Diplomacy/Sense Motivel vs Enchantment magic

[Lord of Shadows]

Q: How effective would the Diplomacy Skill (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/diplomacy) be against a target that is under a magic Enchantment effect? Sample "magic Enchantment effects" would include:


Charm Person (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/charm-person)
Suggestion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/suggestion)
Dominate Person (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dominate-person)

Automatic fail? Normal Success/Failure based on DC's for the Diplomacy? Higher DC's due to magic?

"Real-game" example: A merchant the party has approached to sell their loot has been placed under an Enchantment effect to "have nothing to do with those grave robbers." The purpose being to force the party to only deal with whoever placed the Enchantment for some reason.

As a side note, only Dominate Person mentions any way to tell if someone is under its effect, a DC 15 Sense Motive. Sense Motive (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/sense-motive) will reveal if someone is under the effects of an Enchantment on a normal DC of 25.

Thanks.

[Psyren]

Generally it's not. That is, you can certainly change their attitude towards you, but the charm or compulsion is overriding that anyway, just as a party member who is already your friend with no Diplomacy needed can be dominated/confused into attacking you, or charmed into taking someone's side over yours.

In other words, Diplomacy changes how someone normally relates to you, while charms and compulsions undermine or override their normal behavior entirely. However, a charm is less effective at dictating behavior, just as it's possible to be friends with two people that have opposing viewpoints.



"Real-game" example: A merchant the party has approached to sell their loot has been placed under an Enchantment effect to "have nothing to do with those grave robbers." The purpose being to force the party to only deal with whoever placed the Enchantment for some reason.

To use this example - it would depend on the specific enchantment used on the merchant. If he was only charmed and asked not to sell to the PCs, he would treat the enchanter as a friend and likely start out with the PCs as unfriendly or indifferent. But if they manage to successfully use Diplomacy on him, he would then treat it as though one friend had asked another not to do something, and depending on your success or rationale, possibly be willing to work with you anyway. "Keep this on the down-low" he might whisper furtively, and buy the wares from the party if they agreed to secrecy so as not to damage his other "friendship."

If however he was dominated into not selling, nothing would work until he could throw off that domination. At best, you might force him to make another will save, if the act of not engaging in commerce was sufficiently anathema to him, for example if you offered him a ludicrously good deal on the purchase.

[Xalestra]

Are you trying to enslave someone? I'm not sure what rules exist but it might be something you look into. Unless permanency can be used on a charm person spell.

[Lord of Shadows]

Are you trying to enslave someone? I'm not sure what rules exist but it might be something you look into. Unless permanency can be used on a charm person spell.

No, not enslavement. In fact, I am coming at this from the other direction. My players are always trying to "Diplomacize" their way into and out of stuff. I am looking for input on what would happen if they encountered someone who - unknown to them - had been placed under a spell causing them to view the party negatively. There would be no obvious reason for the party to suspect outside influence, although as Psyren posted, if something came up that any normal person would agree to, they might get suspicious.

How would the party detect something wrong? (BTW, I don't let them roll their own Diplomacy checks, under the reason that there are "too many variables") Is it even possible to do? Sense Motive is the only thing I can find that allows for detection of someone under another's influence, but what would be the trigger to make a check?
.

[Psyren]

How would the party detect something wrong? (BTW, I don't let them roll their own Diplomacy checks, under the reason that there are "too many variables") Is it even possible to do? Sense Motive is the only thing I can find that allows for detection of someone under another's influence, but what would be the trigger to make a check?
.

The trigger is the same as for any Sense Motive check - a minute or so of interaction with that person.