Disguise Self and disguise [pathfinder]

[Seppo87]

How should the following situations work?

1) use of disguise self without a disguise:
can this be seen through with a dc10 perception as if it was a disguise check of 10 or simply works until disbelieved?
If it counts as a disguise dc10 do I get penalities to become a different subtype?
If it doesn't, see question 3

2) use of a disguise to look like person A and then disguise self to look like person B on top of that:
When disbelieved the observer must make a perception check to see through the mundane disguise as well?
Can the observer try to see through the mundane disguise before disbelieving the magical one?
What if the magical disguise is actually identical to the mundane one - should I get the +10 bonus? Does this negate the perception check until disbelieved? Do I lose the bonus when disbelieved?

3) disguise self as part of a disguise:
Is the disguise believable without a check until interacted with?
Is the +10 lost when the figment is dibelieved?
If the magical disguise is used to change gender and subtype are the penalties associated with assuming a different gender or subtype negated until disbelief happens?

How does this work exactly

[Firest Kathon]

1) You cannot use disguise self without disguising. The caster always makes a disguise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/disguise) check to determine the quality of the disguise. They can take 10 on that check if they want to avoid rolling. The DC of the perception check (if taking 10) would be 10 + 10 (from disguise self) + disguise skill (Cha, ranks, etc.), and suspicious people (e.g. guards) usually take 10 on the check. A different subtype imposes a -2 penalty, as per the disguise skill.

2) Succeeding on a will save does not allow you to see through the magical disguise, merely allows you to recognize it as an illusion. You still need to succeed at a perception check (without the +10 from disguise self) to see through the disguises (I'd say one check against both disguises).

3) You need to interact with the disguise to get a will save. Succeeding on the save removes the +10 bonus from disguise self. Penalties for different gender of subtype/race still apply, even with disguise self.

Example: Bob the 1st-level male Human Bard has Cha 16, 1 rank in Disguise, and a disguise kit. He casts disguise self to look like Ginny the female Half-Ork Guard and takes 10 on the check.


Bonus
Source


10
Taking 10


+7
1 skill rank, +3 Cha, +3 class skill


+10
Disguise Self


+2
disguise kit


-2
different gender


-2
different subtype


25
Final DC



When he tries to smuggle through the gate, Greg the inattentive Guard (+6 perception, takes 10) does not notice the disguise and waves him through. Since he does not interact with the disguise, he never gets a Will save. However, inside he meets Sargent Sam (+7 perception, takes 10) who shakes his hand because it is Ginny's birthday today. He succeeds at his Will save and now his 17 on perception is enough to see through the disguise - without the bonus of +10 from disguise self the DC is only 15.

[Seppo87]

I like your interpretation but then why does the disguise self spell say "IF" when mentioning the use of the spell in conjunction with the disguise skill?
It appears to me that there are two different uses of the spell, one that does not rely on a disguise check and one that does.
Am I misreading the spell?

[Firest Kathon]

I think it depends on the usage. If you use this spell to save on cost of costumes for the play you are performing on stage, it would not require a disguise check. Same if you use it to make your clothes look nicer (or dirtier), or change your hair color, no disguise check required. But if you use this spell to look like someone else (not necessary an individual, but also "a generic town guard") you are creating a disguise and have to make a check. I think it cold be summed up like this: If you want to deceive someone, make a disguise check. If it's just to look different, no check required.

[Seppo87]

If this was correct the spell would mention a change of clothes as the only usage not related to a disguise check.

Instead it specifically mentions changing height, colors, subtype and "even look like a completely different individual" as usages NOT related to a disguise check.

I wouldn't mind the spell being used the way you described, but I'm not sure it's neither raw nor rai.

The spell de facto says that you can look different OR you can use it to enhance a mundane disguise.
There are clearly two different uses and both include changing your appearance.

[DarkSoul]

You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender.

The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment.You can turn yourself into a bright blue elf in a tuxedo with a walking stick if you want, but you don't sound different, you don't smell different, and your rapier still hurts like a rapier even if it looks like a walking stick. No one is going to think for a minute that you're trying to disguise yourself as someone else with this use of the spell. You don't look like you, but you don't look like anyone else either. Think of this like a ski mask on a bank robber. They're not trying to pass themselves off as anyone, they just don't want to be recognized.


If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check. A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.If you actually want to convince people that you're someone else, this will help with aspects of the disguise that are harder to get right, such as trying to impersonate someone 8 inches taller than you with a lazy eye and missing a finger on their right hand. If someone actually shakes your hand they'll get a save against the spell because they can feel your finger there when it shouldn't be, but you can wave to them with your right hand and they'll still see the missing finger. This usage of the spell is for when you need to pretend to be someone else.

Just looking like a random member of the city watch that "erm, just transferred in from a different post, yeah..." would be the first use. Pretending to be Joe the city guard known for harassing drunks down at the docks is the second.