Charisma and physical attractiveness - Curse of Ugliness

[mgshamster]

In previous editions, Charisma was (at least in part) a measurement of physical beauty and comeliness.

Is physical appearance in any way tied to charisma in 5e?

If yes, what portion of the charisma score is associated with comeliness/attractiveness?

If no, are there any ability scores (or any other mechanics) in 5e that has to do with one's physical apearence or attractiveness?

If a character was cursed to lose their beauty, how would you make that effect from a mechanical perspective?

[Naanomi]

It can be but doesn't have to be... A high charisma person might be good looking as part of their charm; but could have a commanding presence despite their plain face; or a low charisma character might be a beautiful conceited ice queen who everyone grows to hate as much as it could be an ugly shy guy who likes to keep his hideousness hidden and not draw attention to himself. Much like intelligence might be representative of natural brilliance or general education depending on the character.

Other stats might influence appearance... Strength and constitution; though very low or very high on nearly any stat might play a part

Disadvantage on Charisma/persuasion checks might work for a 'curse of ugly'

[JohnDoe]

No stats represent physical beauty.

[smcmike]

Mechanically, no. There is some mention of "graceful" or "intimidating" presence, but not physical beauty.

Which is good. There are a number of public figures one could name who seem to have very high charisma scores, based upon their apparent popularity, despite appearing to be overgrown Oompa Loompas or whathaveyou.

Of course, Bestow Curse works perfectly if you want to hurt their charisma, and it seems fine to describe it however you want. Maybe it harms their charisma in some ineffible sense, just saps their "presence." Maybe it directly hurts their confidence. Or maybe it's a disgusting boil on their face, which has a side effect of ruining their self-conception.

[mgshamster]

At this point, I have a rough draft of:

Other people who look upon you see someone who is completey uncomely and unattractive. -2 Charisma, disadvantage in charisma checks (not saves).

However, I want to make this as RAW as possible, so if there is any sort of mechanic in 5e at all that has to do with attractiveness, I'd rather target that than charisma. If there isn't any sort of mechanic for this in 5e, then charisma will have to do.

[CoggieRagabash]

I subscribe to Naanomi's opinion that it is a component, but a magnetic personality and social skills can overcome a lackluster appearance - or a lack thereof can waste the advantage presented by beauty. This allows people to play a variety of characters (the beautiful person whose caustic personality puts everyone off; the forgettable-looking old man with a brilliant smile and a soothing way of speaking) which is good, since 5e is about options. Being forced to play a hunk/bombshell because you want to play a sorcerer is restrictive.

At the same time, appearance does affect how someone's words and actions are perceived. A beautiful person committing the same acts as an ugly one will generally be forgiven more, often without people realizing they're favoring them. So a curse of ugliness imbuing a modest penalty to Charisma seems reasonable to me, representing a slightly larger hurdle for the person's force of personality to overcome.

Edit: Minor wording changes.

[smcmike]

It's worth mentioning that a beautiful person with a caustic personality may, in fact, have a high charisma. "Caustic" is a term that may represent either high or low charisma. High charisma does not necessarily mean likable any more than it means beautiful.

My model for a beautiful low-charisma person would be the stereotypical Ken or Barbie fashion model, who looks nice but literally has nothing interesting to say.

[TheFlyingCleric]

Charisma is considered a mental stat; several classes use it as their spellcasting stat, putting it in the same group as Wisdom and Intelligence.

Your actual appearance is more strongly associated with the three physical stats; Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. I could see an argument for Constitution; if you look healthy, then on the balance of probability you should look at least moderately attractive. But otherwise, beauty is in the eye of the beholder (maybe I just don't go for guys/gals with high Strength Scores?)

In any case, your appearance is really up to you. What's written in page 14 of the PHB is, first and foremost, just a guide.


If I cursed someone with ugliness, I would probably not deal with it mechanically, but rather use it as material during social scenarios. And make sure every new NPC he talked to reminded him how ugly he looked, just to rub it in.

[Ninja_Prawn]

High charisma does not necessarily mean likable any more than it means beautiful.

Indeed. A big part of Charisma is internal - self-confidence, conviction, etc. A person with a strong sense of who they are has high Charisma even if they're both ugly and unlikeable.

As for other stats that have a bearing on beauty, I'd say that Dexterity has a part as well. Grace, poise, artistry... these are why people think elves are beautiful.

[Oramac]

Mechanically, I'm not aware that any stat explicitly improves physical appearance. Nor should they.

That said, were I DMing it, I'd say Charisma is more of a force of personality, and Strength/Constitution would be for physical appearance. (probably leaning more towards Con than Str)

[Millstone85]

I treat my warlock's high charisma as an effect of the mesmerizing magic of the pact.
People get distracted from the plain appearance and poor social skills.

[mgshamster]

From a mechanical perspective, how would you treat a curse of ugliness?

[JeenLeen]

If a character was cursed to lose their beauty, how would you make that effect from a mechanical perspective?

Concurring with others regarding no mechanical measure of beauty. For how to mechanically implement a curse, I could see disadvantage on ability checks involving social interaction or utilizing appearance, such as Deception, Persuasion, and at least some use of Disguise kits. It could also impact the social aspect of Investigation, maybe even Insight if folks' aversion to you makes it hard to read their faces/voices.
Depending on how a person uses it, it may hinder Intimidation, or even help it if you don't mind a curse having a minor boon.

From the above, I'm assuming they went from beautiful to really ugly, not just beautiful to plain. If plain, maybe something like they no longer get their proficiency bonuses or they get a -2 penalty (to counteract the proficiency bonus from level 1).

Basically, the idea is that the penalty comes from an initial bad reaction to someone, but in theory the person could still pull it off if they are skilled (or lucky) enough.

[Naanomi]

Even if you don't think Charisma influences appearance, a curse of ugliness can still give disadvantage to charisma checks. It doesn't change who you are, but can easily (by definition perhaps) influence how others react to you.

No actual drop in charisma score (5e rarely works that way anyways, and it shouldn't effect Spellcasting or saves or whatever is purely a measure of charisma on yourself)

On a side, we can't put too much of appearance on Con... The classic 'high con guy' is potentially crisscrossed in hideous scars of wounds that should have killed him but didn't

[bid]

If a character was cursed to lose their beauty, how would you make that effect from a mechanical perspective?
Isn't that what hex does?

Disadvantage on Cha check where beauty is important (aka charm).

[smcmike]

From a mechanical perspective, how would you treat a curse of ugliness?

Disadvantage on any charisma check where the target can see you.


The fact that charisma isn't a measure of physical beauty doesn't mean that a major defect in that beauty won't hurt your charisma. It's hard to persuade someone who is bent over laughing at the your hideous hairy warts.

[mgshamster]

Revised draft for Curse of Ugliness:

Disadvantage on any ability check to interact socially with another creature. This curse works across genders and races, but does not work if the creature cannot determine the physical attractiveness of the one cursed (Examples: the cursed is hidden behind clothing or the interacting creature is blind).

Thoughts?

[MaxWilson]

In previous editions, Charisma was (at least in part) a measurement of physical beauty and comeliness.

Is physical appearance in any way tied to charisma in 5e?

If yes, what portion of the charisma score is associated with comeliness/attractiveness?

If no, are there any ability scores (or any other mechanics) in 5e that has to do with one's physical apearence or attractiveness?

If a character was cursed to lose their beauty, how would you make that effect from a mechanical perspective?

It's been said that attractiveness is simply pleasant personality combined with a healthy constitution, and in real life I note that health and beauty are intimately associated both in marketing and as far as I can see in reality. (E.g. glossy hair is a sign of health, and therefore gets treated as a marker for beauty.) Therefore, I treat Constitution as basically a measure of raw physical appeal.

Someone with a high Con and low Cha would be objectified and used by others. Someone with a low Con and a high Cha might be seen as ethereally beautiful despite their sickly pallor, or might be curiously compelling despite their looks (depends, partly on player preference). Someone with a high Con and a high Cha will be beautiful AND charismatic and in control. Think about the way Jim Butcher write Mab the Queen of Air and Darkness--formidable, gorgeous, and scary. That's how I would treat a high Con/high Cha.

[Slipperychicken]

If a character was cursed to lose their beauty, how would you make that effect from a mechanical perspective?

If an enchanter cursed someone to be super duper ugly (I mean making someone look like a fallout ghoul or a ferengi, not "you're only 4/10 instead of 10/10 now"), then I would assign the recipient of the curse disadvantage on charisma checks made to influence people who can clearly see him or her. Simply making an otherwise handsome person look average or homely might be emotionally harmful to the person and his reputation, but it would not, in my opinion, be worthy of disadvantage on charisma checks.

[smcmike]

Out of the three physical attributes, constitution might be the one I least associate with physical beauty.

Dexterity is beautiful. Aesthetic sports are high on dexterity - dancing, diving, skating, gymnastics. Beauty in team sports is usually associated with dexterity too - making that beautiful one handed catch or spin move is about dexterity.

Strength can be beautiful, though in our society, at least, this is very gender-specific. LeBron James dunking the ball is dexterity, but strength too, and is most certainly beautiful.

Constitution is a marathoner. Have you ever watched a marathon? Its amazing, but it's often far from beautiful.

[Ninja_Prawn]

might be emotionally harmful to the person

I had been thinking the same thing. In a game where you're using the Sanity rules, I would definitely involve them in this kind of curse, either as a slow, creeping thing where seeing your face in the mirror every day gradually undermines your confidence, or a paradigm shift where your entire world is pulled out from under you, depending on the character in question.

[MaxWilson]

Out of the three physical attributes, constitution might be the one I least associate with physical beauty.

Dexterity is beautiful. Aesthetic sports are high on dexterity - dancing, diving, skating, gymnastics. Beauty in team sports is usually associated with dexterity too - making that beautiful one handed catch or spin move is about dexterity.

Strength can be beautiful, though in our society, at least, this is very gender-specific. LeBron James dunking the ball is dexterity, but strength too, and is most certainly beautiful.

Constitution is a marathoner. Have you ever watched a marathon? Its amazing, but it's often far from beautiful.

What makes you think that athletes like LeBron James are unhealthy? Is it really the Strength that attracts people to these athletes, or is it the physical health and trim bodies?

If you add 60 pounds of chunky fat to LeBron James's frame without reducing his strength at all, is he still beautiful?

That's not a rhetorical question BTW--maybe you'll answer "Yes" and I'll say "How interesting."

[Joe the Rat]

@smcmike: Beauty is not always about movement.
Constitution is also health - which can affect appearance. Having species appropriate amounts of luster, color, softness, fullness or hair, scaliness, sebaceous oozing, etc. Take all three physical stats, and you get a picture of how a character may looks... bet even then, it is not necessarily in an attractive way. Your STR/DEX Barbarian might be all big muffiny chest and mighty thews to wrap around you... Or you're built like a plush fireplug, and the only thing cut about you is your lunch.
And then we get into cultural standards.


From a mechanical perspective, how would you treat a curse of ugliness?From a conceptual perspective, what do you want a Curse of Ugliness meant to do?

I see two different things here: You Ugly Now, and You Cursed Now.

For physical, cursed-to-the-point-of-having-mechanical-impact ugly... The most mechanical I would do is a Disadvantage on all Charisma checks where your appearance might be relevant.... except Intimidation. Trying to frighten someone into something when your mere appearance, or threatening to touch them is icky, getting people to back away isn't any more difficult. But the biggest impact is going to be social. People don't want to look at you or deal with you. They don't want you in their business establishments, at court, near children, etc. Couple this with the Beauty Equals Goodness trope, and people who don't know you will expect you to be as vile and horrible as your visage. You are the first suspect. And people will remember you as easily as they remember the incredibly alluring bard, or the intriguingly exotic barbarian from distant lands. Unless you wanted to pretend to be a beggar, in which case you fit right in.

All of this can be bypassed by a veil, mask, or other means to hide your appearance. This creates an air of mystery, and a talking point in your interactions. "Yes, I apologize for the mask. I ran afoul of a swamp hag, who cursed me with an unpleasant appearance. I wear this so not to upset gentlefolk such as yourself. Now, about those horses...". Disguise self covers it as well. heck, disguise self could implement this effect if they so desired.


Personally, if I am going to hit someone with a curse of ugly, I want more out of it than a bad case of baleful alter self. I want supernaturally ugly - ugly to your soul. Your very presence is anathema to good folk, and no disguise will hide the fact that you are hideous. People just feel that you are foul, to the point were it does work its way into every aspect of your presence. You're so ugly, you're ugly in the dark. Blind people recoil at your presence. Your touch induces Wisdom saves to not flinch and back away. This is blanket, unavoidable Charisma Check Disadvantage... if not a flat penalty. Even Intimidation - you are as likely to incite violence against you as you are terror.

[mgshamster]

From a conceptual perspective, what do you want a Curse of Ugliness meant to do?

I want it to strip away all beauty from the target. As in, everything that makes up their sense of attractiveness is completey gone. The entire concept of comeliness has vanished from that person to the point where they are severely unattractive.

If comeliness was an ability score which measured only physical attractiveness, the curse would put them at 1.

(Assuming 1 is the minimal an ability score can be while still allowing the person to be alive/conscious/capable of interacting with the world).

[Kryx]

I'm a pretty mechanical guy, but this seems to be a realm of RP more than mechanics.

That said your latest variation seems good. I would consider making them auto fail the checks if it's truly a 1. Though there are plenty of ugly people who can convince others via their charisma so perhaps not.

[Specter]

If someone has a high Charisma, it's highly likely that they're also beautiful, but not necessary (e.g. world leaders that look like butts).

If someone has a low Charisma, it's highly likely that they're also ugly, but not necessarily (e.g. someone who has looks but is shy).

[smcmike]

What makes you think that athletes like LeBron James are unhealthy? Is it really the Strength that attracts people to these athletes, or is it the physical health and trim bodies?

If you add 60 pounds of chunky fat to LeBron James's frame without reducing his strength at all, is he still beautiful?

That's not a rhetorical question BTW--maybe you'll answer "Yes" and I'll say "How interesting."

I don't think you could add 60 pounds of chunky fat without reducing his strength and/or dexterity. It would most impact dexterity, but would also certainly impact his defining ability - the ability to "perform a stunt mid-jump," which is listed under strength.

Which is to say that these are messy things, and don't really work. I think it is, however, fair to categorize athletes as primarily focused on strength, endurance, or dexterity, and by that measure, it's the dexterous ones that catch the eye.

More importantly, a quick review of all professional athletes of all sorts indicates that none of the physical stats map very well on beauty, since a great many athletes are very ugly people, despite being extremely strong, tough, and quick.

[mgshamster]

I'm a pretty mechanical guy, but this seems to be a realm of RP more than mechanics.

That said your latest variation seems good. I would consider making them auto fail the checks if it's truly a 1. Though there are plenty of ugly people who can convince others via their charisma so perhaps not.

It's definitely in the realm of RP. I'd say that most of it is going to be RP. But there's still a little bit that's in the realm of mechanics, and that's why I was asking here.

Thanks everyone for your help! I've got my mechanical answer (unless anyone else has suggestions), so for the rest of the thread, enjoy the discussion of abstracts! :)

[Asmotherion]

This is a misconception. Yes, someone's appearence might be part of his charisma, but:

A) A dark pirate captain with an eyepatch, a hook and an impossing aura, has a high charisma despite the scars, uggly face and torn clothes.

B) A woman with a prety face and sexy body may stil have a low charisma if she lacks personality and lets people manipulate her.

Charisma is a combination of strength of personality, will power, self confidence, self esteem and ability to influance others. So, in a sence, physical beuty can boost your self esteem, self confidence and ability to influence others, giving a boost to your charisma.

It is thus right to conclude that a person with a plesent physic is more propable of having a higher charisma than one who lacks it, without it being a standard rule. Also, lowering the quality of one's physical appearence might lower his self esteem, which would explain a loss of charisma (mostly for past editions of dnd), especially for a vein person who's self esteem is based more in his physical appearence than his personality.

In any case, it is wrong to use charisma as a mesurement of one's appearence.

[Joe the Rat]

The entire concept of comeliness has vanished from that person to the point where they are severely unattractive. This actually intrigues me as an idea. Instead of being ugly, the character lacks any sort of appreciable aesthetic dimension. They literally cannot be evaluated in terms of beauty. Like when Constructs and Undead (and Droids) didn't have Constitution scores. They are not ugly nor beautiful, inspiring nor insipid, pleasant nor vile. Nor average. They are there, and you can describe them in exact detail, but can't describe them as being pretty, or pretty hideous, or pretty average.

I've had beer like that.

[Specter]

Also, beauty, while not mandatory for beauty, IS related to it; just check Flesh Rot in Contagion.

[MaxWilson]

I don't think you could add 60 pounds of chunky fat without reducing his strength and/or dexterity. It would most impact dexterity, but would also certainly impact his defining ability - the ability to "perform a stunt mid-jump," which is listed under strength.

Which is to say that these are messy things, and don't really work. I think it is, however, fair to categorize athletes as primarily focused on strength, endurance, or dexterity, and by that measure, it's the dexterous ones that catch the eye.

More importantly, a quick review of all professional athletes of all sorts indicates that none of the physical stats map very well on beauty, since a great many athletes are very ugly people, despite being extremely strong, tough, and quick.

I think we have different views of what Constitution means. You're very focused on it as a muscular activity ("endurance") but to me I'd peg it as the all-up state of your body, including disease resistance, muscle tone (as opposed to strength), hair gloss, skin complexion, and all of those other secondary health indicators. Endurance is a side-effect of good health in my view; from your writing, I think you would disagree with where I draw the boundary.

I have no problem with the idea of a chunky fat LeBron with high cholesterol, greasy hair, and pimples performing an impressive stunt mid-jump (you might have to add even more muscle underneath the fat to compensate for the extra weight) but he would no longer qualify as being in excellent health.

[smcmike]

I think we have different views of what Constitution means. You're very focused on it as a muscular activity ("endurance") but to me I'd peg it as the all-up state of your body, including disease resistance, muscle tone (as opposed to strength), hair gloss, skin complexion, and all of those other secondary health indicators. Endurance is a side-effect of good health in my view; from your writing, I think you would disagree with where I draw the boundary.

I have no problem with the idea of a chunky fat LeBron with high cholesterol, greasy hair, and pimples performing an impressive stunt mid-jump (you might have to add even more muscle underneath the fat to compensate for the extra weight) but he would no longer qualify as being in excellent health.

Constitution is used to hold your breath, march or labor for hours without rest, go without sleep, survive without food or water, or, bizarrely, quaff an entire stein of ale in one go.

None of these things are things that I think have a tight correlation with physical beauty. Someone who is able to labor for hours without rest is likely to be very toned, but tone isn't everything. Again, look at your average athlete - fit, but not beautiful. Or, take your average roofer. He'll work you into the ground, but he sure isn't going to catch your eye.

[MaxWilson]

Constitution is used to hold your breath, march or labor for hours without rest, go without sleep, survive without food or water, or, bizarrely, quaff an entire stein of ale in one go.

None of these things are things that I think have a tight correlation with physical beauty. Someone who is able to labor for hours without rest is likely to be very toned, but tone isn't everything. Again, look at your average athlete - fit, but not beautiful. Or, take your average roofer. He'll work you into the ground, but he sure isn't going to catch your eye.

So, do we agree now that constitution ~= fitness? I want to get that clear before we go on.

Arguendo, the correlation with physical beauty is not "tight", but it's still a high degree of correlation--as high as you're going to find for any real-world quality in a six-attribute system. E.g. in real life, manual dexterity and agility don't tightly correlate, nor do strength and high-jumping distance. The correlation is strong enough to be plausible in a game setting.

Maybe it even explains why princesses are always marrying heroic roofers! Er, I mean peasants.

[bid]

Arguendo, the correlation with physical beauty is not "tight", but it's still a high degree of correlation
Your definition is cultural.

For instance, white skin, corset and fraility is the victorian canon.

[smcmike]

Your definition is cultural.

For instance, white skin, corset and fraility is the victorian canon.

Also, highly gender-specific in many settings - female runway models actively avoid toning too much.

[Gurifu]

Agree with others that there's no mechanical link between beauty and Charisma. If you're looking for a rule, I suggest the following:

"Curse of Ugliness: The character has disadvantage on Diplomacy and Deceive checks against creatures of the same Creature Type except when specifically using their ugliness to their advantage (e.g. winning the affections of a leper or disguising oneself as a homeless beggar)."

[Envyus]

Don't think this guy is pretty but he has 25 charisma.

http://dnd.wizards.com/sites/default/files/media/styles/mosaic_thumbnail/public/images/mosaic/Orcus_Mosaic_Thumb.jpg?itok=JCrFwyZ0

[RickAllison]

Don't think this guy is pretty but he has 25 charisma.

http://dnd.wizards.com/sites/default/files/media/styles/mosaic_thumbnail/public/images/mosaic/Orcus_Mosaic_Thumb.jpg?itok=JCrFwyZ0

Didn't you know Orcus was quite the singer? What about his classic "Don't you (Kill My Zombies)"? His beautiful and haunting "I'm Dreaming of a Wight Christmas"? And who can forget his spiritual magnum opus, "I Wraith You Up"?

[Asmotherion]

Didn't you know Orcus was quite the singer? What about his classic "Don't you (Kill My Zombies)"? His beautiful and haunting "I'm Dreaming of a Wight Christmas"? And who can forget his spiritual magnum opus, "I Wraith You Up"?

Well, he is quite literally... hot! :3

[Envyus]

Well, he is quite literally... hot! :3

Actually he is not. Orcus does not have a single fire ability, spell or trait.

If it was Imix you could say that. Speaking of Imix has 23 charisma and he is just a big pillar of fire.

http://i.imgur.com/Q7nHMx6.jpg

[Occasional Sage]

From a mechanical perspective, how would you treat a curse of ugliness?

Disadvantage on social skill checks in which you attempt to sway others.


Even if you don't think Charisma influences appearance, a curse of ugliness can still give disadvantage to charisma checks. It doesn't change who you are, but can easily (by definition perhaps) influence how others react to you.


Yes, but not how you react to others. If you try to change my mind, the fact that I'm ugly doesn't make me less confident.

[Armored Walrus]

How did we get two pages in to a question about whether appearance mechanically affects Charisma in 5e without anyone referencing the "horrible scar" effect on the permanent injury table? Clearly Cha is expected to be influenced by appearance to an extent.

[mgshamster]

How did we get two pages in to a question about whether appearance mechanically affects Charisma in 5e without anyone referencing the "horrible scar" effect on the permanent injury table? Clearly Cha is expected to be influenced by appearance to an extent.

Thanks!

I thought it had some influence, just wasn't sure what. This shows that it does have a minimal amount, instead of zero amount.

[Armored Walrus]

No problem. Just recently returned to tabletop RPGs after almost 20 years away. Just got done devouring the DMG, so my fresh eyes must have been an advantage here.

[Asmotherion]

Actually he is not. Orcus does not have a single fire ability, spell or trait.

If it was Imix you could say that. Speaking of Imix has 23 charisma and he is just a big pillar of fire.

http://i.imgur.com/Q7nHMx6.jpg

You lore-savy ruiner of jokes :(