Building a Rogue

[Kesnit]

So I kicked the guy who was playing a Rogue (or rather, Rogue-like) PC out of my game. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?487488-PC-Becoming-a-Hindrance&p=20784969#post20784969) In exchange, I told the remaining players I would provide them an NPC Rogue under their control. The rest of the party is a Half-Orc Barbarian/Fighter, a Halfling Cleric/Divine Oracle, and a Spirit-Scourged Hellbred Warlock (going into Hellfire Warlock). Party is LVL 9.

Here is what I have so far. Any help for improvement is welcome. I did find and use the Rogues Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6)

Gretchen, Kobold Rogue 9 (with Kobold Rogue substitution at 1 and 8)
STR 6 INT 16
DEX 18 (22) 20 (24) WIS 14 12
CON 14 CHA 10


(1) Dragon Wings
(3) Weapon Finesse
(6) TWF Multiattack
(9) Craven

I originally had her as a Dragonwrought Kobold, but did really see anything in the feat. The immunity to sleep and paralysis would be nice, but it has yet to come up in the module I'm running. The skill bonuses I would have wanted were from OA dragons, which doesn't really fit my game.


Sneak Attack +5d6
Shrewd Trapfinding
Evasion
Penetrating Strike
Uncanny Dodge
Evasive Skitter


Balance 12 5
Craft (Alchemy) 7
Craft (Trapmaking) 9
Disable Device 12
Escape Artist 10
Knowledge (Local) 12 10
Listen 12 5
Open Lock 12
Search 12
Spot 12
Tumble 12

Acrobatic Backstab


Gloves of DEX +4
+1 Dagger (x2)
Amulet of Mighty Fists +1
+2 Padded Armor
Lesser Energy Assault (Acid)
Ring of Protection +1

I have 9000 more gold to spend. All suggestions are welcome.

[Troacctid]

Consider desert kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds) in place of the standard Monster Manual version. Replacing the Con penalty with a Wis penalty is generally a good trade, and it comes with free Heat Endurance. (It also removes your light sensitivity, but you could already do that with a 10 gp pair of sunglasses sundark goggles, so it's not a huge deal.)

Remember to take the Draconic Rite of Passage for a free spell-like ability usable once per day. I also recommend taking the Draconic Reservoir feat to upgrade it to 3/day and get a free level of sorcerer casting. (Obviously you'll want to boost your Cha up to 12 if you do this.)

You don't need Two-Weapon Fighting. You have plenty of extra attacks already thanks to your natural claw-claw-bite attacks (which kobolds have (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)).

Pick up a Talon Scepter (MIC 210) as your weapon. 10,305 for a +1 flaming light mace that also gives you an extra fire ray attack at will as a swift action for 1d6 damage. That's a free extra sneak attack every round, and it targets touch AC to boot, so it's fantastic for a rogue.

5 ranks is enough in Balance. DCs are usually very low, and you have good Dex, so you should be fine with just enough to avoid being flat-footed while balancing. Consider putting more points in Escape Artist so that you can actually escape from grapples. Also, the skill tricks Acrobatic Backstab, Nimble Stand, Back on Your Feet, and Escape Attack would all be useful for you. You can pull points out of Open Lock if you need to—you have a Barbarian in the party, after all. If your Warlock has Baleful Utterance, Relentless/Voracious Dispelling, and/or Flee the Scene, then you can probably do without Disable Device as well.

EDIT: Regarding Dragonwrought, there are two main reasons why it's broken: 1. No penalties for aging, so you can be venerable and get +3 to all mental stats for free, and 2. Dragon-type creatures can take epic feats without being epic-level if they meet the other prerequisites, and there are some fantastic epic feats you could qualify for, such as Lingering Strike, Blinding Speed, Dexterous Will/Fortitude, Dire Charge, Epic Toughness, and the Deflect Arrows line.

[Gildedragon]

So as an NPC under their control I expect Gretchen is mostly going to scout/get rid of traps. If this is so: I'd recomend G stays outside of combat for the most part as she'll prolly slow down gameplay. Have her set traps and GTFO to a hidey nook, with her being of the "You hired me to scout and take care of traps and locks, not kill the beasties" mindset. That way she can fulfill 2 roles: a way out of a TPK (she was hiding, stuffs the bodies into her enveloping pit, takes them to town).
As a party controlled scout I'd recomend a couple things:
First) the Listen to This skill trick, which is a way to relay IC the stuff she might come across while scouting.
Second) An LA template to boost her core abilities: my suggestion: Dark (Boosts her speed, and her sneaking) (in which case spend a feat in Martial Study: Child of Shadows stance, or a couple levels in swordsage to get her to poof back and forth)
Third) Craft Alchemy for smokebombs and enhancing the traps with poisons / helping the pcs craft other useful alchemical items. have sneak attacks be with sleeping poisons and the like, opening the way for the rest of the party.
Fourth) I second the use of a Desert Kobold.

Gear: Shadowsilk armor is probably the best option

[Vizzerdrix]

Spend 100 gold on shapesand. Also, investing in umd is a good idea.

[Kesnit]

Consider desert kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds) in place of the standard Monster Manual version. Replacing the Con penalty with a Wis penalty is generally a good trade, and it comes with free Heat Endurance. (It also removes your light sensitivity, but you could already do that with a 10 gp pair of sunglasses sundark goggles, so it's not a huge deal.)

Yes, that is wonderful!!! I'll adjust the OP.

(To clarify the adjustments... WIS was reduced by 2. CON had received the level-up points at 4 and 8, counteracting the -2 I had from Kobold. I decided to not boost CON again, but instead, put those points into DEX.)


Remember to take the Draconic Rite of Passage for a free spell-like ability usable once per day. I also recommend taking the Draconic Reservoir feat to upgrade it to 3/day and get a free level of sorcerer casting. (Obviously you'll want to boost your Cha up to 12 if you do this.)

I'm debating this. Gretchen is intended for the party to control, so I want to make her as simple as possible.


You don't need Two-Weapon Fighting. You have plenty of extra attacks already thanks to your natural claw-claw-bite attacks (which kobolds have (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)).

Huh... That's helpful.


Pick up a Talon Scepter (MIC 210) as your weapon. 10,305 for a +1 flaming light mace that also gives you an extra fire ray attack at will as a swift action for 1d6 damage. That's a free extra sneak attack every round, and it targets touch AC to boot, so it's fantastic for a rogue.

I'll keep that in mind. I don't have funds to buy that right now. (Even getting rid of the daggers, I need to buy an Amulet of Mighty Fists to be able to enchant her claws and bite.


5 ranks is enough in Balance. DCs are usually very low, and you have good Dex, so you should be fine with just enough to avoid being flat-footed while balancing.

OK.


Consider putting more points in Escape Artist so that you can actually escape from grapples.

Done.


Also, the skill tricks Acrobatic Backstab, Nimble Stand, Back on Your Feet, and Escape Attack would all be useful for you.

I'm a little hesitant to use skill tricks. Part of what caused the contention with the previous player was the fact he was buying skill tricks and not skills. Acrobatic Backstab would be good, though. The rest are situational.


You can pull points out of Open Lock if you need to—you have a Barbarian in the party, after all.

Another point of contention was that the previous player wouldn't put points in Open Lock (or DD), but complained if someone else did "his" job (even when he couldn't do "his" job.)


If your Warlock has Baleful Utterance, Relentless/Voracious Dispelling, and/or Flee the Scene, then you can probably do without Disable Device as well.

She has Baleful Utterance, though not the others. However, that player has a tendency to get PCs killed (though no fault of her own), and I don't want to assume the PC will actually be alive to use abilities.


EDIT: Regarding Dragonwrought, there are two main reasons why it's broken: 1. No penalties for aging, so you can be venerable and get +3 to all mental stats for free, and 2. Dragon-type creatures can take epic feats without being epic-level if they meet the other prerequisites, and there are some fantastic epic feats you could qualify for, such as Lingering Strike, Blinding Speed, Dexterous Will/Fortitude, Dire Charge, Epic Toughness, and the Deflect Arrows line.

Well, that does explain why Dragonwrought was highly recommended. However, that's rather cheesy for my campaign (and my remaining players). Thank you, though!


So as an NPC under their control I expect Gretchen is mostly going to scout/get rid of traps. If this is so: I'd recomend G stays outside of combat for the most part as she'll prolly slow down gameplay. Have her set traps and GTFO to a hidey nook, with her being of the "You hired me to scout and take care of traps and locks, not kill the beasties" mindset. That way she can fulfill 2 roles: a way out of a TPK (she was hiding, stuffs the bodies into her enveloping pit, takes them to town).

I am not sure if the party will use her in combat or not. That is something I can ask them at game, and make adjustments if necessary.


(in which case spend a feat in Martial Study: Child of Shadows stance, or a couple levels in swordsage to get her to poof back and forth)

I seriously considered giving her levels of SS. However, only 1 of my players has ever used ToB, and then only briefly. I'd rather not confuse my players any more than I have to.


Third) Craft Alchemy for smokebombs and enhancing the traps with poisons / helping the pcs craft other useful alchemical items.

Oooo... That's an idea...


Spend 100 gold on shapesand.

Hmm... That might be something for me to just drop on the party.


Also, investing in umd is a good idea.

I debated this, too. However, between the Cleric and the Warlock, they have most magical items covered. (If the Warlock dies, I can rebuild Gretchen to have UMD.)

[Gildedragon]

Make two versions of Gretchen: fighting Gretchen and Scout Gretchen

You're the DM so you can make a few tweaks: you could trade sneak attack for +2 or +3 skillpoints per level, or for fighter bonus feats (with which you pick up mobility feats: notably martial study and martial stance). For a scout Gretchen give her some crossbow skill for just in case; with a strong sneaking focus (and the interaction between Dark and Child of Shadow) Gretchen could hide behind the party or on a ledge during a fight and take potshots at the enemy fighters (point black and precise shot being a must)

How are you for including pathfinder stuff?
Flaws? Traits?

[Soranar]

Kobolds qualify for multiattack and improved multiattack

If you take the dragonwrought feat, you can take the dragon tail or prehensive tail feat (not sure which) which gives you yet another attack

If you're dragonwrought your type changes to dragon so you can take rapidstrike and improved rapidstrike at higher levels

With that many attacks, you should obliterate most things in combat due to sneak attack, just make sure you take the ability to sneak attack anything you flank for half dice, even at half dice you should deal enough damage to deal with just about anything CR appropriate

That's a lot of feats just to deal damage mind, I find 3 attacks serves me well in most games (basic kobold + multiattack)

Which is why I usually ignore dragonwrought and just take the dragonborn template (you keep your bite and your claws) to gain flight instead. You can still take a feat to add yourself a tail attack and ignore rapidstrike and improved rapidstrike to concentrate on stuff like darkstalker

[Troacctid]

I'm debating this. Gretchen is intended for the party to control, so I want to make her as simple as possible.
Some good spells to take with the Draconic Rite of Passage include Grease, Golem Strike, Identify (no material component!), Nerveskitter, Silent Image, Blood Wind, Unseen Servant, Floating Disk, and good ol' Mage Armor. Remember that the spell-like ability scales with your character level, so you actually get good durations.

Note that must be a spellcaster to use Craft (Alchemy), and that takes actual spells, not spell-like abilities, so you will have to either take the Draconic Reservoir feat and the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, or buy your alchemical items instead of crafting them.


I'll keep that in mind. I don't have funds to buy that right now. (Even getting rid of the daggers, I need to buy an Amulet of Mighty Fists to be able to enchant her claws and bite.
Get Gloves of Dex +2 instead of +4, you'll save a lot of money.

Remember you also want masterwork thieves' tools, as well as masterwork tools for other skills that use tools. A backup ranged weapon like a sling would be smart to have just in case. A locked gauntlet would be smart so that your weapon doesn't get snatched away easily (you are a small creature with a light weapon after all). Normally I would recommend a bunch of mundane and alchemical utility items, but your party will never remember them all, so meh.

Also, I agree that shadow silk armor is better than leather. Shadow silk hide armor gives a better armor bonus, +2 to stealth, and weighs less (which actually matters given your low Strength).


I'm a little hesitant to use skill tricks. Part of what caused the contention with the previous player was the fact he was buying skill tricks and not skills. Acrobatic Backstab would be good, though. The rest are situational.
The situations are not that uncommon. Many monsters have improved grab, and if you're meleeing them, you will probably get grappled at some point, and when you do, you'll want Escape Attack. There are also a lot of attacks and effects that can knock you prone, so Nimble Stand and Back on Your Feet are pretty useful.


She has Baleful Utterance, though not the others. However, that player has a tendency to get PCs killed (though no fault of her own), and I don't want to assume the PC will actually be alive to use abilities.
If she doesn't have teleports or dispels, then you'll need to keep Disable Device.


I am not sure if the party will use her in combat or not. That is something I can ask them at game, and make adjustments if necessary.
I forgot to mention before, but I highly recommend Staggering Strike. Very good feat for a sneak attacker. Also, since your party isn't in terrible need of damage, you could trade some of it for debuffs with ambush feats like Sickening Strike.


Which is why I usually ignore dragonwrought and just take the dragonborn template (you keep your bite and your claws) to gain flight instead. You can still take a feat to add yourself a tail attack and ignore rapidstrike and improved rapidstrike to concentrate on stuff like darkstalker
I am AFB, but I am pretty sure you lose the natural weapons, yeah?

[Gildedragon]

A non-combat oriented build I'd make:

Dark Desert Kobold (old, that +2 to mental stats is too tasty): LN

Kobold Martial Rogue 6, Factotum 3

you have decent int, it to your dex skills is a sizeable bonus; the +factotum_level to your skills 1/day/skill is handy for skills like craft and a tricky lock you can't quite get to open; +int to attack rolls, saves, ac or damage is solid shoring up of your abilities; and 1 spell is handy (you are up to 2 spells if you underwent the rite of passage); on slow days you can have it be magecraft or identify; and on more busy days it can be Grease, Alarm, Tenser's Disk, Wall of Smoke, or Silent Image (as the party needs).
And ultimately all you're losing out on is 6 skillpoints, improved uncanny dodge/ evasive skitter, a +2 to trapfinding, +1 trapsense and your level 8 fighter feat.

Feats:
1 Dragonwrought (Copper)
3 Dragon Wings
6 Tactile Trapsmith

Fighter 1: Point Blank Shot
Fighter 2: Precise Shot
Fighter 4: Martial Study: Child of Shadow
Fighter 6: Martial Study: Shadow Jaunt

Effective Skill Bonuses

all dex/str skills: +4 (int)
Jump +8 (int + speed boost)
Search +11 (int+dex)
Disable Device +11 (int+dex)
Open Lock +11 (int+dex)
Hide +29 (int+dex+dark+small+slight build+copper heritage) can do in plain sight, with this mod you can easily take the penalty for sniping at people while hidden
Move Silently +17 (int+dex+dark)

if flaws are allowed:
Noncombatant (unearthed arcana)
Light Sensitivity (dr 328) (wear glasses for this)
1 Dragonwrought (Copper)
1 Dragon Wings*
1 Tactile Trapsmith
3: Master of Poisons**
6: Extraordinary Trapsmith***

*or nymph's kiss if you'd rather have 9 extra skillpoints (but having to be a goodie two shoes: only sleeping poison I'd expect)

**if you allow the factotum's trapfinding be traded for Poison Use (as the Drow Rogue Ability) replace with Improved Dragon Wings or Darkstalker or Draconic Reservoir if you did the DRoP

***Only if you intend to use gretchen to lay down traps as she goes on; if not, then swap out for Improved Dragon Wings or Darkstalker or Draconic Reservoir (if you did the DRoP), or True Believer (if you have an enveloping pit and want to use its greater power)