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Fixer
2007-06-26, 03:48 PM
I was looking over the list of spells for conjurers in Core and for 0 level spells they have Acid Splash. I decided to give them another one, just for giggles.

If there was to be a Summon Monster 0, what creatures would it summon?

Celestial Canary?
Celestial Dire Hamster?
Fiendish Bunny?

Skyserpent
2007-06-26, 03:49 PM
wouldn't this go into Homebrew Design?

Fax Celestis
2007-06-26, 03:50 PM
Speak of the devil. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10827) (Courtesy of Peregrine)

asqwasqw
2007-06-26, 03:51 PM
Summon monster 1 summons creatures of CR 1/2 and 1/4, and maybe even 1, so there should be creatures with CR 1/8 and 1/10. Bats, tiny monsterous centipede, rats, and toads.

FireSpark
2007-06-26, 03:55 PM
I Summon a fiendish dire tick! :tongue:

Fixer
2007-06-26, 03:55 PM
Speak of the devil. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10827) (Courtesy of Peregrine)

That wasn't what I was going for. I was looking for more of a list of creatures that could go into the spell. That spell is even more useless than normal.

Aquillion
2007-06-26, 03:56 PM
The thing is, even a 1/8 CR creature might still have some use as a distraction or minion, more than a level 0 spell is worth. I think any Summon Monster 0 would have to take Peregrine's example and add more restrictions--the caster gets no control over the monster, say, and/or a 1 round duration.

There is cantrip to attract a single tiny vermin, isn't there? I vaguely remember seeing that somewhere... but that doesn't summon the vermin out of nowhere, so it has no duration.

Fixer
2007-06-26, 04:03 PM
Level 0 spells are not completely useless. There are spells that do damage, prevent actions for 1 round, move objects around. Spells so minor that they CAN'T do anything in combat qualify under prestidigitation.

So a summon monster 0 would summon something very weak, but still useful in some very minor fashion. It would not be terribly useful in a fight but it wouldn't be useless.

Neek
2007-06-26, 04:12 PM
(This does need to be moved to Homebrew, but my post isn't just going to say that. Give content, not posting rules).

I've found in some instances of the splat books where level 0 spells aren't just cantrips--magical effects that don't effect much--but also spells that have little abusability because of their inflexibility, or spells that are weaker than some of the weakest 1st level spells. I normally run cantrips as also being magical spells which are used as instructions of what that school or subschool can do. Practice spells, if you will.

This cantrip, however, fits with the basic premise of what a cantrip should do. You can't summon a Fiendish Dragonfly and expect it do much for six seconds. :P

You forgot Celestial Frog and Fiendish Newt. :)

F.H. Zebedee
2007-06-26, 04:18 PM
Summon Samurai?

Delaney Gale
2007-06-26, 04:25 PM
A fiendish squirrel would be truly terrifying. You've all seen them looking at you from the trees with their little beady eyes... they must be plotting something! I know it! One day the squirrels will rule us all!

Fixer
2007-06-26, 04:53 PM
Ok, how do I get the thread moved? The whole homebrewed/gaming forum distinction doesn't seem too terribly clear to me as I see stuff in here that I think should be in homebrew but it remains for a long time.

For an idea, I will now suggest the spell and see who says what about it.

Summon Monster 0

Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level: Brd 0, Clr 0, Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 0 level list on the accompanying Summon Monster table. You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can change that choice each time you cast the spell.
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them.
When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.
Arcane Focus: A tiny bag and a small (not necessarily lit) candle.

0 Level
Celestial Mouse LG (use Rat statistics)
Celestial Frog LG
Celestial Weasel NG
Celestial Rabbit NG (Use Rat Statistics)
Celestial Cat CG
Celestial Canary CG (Use bat statistics)
Fiendish Rat LE
Fiendish Squirrel LE (use Rat statistics)
Fiendish Monstrous Centipede, Tiny NE
Fiendish Bat NE
Fiendish Monstrous Scorpion, Tiny CE
Fiendish Monstrous Spider, Tiny CE
Fiendish Salmon CE (see below)
Fiendish Snake, Tiny viper CE

Salmon

Tiny Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 1/2d8 (2 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: swim 50 ft.
Armor Class: 17 (+4 size, +3 Dex), touch 17, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-4
Attack: Bite +3 melee (0)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (0)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 3
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +2, Swim +11
Feats: Weapon Finesse
Environment: Cold aquatic
Organization: School
Challenge Rating: 1/8
Advancement: -

martyboy74
2007-06-26, 05:00 PM
You do realize that you effectively listed the Fiendish Rat (LE) twice?

puppyavenger
2007-06-26, 05:29 PM
imagine if you got an at will item that makes them permenent



feindish squirril swarm!!!!!!!

nerulean
2007-06-26, 08:58 PM
Remember that any summoned creature, however miserable and pathetic, can still provide a flanking bonus, so if you time things right with your rogue then it counts as a free sneak attack.

Also, most entertaining (if somewhat inefficient) use of low-level Summon monster? Gold and silver great wyrm facing off against a group of mooks. Either could quite happily sit on the entire lot and kill them in a round or two.

Gold: Summon monster I in the middle of their little tea party.
Silver: Detonate said monster.
Monster: BOOM.

Nebo_
2007-06-26, 09:17 PM
Remember that any summoned creature, however miserable and pathetic, can still provide a flanking bonus, so if you time things right with your rogue then it counts as a free sneak attack.


All of those creatures are tiny, so they don't threaten and therefore cannot flank.

Matthew
2007-06-27, 08:15 PM
Summon Samurai?

Heh, better make that Summon Complete Warrior Samurai or you may have actual balance issues...

This is definitely a Summon Rabbit Out of a Hat type Spell.

Jack_Simth
2007-06-27, 08:55 PM
Celestial/Fiendish creatures all have an Int score of at least 3 - which means they understand Common by default. They also become Magical Beasts, and so gain Darkvision.

Creatures have a bonus to Hide based on how small they are.

At 1 round/Level, a Fiendish insect is remarkably usful for scouting ... if you can quickly arrange some sort of code for "danger" and "safe" - shouldn't be hard.

bugsysservant
2007-06-27, 09:23 PM
Not a bad spell, but I would recommend a few changes. The first would be to remove all venomous creatures (I believe the snake, scorpion, centipede, and spider fall under this category). The second would be to make the duration one round, or at least greatly turned down, on the order of one round/four levels. Cantrips don't follow the standard progression of spells, in that they are substantially weaker than their first level counterparts, more so than any other level. Virtually every damage dealing spell in the game increases in power with level, ray of frost does not. Enchantments tend to either affect more targets or have longer durations or both. Daze stays constant. Cantrips are intentionally very weak in comparison to even first level spells, and a spell that can summon a poisonous creature for multiple rounds using only a zero level spell slot is too much.

SurlySeraph
2007-06-27, 11:41 PM
Summon Samurai?

Nahh. Summon Soulblade.

If not for the extraplanar requirement, I'd say Summon Asthmatic Kobold.

bugsysservant
2007-06-28, 01:06 AM
Awww... No summon Warmage? Although to keep up with the other creatures you could summon, I supose it would have to summon multiple Warmages to be a viable option.

asqwasqw
2007-06-28, 01:32 AM
Celestial/Fiendish creatures all have an Int score of at least 3 - which means they understand Common by default. They also become Magical Beasts, and so gain Darkvision.

Creatures have a bonus to Hide based on how small they are.

At 1 round/Level, a Fiendish insect is remarkably usful for scouting ... if you can quickly arrange some sort of code for "danger" and "safe" - shouldn't be hard.

Except the summon monster duration is very short... what scouting can you do in 3 rounds?

Jack_Simth
2007-06-28, 06:17 AM
Except the summon monster duration is very short... what scouting can you do in 3 rounds?
"Is there anything that looks immediately hostile on the other side of this door/around that corner/in that room/at the bottom of this pit/above that hole in the cieling/through this portal?"

You don't need to get the entire layout of the house to be a useful scout.

asqwasqw
2007-06-28, 06:35 AM
It still probably will be seen. A tiny creature is a bout the size of a cat. Also hard to communicate with summoned creatures. But I see your point.

Jack_Simth
2007-06-28, 04:00 PM
A Tiny (of the Core animals: Cat, Hawk, Lizard, Monkey, Owl, Rat, Raven, Tiny Viper, Weasel) creature has a +8 to Hide. A Diminutive (of the core Animals: Toad, Bat) creature has a +12 to hide.

Do remember: This is a Cantrip, available Extended at level 1. At level 3, it can last as long as 6 rounds. At that level, something with a +12 Hide Check (or better - Hide is Dex based, useable untrained; a Bat has a +14 Hide check, no ranks, no racial bonus; just size and dex) is going to be kinda tricky to Spot. At 7th or 10th, not so much of a problem for someone with max ranks in Spot, but at 3rd? It's not an easy roll. Even if they do see it, though, they gain no surprise - okay, they killed a worthless summon. Boo hoo. The act of killing it is liable to give away the fact of their presence.

Also:
Communicating with a Celestial/Fiendish creature isn't hard at all:

Intelligence: A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).(Emphasis added).

The Fiendish and Celestial Creature templates both include the line: "Abilities: Same as the base creature, but Intelligence is at least 3." - but they don't specify a language - so it defaults to Common.

They understand common, and they must obey you (as they are Summoned). If you order them to make a particular pattern of movement for the results of a test, and you're set for them to answer a question in a yes/no format (Was there anything that might be dangerous to us on the other side of this door? Jump once for Yes, twice for No....).

Aquillion
2007-06-28, 04:22 PM
This is definitely a Summon Rabbit Out of a Hat type Spell.Spell: "Hey, Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!"

Level 0.
Spell focus: A hat.

This spell pulls an object out of a hat. To determine what object, roll d100 on table 6B, Table of Things That are Definitely Not Rabbits.

Pronounceable
2007-06-28, 05:09 PM
Celestial Slug: Summon onto the dinner table. Fun for all...

Fiendish Mosquito: Send into the sleeping friends ear. Fun for all again...