3.5 Level 10 Wizard Gestalt help!

[Nyan]

Okay so I'm going to be joining a gestalt game and it works like this.


I get to start at level 10 and I can pick 2 prestige classes and I must qualify for the class on the side im taking it on so to speak.

Im going for arcane caster so i've been looking around and it seems like Wizard/Factotum is considered really good.

Now what other options do I have? Anyone that is simply better than that or is that the best you could get more or less?

And then what prestige classes could I take and when? I know some that are good for the wizard like mage of the 7 veils (or whatever it is called), incantrix and Archmage but are these still good for a gestalt character or is there better options?

[Sword-Geass]

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (that's it name) and Incantatrix are excellent by themselves, in gestalt, nothing changes about that. Archmage is also good by itself in and out of gestalt, but less so than the others (although the others are absurdly powerful actually, but that's not likely a problem as you're playing gestalt).

Really, if a PrC is strong in normal play, it will be just as strong in gestalt, or even more (PrC's that lose CL for example, but have good abilities can be taken without losing spellcasting by taking the base class on the other side).

Then if you want help with a build, you should also tell us what are you trying to acomplish, what's your concept, without that, we'll only be capable of saying "this is strong, this isn't". Do you want to have a skillful mage? An ultimate spellcaster? A good theurge? A perfect Gish? You have only said that Wizard/Factotum is considered good, and that's because of stat synergy, something that Wizard/Beguiler also has, as well as Wizard/Duskblade, or Wizard/Archivist, all of them run on int, but all of them do something different. So tell us, what's your concept?

[Nyan]

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (that's it name) and Incantatrix are excellent by themselves, in gestalt, nothing changes about that. Archmage is also good by itself in and out of gestalt, but less so than the others (although the others are absurdly powerful actually, but that's not likely a problem as you're playing gestalt).

Really, if a PrC is strong in normal play, it will be just as strong in gestalt, or even more (PrC's that lose CL for example, but have good abilities can be taken without losing spellcasting by taking the base class on the other side).

Then if you want help with a build, you should also tell us what are you trying to acomplish, what's your concept, without that, we'll only be capable of saying "this is strong, this isn't". Do you want to have a skillful mage? An ultimate spellcaster? A good theurge? A perfect Gish? You have only said that Wizard/Factotum is considered good, and that's because of stat synergy, something that Wizard/Beguiler also has, as well as Wizard/Duskblade, or Wizard/Archivist, all of them run on int, but all of them do something different. So tell us, what's your concept?

Hmm well...Im going for the standard God-Wizard more or less. The game will be a duo with me an another player who is going for a melee build. So battlefield controll, be able to level armies and bend the universe to my own whim. A ultimete spellcaster more or less.

I also read that psionic classes are a good gestalt partner for wizard (dont know which of the classes they mean) And I really like this idea as well having unlocked the power of his mind and not only the power of the arcane through study.

[Tiri]

I also read that psionic classes are a good gestalt partner for wizard (dont know which of the classes they mean) And I really like this idea as well having unlocked the power of his mind and not only the power of the arcane through study.

If you want psionics, use the Psion or some variant of it that relies on Intelligence. That will synergize well with Wizard.

[Divide by Zero]

Where did you read that Psion/Wizard is good? I've never played it, since I don't really like playing wizards, but I would think that the fact that they are both "active" classes (i.e. classes that require standard actions for most of their abilities) and have the same chassis would keep them from synergizing well. I mean, any build with full T1/T2 casting is going to be good by default, but I feel like e.g. Wizard/Warblade or Psion/Factotum would be stronger.

[Tiri]

Where did you read that Psion/Wizard is good? I've never played it, since I don't really like playing wizards, but I would think that the fact that they are both "active" classes (i.e. classes that require standard actions for most of their abilities) and have the same chassis would keep them from synergizing well. I mean, any build with full T1/T2 casting is going to be good by default, but I feel like e.g. Wizard/Warblade or Psion/Factotum would be stronger.

I didn't say it was good, but one side of his build is already wizard and he said he liked the idea of psionics. If actions are really a problem there's always Schism.

[Divide by Zero]

I didn't say it was good, but one side of his build is already wizard and he said he liked the idea of psionics. If actions are really a problem there's always Schism.

"Good" was a reference to the OP's post on the matter. And there's always schism, of course, but you could also use that for more manifesting and still have your passive abilities from another class.

[Gildedragon]

With Wizard on one side you're pretty much set for being GOD. You could gun for easybake wizard on one side (if you want to just not have to deal with spellbooks)...

On the other side you could take a racial class... any monster you think would be cool as a wizard?
Warblade is a solid Int heavy choice for the martial side
Kung-Fu Genius Monk gets you your INT to AC and some possibly fun magic fighter flavor. Makes your staff more of a big deal

a Ranger would shore up your saves and give you good BAB for your touch attacks. With archery specialization you could do a mystic archer quite well.

[Nyan]

Okay to clear some stuff up.

I do not want to play a warblade (unless the gm forbids anything else I show him). I have my partner to deal with the melee fighting so its not needed. I want to avoid martial classes entierly. So stuff like ranger and so on so forth is also a no go. And I can not take any monster races and classes. Core races only.

Is the druid any good? I heard planar sheperd is great.

What about Erudite?

[Tiri]

Is the druid any good? I heard planar sheperd is great.

What about Erudite?

The druid, even without Planar Shepherd, which, sadly I know nothing about, is an amazing class. You can change into physically powerful animals, so you don't need to worry about your physical stats except Constitution, you get 9th level spells, which, while not quite as powerful as wizard spells, are still some of the most potent in the game, and an animal companion that can be as good or better than a fighter of your level.

Erudite is good because there isn't any limit on your powers known, making you essentially a psionic wizard, which gives you a lot of versatility. The only restriction is your unique powers per day, but by RAW that number is so large the limit doesn't really matter. You can also use the Spell to Power ACF to learn arcane spells as well.

[Nyan]

Okay so if i get to choose the eruditr spell to power version how would that look with the gestalt wizard?

Wizard X/Incantrix X // Erudite 10?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Mind Mage (Dr. 313) is good for playing an ultimate caster. It's an arcane/psionic 8/10 theurge class, that allows you to apply metamagic/metapsionic feats by spending power points/spell slots, and eventually adds your class level to your manifester level and caster level (that's +10 to both). Because it has 6 levels of dual advancement, you can put factotum levels opposite to those.

The trouble is the houserule, that you must qualify for the class on the side you're taking it on, because normally there are no sides at all. Your build would look like this:

wizard 3/psion +3/mind mage 4//psion 3/wizard +3/psion +1/wizard +1/psion +1/wizard +1.
You qualify for Mind Mage by using a heightened spell. You get full manifesting, and some late factotum levels (levels 11-15, then opposite Cerebremancer levels), but you're wasting levels on psion 6-7 and wizard 6-7, and a feat on early entry, because somehow you can't qualify for PrCs. I'm not sure how the rule is supposed to work (I'm guessing 'not very well'), but you only get 5 wizard/5 psion casting on both sides of the build here, at alternating levels, for a total of 10/10.

A much more elegant (and more RAW) build would be:

wizard 3/cerebremancer 2/mind mage 5//psion 3/factotum 2/wizard +1/psion +1/wizard +1/psion +1/factotum +1.
You get the 5th-level bonus feats from psion and wizard, full manifesting in both, and you'll have 8 levels in factotum at Mind Mage 10 (level 15), with ML and CL 25. Continue with Cerebremancer//[non-casting dips], or get your favourite PrCs in there. Note that you would start the game with the ability to add your Mind Mage level to either CL or ML, once per day, for 24 hours.

[Sword-Geass]

Mind Mage (Dr. 313) is good for playing an ultimate caster. It's an arcane/psionic 8/10 theurge class

Remember that in Gestalt classes with dual advancement like Mystic Theurge, Ultimate Magus, and Mind Mage are forbidden, therefore, that class is not available. Sad thing thou.

If you go Erudite with Spell to Power, you no longer need the Wizard side, since you are manifesting powers, and casting spells from the same side.

Also, one "rule" of Gestalt optimization is to pick diametrically opposed classes, so that you complement what one does with the other, Wizard//Sorecerer is a bad combo for example, as both do the same. Another thing to try is to combine the classes actions, as Divide by Zero said, try to get one class to use your standards while the other uses mainly swift or no-actions (passive benefits).

For example an optimized Gestalt Conjurer could be something like Wizard 5/Malconvoker 5//Bard 1/Warblade 1/Bard 2-3/Wizard 6/Warblade 2-6 with Song of the White Raven and inspire courage optimization. What does he does? The Wiz side summons like no one else, while the Bard/Warblade side lets him start a bardic music (inspire courage, which buffs your summons) as a swift action, while stacking Bard and Warblade for the bonus, and at the same time increasing the survivability of the build. Pick up a Harmonising weapon or the Lingering Song feat, and in one round you have summoned some buddies, while heavily buffing them, and you are free to do whatever you want in the next round. If you also go with DFI you are a one man army.
You should try to combine things in that way.

[eggynack]

Where did you read that Psion/Wizard is good? I've never played it, since I don't really like playing wizards, but I would think that the fact that they are both "active" classes (i.e. classes that require standard actions for most of their abilities) and have the same chassis would keep them from synergizing well. I mean, any build with full T1/T2 casting is going to be good by default, but I feel like e.g. Wizard/Warblade or Psion/Factotum would be stronger.
The trick with active//active, I think, is that you need some extra actions. That way, you can turn you ordinarily weak extra slots/points into repeated novas. Psions and wizards alike are great at working the action economy, so they work rather well together. In a sense, psions are sweet in the same way that factotums are sweet, because you get to double or triple (or more) down on your awesome wizard stuff. Except it also goes the other way, with wizards being sweet in the same way that factotums are sweet (with psion), because you get to double or triple (or more) down on your awesome psion stuff.


Is the druid any good? I heard planar sheperd is great.

Indeed they are. I have a whole handbook in my signature about it, in fact. There's some stuff there about gestalt in particular, even.

[Troacctid]

One of the nice things about gestalt is that you can take partial-casting prestige classes and pair the non-casting levels with a wizard level to make them essentially full casting. Some good classes for this include Swiftblade (extra actions and excellent defensive abilities, quite strong in combat), Master Polymorphist (overpowered shapeshifting abilities), Malconvoker (overpowered summoning), Stormcaster (great for blasting), and Green Star Adept (construct immunities and crazy caster level boosts).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Remember that in Gestalt classes with dual advancement like Mystic Theurge, Ultimate Magus, and Mind Mage are forbidden, therefore, that class is not available. Sad thing thou.
That is not precisely the rule. The rule is:
Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations—such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight—should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, [for silly reasons]
It doesn't actually tell you what 'essentially class combinations' are (except for three specific examples), so you're well within your rights to argue that Mind Mage is not, in fact, 'essentially [a] class combination[s]'. Since it also says 'should be', rather than 'are', I ignore the rule even more. If your DM doesn't like it, you don't play it, but you can try to convince them first.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that, conceptually, even Mystic Theurge is not a class combination at all, but a way to build wholly different concepts - a theurge is a very different build from a focused caster (any kind), just like an unseen seer/arcane trickster-type build is very different from either straight rogue or straight wizard, and a gish is very different from a straight fighter or straight caster. In other words, the whole rule is just rubbish.

[Sword-Geass]

That is not precisely the rule. The rule is:
It doesn't actually tell you what 'essentially class combinations' are (except for three specific examples), so you're well within your rights to argue that Mind Mage is not, in fact, 'essentially [a] class combination[s]'. Since it also says 'should be', rather than 'are', I ignore the rule even more. If your DM doesn't like it, you don't play it, but you can try to convince them first.

You can try to argue, but I've yet to met someone who wouldn't dub it as double advancement. Ignoring that is a whole other story though.


In other words, the whole rule is just rubbish.

I wouldn't call it rubish, but yes, it's a shame, as there are some concepts that could work a lot better with some of those (the ones with class features, obviously). Then, I as a DM, wouldn't allow them as they are, but instead tweak them and make them take both sides, as is suggested for your uber PrC needs.

[Nyan]

What about going for Archivist on the other side? Being a regular wizard on one side and then a wizard but with the holy spells on the other? How would this look for a build (Including PrC's and stuff) and is it even good? I'm also kinda interested in that mind mage idea but I cant really grasp how it would work or what I'd be able to do.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can try to argue, but I've yet to met someone who wouldn't dub it as double advancement.
I am arguing, and you seem to be trying to handwave that. I believe I've demonstrated that the rule does not actually ban the use of any classes, or if it does, at most the three it specifically mentions. Unless you have a specific counterargument, that's where we're at.

To adress your actual beside-the-point: it's quite common in the Playground to ignore this rule.