah.... Run players... Run

[Ruethgar]

Hatchling dragons have 0 ECL with no need to advance to Wyrmling and games with them can go pretty much like every other ECL 0 race game. Awakened Dragonblooded Lizards can substitute for dragons, with the 0 ECL and fewer options they won't be nearly as magically potent nor be able to have automatic sorcerer thralls by virtue of their race(see dragonpacts). Kobolds are another alternative to a full fledged dragon and have a wealth of options laid out for them. If Spheres of Power is in play, you could just play a shapeshifter of any race and pick a Dragon as your one common form.

[DaOldeWolf]

If you would allow third party material, there is the taninim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/rite-publishing/dragon-taninim) race.

[nedz]

If you consider the effects of the Dragonocracy on the non-dragons then several interesting changes are possible. The aristocracy of these races would likely be half-dragons or at least Dragonblooded.

There are several options for the politics of such a world - how do you want this this to work ?

You probably have to move away from the standard Chromatic v Metallic = Evil v Good paradyme or you would just have endless war. Maybe consider something like Xorvintal (MM5) ?


Wait, so you want to run a campaign where not only do the players get stuck with under powered dragon PC's, but they actually get penalized with lower XP and less benefits for the class levels that they should be able to take normally anyway? Yeah.... Run players... Run

Such a game would be very different to the normal D&D experience and so this shouldn't matter too much. If all the PCs are Dragons then there is no problem here.

[Dusk Raven]

Wait, so you want to run a campaign where not only do the players get stuck with under powered dragon PC's, but they actually get penalized with lower XP and less benefits for the class levels that they should be able to take normally anyway? Yeah.... Run players... Run

And your suggestion as to what to do differently is...?

Main response I have is: Underpowered compared to who? PCs of the same hit dice? Well yeah, but who cares? I'm not going to be sending a Juvenile Black Dragon/Barbarian 5 up against a level 18 adventuring party, I'll be sending them up against a level 9 party if that. I do intend to properly gauge the PCs' strength, and since dragons do have their strengths, I expect the PCs to use them.


Such a game would be very different to the normal D&D experience and so this shouldn't matter too much. If all the PCs are Dragons then there is no problem here.

This. Reduced XP gain, if in effect (I'm really generous with level-ups), won't matter because everyone will still be progressing at the same rate, and I match the strength of the encounters to the party, not the other way around.

...Ahem. My apologies, got carried away a bit.


If you consider the effects of the Dragonocracy on the non-dragons then several interesting changes are possible. The aristocracy of these races would likely be half-dragons or at least Dragonblooded.

There are several options for the politics of such a world - how do you want this this to work ?

You probably have to move away from the standard Chromatic v Metallic = Evil v Good paradyme or you would just have endless war. Maybe consider something like Xorvintal (MM5) ?

I actually did some brainstorming on that subject a while back in this thread, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?471929-I-for-one-welcome-our-new-dragon-overlords!&p=20187531) though it's a bit old, and I should post in it sometime with some updates. Suffice to say, Chromatic and Metallic dragons aren't good and evil, but they do differ in their beliefs regarding humanoids having power. Otherwise, it's hard to tell what's real about the other side through the propaganda, and it may just be that they fight not because of their differences but because they've been fighting for a long time. Of course, there are always many other dragon types...

[Silva Stormrage]

Surprised this hasn't come up yet: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-(WIP)

Might have some useful information. If I was you I would do something along the lines of giving them the stats of dragons (Juvenile or whatever age you want to start at) and replace all the racial HD with class levels and let them level up from there. Keep the stats and the special abilities. They will be stronger than normal PC's of that level so up the encounters appropriately but it shouldn't impact anything too much since everyone gets that power boost.

[ExLibrisMortis]

This sort of hoses non-casting classes, since dragon BAB, HD, and skills are incredibly good. There's less reason not to take low-skill, low-HD, low-BAB classes. If you do this, I would recommend removing the qualities of dragon HD from the equation - you always have the chassis of your class.
I don't think that's a problem here - non-casting classes were already hosed, and the same problem occurs in every gestalt game; warblades get nothing out of gestalting with fighter, and so on. If you want to fix caster/martial disparity, this is not the place to do it.

In addition, playing juvenile or young adult dragons completely hoses a lot of builds, too; that's just part of playing a high-ECL dragon: your stats are not primarily class-based, and are going to be really similar between PCs (everybody will have 10 dex).

I think that, provided that you pick the right dragon for your build, you can go either way: a meaty powerhouse to shore up your wizardly chassis, or a spellhoarding steel loredrake to buff your warblade. That's going to be the interesting part of the build. If you don't gestalt, but still insist on playing plain dragons at full ECL, there won't even be anything to build.

[Kaerou]

In The Company of Dragons has rules for playing dragons (pathfinder / D&D 5e versions are available)

The pathfinder version is quite usable. The 5e version.. isn't great.

[Sword-Geass]

Surprised this hasn't come up yet: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-(WIP)


I came to post that same link, but Stormrage won me at that.

Also, you may consider cutting off the LA of the lowest LA dragon your party picks from everyones LA, as their power level will still be relative to each other but you'll end speding up the level ups which bring the advance feeling you are looking for. Also, consider giving them an age category advance every time they have suficient HD for it, even if they don't have the true age for it, probably justify it with something similar to the Dragon Totems of Dragonlance, but not necesarily in that way.

Also, choosing standard class levels in replacement of dragon HD was another good sugestion from Stormrage, just remember to let those count toward as dragon HD for age advancement.

[Magesmiley]

If you're up for some conversion work, you might try digging up a copy of the Council of Wyrms from 2nd edition.

[Esprit15]

My DM runs a dragon based campaign, so maybe I can contribute something in the way of advice and bare mechanics.

Standardize dragons. Having gold, silver, and red being the dominant types is great in other worlds, but here it makes for weirdness. Treat dragon types as a class - whites get the worst flying but gain all other movement types and a cold cone breath weapon, silvers have the best flight but no other movements, and a similar breath weapon.

Tie size, natural armor, breath dice, and maybe casting, to something other than type. We tied it to appropriate stats. At the beginning, we chose which stats would progress at what rate (DEX stayed the same, since we weren't messing with things like Yellow Dragons). For example, higher strength dragons grew faster, higher constitution dragons had stronger natural armor, higher intelligence had faster casting progression (though not always save DC), higher wisdom had better spell resistance, and higher charisma had a higher breath weapon die (though not necessarily a higher DC).

Aging was set to every three hit dice. In addition, we built the dragon prestige classes in Draconomicon into the natural aging progression of dragons, rather than making them different classes.

One difference is that we don't take levels in classes, but that's something you could take or leave, depending on the time scale of your game.

[Dusk Raven]

So, I've acquired the 3rd-party Pathfinder book In The Company of Dragons, and also found a 3.5 conversion of Council of Wyrms.

Thus far, they're both interesting, but ItCoD focuses on making their dragons balanced with players - and as such introuduces a sort of demi-dragon, albeit one that can use equipment more easily than other dragons - while Council of Wyrms is all about an all-dragon party, so if I go with the d20 system I'll go with that. One thing is clear to me, though - if I do use Pathfinder, then I'll likely have to come up with some sort of alternate method of dragon aging, since it'd be boring if the PCs stayed at one age category the whole time.

Of course, I've also cast my net a bit farther in search of a suitable system, and while I'm not too familiar with the system, I know enough about Mutants and Masterminds to believe it to be worth looking into...

[atemu1234]

Use Pathfinder's rules for monsters as PCs, as opposed to LA. LA on dragons is a massive drawback.

[Zancloufer]

Use Pathfinder's rules for monsters as PCs, as opposed to LA. LA on dragons is a massive drawback.

I would second this. Most smaller dragons (ones with>10HD) are the only ones with LA and their ECL tends to be VERY high. Pathfinder uses CR=ECL for monster PCs and it is a lot more balanced. Mind you in that case they would have 1-5 more HD than ECL, but pre-spellcasting most True Dragons are little more than Barbarians who trade class features and weapon/armour proficiency for skill points and saving throws. The only Epic feat that is truly broken requires CL 21 and 9th level spells and I doubt they'd qualify for it before actually hitting epic levels.

Though if LA buy-off is on the table I would say that from the SRD alone Tiny Brass dragons are fairly playable. 60ft movement, 30ft burrow 150ft good flight +2 Con, and a Breath Weapon (which is sleep OR fire)? Otherwise if you tried enforcing LA and full Racial HD you will end up with some fairly underpowered PCs. Remember: While Dragon are considered "Boss" monsters they do have around twice the levels that they have CR.