As a Cleric/ Bard, when does Bless get outclassed?

[Jakinbandw]

I'm just curios what concentration spell beats Bless in combat if you have a couple front liners. It seems to scale well and I haven't seen anything that beats it in general utility.

So playground, I'm curious what your thoughts are, and what concentration buff you would pack each day to help the party.

[BigONotation]

The Bounded Accuracy of 5E means that Bless is always an excellent use of your Concentration. As you gain high level spell slots you can Bless more party members. Played with a Cleric to 15th, Bless was always running on all 5 party members and it made the difference so many times.

[Flashy]

I suspect small parties replace it more quickly than large ones. It doesn't start seeing diminishing returns until you run out of party members to put it on. It looks a lot better in the midgame for a party of six when compared to a party of three.

[HarrisonF]

As a bard, once you get something like hypnotic pattern, you start to get competition for concentration. In some cases buffing is better, in others debuffing is.

[djreynolds]

Never, 1 minute 1d4 for attacks and saves. Unless you have like spiritual guardians running, it is a cheap buff.

[Saintsqc]

Never, 1 minute 1d4 for attacks and saves. Unless you have like spiritual guardians running, it is a cheap buff.

And what happen when you can cast bless or spirit guardians ? Wich one is the best in what conditions ?

[TheFlyingCleric]

Reasons to use bless:

Affects multiple allies and yourself
Bonus applies to EVERY d20 roll (except death saves) the targets make
Everyone makes d20 rolls, thus, everyone will find this buff useful.
Whenever you succeed on a d20 roll while under the effects of bless, roll another d20. If you roll whatever you rolled on the d4 or lower, turn to your cleric and say 'thankyou'. He just saved your ass after all.'
Do you like Countering spells? Do you like having a better chance of countering spells? I thought you might.
Everyone roll initiative. Oh, and add 1d4, because your Cleric read my goddamn mind.
You get this at FIRST LEVEL?


In essence, its a solid use of concentration at any point in the game. A very subtle buff, but a powerful one.

[Rysto]

Bless is a fantastic spell, but it does not apply to all d20 rolls. It applies only to saving throws and attack rolls. It does not apply to ability checks (e.g. initiative rolls).

[RulesJD]

And what happen when you can cast bless or spirit guardians ? Wich one is the best in what conditions ?

When to use SG:

1. When you're fighting 3+ enemies.

2. When your party doesn't really need the help with saves or to-hit.

3. When you need radiant damage.

[MaxWilson]

Reasons to use bless:

Bonus applies to EVERY d20 roll (except death saves) the targets make
Do you like Countering spells? Do you like having a better chance of countering spells? I thought you might.
Everyone roll initiative. Oh, and add 1d4, because your Cleric read my ----mind.


Bolded points are incorrect. Death saves are a save, so you get the Bless bonus there--but Bless does not boost ability checks, so does not affect Counterspell/Dispel Magic checks, nor initiative checks.

[dev6500]

I would say in a typical party of 4, Bless stops being cast by a cleric or bard (full casters) once the gish (paladins or other slower progression casters who have access to bless through their class or from a feat) characters have enough spell slots to take over for them.

But +d4 to attacks and saving throws never loses value. It is just a matter of how quickly a cleric can pawn if off so that they can focus on higher level buffs, debuffs, or control spells.

[Rysto]

I'm willing to be proven wrong, but it seems to me that a Paladin has much better things to spend his spell slots on than Bless, like smites. What's a higher level cleric going to do with those level 1 slots?

[JumboWheat01]

I'm willing to be proven wrong, but it seems to me that a Paladin has much better things to spend his spell slots on than Bless, like smites. What's a higher level cleric going to do with those level 1 slots?

Using their Concentration on a higher-level spell, probably. Concentration is the great limiter for pure casters. Half-casters, like Paladins, may not be eating up their Concentration slot for much, especially if they're focusing on using said spell slots for smiting. Trading one smite for a +d4 for a minute seems like a good trade to me.

And since, I believe, a Paladin's 5th level slots don't provide any bonus to Smiting over their 4th level slots, that could make for a powerful buff for the party.

[SharkForce]

I'm willing to be proven wrong, but it seems to me that a Paladin has much better things to spend his spell slots on than Bless, like smites. What's a higher level cleric going to do with those level 1 slots?

i'm not sure i follow. in what scenario do you imagine +2d8 damage to be superior to +1d4 to attack rolls and saving throws for the entire fight? certainly, a high level paladin may not always want to use bless, but i find it pretty doubtful to describe anything else as a more powerful use of a level 1 spell slot. all it needs to do is prevent 1 disabling effect or cause 1 attack to hit that would have been a miss, and suddenly you're getting far more than 2d8 damage out of the deal (at high levels, at any rate... at level 1, a cantrip wouldn't be worth as much as adding 2d8 damage. at high levels, even a regular cantrip with no bonuses should be enough to beat +2d8 damage).

anyways, i don't think bless ever really becomes totally outclassed. it might not be the one concentration spell you want in a given scenario, but it is never really bad, just sometimes you'll consider something else more important. even at the highest levels, bless gives you an excellent use for your level 1 spell slots, you just use it in the easier fights of the day so that you use fewer resources on the fight and have more valuable resources (like higher level spell slots, increased hit points, etc) available for tougher fights.

but i don't think there's an easily-quantifiable point where you can say it stops being good, and certainly not based on level; against 20 orcs, you may want a hypnotic pattern spell to put half (or more) out of the fight, against a pair of hill giants you might want bless to help your melee characters land their attacks, it just depends on your situation.

[AvatarVecna]

i'm not sure i follow. in what scenario do you imagine +2d8 damage to be superior to +1d4 to attack rolls and saving throws for the entire fight? certainly, a high level paladin may not always want to use bless, but i find it pretty doubtful to describe anything else as a more powerful use of a level 1 spell slot. all it needs to do is prevent 1 disabling effect or cause 1 attack to hit that would have been a miss, and suddenly you're getting far more than 2d8 damage out of the deal (at high levels, at any rate... at level 1, a cantrip wouldn't be worth as much as adding 2d8 damage. at high levels, even a regular cantrip with no bonuses should be enough to beat +2d8 damage).

anyways, i don't think bless ever really becomes totally outclassed. it might not be the one concentration spell you want in a given scenario, but it is never really bad, just sometimes you'll consider something else more important. even at the highest levels, bless gives you an excellent use for your level 1 spell slots, you just use it in the easier fights of the day so that you use fewer resources on the fight and have more valuable resources (like higher level spell slots, increased hit points, etc) available for tougher fights.

but i don't think there's an easily-quantifiable point where you can say it stops being good, and certainly not based on level; against 20 orcs, you may want a hypnotic pattern spell to put half (or more) out of the fight, against a pair of hill giants you might want bless to help your melee characters land their attacks, it just depends on your situation.

A couple points, regarding Paladins using Smite as opposed to Bless:

1) If there's already a Cleric and/or Bard in the party, everybody's likely under a Bless effect already. Now, one could argue that, even though Bless effects can't stack with each other, they can overlap, so the Paladin casting Bless can mean that whoever's double/triple blessed gets to roll 2d4b1/3d4b1, but each Bless sees diminishing returns, especially if there's more than three party members.

2) More likely than not, a Paladin (particularly a low-level one) is going to have very few spell slots, so they're not going to waste one of them on a mere +2d8...no, because they can declare a smite after seeing the attack roll result, and can instead attach that Smite to a crit, for +4d8 total.

3) In a party where the Paladin is the only one capable of casting Bless, the Paladin would probably be better off saving their spell slots for healing after the fight.

[RulesJD]

A couple points, regarding Paladins using Smite as opposed to Bless:

1) If there's already a Cleric and/or Bard in the party, everybody's likely under a Bless effect already. Now, one could argue that, even though Bless effects can't stack with each other, they can overlap, so the Paladin casting Bless can mean that whoever's double/triple blessed gets to roll 2d4b1/3d4b1, but each Bless sees diminishing returns, especially if there's more than three party members.

2) More likely than not, a Paladin (particularly a low-level one) is going to have very few spell slots, so they're not going to waste one of them on a mere +2d8...no, because they can declare a smite after seeing the attack roll result, and can instead attach that Smite to a crit, for +4d8 total.

3) In a party where the Paladin is the only one capable of casting Bless, the Paladin would probably be better off saving their spell slots for healing after the fight.

I never really thought of that before, but that is...technically true? You only get the effect of the "more powerful" effect, so I guess rolling each time would mean different spells were more powerful different times?

With that said, a Paladin is generally one of the best classes to have cast Bless. Their other concentration spells aren't that great (Haste is better cast ON the Paladin, not BY the Paladin) and their addition of +Cha to Con saves means their one of the best at not losing concentration (especially when they get to add the Bless to it).

Also, and this is getting a bit outside, but frankly there is no better spell than Bless for a GWM/GWF Paladin. A single smite might add 2d8 (average 9), but a single hit of GWM adds +10. Making 1 or 2 hits of GWM impact is worth well more than a level 1 Smite, this is especially true if spread out to an Archer using Sharpshooter, etc.

Also, healing spells are one of the worst uses of a Paladin's spell slots. But that's mostly because healing in 5e is so borked anyways with Short Rests + full capabilities even if at 1hp, which means Healing Word is all a party really needs.

[Socratov]

As a bard, it's better to start throwing about illusions, fearie fires, hypnotic patterns, hold person/monsters, heat metal, etc. Stuff that can really ruin someone's day or really help, not to mention their bardic inspiration dice. Haste is a better buff to be cast by a sorcerer with twin spell and a warlock will be better at changing the actual field of battle (hunger of hadar anyone?) as do Druids with their plethora of spells like thorns, entangles, etc.

Point is, bless early game is fantastic, but as the game goes on you will find ways to make better buffs and to impose advantages and disadvantages, that bless tapers off a bit...

[MaxWilson]

With that said, a Paladin is generally one of the best classes to have cast Bless. Their other concentration spells aren't that great (Haste is better cast ON the Paladin, not BY the Paladin) and their addition of +Cha to Con saves means their one of the best at not losing concentration (especially when they get to add the Bless to it).

Paladins have a number of nifty concentration spells. Even if we're just talking first level spells, off the top of my head: Divine Favor adds offensive power, Shield of Faith adds defense, Wrathful Smite adds control, Bless of course adds offensive power and saves, Thunderous Smite adds offense and control.

Wrathful Smite is an amazing spell if you can just get it to land (Wisdom save).

[AvatarVecna]

Paladins have a number of nifty concentration spells. Even if we're just talking first level spells, off the top of my head: Divine Favor adds offensive power, Shield of Faith adds defense, Wrathful Smite adds control, Bless of course adds offensive power and saves, Thunderous Smite adds offense and control.

Wrathful Smite is an amazing spell if you can just get it to land (Wisdom save).

Divine Favor is, comparatively, pretty weak; Bless gives 3 people +1d4 to attack bonus, Divine Favor gives only the caster +1d4 damage. Now, that becomes +2d4 on a crit, but I imagine Bless helps your personal DPR more than Divine Favor does...and that's not even touching on how Bless helps multiple people.

[Slipperychicken]

And what happen when you can cast bless or spirit guardians ? Wich one is the best in what conditions ?
I like bless because it's cheap, and it helps me resist the temptation to cast spirit guardians when I don't need to. My party doesn't always need me to pop a 3rd level spell to finish an encounter, and I want to save up spells for things like healing and see invisibility.

I find that making it through fights is less of a problem than being low on spell slots. The party bruisers can do the damage on their own, so a cleric has to remember his main job is to support them, not compete with them for kills. He shouldn't be blowing lots of dailies every fight to do a job that's already covered.

[bid]

And what happen when you can cast bless or spirit guardians ? Which one is the best in what conditions ?
From a pure DPR POV, assuming 4 level 5, 2 with extra attacks, total 5 attacks doing 10 damage on hit. That 1d4 hit is an extra 12.5% hit or 6.25 DPR.

Spirit guardian has roughly the same DPR on a single target.

[RulesJD]

I like bless because it's cheap, and it helps me resist the temptation to cast spirit guardians when I don't need to. My party doesn't always need me to pop a 3rd level spell to finish an encounter, and I want to save up spells for things like healing and see invisibility.

I find that making it through fights is less of a problem than being low on spell slots. The party bruisers can do the damage on their own, so a cleric has to remember his main job is to support them, not compete with them for kills. He shouldn't be blowing lots of dailies every fight to do a job that's already covered.

That honestly stops me more often than not and results in Bless being cast. Spirit Guardians is just a little too good with only minor amounts of optimization (get Resiliency (Con) or War Caster). It scales as a d8, so it's one of the better scalable spells, it has both movement control and ridiculously good damage, and it automatically doesn't hurt party members. And it's radiant so almost never resisted and adds functionality for some enemies (stopping regen, etc). There are few situations where an upcasted SG doesn't end up winning the fight.

Honestly the Paladin concentration spells are all pretty weak, when compared to GWM. Now, if you're a sword and board paladin then absolutely different considerations, I'm just always a GWM Paladin.

[Ace Jackson]

it automatically doesn't hurt party members.

Understand, I agree with almost everything you said, however, this is a piece of misinformation I hate. Spirit guardians does not automatically ignore allies, when it is cast, the caster can designate any number of creatures the caster can see, as unaffected. If you are trying to rescue a political prisoner, you'd best be careful where you swing that 15 foot radius around. It will hurt party members out of sight, like the hidden rogue, and kill most civilian NPCs, such as the aforementioned prisoner.

[RulesJD]

Understand, I agree with almost everything you said, however, this is a piece of misinformation I hate. Spirit guardians does not automatically ignore allies, when it is cast, the caster can designate any number of creatures the caster can see, as unaffected. If you are trying to rescue a political prisoner, you'd best be careful where you swing that 15 foot radius around. It will hurt party members out of sight, like the hidden rogue, and kill most civilian NPCs, such as the aforementioned prisoner.

That's actually my one saving grace as a DM when a player starts using the spell a lot. I'm very conscious of it as a player, because 99.9% of Clerics forget that nuisance. Not the best thing to abuse as a DM, but after the players fail a mission or two because the Cleric forgot, it at least puts somewhat of a damper on the spell.


Until the Cleric remembers they can just Revivify the civilian NPC lol.

[Slipperychicken]

That 1d4 hit is an extra 12.5% hit or 6.25 DPR.

That is not true. It increases the hit chance against a given AC by 12.5 percentage points, which in this scenario usually increases damage by 1.25. That is different from increasing it by 12.5%, because while the base damage is 10, the expected damage without the d4 is not 10. The percentage change in damage varies greatly depending on the number needed to hit the target.


In the following table I will compare the percentage change in expected damage with and without bless in a highly simplified scenario: There are no critical hits, the tohit bonus is zero (the AC may be treated as "I need to roll this number to hit"), and the expected damage on a hit is exactly 10. I used Anydice to compute hit chance of 1d20 and 1d20+1d4.


d20 roll needed to hit1d20 hit chance1d20+1d4 hit chancedmg w/ 1d20dmg w/ 1d20+1d4dmg IncreasePercent dmg Increase
[td]195%98.75%9.59.8750.3753.95%
[td]295%98.75%9.59.8750.3753.95%
[td]390%98.75%99.8750.8759.72%
[td]485%96.25%8.59.6251.12513.24%
[td]580%92.5%89.251.2515.63%
[td]675%87.5%7.58.751.2516.67%
[td]770%82.5%78.251.2517.86%[td]
865%77.5%6.57.751.2519.23%[td]
960%72.5%67.251.2520.83%
[td]1055%67.5%5.56.751.2522.73%
[td]1150%62.5%56.251.2525%
[td]1245%57.5%4.55.751.2527.78%
[td]1340%52.5%45.251.2531.25%
[td]1435%47.5%3.54.751.2535.71%
[td]1530%42.5%34.251.2541.67%
[td]1625%37.5%2.53.751.2550%
[td]1720%32.5%23.251.2562.5%
[td]1815%27.5%1.52.751.2583.33%
[td]1910%22.5%12.251.25125%
[td]205%17.5%0.51.751.25250%[td]




So if my calculations are correct (?), then it turns out bless can mean a rather large improvement in damage, especially when your party needs high rolls to hit a target. When your allies hit on an 11, that's roughly a 25% boost in expected damage, and it's over 100% when the party needs a 19 to hit. This makes Bless an extremely efficient way to increase your party's damage. As a percent increase over several damage-dealers, it may even be better than Haste.

[bid]

That is not true. It increases the hit chance against a given AC by 12.5 percentage points, which in this scenario usually increases damage by 1.25.
Please read it once again.

Lets use numbers to make it concrete enough:
- you have +6 to hit AC 17 and hit on 11+ (55%)
- you roll 10, 1 short: 1d4 has 100% success (+5%)
- you roll 9, 2 short: 1d4 has 75% success (+3.75%)
- you roll 8, 3 short: 1d4 has 50% success (+2.5%)
- you roll 7, 2 short: 1d4 has 25% success (+1.25%)
Converting your 7-10 failures into success add 12.5% to your hits (percentage point)

Each extra hit does 10 damage, or 1.25 extra damage per attack
The party can do 5 attacks per round (before AoA), or 5 * 1.25 = 6.25 damage

The cleric's bless has an effective 6.25 DPR.


Whether your party did 6.25 DPR or 25 DPR before the buff won't change a thing.

[MaxWilson]

Divine Favor is, comparatively, pretty weak; Bless gives 3 people +1d4 to attack bonus, Divine Favor gives only the caster +1d4 damage. Now, that becomes +2d4 on a crit, but I imagine Bless helps your personal DPR more than Divine Favor does...and that's not even touching on how Bless helps multiple people.

I agree, and you'll notice I listed them both. Divine Favor's selling point is that it has a better action economy (1 bonus action, vs. 1 full action for Bless).

Divine Favor is something I would cast when fighting zombies or vampires (because of radiant damage), or perhaps when soloing goblins (because d8+3 achieves a kill only 63% of the time whereas d8+3+d4 achieves a kill 91% of the time, which is a 44% boost in kill rate; whereas Bless would boost your hit percentage from 55% to 68%, only a 23% increase in kill rate). It's not something I would normally cast though or even memorize, especially at higher levels--offensive buffs are usually pretty weak in 5E--but it has a niche, and the action economy is great.


I like bless because it's cheap, and it helps me resist the temptation to cast spirit guardians when I don't need to. My party doesn't always need me to pop a 3rd level spell to finish an encounter, and I want to save up spells for things like healing and see invisibility.

This is the thing that would stop me from casting Bless, more often than anything else. Most non-Deadly encounters in 5E are so easy that it feels like a failure to spend any spell slots at all, especially when using the DMG spell point variant. On the other hand, if you're up against something serious (I've been reading through Against the Giants so let's say it's a dozen ogres) spell support is necessary but Bless is inadequate, and you'd wind up casting Hypnotic Pattern or something instead.

The only case I can think of where I'd probably actually cast Bless in practice is if I knew I was about to face Banshees or other creatures that force saving throws in the next sixty seconds, or if we were going full-court-press on an enemy like a spellcasting dragon and I didn't have anything better (like Polymorph or Enlarge or Animate Objects or Expeditious Retreat) to spend my concentration on. It's a pretty narrow edge case really. But I still keep Bless memorized anyway, just in case.

[Jakinbandw]

Hmm, since I'm going life cleric 1/bard X, it seems like my two magical secrets at lvl7 will be spirit guardians and good berry.

That said, spirit guardians is going to put me closer to the front lines than I would like. I have a con score of 11, and an AC of 18 (at level 1), so this will be interesting.

[djreynolds]

And what happen when you can cast bless or spirit guardians ? Wich one is the best in what conditions ?


When to use SG:

1. When you're fighting 3+ enemies.

2. When your party doesn't really need the help with saves or to-hit.

3. When you need radiant damage.

This is a pretty good assessment right here ^^^^.

It sounds dumb to say it depends on the party, but...

For instance, we have a 5th level ranger who selected sharpshooter at 4th level. This guy can put out some much damage so bless is better and I'll have spiritual weapon running and try to squeeze in some melee hits of my own or sacred flame.

But when we came across a non-magical resistant enemy, spiritual guardians was a better choice.

[solidork]

It's only been one game, but Spirit Guardians annihilated the one combat encounter we faced with my new 5th level War Cleric. Did 150+ damage over the course of the fight.

[Slipperychicken]

It's only been one game, but Spirit Guardians annihilated the one combat encounter we faced with my new 5th level War Cleric. Did 150+ damage over the course of the fight.

My group had a very short, simple dungeon last night. Three fights, no traps or other impediments, and a lot of small enemies. A single casting of Spirit Guardians lasted the whole dungeon (my concentration checks were on fire that night, didn't roll under 10 once). It was wonderful for clearing out the little guys while keeping pressure on the big ones.


It's just such a great spell, especially for clearing out mobs of small enemies so your fighters can focus on big guys. Within 2 or 3 rounds, it puts out as much damage as a fireball, but it's radiant damage, and it stays up for 10 minutes. It can attract a lot of attention though, which makes it nice if you want to tank as a cleric. Spirit Guardians is the reason why all clerics should be taking war caster.

[bardo]

Please read it once again.

Lets use numbers to make it concrete enough:
- you have +6 to hit AC 17 and hit on 11+ (55%)
- you roll 10, 1 short: 1d4 has 100% success (+5%)
- you roll 9, 2 short: 1d4 has 75% success (+3.75%)
- you roll 8, 3 short: 1d4 has 50% success (+2.5%)
- you roll 7, 2 short: 1d4 has 25% success (+1.25%)
Converting your 7-10 failures into success add 12.5% to your hits (percentage point)

Each extra hit does 10 damage, or 1.25 extra damage per attack
The party can do 5 attacks per round (before AoA), or 5 * 1.25 = 6.25 damage

The cleric's bless has an effective 6.25 DPR.


Whether your party did 6.25 DPR or 25 DPR before the buff won't change a thing.

Your math is mostly right, except 11+ on a d20 is 50% not 55%, and I don't believe a flat-rate change in DPR holds true to all scenarios.

The scenario is attacking an AC17 target with +6 to hit, and dealing 10hp per hit. Our Fighter will attack 80 times, which covers each and every possible combination of d20 and d4 exactly once.

Without bless Fighter hits on rolls of d20 >= 11, which is 40 hits. 40 hits out of 80 swings.

EDIT - snip - realised my own mistake.

With bless Fighter gets the same 40 hits, plus 4 extra hits on d20 = 10 (d4 >= 1), plus 3 extra hits on d20 = 9 (d4 >= 2), plus 2 extra hits on d20 = 8 (d4 >= 3), plus 1 extra hit on d20 = 7 (d4 = 4). That's 10 extra hits over 80 attempts.

Bless is worth 1 extra hit for every 8 attack rolls attempted (affecting melee, ranged, and some spells), and 1 extra saving throw made for every 8 saving throws attempted. Doesn't apply when you need more than 20 to hit or to save. Doesn't apply when you need less than 6 to hit or to save.

Bardo.

[Waazraath]

As for the paladin casting bless: in the campaign where I have pally character, I hardly use it, might even have never used it.

Context: party of 3, ranger (melee, 2wf), wizard (illusionist), and my pally (defense fighting style, shield). I'm taking care of a being the tank, and nova damage dealer. In that role, shield of faith is better, if I have a buff round. If there isn't a buff round, it's most important to get in the fray asap, and block the route to the wizard. Besides, with only 3 characters, we're often outnumberd, and spending a spell slot to smite and insta kill a mook was often a good strategy we play with flanking rules). The 1d4 on attack rolls, with only 2 players benefitting, and where it takes a round to cast it, just wasn't worth it.

Of course, bless is a great spell, but in the campaign I'm in, it's hardly the best option so far.

[Chambers]

I'm willing to be proven wrong, but it seems to me that a Paladin has much better things to spend his spell slots on than Bless, like smites. What's a higher level cleric going to do with those level 1 slots?

I'm currently playing an 18th level Devotion Paladin (Sword & Board). I have yet to prepare a single Smite spell because I'd rather use Bless every fight. If I'm not concentrating on Bless then I'm probably concentrating on Compelled Duel. That spell is great for tanking and well worth the concentration.

Edit: Current party is an Devotion Paladin (Me), Evocation Wizard, Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger with a Paladin dip, Life Cleric, Land Druid, and an Vengeance Paladin. Everyone except the Rogue is single class.

[Rysto]

I said smite, not smite spell. But others pointed out that the Cleric may be able to spend concentration on something else if the Paladin casts bless, which makes sense to me.

[MaxWilson]

I said smite, not smite spell. But others pointed out that the Cleric may be able to spend concentration on something else if the Paladin casts bless, which makes sense to me.

Contra conventional wisdom, smiting (as opposed to smite spells) is worth it only if you crit. Otherwise it's a pretty terrible use of spell slots. It is exceedingly rare that 4d8 damage (18) from smiting with a 3rd level spell is more valuable to the party than the 70 HP of damage you could otherwise have healed the party with afterwards. Most monsters skew toward defensive CR (i.e. high HP, low damage), and smiting is a good use of spells only against the opposite case (glass cannons). E.g. if you had a monster with 30 HP that nevertheless attacked at +12 for 20d6 HP of damage, then it would make sense to smite it.

But such monsters are few and far between. Intellect Devourers and Banshees maybe. Anything else, smiting (except on a crit) is a poor choice. (Smiting on a crit isn't a great choice but it is at least defensible, though cheesy from an descriptive standpoint.)

[bid]

Contra conventional wisdom, smiting (as opposed to smite spells) is worth it only if you crit.
Action economy, nova. Suppressing that caster. Conventional wisdom is sometimes right for the wrong reasons.

Reverend Dodgson was saying the same thing about tennis. He wanted it to be raw playing ability and remove strategy and tactics.

[djreynolds]

We are at 4th level, and I just used in a second level spell slot and now I blessed 4 party members. 1d4 on attacks and saves, potent spell.

Spirit guardians is great but the enemy will learn to avoid you and DMs will prepare for it, meta-gaming I know, but a good DM will spread out his attackers.

Both are great spells, it just depends on the party and the terrain and enemy layout.