Need analysis of Hit-Point density!

[LastCenturion]

For a campaign I'm playing in, I need to deal a little bit over ten thousand damage with a single Fire Storm spell (CL 16, and overkill doesn't count) and it got me wondering: how many hit points can you fit into a given space? Obviously for the specific problem I'm considering, a very little creature is best, gathered into a large swarm, but is there a bigger, higher CR monster with more hit points for it's size? On a different but related tack, how much does it cost to buy a monster with the intention of killing it? Even for my purposes, it's a little bit tricky to fit 10,330 hit points worth of creatures into 32,000 cubic feet.

If anybody is wondering, I need it for my Druid 13/Wizard 3 to awaken my 500 foot tree (DM decided the size was Colossal +++++, so 1024 HD) by comboing with Sadism (we're using explosive dice, so a 20 doesn't auto-save. Plus side, nat 1 doesn't auto-fail for saves; DM said only attacks). The context might also help, because even if I fill the area with hawks, it's only 9216 hit points out of 10,330. If I have to, I can try to pull it off more than once to reduce how much damage I need to do to around 10,280.

[nedz]

Last time I checked HD were not connected to Space-Time and many small monsters can be advanced without increasing their size. Have you considered just using Widen ?

[LastCenturion]

Last time I checked HD were not connected to Space-Time and many small monsters can be advanced without increasing their size. Have you considered just using Widen ?

I've thought about that, but I think a monster with class levels or arbitrarily more hit dice might be more expensive to import several hundred of. Widened Firestorm is a tenth level spell. I happened upon Wyrmling Copper Dragons (CR 3) though, which are tiny size and average 37 hit points. I can either have 2048 of them or 865, depending on whether I want to fill the area or make the save. Can someone point me towards how much buying various monsters costs?

[Jack_Simth]

For a campaign I'm playing in, I need to deal a little bit over ten thousand damage with a single Fire Storm spell (CL 16, and overkill doesn't count) and it got me wondering: how many hit points can you fit into a given space? Obviously for the specific problem I'm considering, a very little creature is best, gathered into a large swarm, but is there a bigger, higher CR monster with more hit points for it's size? On a different but related tack, how much does it cost to buy a monster with the intention of killing it? Even for my purposes, it's a little bit tricky to fit 10,330 hit points worth of creatures into 32,000 cubic feet.

If anybody is wondering, I need it for my Druid 13/Wizard 3 to awaken my 500 foot tree (DM decided the size was Colossal +++++, so 1024 HD) by comboing with Sadism (we're using explosive dice, so a 20 doesn't auto-save. Plus side, nat 1 doesn't auto-fail for saves; DM said only attacks). The context might also help, because even if I fill the area with hawks, it's only 9216 hit points out of 10,330. If I have to, I can try to pull it off more than once to reduce how much damage I need to do to around 10,280.
Hmm.... are you going 3d already? A ten-foot cube contains eight 5-foot squares.

As to costs: A chicken is 2 cp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm#wealthOtherThanCoins)

You may want to consider cages.

[LastCenturion]

Hmm.... are you going 3d already? A ten-foot cube contains eight 5-foot squares.

As to costs: A chicken is 2 cp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm#wealthOtherThanCoins)

You may want to consider cages.

I am. A ten-foot cube is one thousand cubic feet, and a tiny animal is a 2.5 foot cube. Firestorm cast by a level 16 player has 32,000 cubic feet, which can fit two thousand and forty eight tiny animals. If I get tiny animals, they need a little bit over five hit points on average for them to work (A Stirge would be great at 1d10 hit points, but I'm waiting for the DM to email me back on whether he rolls hit points for monsters or if I should just round down to five hit points each, which is risky (I'd need to roll 10 or better on the save, and I can't afford to cast it more than once or twice)

[Vizzerdrix]

Have you considdered symbiot creatures? Some are tiny, and most have a listed size and you should be able to brèed them rather fast.

[nedz]

Widened Firestorm is a tenth level spell.

Which is why you use Sudden Widen. It's only 1/day but it's not a level bump.

That does leave you the problem of acquiring the feat however - which is not insoluble.

[Jack_Simth]

I am. A ten-foot cube is one thousand cubic feet, and a tiny animal is a 2.5 foot cube. Firestorm cast by a level 16 player has 32,000 cubic feet, which can fit two thousand and forty eight tiny animals. If I get tiny animals, they need a little bit over five hit points on average for them to work (A Stirge would be great at 1d10 hit points, but I'm waiting for the DM to email me back on whether he rolls hit points for monsters or if I should just round down to five hit points each, which is risky (I'd need to roll 10 or better on the save, and I can't afford to cast it more than once or twice)
With 48 of them, ranging in 1-10 for the base HP, it averages only a 24 HP difference if the DM rolls or not. If anything, rolling will get more HP (on average, and usually) than taking half, simply because 1d10 averages 5.5; 5 hp each vs. an average of 5.5, over the course of 48 critters = 24 hp difference in favour of rolling.

[Shalist]

Obviously for the specific problem I'm considering, a very little creature is best, gathered into a large swarm.
Why not just cast Insect plague (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/insectPlague.htm)? At CL 13, it'd summon 4 stationary locust swarms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm):

A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures.

That's 5000 HP per 10' cube, or 20,000 HP of potential carnage from a single insect plague. While only 1/7th the hit-point density of your theoretical copper dragon wyrmling swarm, it'd cost nothing, and present no pesky logistical considerations. Or ethical...Poor coppers:

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/copperwyrmling1_zps7977b9c1.jpghttp://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/75614_zpsba1bbc40.jpg

[Jack_Simth]

Why not just cast Insect plague (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/insectPlague.htm)? At CL 13, it'd summon 4 stationary locust swarms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm):


That's 5000 HP per 10' cube, or 20,000 HP of potential carnage from a single insect plague. While only 1/7th the hit-point density of your theoretical copper dragon wyrmling swarm, it'd cost nothing, and present no pesky logistical considerations. Or ethical...Poor coppers:

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/copperwyrmling1_zps7977b9c1.jpghttp://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/75614_zpsba1bbc40.jpg
Catch: It's a swarm. A swarm is treated as a single creature for most game-mechanical purposes, including area spells.

[MisterKaws]

Ten gods would do, but...

You could also just get 2048 chickens and just give them temporary HP through some area spell.

[Jack_Simth]

Ten gods would do, but...

You could also just get 2048 chickens and just give them temporary HP through some area spell.

Ah, like Mass Aid (Spell Compendium)?

[Khedrac]

I would say that swarms and oozes are the way to go - because they can overlap without penalty.

So don't have a single swarm - have 10 of them occupying the same squares...

[LastCenturion]

With 48 of them, ranging in 1-10 for the base HP, it averages only a 24 HP difference if the DM rolls or not. If anything, rolling will get more HP (on average, and usually) than taking half, simply because 1d10 averages 5.5; 5 hp each vs. an average of 5.5, over the course of 48 critters = 24 hp difference in favour of rolling.

umm... why 48 creatures? The numbers I have show I need 2048 small creatures, which is a difference of 1024 hit points, or +102 to the save. Not really a small difference, yeah?


Which is why you use Sudden Widen. It's only 1/day but it's not a level bump.

That does leave you the problem of acquiring the feat however - which is not insoluble.

True, although I think my character is pretty much feated out, or whatever the word is. I'll consider it though. Thanks.


Why not just cast Insect plague (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/insectPlague.htm)? At CL 13, it'd summon 4 stationary locust swarms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm):


That's 5000 HP per 10' cube, or 20,000 HP of potential carnage from a single insect plague. While only 1/7th the hit-point density of your theoretical copper dragon wyrmling swarm, it'd cost nothing, and present no pesky logistical considerations. Or ethical...Poor coppers:

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/copperwyrmling1_zps7977b9c1.jpghttp://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/75614_zpsba1bbc40.jpg

well because...


Catch: It's a swarm. A swarm is treated as a single creature for most game-mechanical purposes, including area spells.

yeah, that.


I would say that swarms and oozes are the way to go - because they can overlap without penalty.

So don't have a single swarm - have 10 of them occupying the same squares...

it sounds good, but I'm guessing the DM will overrule it. He isn't quite on board with our party having a pet tree with the same approxiamate power level as the major gods... combined. (Seriously though, having 1024 HD is so broken. Three hundred forty some feats, a Str score over 300, four and a half thousand hit points, just so much stuff. Base AC is negative 231, however. Weird stuff, when you go Colossal +++++. DM says it isn't epic, it just has stats as if it were, because he doesn't want epic stuff in his campaign:smalltongue:)

[Jack_Simth]

umm... why 48 creatures? The numbers I have show I need 2048 small creatures, which is a difference of 1024 hit points, or +102 to the save. Not really a small difference, yeah?That'd be because I don't always pay as much attention as I should.

However: it's still a fairly small difference - specifically 10%. 2048 critters at 5 vs. 5.5 hp. So, yeah, the 102 when you're dealing with 1024 in the first place isn't much difference.

Oh yes, and monsters have Death's Door too, so even without overkill, that 5 hp on the monster sheet means you can deal 15 damage to it before it croaks (unless it's a summon, undead, or construct, or something with similar clauses). So really, it's not 10%, it's more like 3%.

[LastCenturion]

That'd be because I don't always pay as much attention as I should.

However: it's still a fairly small difference - specifically 10%. 2048 critters at 5 vs. 5.5 hp. So, yeah, the 102 when you're dealing with 1024 in the first place isn't much difference.

Oh yes, and monsters have Death's Door too, so even without overkill, that 5 hp on the monster sheet means you can deal 15 damage to it before it croaks. So really, it's not 10%, it's more like 3%.

... the average d20 roll is a difference of less than a fifth the difference on rolling hit points or not, if I go with Stirges. I cannot make the save if I don't roll hit points, if I do I'm guaranteed to. Pretty huge difference, a +102 bonus to a saving throw.

EDIT: Also, DM doesn't use Death's Door with monsters unless it's a very special monster, a category that two thousand stirges we bought do not fall into.

[Inevitability]

1. Arrange for 544 humanoids to be gathered in front of the tree.

2. Cast Summon Undead V from a scroll to summon a shadow. Have it kill a single humanoid.

3. Dismiss the summoned shadow.

4. Wait until a new shadow raises.

5. Cast Command Undead on the newly created shadow. Nicely ask it to attack the mass of bound, unarmed humanoids rather than the powerful druid. Making it do this should be trivial.

6. Wait until all humanoids have been turned into shadows. This should take around four minutes.

7. Nicely ask the newly created shadow to make itself and all of its spawn occupy a single 5 ft square for the next twelve seconds, after which it is free to do as it wants. Again, this should be a reasonable request.

8. Cast Sadism on yourself.

9. Cast Fire Storm at the shadows, destroying them all unless you have terrible luck. Each has 19 HP and there are 544 of them, so you reach the damage threshold. If a higher CL is desired, more humanoids can be added easily.

10. Awaken the tree.


The only problems I could see here are acquiring a scroll of Summon Undead V (something capable of starting an apocalypse is probably not too popular) and keeping your druid powers while creating large numbers of undead.

On the other hand, there's some awesome fluff right there. You're drawing the souls of your victims from their bodies, binding them to your will, then destroying them to fuel your magic.

[Jormengand]

Bear in mind that you can hit four colossal creatures even if you can only hit a 10-foot square, because only one square of the creature has to be in that area. Because firestorm is shapeable, you can probably use this to your advantage.

[Jack Mann]

Make a deal with one of the princes of the abyss to get a mass deal on quasits. They're tiny and have perfect flight, so you can squeeze enough of 'em into the requisite number of squares, and each of them has 13 hit points. They have fire resistance 10, but your average damage is 56. Even if they make their save (and if you're doing things right, most of them won't), they still won't survive your average damage.

If you want to be absolutely sure, you might be able to get someone to craft you a rod of widen spell. In theory, there's no reason one couldn't exist, even if the game designers didn't put it on the list of metamagic rods.

[GrayDeath]

OKI probably I am too tired to remember, but: WHY is a Druid of all Classes slaughtering hundreds to thousands of Beings to awaken a Tree (is there a mechanical necessity I ahve forgotten? Or is it specially tied to awakening ****ing huge homebrewed trees?).

[Jack_Simth]

OKI probably I am too tired to remember, but: WHY is a Druid of all Classes slaughtering hundreds to thousands of Beings to awaken a Tree (is there a mechanical necessity I ahve forgotten? Or is it specially tied to awakening ****ing huge homebrewed trees?).

There's a will save involved in Awaken, and it isn't made by the target. The DC is variable based on what you're doing.

As to the tree: I'm guessing the OP needs a favour from a critter with access to Epic feats....

[LastCenturion]

There's a will save involved in Awaken, and it isn't made by the target. The DC is variable based on what you're doing.

As to the tree: I'm guessing the OP needs a favour from a critter with access to Epic feats....

The will save DC is 10 plus either the hit dice that the creature you're awakening has, or the hit dice that the tree you're awakening WILL have. In this case, a 500 foot tall tree has 1024 HD, and Sadism seemed like the only non-epic way to get a will save bonus of +1033. DM has ruled no epic stuff, otherwise the tree would get fast healing three hundred ish. Can someone point me towards a system of buying monsters?

[nedz]

The will save DC is 10 plus either the hit dice that the creature you're awakening has, or the hit dice that the tree you're awakening WILL have. In this case, a 500 foot tall tree has 1024 HD, and Sadism seemed like the only non-epic way to get a will save bonus of +1033. DM has ruled no epic stuff, otherwise the tree would get fast healing three hundred ish. Can someone point me towards a system of buying monsters?

Why don't you just use the adjacent 510' tree ?

[Jack_Simth]

The will save DC is 10 plus either the hit dice that the creature you're awakening has, or the hit dice that the tree you're awakening WILL have. In this case, a 500 foot tall tree has 1024 HD, and Sadism seemed like the only non-epic way to get a will save bonus of +1033. DM has ruled no epic stuff, otherwise the tree would get fast healing three hundred ish. Can someone point me towards a system of buying monsters?

There's few monsters that have direct price tags. That said, Lords of Madness, page 101, has a formula for the base cost of Neogi slaves - probably more than you want to part with, though.

[Endarire]

Am I the only one who's reminded of Elijah and the prophets of Baal? (Link (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Kings+18&version=NKJV))

[LastCenturion]

There's few monsters that have direct price tags. That said, Lords of Madness, page 101, has a formula for the base cost of Neogi slaves - probably more than you want to part with, though.

CR squared times 100 gold? It's a lot, but we actually have almost half a million gold left to work on making a stronghold, even after ringing the entire tree in walls of force and buying a hot tub of Positive Energy Aura and True Resurrection, along with probably way too many rooms and spells and stuff. We can totally afford this; the gold just vanishes if we don't use it on the base. 204,800 gold to animate the tree is well less than I was willing to part with. Thanks for the reference to the costs, assuming the DM agrees with it.

[Jack_Simth]

Am I the only one who's reminded of Elijah and the prophets of Baal? (Link (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Kings+18&version=NKJV))
You may want to up the subtlety after checking the forum rules, bro.

[Divide by Zero]

The Irresistible Spell feat from Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide should neatly avoid the entire problem, if your DM will allow it.

[FocusWolf413]

Can someone point me towards a system of buying monsters?

You mean, besides slavery? Slavery works really well. Just walk on over to the slave market, steal/buy the slaves, and walk on back.

Best part: they're objects, so you can use shrink object on them to get a bunch of them in one place. Just get a bunch of wooden barrels and fill them with shrink object-ed slaves.

[Inevitability]

CR squared times 100 gold? It's a lot, but we actually have almost half a million gold left to work on making a stronghold, even after ringing the entire tree in walls of force and buying a hot tub of Positive Energy Aura and True Resurrection, along with probably way too many rooms and spells and stuff. We can totally afford this; the gold just vanishes if we don't use it on the base. 204,800 gold to animate the tree is well less than I was willing to part with. Thanks for the reference to the costs, assuming the DM agrees with it.

204800 gold? That's way too much. The solution I gave above costs 13850 gold to get 544 humanoid commoners and probably around 1125 GP for the scroll of Summon Undead V.

Add in 250 GP to buy a scroll of Command Undead and another 200 to transcribe it. Maybe keep a buffer of 5000 GP for travel expenses: getting these scrolls may not be easy. All things considered, that's still only 20425 GP: not a tenth of what you are talking about.

[LastCenturion]

204800 gold? That's way too much. The solution I gave above costs 13850 gold to get 544 humanoid commoners and probably around 1125 GP for the scroll of Summon Undead V.

Add in 250 GP to buy a scroll of Command Undead and another 200 to transcribe it. Maybe keep a buffer of 5000 GP for travel expenses: getting these scrolls may not be easy. All things considered, that's still only 20425 GP: not a tenth of what you are talking about.

Yeah, it sounds good, but the DM has outlawed scrolls for building purposes. Cast it yourself or don't cast it. Buying spells, too. It's a great idea though. Maybe I'll use it for huge damage from nowhere at some point (have six hundred shadows in the same square, all doing the same thing. Including attacking. 600 attacks at once is never fun).

[LastCenturion]

The Irresistible Spell feat from Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide should neatly avoid the entire problem, if your DM will allow it.

Would be great, but at ECL 16 I don't have ninth level druid spell slots, and even at ECL 20 I would only barely have one of them and a second level wizard spell. I'll see if the other people in my group want to think about it though; it's very interesting. Any idea how it works with Improved Evasion (the rogue wouldn't make the save, but does it still count for taking half damage?)

EDIT: I just realized I wouldn't need the wizard spells. Anyways, I'm not sure how this would work because the target doesn't make any saves, the caster does.

[Divide by Zero]

Would be great, but at ECL 16 I don't have ninth level druid spell slots, and even at ECL 20 I would only barely have one of them and a second level wizard spell. I'll see if the other people in my group want to think about it though; it's very interesting. Any idea how it works with Improved Evasion (the rogue wouldn't make the save, but does it still count for taking half damage?)

You could always use one of the various ways of mitigating metamagic adjustments, or see if you can get a rod/Sudden version of it.

As for Improved Evasion, I imagine it would work the same way as a spell that doesn't allow a save by default - they take full damage.

[LastCenturion]

204800 gold? That's way too much. The solution I gave above costs 13850 gold to get 544 humanoid commoners and probably around 1125 GP for the scroll of Summon Undead V.

Add in 250 GP to buy a scroll of Command Undead and another 200 to transcribe it. Maybe keep a buffer of 5000 GP for travel expenses: getting these scrolls may not be easy. All things considered, that's still only 20425 GP: not a tenth of what you are talking about.

waaaaaiiiiit. You just don't want me to use stirges because you're Dire_Stirge.


Why don't you just use the adjacent 510' tree ?

Because it would only take the damage once, so a bonus of around +5. 5<1033, no?

[Magesmiley]

Widened Firestorm is a tenth level spell.

What about a Widen Metamagic rod? That would allow you to increase the area of the spell without increasing the level. I want to say there was such an item in one of the Complete books.

[Jack Mann]

What about a Widen Metamagic rod? That would allow you to increase the area of the spell without increasing the level. I want to say there was such an item in one of the Complete books.

Couldn't find it in Mage, Arcane, or Divine, nor in the MIC. However, it's pretty easy to extrapolate from existing metamagic rods.