What does it takes to become a godless Cleric?

[Conradine]

Ordinary Clerics are either chosen ( by dream, premonition, sign ecc. ) by their deities or accepted by them ( when someone undergoes the regimen of study and service to become a member of the clergy ).

But how about those Clerics that draw power from abstract concepts and ideals?

Some option I thought:

1) Some could be member of an already-existing organization, quite similar to an ordinary temple, and taught the ways of their philosophy much like an ordinary cleric would.

2) Some could be ex Clerics of a deity that, for a reason or another decide or are forced to change the source of their power.

3) Mabye could a would-be Cleric with access to enough knowledge sources ( like a temple library ) design his own philosphy?


Last but important question: since points in Knowledge - religion are not a strict requirement, could someone become a godless cleric simply "believing" strongly in a concept or ideal?

Also, since there is no deities approval involved, that means that virtually everyone could become a godless Cleric if they genuinely believed in an idea?

[Werephilosopher]

I feel like a godless cleric couldn't just believe in their ideals strongly, they'd have to live them and promote them, just as a godly cleric would. I also feel a godless cleric's faith and devotion would need to be stronger than that of the average cleric in order to gain the divine energy needed to cast spells, since they don't have a deity to channel it into them when offered a few prayers.

[Clistenes]

Well, the canon examples I know about are the Academy from Deities & Demigods, and the Planar Churches of Spelljammer.

The first example is a school of philosophy that believes in a theoretical (but probably non-existant) supreme deity of Good, Truth and Beauty. They believe in it so hard that they get spells. The process to join is quite straightforward: You are recruited, indoctrinated, and if you have enough faith, you can become a cleric.

The second example are people who worships an Outer Plane as a whole, with all its gods and all its Exemplars and all its Petitioners. They probably don't get their spells from the gods themselves, but from their faith. They behave quite like a regular church, with its hierarchy, priesthood and the like...

[Yogibear41]

Ask your DM. Everything differs according to the game you are in. In the game I play in godless Clerics do not exist.

Granted we default back to 1st edition rules on some things, so technically a "false" cleric with no deity could still cast 1st and 2nd level spells if he had the proper training, but couldn't cast any magic higher than that without getting his power from somewhere.

[PacMan2247]

I feel like a godless cleric couldn't just believe in their ideals strongly, they'd have to live them and promote them, just as a godly cleric would. I also feel a godless cleric's faith and devotion would need to be stronger than that of the average cleric in order to gain the divine energy needed to cast spells, since they don't have a deity to channel it into them when offered a few prayers.

This. A cleric following and promoting an ideal rather than a deity is still drawing the attention-both positive and negative- of the gods. The gods have their own agendas, and they're going to support those who further their agenda. Maintaining their power base is a part of that, but time spent focusing their attention on shows of power to gain believers is time not spent working toward their goals.

[Xuldarinar]

Would an Athar Cleric count?

[Clistenes]

Would an Athar Cleric count?

Wasn't it implied that the Athar divine spellcasters were unknowingly drawing their power from the remains of Aoskar?

[Florian]

First, it would take a disconnect between "the Divine" and "the Deities".
Second, it would take the situation that a cleric, to that point beholden to a deity, would feel that sticking to that deity would limit their personal growth.

[Xalestra]

I thought clerics could also believe in an ideal. The frame work for a godless cleric should be there!

[tadkins]

I thought clerics could also believe in an ideal. The frame work for a godless cleric should be there!

Based off the time I've spent on these forums and in some games, the view on that seems to be divided.

Some believe that ideal clerics are fine, others believe they're stupid and munchkin-y. Some of the more powerful (or just different) domain combo choices require being a godless cleric since no deities exist with them. I've posted on these forums a couple times about certain character concepts that require the ideal cleric chassis, but holding on the gods themselves.

It all depends on the DM I suppose.

One simpler example off the top of my head; a non-evil Cleric of Darkness. All the gods with the Darkness domain that I've looked up are Evil.

[Sword-Geass]

Well beside a lenient DM, or an iron-strong roleplay, a godless Cleric would require living to their ideal to the point of being it's embodiment. Not only one of the strongest beliefs, but living under it, and maybe promoting it, but not as much as a normal Cleric promotes his faith, I believe the ideal Cleric to be more introspective than anything else, after all, it's your belief.

Also, it seems to be that in general Ideal Clerics are seen as having a strongest faith than normal Clerics, as something as a God is certainly more tangible than an ideal, and to receive spells by just pure will, your will better be strong.

Another thing that crossed my mind, we have a kind of godless Cleric right there in the PHB... the Druid, a person so atuned to something which he lives that he gets to cast spells (this isn't saying that they are actual ideal Clerics, just that they are a good comparison point).

[KillingAScarab]

I thought clerics could also believe in an ideal. The frame work for a godless cleric should be there!Yep. Nothing preventing you from making a cleric who doesn't worship a deity, other than a DM who forbids it for some reason. You don't need a deity to draw divine power unless its is part of the setting, or druids, spirit shamans and shugenja wouln't work. If you go back far enough in the history of the game, you'll find druids were actually a specific example of a variant cleric.

Favored soul, however, strikes me as a class which needs deities.

[Spore]

This depends heavily on the setting and - of course - the DM in question. In Eberron it would suffice to strongly believe in a given concept. In Faerun, where every agnostic character still needs a god written in his sheet or is defaulted to a boring standard afterlife, I feel you can believe in a concept but ultimatively still receive your magic from the deity closest to your personal beliefs.

[KillingAScarab]

This depends heavily on the setting and - of course - the DM in question. In Eberron it would suffice to strongly believe in a given concept. In Faerun, where every agnostic character still needs a god written in his sheet or is defaulted to a boring standard afterlife, I feel you can believe in a concept but ultimatively still receive your magic from the deity closest to your personal beliefs.Forgotten Realms also has two other things going for it. First, after the Time of Troubles deities' power is tied to their worship. Second, FR is lousy with deities. There is a list of 32 patron deities for druids and rangers to chose from on page 90 of Faiths and Pantheons. This also happens to be the same page which suggests clerics of Akadi spend their time making mechanical wings for housecats.

[Spore]

This also happens to be the same page which suggests clerics of Akadi spend their time making mechanical wings for housecats.

This is an entirely valid hobby and don't let others tell you anything else.

[KillingAScarab]

This is an entirely valid hobby and don't let others tell you anything else.Oh, I realize it. I think it also illustrates, while Forgotten Realms can have clerics like Adon who are non-stop obsessed with their deity/deitiy's portfolio, clerics can still have personal pursuits. I don't see why a cleric of a cause couldn't also be multifaceted.

[Clistenes]

Well, the canon examples I know about are the Academy from Deities & Demigods, and the Planar Churches of Spelljammer.

The first example is a school of philosophy that believes in a theoretical (but probably non-existant) supreme deity of Good, Truth and Beauty. They believe in it so hard that they get spells. The process to join is quite straightforward: You are recruited, indoctrinated, and if you have enough faith, you can become a cleric.

The second example are people who worships an Outer Plane as a whole, with all its gods and all its Exemplars and all its Petitioners. They probably don't get their spells from the gods themselves, but from their faith. They behave quite like a regular church, with its hierarchy, priesthood and the like...

Another example of godless clerics: The Priests of Peace in Bralspace/Casaspace, in Spelljammer. They literally worship peace, and have so much faith that they get spells. They are another organized church that recruits, indoctrinates and train clerics pretty much like regular churches do.

[Conradine]

In your opinion, faith obtained due mind manipulation ( repeated Suggestions, Hypnosis, Charm ecc. ) could still be the basis for obtaining Cleric levels?

[Telonius]

In your opinion, faith obtained due mind manipulation ( repeated Suggestions, Hypnosis, Charm ecc. ) could still be the basis for obtaining Cleric levels?

Faith obtained due to mundane manipulation (guilt, indoctrination from a young age, societal roles and expectations) seems able to lead to spellcasting. I don't see why adding magic to the mix would prevent it.

[Rangô]

One simpler example off the top of my head; a non-evil Cleric of Darkness. All the gods with the Darkness domain that I've looked up are Evil.

Mask from Faerun is CN deity and has that domain I guess

[Asmotherion]

Ordinary Clerics are either chosen ( by dream, premonition, sign ecc. ) by their deities or accepted by them ( when someone undergoes the regimen of study and service to become a member of the clergy ).

But how about those Clerics that draw power from abstract concepts and ideals?

Some option I thought:

1) Some could be member of an already-existing organization, quite similar to an ordinary temple, and taught the ways of their philosophy much like an ordinary cleric would.

2) Some could be ex Clerics of a deity that, for a reason or another decide or are forced to change the source of their power.

3) Mabye could a would-be Cleric with access to enough knowledge sources ( like a temple library ) design his own philosphy?


Last but important question: since points in Knowledge - religion are not a strict requirement, could someone become a godless cleric simply "believing" strongly in a concept or ideal?

Also, since there is no deities approval involved, that means that virtually everyone could become a godless Cleric if they genuinely believed in an idea?

Ι think this is a close concept to the Druid actually. Worshiping nature over a god/dess of nature.

You could work it like this: the cleric choses his portofolio and then, one deity of that portofolio that is the closest to the cleric's alignment works the divine magic. It will need a stong bond to work it this way though. For example, let's play a cleric of the Sun domain. He belives that light is divine, as in it's presence, the good feel it's safety wile the weaked shy away. His devotion to this concept might give him a self aquired bond over this theory; to bring daylight into the underdark. His whole point for adventuring might revolve around this goal, as to:

A) gain followers for this belief
B) find people to start a crusade over said dream
C) make the residence of the underdark "see the light" and understand the error of their ways.

In the meanwile, Horus Re in the realm of the gods gains more power being worshiped undirectly, thus recognises this clerics influencing ability and grands him powers. Perhaps he will try to convince him to worship him in his right name, or perhaps will find this obsolate and not care as it gets the job done.

Otherwise, there is the concept of dark sun.

Finally you could refluff the concept as "the divine magic is a lattened potential in all beings and thru special rituals and preyers to a higher self one can learn to harness that potential" wich could be the concept of a eastern monastery or a solo phylosophy. Whatever floats your boat really.

[tadkins]

Mask from Faerun is CN deity and has that domain I guess

Interesting. I thought he was NE.

[KillingAScarab]

Mask from Faerun is CN deity and has that domain I guess


Interesting. I thought he was NE.Mask is neutral evil in 3.X and earlier. Mask is chaotic neutral in 5th edition (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mask).

[Red Fel]

Ordinary Clerics are either chosen ( by dream, premonition, sign ecc. ) by their deities or accepted by them ( when someone undergoes the regimen of study and service to become a member of the clergy ).

I'm going to take issue with the phrasing of the question. Source?

Seriously, this is all assumption. We are being asked to assume that Clerics are either chosen by deities or trained. And while there is fluff to support the training (see e.g. Cloistered Cleric) I question whether these are the only two options. (In particular, "chosen by deity" more matches Favored Soul than Cleric, in my book.)


Last but important question: since points in Knowledge - religion are not a strict requirement, could someone become a godless cleric simply "believing" strongly in a concept or ideal?

Basically. It's not simply believing, though; it's truly devoting oneself to the celebration and emulation of one's ideal. It means dedicating one's life with religious fervor, genuinely embracing the ideal.

It's not enough to just "believe." But that's the start, yeah.


Also, since there is no deities approval involved, that means that virtually everyone could become a godless Cleric if they genuinely believed in an idea?

Could. Again, belief is just the starting point. Lots of characters believe in a deity, but aren't Clerics and don't have any divine benefits. Believing is the starting point; truly engaging in worship and emulation is where one crosses over from "believer" to "embodiment of divine (or conceptual) will."

[Flickerdart]

Since the rules don't specify any difference between clerics of gods and clerics of ideals, we can just take the things clerics of gods do and do a little bit of find-replace.

What do we know about clerics of gods?


Clerics of gods maintain temples, altars, and churches dedicated to the god, and perform rites the god finds pleasing. At these holy places, they might also offer goods and services to those who have need of them.
Clerics of gods pray to a god, presumably for that god to do/not do the thing in their portfolio. For example, you might pray to Lathander to provide ample sunlight for your crops, or pray to Umberlee not to sink your ship. One might also pray to a deity for intercession on your behalf - asking Lathander to ask Umberlee to knock it off with the drowning people. Clerics of gods either do this privately, or together with a congregation.
Clerics of gods preach the tenets of that god, encouraging anyone who will listen to behave like the god wants them to behave, and strive to behave in such a way themselves. They train junior clerics in the faith and in spellcasting.
Clerics of gods perform quests for their deities.


But what exactly is a deity? A deity is basically an intelligence stapled to an ideal. A cleric of an ideal has to behave as that intelligence - either on his own, or united with other clerics of the faith into a council.

Therefore, this is what clerics of ideals should do.


Clerics of ideals maintain temples, altars, and churches dedicated to the ideal, and perform rites that elevate and ennoble the ideal. At these holy places, they might also offer goods and services to those who have need of them.
Clerics of ideals preach the tenets of that ideal, encouraging anyone who will listen to bring that ideal into their lives, and strive to behave in line with that ideal. They train junior clerics in the faith and in spellcasting.
Clerics of gods perform quests to further their ideal, as decided by themselves or their council.


The prayer thing doesn't really have a direct parallel. But I would say that in place of prayer, a cleric of an ideal can contemplate his ideal. He can perform acts that create more of the ideal, or make the ideal better. For example, a cleric of Hate would think about all the people that he hates, and seek to give in to his hatred in everything he does, as well as encourage others to become more hateful. Instead of praying for help and guidance, he asks himself - what would be the hateful thing to do?

[Honest Tiefling]

Ask your DM. Everything differs according to the game you are in. In the game I play in godless Clerics do not exist.

Quickest way to drive a DM to drink is to ignore the setting rules on gods. No matter how cool of an idea we come up with,

I admit, I do like the idea of a cleric worshiping several gods at once. Because why not? It would seem rather odd to worship a god and completely ignore their wife or bestie, now that I think about it.

As for the Darkness Domain, Trickery is rarely seen on evil deities, and travel is rarely seen on evil deities. It gets confusing when you have Tymora, a TRICKSTER DEITY not have the trickery domain for some reason.

[Gildedragon]

Ordinary Clerics are either chosen ( by dream, premonition, sign ecc. ) by their deities or accepted by them ( when someone undergoes the regimen of study and service to become a member of the clergy ).
This sounds more like favored souls, but if it is your setting fluff it is your setting fluff. I, personally never much cared for favored souls and find visions, true or not, to be good for straight clerics, and open the option to cast from Cha rather than wis.



Since the rules don't specify any difference between clerics of gods and clerics of ideals, we can just take the things clerics of gods do and do a little bit of find-replace.

What do we know about clerics of gods?


Clerics of gods maintain temples, altars, and churches dedicated to the god, and perform rites the god finds pleasing. At these holy places, they might also offer goods and services to those who have need of them.
Clerics of gods pray to a god, presumably for that god to do/not do the thing in their portfolio. For example, you might pray to Lathander to provide ample sunlight for your crops, or pray to Umberlee not to sink your ship. One might also pray to a deity for intercession on your behalf - asking Lathander to ask Umberlee to knock it off with the drowning people. Clerics of gods either do this privately, or together with a congregation.
Clerics of gods preach the tenets of that god, encouraging anyone who will listen to behave like the god wants them to behave, and strive to behave in such a way themselves. They train junior clerics in the faith and in spellcasting.
Clerics of gods perform quests for their deities.


But what exactly is a deity? A deity is basically an intelligence stapled to an ideal. A cleric of an ideal has to behave as that intelligence - either on his own, or united with other clerics of the faith into a council.

Therefore, this is what clerics of ideals should do.


Clerics of ideals maintain temples, altars, and churches dedicated to the ideal, and perform rites that elevate and ennoble the ideal. At these holy places, they might also offer goods and services to those who have need of them.
Clerics of ideals preach the tenets of that ideal, encouraging anyone who will listen to bring that ideal into their lives, and strive to behave in line with that ideal. They train junior clerics in the faith and in spellcasting.
Clerics of gods perform quests to further their ideal, as decided by themselves or their council.


The prayer thing doesn't really have a direct parallel. But I would say that in place of prayer, a cleric of an ideal can contemplate his ideal. He can perform acts that create more of the ideal, or make the ideal better. For example, a cleric of Hate would think about all the people that he hates, and seek to give in to his hatred in everything he does, as well as encourage others to become more hateful. Instead of praying for help and guidance, he asks himself - what would be the hateful thing to do?


I'm going to take issue with the phrasing of the question. Source?

Seriously, this is all assumption. We are being asked to assume that Clerics are either chosen by deities or trained. And while there is fluff to support the training (see e.g. Cloistered Cleric) I question whether these are the only two options. (In particular, "chosen by deity" more matches Favored Soul than Cleric, in my book.)



Basically. It's not simply believing, though; it's truly devoting oneself to the celebration and emulation of one's ideal. It means dedicating one's life with religious fervor, genuinely embracing the ideal.

It's not enough to just "believe." But that's the start, yeah.



Could. Again, belief is just the starting point. Lots of characters believe in a deity, but aren't Clerics and don't have any divine benefits. Believing is the starting point; truly engaging in worship and emulation is where one crosses over from "believer" to "embodiment of divine (or conceptual) will."

This, all of this
Belief is not enough
Faith is not enough
Either of these might get you to become a cleric (note the lower case) of the deity: ranks of profession (priest) and kn (religion) with some other class. True faith might even have you be an adept; but to be a Cleric (note the upper case), a real miracle worker, you need a powerful devotion to the deity or ideal, a transcendental belief in what you do and what you worship, far beyond "just believing". In part one can see this (mechanically) in the fact that clerics don't need the True Believer feat to activate relics of their deity; they are already true believers.

[tadkins]

Quickest way to drive a DM to drink is to ignore the setting rules on gods. No matter how cool of an idea we come up with,



That's the dilemma I run into a lot.

Got a lot of cool character concepts that could make use of the Cleric chassis. Just the sheer mechanics of it. I just don't want them to be worshipping gods. They just don't fit the concept of the character, and no deities exist with the domain combos I'd want to give them.

In the end though I have to scrap the ideas because no DMs I know will allow deity-less clerics.

[Rangô]

Mask is neutral evil in 3.X and earlier. Mask is chaotic neutral in 5th edition (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Mask).

Well... I was looking and I've got an answer: Thautam, TN dwarven god of magic and darkness, apparently he's blind. Also I'm sure that must be more out there.

[KillingAScarab]

One simpler example off the top of my head; a non-evil Cleric of Darkness. All the gods with the Darkness domain that I've looked up are Evil.Forgotten Realms has Shargaas in the orc pantheon, which is chaotic evil, but allows chaotic neutral clerics. The only other three FR deities which have darkness domain are Shar, Set in the Mulhorandi pantheon and Lolth in the drow pantheon, but as you point out, they don't allow non-evil clerics.


Well... I was looking and I've got an answer: Thautam, TN dwarven god of magic and darkness, apparently he's blind. Also I'm sure that must be more out there.Dang. Thautam is in Races of Stone and has magic and darkness in his portfolio, but the domains listed there are earth, luck and magic. Also, I just checked Races of the Wild and Lolth doesn't have the domain in that book, though its in her portfolio. I guess the lesson is that sources matter, but also this is getting annoying how uncommon the darkness domain is. It wasn't a core domain, so I guess that's a part of the problem. If we look at Pathfinder, they at least started with darkness as a domain. Here's the category of deities in Golarion with the darkness domain (www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Category:Darkness_domain_deities). Multiple members of the Osirian pantheon have the domain, including lawful neutral Thoth (http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Thoth).

[Conradine]

Seriously, this is all assumption. We are being asked to assume that Clerics are either chosen by deities or trained.

But I have not wrote that. I wrote "either called / chosen by the deity or accepted by the deity after the training".

In the end, both the deity and the character must agree on that.

[zergling.exe]

But I have not wrote that. I wrote "either called / chosen by the deity or accepted by the deity after the training".

In the end, both the deity and the character must agree on that.

They don't need to agree. A diety can have clerics without even knowing that they exist. All that need happen is the cleric have sufficient faith in the diety and set aside the proper time for prayer to be granted abilities.

Now a specific setting could require agreement on both sides, but base D&D does not.