How much to stack the deck for a Fighter 10 vs Spellcaster 20

[Shaofoo]

So wanting to see what would be needed in the inverse of the popular topic Fighter 20 vs Warlock 10 I was wondering the inverse, and I am sure that everyone will easily give the spellcaster whoever it is the win because magic beats everything.

So instead of wondering how can the fighter beat someone 10 levels above I want to know what kind of deck stacking would the Fighter need for the odds to be in his favor.

Of course I would like to lay some ground rules. This is using a Wizard 20 as an example.


Neither side can have prep time, the characters come into existence as is without anything that would require time investment, so no Simulacrum, Contingency, divinations or the like. This is to show the class itself.
The Wizard can have any expensive spell component that he wants but only one copy and has a spellbook with all the spells and can prepare any before the battle. Otherwise the wizard only gets his starting gear and nothing more.
The Wizard will not be compromised in tactics, he is to be played skillfully, saying that the Wizard needs to play poorly for the Fighter to beat him is not a valid answer
The fight is to the death, any party leaving the whiteroom (teleport, plane shift, demiplane, etc...) willingly is disqualified and forcing the opponent to leave the whiteroom will disqualify you.
Any tactic that requires DM intervention to resolve is banned, anything that happens should be written in the book, improvisation is not allowed.


That being said what should the Fighter get to be able to beat the Wizard, he can get any amount of magic items or mundane items or hired help or spells as he wishes (anything in the PHB can be bought although I would place a cap on the hired help, lets just not say that he has 500 Mercenaries and shooting at the Wizard all at once). I would say that he can start off 5 feet from the Wizard or 600 feet from the Wizard (the middle will give the advantage to the Wizard I assume). There can also be a surprise round given to the Fighter but no sleeping Wizard unless things are so bad that he needs it.

Basically I want to give as little as needed to the Fighter so he can try to beat up the Wizard.

[Misterwhisper]

So wanting to see what would be needed in the inverse of the popular topic Fighter 20 vs Warlock 10 I was wondering the inverse, and I am sure that everyone will easily give the spellcaster whoever it is the win because magic beats everything.

So instead of wondering how can the fighter beat someone 10 levels above I want to know what kind of deck stacking would the Fighter need for the odds to be in his favor.

Of course I would like to lay some ground rules. This is using a Wizard 20 as an example.


Neither side can have prep time, the characters come into existence as is without anything that would require time investment, so no Simulacrum, Contingency, divinations or the like. This is to show the class itself.
The Wizard can have any expensive spell component that he wants but only one copy and has a spellbook with all the spells and can prepare any before the battle. Otherwise the wizard only gets his starting gear and nothing more.
The Wizard will not be compromised in tactics, he is to be played skillfully, saying that the Wizard needs to play poorly for the Fighter to beat him is not a valid answer
The fight is to the death, any party leaving the whiteroom (teleport, plane shift, demiplane, etc...) willingly is disqualified and forcing the opponent to leave the whiteroom will disqualify you.
Any tactic that requires DM intervention to resolve is banned, anything that happens should be written in the book, improvisation is not allowed.


That being said what should the Fighter get to be able to beat the Wizard, he can get any amount of magic items or mundane items or hired help or spells as he wishes (anything in the PHB can be bought although I would place a cap on the hired help, lets just not say that he has 500 Mercenaries and shooting at the Wizard all at once). I would say that he can start off 5 feet from the Wizard or 600 feet from the Wizard (the middle will give the advantage to the Wizard I assume). There can also be a surprise round given to the Fighter but no sleeping Wizard unless things are so bad that he needs it.

Basically I want to give as little as needed to the Fighter so he can try to beat up the Wizard.


Not going to be possible.

The fighter will be out of the fight on one initiative pass.

[RulesJD]

EK level 10, Sentinel feat.

Give it a Scroll of Anti-Magic Field.

That's pretty much it. First Action, cast spell, Action Surge -> Grapple. Even if it misses, can still use Sent to keep Wizard in the field.

Or, a Luck Blade with at least 1 charge. Wish -> Anti-magic Field. Done.

[tieren]

Not going to be possible.

The fighter will be out of the fight on one initiative pass.

If fighter wins initiative he can grapple the wizard and force a heavy helm on him preventing the wizard from casting any spells due to lack of armor proficiency.

[Misterwhisper]

EK level 10, Sentinel feat.

Give it a Scroll of Anti-Magic Field.

That's pretty much it. First Action, cast spell, Action Surge -> Grapple. Even if it misses, can still use Sent to keep Wizard in the field.

Or, a Luck Blade with at least 1 charge. Wish -> Anti-magic Field. Done.

1. Counterspell.

2. No level 10 character has a luckblade.

[Misterwhisper]

If fighter wins initiative he can grapple the wizard and force a heavy helm on him preventing the wizard from casting any spells due to lack of armor proficiency.

Helmet is not a piece of armor in the book, would not work.
Also there is nowhere it says you can force equipment onto someone in a grapple.

[Shaofoo]

Not going to be possible.

The fighter will be out of the fight on one initiative pass.

If that is a problem then say the Fighter gets a surprise round on the wizard.


EK level 10, Sentinel feat.

Give it a Scroll of Anti-Magic Field.

That's pretty much it. First Action, cast spell, Action Surge -> Grapple. Even if it misses, can still use Sent to keep Wizard in the field.

Or, a Luck Blade with at least 1 charge. Wish -> Anti-magic Field. Done.

That would need the Fighter to start next to the Wizard since Antimagic only has a 10 foot radius.

[RulesJD]

1. Counterspell.

2. No level 10 character has a luckblade.

1. Counter-spell:

Fighter gets a surprise round apparently so Wizard doesn't get a Reaction. No Counter-spell.

Alternatively, Fighter starts behind a wall (no LoS), casts Anti-Magic Field, then walks around wall.

Would still be extremely difficult against a Divination Wizard due to Portent rolls

Without Anti-Magic Field the Fighter stands zero chance.

2. Luck Blade

I take it you haven't played Curse of Strahd yet...

[AvatarVecna]

Variant Human Champion 10, Archery/Close Quarters Shooter Fighting Style. Feats/ASIs: Dex +2, Alert, Resilient (Wisdom), Sharpshooter. Equipment: Oathbow, Bracers of Archery, lots of arrows.

AC: 16 (Studded Leather, Dex 18)
HP: 84 (Average, Con 14)
Initiative: +11

Gets 2 attacks

Oathbow Attack: +13 (w/ advantage)
Oathbow Damage: 1d8+3d6+6 (crit 19-20)

Oathbow Attack (Sharpshooter): +8 (w/ advantage)
Oathbow Damage (Sharpshooter): 1d8+3d6+16 (crit 19-20)

Assuming the Wizard has AC 16 without Shield. (Mage Armor, Dex 16) and 142 HP (average, Con 16).

Fighter, during surprise round, uses Action Surge to attack 4 times with Sharpshooter tradeoff for an average of 30.0525 damage each time (no Shield spell, since the Wizard is surprised). Assuming the Fighter wins initiative (pretty good chances, since their bonus is pretty high), they attack twice more (this time without tradeoff) for 21.2775 damage each (assuming the Wizard uses Shield to increase their AC). This should have the Wizard down 162.765 HP, which is more than they have. If the Wizard has beat the odds and is still up (or has better long-term defenses than I've attributed to them), the Fighter basically loses, because Power Word Kill is a thing that exists for fights exactly like this; even if the Wizard doesn't have that particular killer spell, there's plenty of others that I'm sure the Wizard has, so killing the Wizard before they get a chance to get a spell off is the best course of action.

This method does require the Fighter to have a way of sneaking up on the Wizard with (at best) a +8 Stealth check, requires the Fighter to win initiative, requires a Wizard with (what seems to me) pretty flimsy long-term defensive buffs up, and requires two magic items (one of which is fairly rare for 10th level adventurers).

EDIT: Just realized that the title says "Spellcaster", not Wizard, and that basically every other full caster will have more HP than the Wizard, with either equal or superior AC.

[JRutterbush]

2. Luck Blade

I take it you haven't played Curse of Strahd yet...

Dammit, neither have I, and my DM just started running it for us. Careful with throwing spoilers out like that.

[comk59]

I'm just going to say here what I said in the earlier thread.


Use action surge to shove him prone and use a garrote to strangle him into unconsciousness. Then, while he's unconscious, use a sharp knife to remove his tounge, eyes, fingers, and big toes. Maybe use a healing pot to stop the bleeding.

After that, just do whatever with him.

But, since he hasn't had time to cast clone in this instance, you can just keep strangling. If we assume the fighter has max strength, that's a dc 17?

[Vogonjeltz]

So wanting to see what would be needed in the inverse of the popular topic Fighter 20 vs Warlock 10 I was wondering the inverse, and I am sure that everyone will easily give the spellcaster whoever it is the win because magic beats everything.

So instead of wondering how can the fighter beat someone 10 levels above I want to know what kind of deck stacking would the Fighter need for the odds to be in his favor.

Of course I would like to lay some ground rules. This is using a Wizard 20 as an example.


Neither side can have prep time, the characters come into existence as is without anything that would require time investment, so no Simulacrum, Contingency, divinations or the like. This is to show the class itself.
The Wizard can have any expensive spell component that he wants but only one copy and has a spellbook with all the spells and can prepare any before the battle. Otherwise the wizard only gets his starting gear and nothing more.
The Wizard will not be compromised in tactics, he is to be played skillfully, saying that the Wizard needs to play poorly for the Fighter to beat him is not a valid answer
The fight is to the death, any party leaving the whiteroom (teleport, plane shift, demiplane, etc...) willingly is disqualified and forcing the opponent to leave the whiteroom will disqualify you.
Any tactic that requires DM intervention to resolve is banned, anything that happens should be written in the book, improvisation is not allowed.


That being said what should the Fighter get to be able to beat the Wizard, he can get any amount of magic items or mundane items or hired help or spells as he wishes (anything in the PHB can be bought although I would place a cap on the hired help, lets just not say that he has 500 Mercenaries and shooting at the Wizard all at once). I would say that he can start off 5 feet from the Wizard or 600 feet from the Wizard (the middle will give the advantage to the Wizard I assume). There can also be a surprise round given to the Fighter but no sleeping Wizard unless things are so bad that he needs it.

Basically I want to give as little as needed to the Fighter so he can try to beat up the Wizard.

Using no magic items and purely normal gear a Fighter 10 (class does not matter) is capable of killing the Wizard 20 in 1-3 rounds.

[MaxWilson]

So wanting to see what would be needed in the inverse of the popular topic Fighter 20 vs Warlock 10 I was wondering the inverse, and I am sure that everyone will easily give the spellcaster whoever it is the win because magic beats everything.

So instead of wondering how can the fighter beat someone 10 levels above I want to know what kind of deck stacking would the Fighter need for the odds to be in his favor.

Of course I would like to lay some ground rules. This is using a Wizard 20 as an example.


Neither side can have prep time, the characters come into existence as is without anything that would require time investment, so no Simulacrum, Contingency, divinations or the like. This is to show the class itself.
The Wizard can have any expensive spell component that he wants but only one copy and has a spellbook with all the spells and can prepare any before the battle. Otherwise the wizard only gets his starting gear and nothing more.
The Wizard will not be compromised in tactics, he is to be played skillfully, saying that the Wizard needs to play poorly for the Fighter to beat him is not a valid answer
The fight is to the death, any party leaving the whiteroom (teleport, plane shift, demiplane, etc...) willingly is disqualified and forcing the opponent to leave the whiteroom will disqualify you.
Any tactic that requires DM intervention to resolve is banned, anything that happens should be written in the book, improvisation is not allowed.


That being said what should the Fighter get to be able to beat the Wizard, he can get any amount of magic items or mundane items or hired help or spells as he wishes (anything in the PHB can be bought although I would place a cap on the hired help, lets just not say that he has 500 Mercenaries and shooting at the Wizard all at once). I would say that he can start off 5 feet from the Wizard or 600 feet from the Wizard (the middle will give the advantage to the Wizard I assume). There can also be a surprise round given to the Fighter but no sleeping Wizard unless things are so bad that he needs it.

Basically I want to give as little as needed to the Fighter so he can try to beat up the Wizard.

If you stack the deck in this simple way, the Fighter wins:

The fighter is the (male) wizard's precocious nine-year-old daughter. The wizard sees this and chooses to exit the arena rather than kill her, thus disqualifying himself. She wins by default.

[Shaofoo]

If you stack the deck in this simple way, the Fighter wins:

The fighter is the (male) wizard's precocious nine-year-old daughter. The wizard sees this and chooses to exit the arena rather than kill her, thus disqualifying himself. She wins by default.

Both the fighter and the wizard come into existence as soon as the fight starts, there is no time before the fight only the now. Unless you are saying that the fighter and the wizard colluded together so they can fix the match.

[MaxWilson]

Both the fighter and the wizard come into existence as soon as the fight starts, there is no time before the fight only the now. Unless you are saying that the fighter and the wizard colluded together so they can fix the match.

What. I don't see how you could possibly collude with each other to arrange the situation I posited. If you're colluding, it's kind of too late to arrange the situation...

[Giant2005]

Does the no improvisation rule mean you can't use simple techniques like using a ball-gag, blindfold and manacles to temporarily turn the Wizard into a non-wizard? If not, the Fighter could fairly easily neutralize the Wizard within a single turn.

Either way, some of the poisons in the DMG would make short work of a level 20 Wizard. They are extremely expensive though... But I figure, if you have the money, you will never find a better time to use it than when facing those kinds of odds.

[Shaofoo]

What. I don't see how you could possibly collude with each other to arrange the situation I posited. If you're colluding, it's kind of too late to arrange the situation...

Well since they didn't exist but they could be anything then they agreed to be related so that could cause some family troubles, but then again if they didn't exist then they couldn't agree. SO basically this can only happen if the random background generator used to create the character happens to land on being related.


Does the no improvisation rule mean you can't use simple techniques like using a ball-gag, blindfold and manacles to temporarily turn the Wizard into a non-wizard? If not, the Fighter could fairly easily neutralize the Wizard within a single turn.

There is no way you can just apply any of these things to a Wizard without it being an unknown check. The point is to avoid DM intervention since that can skew the results way too much (One Dm might allow you to put a manacle on a grappled opponent while another would not and both be right).

[Giant2005]

There is no way you can just apply any of these things to a Wizard without it being an unknown check. The point is to avoid DM intervention since that can skew the results way too much (One Dm might allow you to put a manacle on a grappled opponent while another would not and both be right).

Fair enough. A Wizard could be fairly effectively neutralized with some Malice poison for 250g, but if you want to do it with pure damage, then the Purple Worm poison would chew through those hit points extremely fast (but comes in at a hefty 2,000g).

[Gurifu]

If the fight takes place underwater in pitch darkness, and both characters are in the state in which you find most real player characters of their class and level (which is to say, woefully under-prepared by internet munchkin standards), I think the fighter has a good shot. A lot of spells require sight and most spells require a verbal component, whereas the fighter can just bash away.

[AvatarVecna]

Using no magic items and purely normal gear a Fighter 10 (class does not matter) is capable of killing the Wizard 20 in 1-3 rounds.

Oh absolutely. The problem is the existence of Save-Or-Die spells (and to a lesser extent, No-Save-Just-Die spells, which in this edition is basically just Power Word Kill); if the Fighter doesn't kill the Wizard before the Wizard gets a turn, they're running the risk that the Wizard uses a SoD. Power Word Kill just straight-up kills this Fighter, period. Hell, the Wizard is so much higher level than the Fighter, they could use blasting spells (as inefficient as that normally is); assuming Con 16, the Fighter will have roughly 94 HP, a single Meteor Swarm, even if the Fighter makes the Save, they're looking at an average of 70 HP damage, reducing them to 24 HP (or less if they're an evoker).

[Grek]

1000gp worth of elephants.

[NewDM]

So wanting to see what would be needed in the inverse of the popular topic Fighter 20 vs Warlock 10 I was wondering the inverse, and I am sure that everyone will easily give the spellcaster whoever it is the win because magic beats everything.

So instead of wondering how can the fighter beat someone 10 levels above I want to know what kind of deck stacking would the Fighter need for the odds to be in his favor.

Of course I would like to lay some ground rules. This is using a Wizard 20 as an example.


Neither side can have prep time, the characters come into existence as is without anything that would require time investment, so no Simulacrum, Contingency, divinations or the like. This is to show the class itself.
The Wizard can have any expensive spell component that he wants but only one copy and has a spellbook with all the spells and can prepare any before the battle. Otherwise the wizard only gets his starting gear and nothing more.
The Wizard will not be compromised in tactics, he is to be played skillfully, saying that the Wizard needs to play poorly for the Fighter to beat him is not a valid answer
The fight is to the death, any party leaving the whiteroom (teleport, plane shift, demiplane, etc...) willingly is disqualified and forcing the opponent to leave the whiteroom will disqualify you.
Any tactic that requires DM intervention to resolve is banned, anything that happens should be written in the book, improvisation is not allowed.


That being said what should the Fighter get to be able to beat the Wizard, he can get any amount of magic items or mundane items or hired help or spells as he wishes (anything in the PHB can be bought although I would place a cap on the hired help, lets just not say that he has 500 Mercenaries and shooting at the Wizard all at once). I would say that he can start off 5 feet from the Wizard or 600 feet from the Wizard (the middle will give the advantage to the Wizard I assume). There can also be a surprise round given to the Fighter but no sleeping Wizard unless things are so bad that he needs it.

Basically I want to give as little as needed to the Fighter so he can try to beat up the Wizard.

I'm not going to bother because the Wizards (or other casters) spells are part of their class features as well as expected wealth by level. In the case of Wizards and Simulacrum they can simply cast Wish->Simulacrum to avoid any cost or material component. So they would always have a fully charged Simulacrum and a clone set up somewhere.

[Human Paragon 3]

You might be able to kite the wizard if you take ritual caster and find steed, then share haste with it and attack at range with a longbow, shooting and running and shooting and running. If the wizard retreats, the fighter wins, right?

[Shaofoo]

You might be able to kite the wizard if you take ritual caster and find steed, then share haste with it and attack at range with a longbow, shooting and running and shooting and running. If the wizard retreats, the fighter wins, right?

There is no preparation time, the fighter will be unable to cast Find Steed unless you expect him to start casting a 10 minute spell at the start of a fight. Also you must be actually outside the arena to lose, just moving back is not enough, the arena could have a huge but limited area around, you can only reach the arena either with a teleport out of the arena or moving into another dimension.

[Asmotherion]

In any case a level 10 character wins against a level 20 character, no matter the class, It is either bad character design on the part of the level 20 character, combined with an extreamly optimised lv 10 character, or just plain bad luck/good luck respectivelly.

In this case for example, the fighter is only 1 spell away from loss (finger of death, disintegrade, meteor swarm, you name it).

I am more concerned that unfair debate topics are apparently so interesting in here that the 2 top threads are this one and the one with the Fighter 20 vs Warlock 10.

10 levels is too muck of a gap.

[NewDM]

In any case a level 10 character wins against a level 20 character, no matter the class, It is either bad character design on the part of the level 20 character, combined with an extreamly optimised lv 10 character, or just plain bad luck/good luck respectivelly.

In this case for example, the fighter is only 1 spell away from loss (finger of death, disintegrade, meteor swarm, you name it).

I am more concerned that unfair debate topics are apparently so interesting in here that the 2 top threads are this one and the one with the Fighter 20 vs Warlock 10.

10 levels is too muck of a gap.

Its so interesting because in the other thread the Fighter is actually losing to a few builds. In this case there really isn't much you can give a Fighter 10 to get them to win, unless they are a spell caster and even then its iffy.

Also in the other thread the Fighter builds ARE optimized.

[Giant2005]

Its so interesting because in the other thread the Fighter is actually losing to a few builds. In this case there really isn't much you can give a Fighter 10 to get them to win, unless they are a spell caster and even then its iffy.

Also in the other thread the Fighter builds ARE optimized.

Firstly, you (and maybe only one other) are the only ones that think the Wizard has a chance against the Fighter in the other thread. Everyone else and the math agree that the Wizard dies within the first two rounds.
Secondly, the Fighter builds are far from optimized. The Champion's strongest fighting form is archery. Yet his Dexterity is only 18. I think you will have a hard time trying to convince anyone that it is optimized when it hasn't even bothered to max out its main attack stat.
Thirdly, all you need to do to give the Fighter 10 the win is give him some decent poison. Even a level 10 Fighter is likely to have the Initiative advantage over a level 20 Wizard, and all he needs is one turn to cement his victory. The level 10 Fighter (with Poison) is far more likely to succeed against a level 20 Wizard than a level 10 Wizard is against a level 20 Fighter.

[AvatarVecna]

Firstly, you (and maybe only one other) are the only ones that think the Wizard has a chance against the Fighter in the other thread. Everyone else and the math agree that the Wizard dies within the first two rounds.
Secondly, the Fighter builds are far from optimized. The Champion's strongest fighting form is archery. Yet his Dexterity is only 18. I think you will have a hard time trying to convince anyone that it is optimized when it hasn't even bothered to max out its main attack stat.
Thirdly, all you need to do to give the Fighter 10 the win is give him some decent poison. Even a level 10 Fighter is likely to have the Initiative advantage over a level 20 Wizard, and all he needs is one turn to cement his victory. The level 10 Fighter (with Poison) is far more likely to succeed against a level 20 Wizard than a level 10 Wizard is against a level 20 Fighter.

1) The "Champion" in question has Dex 20. I mean, it's still not super-optimized, because it's still a Champion, but it's at least got that going for it.

2) The druid build that spams Conjure Animals and hides underground as an Earth Elemental does a pretty good job; they kill the fight with their action economy abuse, unless the Fighter gets extraordinarily lucky. Now, most every other build is having problems, but them's the shakes.

3) Between a surprise round, the first round (assuming Fighter can win initiative), and an Action Surge, the Fighter can get either 6 or 8 attacks in (depending on if they have a dependable source of bonus action attacks); if they can't take the caster out with those 6/8 attacks (in other words, before the Wizard gets a chance to act), the caster likely wins. There's just too many spells that let casters completely no-sell or straight-up murder non-casters, particularly with this kind of level disparity.

[Zalabim]

2) The druid build that spams Conjure Animals and hides underground as an Earth Elemental does a pretty good job; they kill the fight with their action economy abuse, unless the Fighter gets extraordinarily lucky. Now, most every other build is having problems, but them's the shakes.

Conjure Animals is a beast, but it's easier to tell you here that Elemental Shape takes both uses of Wild Shape, and while the Champion doesn't have much going for it, it does have 45' movement that would let it dance around many kinds of Challenge 1/4 animals to buy time for survivor.

[AvatarVecna]

Conjure Animals is a beast, but it's easier to tell you here that Elemental Shape takes both uses of Wild Shape, and while the Champion doesn't have much going for it, it does have 45' movement that would let it dance around many kinds of Challenge 1/4 animals to buy time for survivor.

Indeed, although being surrounded by CR 1/4 creatures makes "running away" more difficult; at the very least, we're looking at several AoOs.

[mgshamster]

I'm not going to bother because the Wizards (or other casters) spells are part of their class features as well as expected wealth by level. In the case of Wizards and Simulacrum they can simply cast Wish->Simulacrum to avoid any cost or material component. So they would always have a fully charged Simulacrum and a clone set up somewhere.

There is no expected wealth by level in this edition. The closest you get is the table on DMG 38, and that's an optional rule for the DM to use.

For the purposes of this thread, the wizard cannot have a clone, as it requires a 120 day incubation time. Wish can only bypass that if you go beyond the normal non-risky capabilities of the spell - and then it's a risk. And heck, as long as you're doing that, might as well just wish your opponent into a trout and watch him drown in air.

The easiest way is to use RulesJD's tactic. Wizard survives round 1 by whatever means (or wins initiative). Wizard Wall of Force traps the fighter. Wizard wishes for a simulacrum (bypassing component cost and casting time). Sim then casts cloud kill. Wizard then casts Forcecage (solid box, requires 1500 gp spell component of that's allowed for this exercise) or a second Wall of Force (spherical) or even Otiluke's Resiliant Sphere. The FC/WoF/ORS will trap the fighter inside with the Cloudkill, and they don't have enough HP to survive the concentration duration.

The only way for the fighter to win this is to get out enough damage on round 1 to take out the wizard before they can cast.

[comk59]

You know, this thread may need actual builds.

That being said, does being restrained have any impact on your ability to cast spells?

[Cazero]

That being said, does being restrained have any impact on your ability to cast spells?
Technicaly no, but disarming a spell pouch, disarming a spell focus, and a broad variety of improvised actions do.

[NewDM]

Firstly, you (and maybe only one other) are the only ones that think the Wizard has a chance against the Fighter in the other thread. Everyone else and the math agree that the Wizard dies within the first two rounds.
Secondly, the Fighter builds are far from optimized. The Champion's strongest fighting form is archery. Yet his Dexterity is only 18. I think you will have a hard time trying to convince anyone that it is optimized when it hasn't even bothered to max out its main attack stat.
Thirdly, all you need to do to give the Fighter 10 the win is give him some decent poison. Even a level 10 Fighter is likely to have the Initiative advantage over a level 20 Wizard, and all he needs is one turn to cement his victory. The level 10 Fighter (with Poison) is far more likely to succeed against a level 20 Wizard than a level 10 Wizard is against a level 20 Fighter.

Sorry no. I've proved it with the math. There are also several other builds from other classes that roflstomp the Fighter 20.


There is no expected wealth by level in this edition. The closest you get is the table on DMG 38, and that's an optional rule for the DM to use.

Yep and in the average game you will not acquire any wealth at all.:smallamused: that means the Fighter can't have anything but starting armor and weapons. The caster however will have all the money they want because they can wish it into existence through their Simulacrum. Except they both popped into existence 5 minutes ago. Every normal Fighter will have maxed weapons and armor by 10th and every caster will have enough wealth to have at least one clone and one Simulacrum. So that's one of the main reasons I'm not participating. Its a completely unreal challenge on both sides.


For the purposes of this thread, the wizard cannot have a clone, as it requires a 120 day incubation time. Wish can only bypass that if you go beyond the normal non-risky capabilities of the spell - and then it's a risk. And heck, as long as you're doing that, might as well just wish your opponent into a trout and watch him drown in air.

And? Are you saying the Wizard didn't have 120 days as a level 17+ caster? That's nonsense. Wish can True Polymorph as the spell or just regular polymorph since a trout is a Beast. Heck you could do any 8th or less spell and instawin against the Fighter. I mean Force Cage + Wish (Imprisonment) is insta win. Contingency (When in danger of dying; Otilukes Sphere/Wall of force) to bypass initiative. See below for another tactic.


The easiest way is to use RulesJD's tactic. Wizard survives round 1 by whatever means (or wins initiative). Wizard Wall of Force traps the fighter. Wizard wishes for a simulacrum (bypassing component cost and casting time). Sim then casts cloud kill. Wizard then casts Forcecage (solid box, requires 1500 gp spell component of that's allowed for this exercise) or a second Wall of Force (spherical) or even Otiluke's Resiliant Sphere. The FC/WoF/ORS will trap the fighter inside with the Cloudkill, and they don't have enough HP to survive the concentration duration.

The only way for the fighter to win this is to get out enough damage on round 1 to take out the wizard before they can cast.

Nope because Contingency (When in danger of dying; Otilukes Sphere/Wall of force).

[smcmike]

Sorry no. I've proved it with the math. There are also several other builds from other classes that roflstomp the Fighter 20.



Actually, I think they are waiting on that thread to see what your (doomed) spell singer does next in the 100x simulation.



So that's one of the main reasons I'm not participating. Its a completely unreal challenge on both sides.

.....

[Jakinbandw]

Nope because Contingency (When in danger of dying; Otilukes Sphere/Wall of force).

Opening post states no prep time for either side and no ongoing buff spells. So the wizard won't have contingency up.

[NewDM]

Actually, I think they are waiting on that thread to see what your (doomed) spell singer does next in the 100x simulation.



.....

lol, the fighter can't hit the Blade Singer and the Blade Singer is whacking the Fighter for 2d8+6 per round. If they go haste instead of Stone Skin, then it gets even worse +2 AC, and extra attack for 3d8+9 per round.

[NewDM]

Opening post states no prep time for either side and no ongoing buff spells. So the wizard won't have contingency up.

Exactly which is nonsense. Its not a realistic challenge.

[jas61292]

I find it funny that the most common response to rules that don't favor a wizard in things like this (from people who think wizards always win everything) is typically something to the effect of "He's a wizard, so these rules shouldn't apply to him."

I also find it funny that people always compare a long rest class at the beginning of the day vs a short rest class. What would be far more interesting than a single battle would be to simulate the battle 8 times throughout the day, with a short rest after every second battle. While its pretty obvious that a level 20 fighter beats a level 10 wizard all day every day, when things are reversed, its not so clear. Yeah, a level 20 Wizard easily beats a level 10 fighter at the beginning of the day, but every time the matchup is repeated the same day, it gets closer and closer. The strength of a wizard at high levels is not simply their power, but their ability to control WHEN battles are. When you have your simulation force them to follow the games assumptions, their power shrinks dramatically.

[AvatarVecna]

lol, the fighter can't hit the Blade Singer and the Blade Singer is whacking the Fighter for 2d8+6 per round. If they go haste instead of Stone Skin, then it gets even worse +2 AC, and extra attack for 3d8+9 per round.

So to be clear: are you having your wizards attack with their rapier, attack with Booming Blade, trade Stoneskin for Haste, what?

[mgshamster]

So that's one of the main reasons I'm not participating. Its a completely unreal challenge on both sides.

I can tell you're not participating, with all your nonexistent posts in this thread.

[Giant2005]

3) Between a surprise round, the first round (assuming Fighter can win initiative), and an Action Surge, the Fighter can get either 6 or 8 attacks in (depending on if they have a dependable source of bonus action attacks); if they can't take the caster out with those 6/8 attacks (in other words, before the Wizard gets a chance to act), the caster likely wins. There's just too many spells that let casters completely no-sell or straight-up murder non-casters, particularly with this kind of level disparity.

It doesn't need to get so complicated. One dose of Malice poison (worth 250g) and the Wizard is neutralized due to not being able to target anything with its spells. If the Fighter loses initiative, he will lose but if he wins initiative and the wizard fails a DC 15 con save, then the Fighter wins.
The level 10 Fighter is better off against a level 20 Wizard than a level 10 Wizard is against a level 20 Fighter for two main reasons.
1. They both die in one round if they lose initiative, but the level 10 fighter has a much higher chance of winning initiative than the level 10 wizard does.
2. If the level 10 Fighter wins initiative he has a reasonable chance of winning the fight (it hinges on that con save - if the wizard makes the save, the wizard wins, if the wizard fails the save, the wizard loses). However if the level 10 Wizard wins initiative, it is still very likely that he will lose.

[Waazraath]

Assuming that the fighter is dead if losing initiative, how far would the following build come?
Variant human
Feats: crossbow mastery (human), sharp shooter
ASI: one spend on a feat, 2 on dex increases (for dex 20)
Fighter: battle master
Maneuvers: precision attack, menacing attack, ... ?
Fighting style: archery

Damage:
- superiority dice: 1d10
- hand crossbow: 1d6
- dex: 5
- sharp shooter: 10

Without spending superiority dice, if all 5 attacks are hits, 5x 18.5 = 92,5
With superiority dice on every attack (you have 5): 120

To hit:
+2 fighting style
+5 dex
+4 proficiency
-5 sharp shooter
Total: +6
With superiority die spend: 1d10 + 6, average 11,5

Strategy:
- pray you win initiative (max dex should help)
- make 5 attacks (2 normal, 1 bonus, 2 with action surge), -5 attack, +10 damage
- use precision attack when rolling low, and menacing attack when rolling high

It depends on the opponents exactly how much luck you need, as the lvl 10 fighter (a lot, in any case). Lets say a generic caster lvl 20, that optimized starting stats for casting, and uses the feat (resilient: con). Assume dex 18, con 16. A relative weak caster, like the wild magic sorcerer, would have mage armor, for AC 17. HP would be 6 + 19*4 + 20*3 = 142. (EDIT: since sorcerer is already proficient in con saves, replace resilient: con with wis - or war caster - or are those feats too weak in a realistic caster build?)

:smalleek:

Ok... so the fighter needs to roll good enough to make every attack hit, so with five dice, only 11 or higher. AND then he's 20 damage short, so he needs to roll really well on damage, or score a critical hit.

I'm not going to do the precise math, but basicly: if we can upgrade this fighter a bit with magic weapons (and maybe some other ways, anybody?), this has a very, very small chance to work against a caster that wasn't build for a 1 on 1 match like this, and didn't have time to prepare. If the caster picks feats like tough, alert, or lucky, not a chance, let alone if pre-bufffing, contignencies, simulacra and clones are involved: not a bloody chance in hell.

Seems like the "try to do enough damage on turn 1 strategy" isn't exactly 'winning' (though what is?)

[NewDM]

I find it funny that the most common response to rules that don't favor a wizard in things like this (from people who think wizards always win everything) is typically something to the effect of "He's a wizard, so these rules shouldn't apply to him."

lolnope. The 'wizard' in this scenario is a God created newb that doesn't even have the basic preparation that every level 20 Wizard would normally have, i.e. Clone, Simulacrum, and Contingency.


I also find it funny that people always compare a long rest class at the beginning of the day vs a short rest class. What would be far more interesting than a single battle would be to simulate the battle 8 times throughout the day, with a short rest after every second battle. While its pretty obvious that a level 20 fighter beats a level 10 wizard all day every day, when things are reversed, its not so clear. Yeah, a level 20 Wizard easily beats a level 10 fighter at the beginning of the day, but every time the matchup is repeated the same day, it gets closer and closer. The strength of a wizard at high levels is not simply their power, but their ability to control WHEN battles are. When you have your simulation force them to follow the games assumptions, their power shrinks dramatically.

Sure but that means the fighter is out of Second Wind, Action Surges, and Superiority Dice (if any). They are also at 3/4 hp.


So to be clear: are you having your wizards attack with their rapier, attack with Booming Blade, trade Stoneskin for Haste, what?

Yes, go Haste against the ranged fighter and stick to them and GI against the melee fighter. With 3 weapon attacks each round.


Assuming that the fighter is dead if losing initiative, how far would the following build come?
Variant human
Feats: crossbow mastery (human), sharp shooter
ASI: one spend on a feat, 2 on dex increases (for dex 20)
Fighter: battle master
Maneuvers: precision attack, menacing attack, ... ?
Fighting style: archery

Damage:
- superiority dice: 1d10
- hand crossbow: 1d6
- dex: 5
- sharp shooter: 10

Without spending superiority dice, if all 5 attacks are hits, 5x 18.5 = 92,5
With superiority dice on every attack (you have 5): 120

To hit:
+2 fighting style
+5 dex
+4 proficiency
-5 sharp shooter
Total: +6
With superiority die spend: 1d10 + 6, average 11,5

Strategy:
- pray you win initiative (max dex should help)
- make 5 attacks (2 normal, 1 bonus, 2 with action surge), -5 attack, +10 damage
- use precision attack when rolling low, and menacing attack when rolling high

It depends on the opponents exactly how much luck you need, as the lvl 10 fighter (a lot, in any case). Lets say a generic caster lvl 20, that optimized starting stats for casting, and uses the feat (resilient: con). Assume dex 18, con 16. A relative weak caster, like the wild magic sorcerer, would have mage armor, for AC 17. HP would be 6 + 19*4 + 20*3 = 142.

:smalleek:

Ok... so the fighter needs to roll good enough to make every attack hit, so with five dice, only 11 or higher. AND then he's 20 damage short, so he needs to roll really well on damage, or score a critical hit.

I'm not going to do the precise math, but basicly: if we can upgrade this fighter a bit with magic weapons (and maybe some other ways, anybody?), this has a very, very small chance to work against a caster that wasn't build for a 1 on 1 match like this, and didn't have time to prepare. If the caster picks feats like tough, alert, or lucky, not a chance, let alone if pre-bufffing, contignencies, simulacra and clones are involved: not a bloody chance in hell.

Seems like the "try to do enough damage on turn 1 strategy" isn't exactly 'winning' (though what is?)

That's assuming the Wizard doesn't use their spells to trap the fighter with Wish(Simulacrum), then the following round Cloud Kill + readied Wall of Force Hemisphere. So if the Fighter can't win in 2 rounds it doesn't stand a chance.

[AvatarVecna]

Yes, go Haste against the ranged fighter and stick to them and GI against the melee fighter. With 3 weapon attacks each round.

Alrighty then, Haste it is (since this is the ranged dude I'm doing these runs with).

[NewDM]

Alrighty then, Haste it is (since this is the ranged dude I'm doing these runs with).

Don't forget that haste doubles move speed so they don't need Long Strider and they stick to the fighter like jelly and use War Caster (Booming Blade) in place of opportunity attacks.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

How much to stack the deck? I guess if the room they're fighting in is covered in anti magic field the fighter starts standing a chance. The fighter has barely more hitpoints, worse saves and the same base attack bonus, but should be able to more than make up with gear, proficiencies and feats.

This is just as a reminder that the wizard is twice the fighter's level. If the wizard comes into the magic field without any contingency spells and such but with a build designed for this challenge it might even become pretty close.

With magic allowed... I think I'd (partly) allow some of the solutions posted if the fighter in this scenario was a PC who just really wanted to kill a powerful wizard.

[AvatarVecna]

Don't forget that haste doubles move speed so they don't need Long Strider and they stick to the fighter like jelly and use War Caster (Booming Blade) in place of opportunity attacks.

Not to worry, Fighter isn't gonna bother with any of that "running away like a pansy" crap.

EDIT: It's worth noting that you'll only get one attack in the round you cast Haste (using the Haste extra action).

[NewDM]

Not to worry, Fighter isn't gonna bother with any of that "running away like a pansy" crap.

EDIT: It's worth noting that you'll only get one attack in the round you cast Haste (using the Haste extra action).

Yep. That's true. Also only one attack when recasting spells too. It might take 20-30 rounds, but They should win a good amount of time.

[comk59]

While I mostly meant it as a joke, the strangling the wizard to death thing might actually work. although I'm not sure what Wizard spells can be cast silently.

Obviously though this would require a DM to allow the fighter to use Garrote that we extrapolated from the Ettercap/PotA Sahuagin, which is teetering on if not falling over the edge of homebrew....

[AvatarVecna]

Yep. That's true. Also only one attack when recasting spells too. It might take 20-30 rounds, but They should win a good amount of time.

We'll see how things turn out. So far, it's not looking too good, but I'm sure it'll turn around.

[RickAllison]

Yep. That's true. Also only one attack when recasting spells too. It might take 20-30 rounds, but They should win a good amount of time.

Don't forget that you only have 20 rounds of Bladesong anyway and that Haste causes you to lose an entire turn of actions and movement when it ends.

[AvatarVecna]

Don't forget that you only have 20 rounds of Bladesong anyway and that Haste causes you to lose an entire turn of actions and movement when it ends.

Oh don't worry, I'm not forgetting about the duration on all these buffs.

[smcmike]

Sure but that means the fighter is out of Second Wind, Action Surges, and Superiority Dice (if any). They are also at 3/4 hp.

Not if they are each late in an adventuring day, but just finished a short rest.


How much to stack the deck? I guess if the room they're fighting in is covered in anti magic field the fighter starts standing a chance. The fighter has barely more hitpoints, worse saves and the same base attack bonus, but should be able to more than make up with gear, proficiencies and feats.

What if the room is just under the effects of a silence spell? Are there enough nonverbal spells for the wizard to win?

[comk59]

What if the room is just under the effects of a silence spell? Are there enough nonverbal spells for the wizard to win?

Took a quick scan, and not only do the mainstays require Verbal (teleport, dimensionsdoor, wish, dispel magic, shield, wall of force), but I actually can't find ANY spell that doesn't have verbal components. I haven't done any real analysis, but it looks like the vast majority of spells need speaking.

[NewDM]

Took a quick scan, and not only do the mainstays require Verbal (teleport, dimensionsdoor, wish, dispel magic, shield, wall of force), but I actually can't find ANY spell that doesn't have verbal components. I haven't done any real analysis, but it looks like the vast majority of spells need speaking.

If the Wizard is in a room with dispel magic, they would just step out of the room. Its too small for fireball anyway.

[smcmike]

Took a quick scan, and not only do the mainstays require Verbal (teleport, dimensionsdoor, wish, dispel magic, shield, wall of force), but I actually can't find ANY spell that doesn't have verbal components. I haven't done any real analysis, but it looks like the vast majority of spells need speaking.

I took a slightly longer scan. It looks like there are 5 nonverbal spells, two of which are useful if you start in an enclosed silenced space.

Counterspell - too late.
Friends - um? No.
Minor illusion - better than nothing, I guess.
Mislead - now we are getting somewhere. You could use this to hide and wait out the silence, assuming it isn't permanent.
Demiplane - yeah, this is a solution.

[smcmike]

If the Wizard is in a room with dispel magic, they would just step out of the room. Its too small for fireball anyway.

My question involved a locked room.

[comk59]

Also hypnotic pattern is Non-V.

Sooo... grapple plus silence equals incredibly gimped wizard?

[smcmike]

Also hypnotic pattern is Non-V.

Sooo... grapple plus silence equals incredibly gimped wizard?

Yeah, basically. Grapple + silence = dead wizard. So that's what a fighter needs - Silence and initiative.

Are there wizards that can still win reliably?

[Jakinbandw]

Huh, so really with just a single magic item, the fighter has a good shot at winning the fight. Not even a super powerful one either. Go figure.

[comk59]

Huh, so really with just a single magic item, the fighter has a good shot at winning the fight. Not even a super powerful one either. Go figure.

That, or they're an Eldritch knight.

[Jakinbandw]

That, or they're an Eldritch knight.

Depends, if they have a magic item, then they don't need a surprise round to cast silence before grappling... and I forgot that fighters have action surge. Yup, an eldritch knight can pull this combo off if they win initiative and have a decent chance of winning.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I took a slightly longer scan. It looks like there are 5 nonverbal spells, two of which are useful if you start in an enclosed silenced space.

Counterspell - too late.
Friends - um? No.
Minor illusion - better than nothing, I guess.
Mislead - now we are getting somewhere. You could use this to hide and wait out the silence, assuming it isn't permanent.
Demiplane - yeah, this is a solution.

And demiplane was preemptively ruled out because it's a solution.

So yeah, I guess that was a lot easier then I expected it to be. You might even be able to get away with saying "I put my fist/sock/whatever in the wizards mouth". Although a lot of DM's will probably not let you roll for something like that unless you're grappling first.

[Waazraath]

That's assuming the Wizard doesn't use their spells to trap the fighter with Wish(Simulacrum), then the following round Cloud Kill + readied Wall of Force Hemisphere. So if the Fighter can't win in 2 rounds it doesn't stand a chance.

Eh... how about reading the post you are responding to?
1) I'm replying to the OP, not to your wizard build. I'm explicitly mentioning a wild mage sorcerer, that I (sort of) statted out.
2) I'm explicitly saying that I assume that if the full caster gets a turn, the fight is over.

[NewDM]

Even ssilencedthe Blade Singer wizard stands a chance once blade song is active
Reasons:

two attacks per round with rapier +Dex +Int to damage
Absorb damage with otherwise useless spell slots.
Insane AC.

[smcmike]

Even ssilencedthe Blade Singer wizard stands a chance once blade song is active
Reasons:

two attacks per round with rapier +Dex +Int to damage
Absorb damage with otherwise useless spell slots.
Insane AC.

That's a good point. I don't have SCAG, so my list of nonverbal spells is just from the PHB, too. I also didn't know whether silence had any affect on bladesong, but I guess the song part is just a metaphor. Advantage on acrobatics too.... A 20th level bladesinger probably wins against silence/grapple.

[Gwendol]

Even ssilencedthe Blade Singer wizard stands a chance once blade song is active
Reasons:

two attacks per round with rapier +Dex +Int to damage
Absorb damage with otherwise useless spell slots.
Insane AC.

The grappled, silenced wizard will likely be pushed to the ground in order to help the fighter to overcome the AC. This will force the BS to attack with disadvantage.

[AvatarVecna]

It's worth mentioning that the Bladesong also gives advantage on Acrobatics. It likely won't be a full +11, I imagine, but even +9 or +10 will be useful for the Bladesinger, and advantage will make it difficult for the Fighter's Athletics to overcome.

[Gwendol]

It's worth mentioning that the Bladesong also gives advantage on Acrobatics. It likely won't be a full +11, I imagine, but even +9 or +10 will be useful for the Bladesinger, and advantage will make it difficult for the Fighter's Athletics to overcome.

Indeed. The fighter may have to restrain the BS first (canceling the advantage). A net would do the trick, if it wasn't for the restriction to the number of attacks one can make in a round. A Wand of Viscid Globs might be necessary.

[Vogonjeltz]

Oh absolutely. The problem is the existence of Save-Or-Die spells (and to a lesser extent, No-Save-Just-Die spells, which in this edition is basically just Power Word Kill); if the Fighter doesn't kill the Wizard before the Wizard gets a turn, they're running the risk that the Wizard uses a SoD. Power Word Kill just straight-up kills this Fighter, period. Hell, the Wizard is so much higher level than the Fighter, they could use blasting spells (as inefficient as that normally is); assuming Con 16, the Fighter will have roughly 94 HP, a single Meteor Swarm, even if the Fighter makes the Save, they're looking at an average of 70 HP damage, reducing them to 24 HP (or less if they're an evoker).

The Champion or Battlemaster are capable of killing the Wizard before they even get a turn, and Fighters have indomitable already at 10th level, so they have a fairly good chance of beating the first saving throw spell anyway. The EK can do it in 3 rounds, but it's based on using hold person on the Wizard, which if successful gives the Wiz has basically no chance.