Does This Combo (ABP + Mythic Tiers) Make a Magic Item-Scarce Campaign Work?

[Pyromancer999]

So, I dislike running games where everyone has to be decked out with magic items. I have had some success in this in running games with Automatic Bonus Progression (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/magic/automaticBonusProgression.html), with the modification that one can switch the order in which mental/physical bonuses are received, which allows for martials to receive their physical bonuses then their mental bonuses, as opposed to the normal order, and allowing casters to swap out the weapon enhancement bonus for the effects of metamagic rods, available in any combination, although the total metamagic adjustment of the metamagic feats cannot be greater than the total weapon enhancement bonus a normal character would have at that level and no individual rod may grant the effects of a metamagic feat that is greater than 1/2 the total max level adjustment(minimum 1). I've also ruled that weapon/armor enhancement bonuses apply to any weapon/armor used(except shields), do not need attuning, and are not diminished by a weapon's special enchantments(ex. Keen, Vorpal, etc.).

This has definitely cut down on the clutter. However, once gameplay starts to gets past the first half of the game(11th and onwards), I have noticed that, while still able to deal with threats, encounters for the parties I've run with few to no magic items seem to have a lot more difficulty than those with the normal amount. People have told me this is due to magic items providing ~1/2 of the power/versatility for characters of that level. While I don't object to things like commonly used potions, scrolls, and similar dungeon staples, and a few special/wondrous items besides, heroes having too many items clashes with a lot of fantasy literature I've read, as well as my own personal sense of the genre.

So, I have noticed Mythic Adventures (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/mythicAdventures/mythicHeroes.html) seems to provide more inherent abilities, as well as a decent power boost. While going full Mythic Tier 10 in my games may be a bit much, adding at least a few Mythic Tiers seems like it'd be a good power boost for my games. It also helps a friend of mine has a copy of a third party supplement(Mythic Heroes Handbook) that seems to have good balance and would greatly expand options for this sort of play. Hence, I was thinking of using Mythic Tiers as a replacement for magic items. Would this work?

tl;dr: Want to run a campaign with few magic items, but am worried about PCs not keeping up with level-appropriate encounters. I've tried Automatic Bonus Progression, but need something more. Would adding in Mythic Tiers do the trick?

[Eitan]

While I haven't played with ABP, I have finished an entire Wrath of the Righteous campaign going from 1-20 and tier 1-10. I was playing a Sorcerer Archmage but watching my group play through Mythic was... interesting. I think the best advice I can give for what you want is that Mythic Tiers might work, but do not go higher than tier 3, a lot of really powerful stuff opens up at Tier 3, and going higher than just one of those Path Abilities can very quickly destabilize your game. Just being Mythic will make your players in a different class of power from the rest of the world if they in any way consider optimization. Even if they don't, fairly obvious choices like Mythic Power Attack or Wild Arcana add significant power to just about any build.

[Pyromancer999]

While I haven't played with ABP, I have finished an entire Wrath of the Righteous campaign going from 1-20 and tier 1-10. I was playing a Sorcerer Archmage but watching my group play through Mythic was... interesting. I think the best advice I can give for what you want is that Mythic Tiers might work, but do not go higher than tier 3, a lot of really powerful stuff opens up at Tier 3, and going higher than just one of those Path Abilities can very quickly destabilize your game. Just being Mythic will make your players in a different class of power from the rest of the world if they in any way consider optimization. Even if they don't, fairly obvious choices like Mythic Power Attack or Wild Arcana add significant power to just about any build.

I'm aware it's a power jump. What I'm wondering is if the addition of Mythic tiers is enough to compensate for the power/versatility lost from the lack of magic items.

[Psyren]

How do you define "few magic items?" 50% WBL? 25%?

Your best bet is probably to just try it for yourself and tweak as necessary. Despite Unchained and Mythic having been out for awhile, it's unlikely such a specific combo of two variants has been widely attempted.

I would also suggest asking on a more PF-focused board like Paizo or the Pathfinder Subreddit, which would increase your chances that someone has given this combo a spin.

[Pyromancer999]

How do you define "few magic items?" 50% WBL? 25%?


Few magic items usually refers to 1-4 magic items(aside from weapons and armor and other standard issue gear, detailed below), depending on level. If one were to put it into WBL, although several items are custom(although more are normal items from the SRD), approximately 15-20% WBL, depending on level and campaign. Highest I've ever had for a player seems to be roughly 25%. This is if you include weapon and armor enhancements, as well as a Cure wand per adventure, a potion or two every other adventure or so, and the rare scroll. If one removes those standard issue things, the items in total tend to be around 5-10% WBL, 15% WBL tops.



Your best bet is probably to just try it for yourself and tweak as necessary. Despite Unchained and Mythic having been out for awhile, it's unlikely such a specific combo of two variants has been widely attempted.

I would also suggest asking on a more PF-focused board like Paizo or the Pathfinder Subreddit, which would increase your chances that someone has given this combo a spin.

Both good ideas. Thank you for the suggestions.

[Psyren]

Few magic items usually refers to 1-4 magic items(aside from weapons and armor and other standard issue gear, detailed below), depending on level. If one were to put it into WBL, although several items are custom(although more are normal items from the SRD), approximately 15-20% WBL, depending on level and campaign. Highest I've ever had for a player seems to be roughly 25%. This is if you include weapon and armor enhancements, as well as a Cure wand per adventure, a potion or two every other adventure or so, and the rare scroll. If one removes those standard issue things, the items in total tend to be around 5-10% WBL, 15% WBL tops.

This is your main problem - ABP assumes you only cut wealth by 50%. If you plan on cutting out more than that, you need to strengthen the bonuses to compensate, or boost lower-tier classes that rely on WBL more, or both.

[Nashira]

This is your main problem - ABP assumes you only cut wealth by 50%. If you plan on cutting out more than that, you need to strengthen the bonuses to compensate, or boost lower-tier classes that rely on WBL more, or both.

This. Honestly with Mythic though, and someone more familiar than I with the system may correct me, it is more of just a massive power boost by the numbers. Magic items, after armor and weapon enchantments, I find tend to be more about adding versatility ass functionality to a character rather than raw number boosts, which is what I seem to see mostly coming from Mythic.

[Florian]

Practically speaking, the ABP covers around 50% WBL and aims to remove the need for the "big six", freeing up item slots for more interesting items that are useful and fun but never as good as the big six would be. What it doesn´t touch are staying power (pearls of power, staves...) or utility. Those can´t be replaced by just adjusting the numbers or giving higher boni as they´re pretty unique.

Using Mythic Path abilities and feats will add to raw power by increasing regular boni, but, again, it does nothing to add to utility, flexibility or staying power.

Combining both will lead to a situation where a character has good core functionality but can´t really contribute outside of that. This will deepen the divide between casters and mundanes even more, especially once Mythic Points are spent.

Drastically reducing the number of magic items in play can be done but needs some work and fine-tuning.

I´d start with giving each character the Implements, Focus Power and Mental Focus class feature of the Occultist (Occult Adventures p.46), only useable to "bind" with a Scaling Item (Pathfinder Unchained p.190). Look at the Psychometrist Vigilante Archetype (Ultimate Intrigue p.59) on how this can be done.
Peruse the older "Weapons of Legacy" for additional inspiration.

The older "Magic Item Companion" has rules and examples for creating magic item sets. These can be used to add the otherwise missing flexibility and utility powers at the appropriate level and should be tied into the Mental Focus mechanics.

At levels 5, 10 and 15, give each character an item mastery feat (Weapon Master´s Handbook p. 26) as a bonus feat, choice restricted to one of the "bound" scaling items, disregarding the spell school and level for the Implement school.

Combining that with ABP should cover roughly 80% WBL and remove the need for anything beyond consumables and very specific wondrous items.

Using this will have some rather drastic effects on gameplay, tho.
First, theme and mood for the build has to be established early on, creating a very fixed and complex build that leaves no real space for "organic growth" of a character.

Second, characters will wield some rather atypical powers. For some players, that can lead to a break in verisimilitude which will in turn lead to making suboptimal choices to counter that.
(A Fighter could learn to throw fireballs at 5th levels. That´s not a typical activity for Fighters, tho)

Third, there´s a shift in power. Going this route will upgrade the offensive capabilities of 1st, 2nd and 5th level beyond what is normally possible without going to deep into TO territory. This will, in turn, lead to some fine-tuning of CR for all levels up to and including 7th. Afterwards, things are fine and can be used as usual.

[Pyromancer999]

This is your main problem - ABP assumes you only cut wealth by 50%. If you plan on cutting out more than that, you need to strengthen the bonuses to compensate, or boost lower-tier classes that rely on WBL more, or both.

I am aware of this, although the reason why it's only recently become a problem is that until recently, the games I ran were of low to mid-level games. I've also made sure that the classes who need it get equipment they need that's part of the higher range of WBL in my games. As previously stated, I know I need to strengthen the characters to compensate, hence why I'm looking into Mythic.


This. Honestly with Mythic though, and someone more familiar than I with the system may correct me, it is more of just a massive power boost by the numbers. Magic items, after armor and weapon enchantments, I find tend to be more about adding versatility ass functionality to a character rather than raw number boosts, which is what I seem to see mostly coming from Mythic.

I've found a fair number of Path abilities, especially in the 3rd party supplement mentioned, that add versatility, more worried about if they are too few in number/if the power level for Mythic on the whole is right.


Practically speaking, the ABP covers around 50% WBL and aims to remove the need for the "big six", freeing up item slots for more interesting items that are useful and fun but never as good as the big six would be. What it doesn´t touch are staying power (pearls of power, staves...) or utility. Those can´t be replaced by just adjusting the numbers or giving higher boni as they´re pretty unique.

Using Mythic Path abilities and feats will add to raw power by increasing regular boni, but, again, it does nothing to add to utility, flexibility or staying power.

Combining both will lead to a situation where a character has good core functionality but can´t really contribute outside of that. This will deepen the divide between casters and mundanes even more, especially once Mythic Points are spent.

Drastically reducing the number of magic items in play can be done but needs some work and fine-tuning.

I´d start with giving each character the Implements, Focus Power and Mental Focus class feature of the Occultist (Occult Adventures p.46), only useable to "bind" with a Scaling Item (Pathfinder Unchained p.190). Look at the Psychometrist Vigilante Archetype (Ultimate Intrigue p.59) on how this can be done.
Peruse the older "Weapons of Legacy" for additional inspiration.

The older "Magic Item Companion" has rules and examples for creating magic item sets. These can be used to add the otherwise missing flexibility and utility powers at the appropriate level and should be tied into the Mental Focus mechanics.

At levels 5, 10 and 15, give each character an item mastery feat (Weapon Master´s Handbook p. 26) as a bonus feat, choice restricted to one of the "bound" scaling items, disregarding the spell school and level for the Implement school.

Combining that with ABP should cover roughly 80% WBL and remove the need for anything beyond consumables and very specific wondrous items.

Using this will have some rather drastic effects on gameplay, tho.
First, theme and mood for the build has to be established early on, creating a very fixed and complex build that leaves no real space for "organic growth" of a character.

Second, characters will wield some rather atypical powers. For some players, that can lead to a break in verisimilitude which will in turn lead to making suboptimal choices to counter that.
(A Fighter could learn to throw fireballs at 5th levels. That´s not a typical activity for Fighters, tho)

Third, there´s a shift in power. Going this route will upgrade the offensive capabilities of 1st, 2nd and 5th level beyond what is normally possible without going to deep into TO territory. This will, in turn, lead to some fine-tuning of CR for all levels up to and including 7th. Afterwards, things are fine and can be used as usual.


First suggestion is a no, as it devalues the Occultist, although scaling weapons aren't necessarily a bad idea.

Second thing is kind of what I've been doing all along, with custom, atypical powers.

Third is undefined.

[Florian]

Some classes only function if full WBL is taken into account. You change WBL, you´ve got to take a critical look at those classes, too. Occultist and item-based archetypes for other classes count amongst these and they cease working once you begin changing things. There´s no way around that.

[Pyromancer999]

Some classes only function if full WBL is taken into account. You change WBL, you´ve got to take a critical look at those classes, too.

Yes, I realize that severely reducing WBL does impact classes. However, whether due to chance or perhaps just my style of play, until I started to move into higher level adventures, there was no issue with this. I realize this does impact how some classes perform, hence why I'm looking for alternatives. Like Mythic.



Occultist and item-based archetypes for other classes count amongst these and they cease working once you begin changing things. There´s no way around that.

The Occultist's class features are based on implements, which are like magic items, yes. I've had little issue with those, especially since a lot of the other features which are item-specific are usually replaced by an archetype, or minimally adjusted to still be useful, as was the case in the one vanilla occultist I've had(Granted, this is out of three Occultists in total that I've had). Similar things would apply to a Relic Hunter Inquisitor or Psychometrist Vigilante. In this case, their implements are more special due to the scarcity of magic items in the settings, which the Occultists have liked(I've never had an Inquisitor or Vigilante in my games yet, nevermind of those archetypes, so I cannot speak for how much those players would like that).

As for item-based archetypes, if you're talking about archetypes that revolve around UMD and/or magic item usage, I've never had those taken in my games. Such archetypes do not make much sense to take mechanically or fluff-wise, as magic items aren't a terribly big part of the campaign, which also limits their practical usage.