Sense8

[Ranxerox]

Unfortunately, I discovered this show too late for the original thread, but I really love this show. I'm totally stoked that it has been green-lighted for a second season (first episode to run on Christmas, so a nice little X-mas present from Netflix there).

Anyway, I was hoping there might be some residual desire to talk about here either from people who saw it when it first came out or late arrivals to the party like me.

Obviously, it is not going to be that easy, but it seems to me that at the end of last season that the cluster was 3 moves away from checkmating Whisper.

Move 1: Keep Will drugged and/or blindfold until that can get him stuffed away in a windowless room somewhere (preferably a basement) and don't tell him where he is even then.

Move 2: Have Will make a full time job out of using his connection to Whisper to spy on him.

Move 3: Once the cluster has enough information on Whisper and his organization, Wolfgang, possibly ghosting another member of the cluster, can kill Whisper with a sniper rifle from a couple hundred yards away.

As I said, no way it is going to that easy. Still, it seems like the cluster should be starting the second season with the upper hand. It will be interesting so see how everything goes to hell for them, and whether they are able to salvage things when it does.

[Psyren]

I too love this show but don't have much to add, other than my wish from the last thread that Riley has more to do this season.

Beyond that, I'll probably re-binge it shortly before release.

[KillingAScarab]

I watched it late, but I was disappointed in the first season. Wrote a bit about that in a different thread. I guess my main question is how Sun can do anything interesting in a second season which wasn't already done in the first (other than fight scenes)?

[Psyren]

I watched it late, but I was disappointed in the first season. Wrote a bit about that in a different thread. I guess my main question is how Sun can do anything interesting in a second season which wasn't already done in the first (other than fight scenes)?

Well, aside from being a kung-fu master she's also a financial genius. It was her analysis of the books that turned up her brother's fraud after all. There's any number of subplots where that could be relevant, especially with a world-class hacker and burglar being both on the team also. Between the three of them they could take down Citigroup.

[LibraryOgre]

I would think, after the first season, the second season could easily involve the takedown of Whispers.

But Lilly Wachowski is out of season 2, it looks like. (http://tvline.com/2016/05/26/sense8-lilly-wachowski-exits-season-2-netflix/)

[Psyren]

I'm not too worried yet. I always felt Lana had the stronger hand on the tiller between the sisters.

[Legato Endless]

So apparently Cepheus is getting recast after some sort of dispute with the show runners.


I watched it late, but I was disappointed in the first season. Wrote a bit about that in a different thread. I guess my main question is how Sun can do anything interesting in a second season which wasn't already done in the first (other than fight scenes)?

It is certainly a show that is often more experimental than polished. However I am hoping season 2 goes into more unconventional directions beyond merely defeating Whispers and Jonas revealing his Magneto agenda and really starts to exploit the premise.

[Ranxerox]

I watched it late, but I was disappointed in the first season. Wrote a bit about that in a different thread. I guess my main question is how Sun can do anything interesting in a second season which wasn't already done in the first (other than fight scenes)?

I think you are looking at Sun wrong. The question is not what she can do for the others; it is what the others can do for her.

At the end of the first season, Sun is in prison for a crime that she did not commit, and her patricidal brother is running around free. Also, since she is already locked up, she is a sitting duck for Whisper's organization. Now despite her status as supreme HTH badass of the cluster, she can't just punch her way out of jail. However, with the aid of the rest cluster breaking out is a definite possibility. Even once she breaks out of prison, she will still need the rest of the cluster because she will be a wanted fugitive and will be gunning for her brother who is rich, powerful, ruthless and has friends in low places.

That is just external crap though. Sun's real development is likely to be internal. It is sad that she has a richer life in prison than she did in her luxury penthouse. In the penthouse, all she had was sadness, loneliness, duty and anger. In prison she has friends, comrades and art. She still has a ways to go before she is a fully realized individual. It is not a coincidence that she was one of the few members of the cluster not to participate in the group sex scene. It not just about sex though; the sex is just symbolic. Sun is a sensate who does not know how to open herself up to others. I suspect that in season 2 she will make progress on this.

Other unresolved subplots from season 1:
* The missing girl from Will's childhood
* Kala's marriage dilemma
* Wolfgang's view of himself as a monster
* Capheus your mom still has AIDS and your boss is a monster
* Nomi your mom is a monster and you probably wish she had AIDS (well, no you don't because you are much too nice for that, but still ...)



I'm sure that there are people who would like Sense8 focus on its science fiction elements, but the producers of Sense8 are obviously interested in talking about life. So I don't see the character's personal problems and issues fading into the completely background in order to make way sensate hunter storyline any time soon. Hopefully the series will last long enough to deal with all the character's personal story arcs, because until the personal arcs have all been at least addressed, the science fiction action part of the story is unlikely to be resolved.

[KillingAScarab]

Well, aside from being a kung-fu master she's also a financial genius. It was her analysis of the books that turned up her brother's fraud after all. There's any number of subplots where that could be relevant, especially with a world-class hacker and burglar being both on the team also. Between the three of them they could take down Citigroup.We have real headlines about hackers (https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/05/26/2212249/anonymous-hackers-turned-stock-analysts-are-targeting-us-chinese-corporations) which aren't too far off from that, so when you factor in Hollywood magical hackers (which the Wachowski's get a bit of a pass on since, y'know, The Matrix), Sun's finance background seems a bit redundant.


I think you are looking at Sun wrong. The question is not what she can do for the others; it is what the others can do for her.

At the end of the first season, Sun is in prison for a crime that she did not commit, and her patricidal brother is running around free. Also, since she is already locked up, she is a sitting duck for Whisper's organization. Now despite her status as supreme HTH badass of the cluster, she can't just punch her way out of jail. However, with the aid of the rest cluster breaking out is a definite possibility. Even once she breaks out of prison, she will still need the rest of the cluster because she will be a wanted fugitive and will be gunning for her brother who is rich, powerful, ruthless and has friends in low places.True, her father's murder does give her a potential motivation for wanting to take down her brother and take back her family's business. If she could tear down nearly everything oppressive within it in the process, including how others in the industry interact with her, so much the better. If they would actually let her be supported in the way Nomi was during her flight from the police, I could get behind a Sun ascendant storyline.


It is not a coincidence that she was one of the few members of the cluster not to participate in the group sex scene. It not just about sex though; the sex is just symbolic. Sun is a sensate who does not know how to open herself up to others. I suspect that in season 2 she will make progress on this.This is where you lose me. Here are my previous thoughts on Sense8 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20664141&postcount=126) if you wish to know why.


But Lilly Wachowski is out of season 2, it looks like. (http://tvline.com/2016/05/26/sense8-lilly-wachowski-exits-season-2-netflix/)


So apparently Cepheus is getting recast after some sort of dispute with the show runners.Trouble with my other favorite character from the show?
Now I really am worried that what I feared would happen after every Riley scene actually will: one of the sensate's intoxication spills over into Capheus while he's driving, he crashes and someone dies. If not Capheus himself, one of this many passengers he's responsible for.

[Ranxerox]

This is where you lose me. Here are my previous thoughts on Sense8 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20664141&postcount=126) if you wish to know why.


I'm pretty sure that Jonas doesn't say, "normal humans are the best killers"; he says that "humans are the best killers". He isn't comparing humans to sensates, he is comparing them to the rest of the animal kingdom. JMS and the Wachowski sisters felt a need to try to explains how sensates could do their long distance mental bond thing so they decided to introduce the New Agey pseudo science idea that all living things are in connected to each other, and then the twist humans are the exceptions to this and that is what makes us alpha predators.

Sensates are basically human except that with a small group of other humans they experience the same connection that other animals feel with pretty much everything. Being basically human, sensates can share the human talent for killing without the show contradicting itself. I strongly suspect that the show will make a case that being a sensate makes you a better person, but Wolfgang is a brand new sensate who has a personal journey in front of him and clearly Whisper is a sensate without a cluster.

As for Will being an awful cop, Will didn't become a cop to support law and order or because he is a huge believer in following the rules; he became a cop in order to help people in need. It all goes back to that missing girl that he had a psychic connection with, but was unable to save. The experience left him with a deep need to rescue people and he doesn't care if the rules get in the way. Will is Chaotic Good not Lawful Good. That may make him an awful cop, but it is who he is.

[KillingAScarab]

I'm pretty sure that Jonas doesn't say, "normal humans are the best killers"; he says that "humans are the best killers". He isn't comparing humans to sensates, he is comparing them to the rest of the animal kingdom. JMS and the Wachowski sisters felt a need to try to explains how sensates could do their long distance mental bond thing so they decided to introduce the New Agey pseudo science idea that all living things are in connected to each other, and then the twist humans are the exceptions to this and that is what makes us alpha predators.

Sensates are basically human except that with a small group of other humans they experience the same connection that other animals feel with pretty much everything. Being basically human, sensates can share the human talent for killing without the show contradicting itself. I strongly suspect that the show will make a case that being a sensate makes you a better person, but Wolfgang is a brand new sensate who has a personal journey in front of him and clearly Whisper is a sensate without a cluster.

As for Will being an awful cop, Will didn't become a cop to support law and order or because he is a huge believer in following the rules; he became a cop in order to help people in need. It all goes back to that missing girl that he had a psychic connection with, but was unable to save. The experience left him with a deep need to rescue people and he doesn't care if the rules get in the way. Will is Chaotic Good not Lawful Good. That may make him an awful cop, but it is who he is. Jonas came off to me as feeling better than human, not just happy about having abilities which let him see things differently. Not outright superior, but it was enough to immediately take me out of the moment to poke holes in it. By that point, I think Wolfgang had not used his abilities to do much, but Whispers was already leading his own private army which at least one person would rather die than meet.

Also, as someone who has taken a good long look at animal life, there's a certain ignorance I don't have which I think the show operates on. Maybe the planet this psycillium exists on doesn't have wasps which inject mind control drugs into the brains of insects they want to use as living hosts for their eggs (http://eol.org/pages/3773572/details) until they hatch and feed on it, or ants which enslave other ants (http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20151028-a-few-species-of-ant-are-pirates-that-enslave-other-ants), or ducks which evolve genitals which can prevent insemination after rape by their same species, but what if it still does?

I strongly wanted Will to retire and become a psychic detective. It would have removed the conflict of interest and the only police asset he would lose was Diego, who didn't really do anything for the story beyond the bar scene. Won't get to see Private Psi Will now that he's the new Angelica.

[-D-]

Also, as someone who has taken a good long look at animal life, there's a certain ignorance I don't have which I think the show operates on. Maybe the planet this psycillium exists on doesn't have wasps which inject mind control drugs into the brains of insects they want to use as living hosts for their eggs (http://eol.org/pages/3773572/details) until they hatch and feed on it, or ants which enslave other ants (http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20151028-a-few-species-of-ant-are-pirates-that-enslave-other-ants), or ducks which evolve genitals which can prevent insemination after rape by their same species, but what if it still does?


Or a planet where dolphins don't use seal's head as a beach ball. Or a planet where lots of animals kill for ****s and giggles (e.g. cat). But hey, maybe they are only linked to same species. Not that it prevents primates to wage brutal war on each other, or that it prevents certain insects from bursting out of their pregnant mother and consuming them. Or prevents bonobos (yes, the fun groupie monkeys) from engaging in cannibalism.

Yeah, this is one of things that puts me off this series. It's too idealistic. What happens if you end up in a cluster with child molester or someone that gets his high on killing people[1] ? You can't really put them in a prison, without significantly impacting your cluster's well being. And if you don't do something you end up as unwitting accomplice, or worse if you get habituated to their sensations. But I doubt the series will delve into these tricky matters.

[1]It's not impossible, Wolfgang is pretty ****ed up individual

[Psyren]

Animals do some messed up stuff, but nothing on par with what we can do. I think it's still possible to draw that line.


We have real headlines about hackers (https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/05/26/2212249/anonymous-hackers-turned-stock-analysts-are-targeting-us-chinese-corporations) which aren't too far off from that, so when you factor in Hollywood magical hackers (which the Wachowski's get a bit of a pass on since, y'know, The Matrix), Sun's finance background seems a bit redundant.

But it's not. Getting into a system to see all the numbers is one thing; being trained/able to recognize the patterns and trends that indicate fraud is quite another. This could easily be a skill for Sun to demonstrate going forward since she's already done so once.

And I wasn't even thinking about her father's business; there is pretty clearly a corporation behind the antagonists who are killing off other clusters with their private army. Cutting off their funding or exposing them (or both) is going to be key to stopping them.

[-D-]

Animals do some messed up stuff, but nothing on par with what we can do. I think it's still possible to draw that line.
I think you are too rose tinted about animals.

We aren't that different. Hell we can't even claim that only humans can destroy earth. Oxygen producers already almost killed every other thing and themselves in the process.

[KillingAScarab]

Thanks, -D-, I thought about primate gang fights and such later. I also think Wolfgang could definitely be an interesting point of contention if they want to explore at what point does someone in a new group become ostracized.


I think you are too rose tinted about animals.

We aren't that different. Hell we can't even claim that only humans can destroy earth. Oxygen producers already almost killed every other thing and themselves in the process.As for the late Devonian extinction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Devonian_extinction), I think it is difficult to place blame on plants for growing, dying and not decaying. Still, a modern psycillium would likely include plants which strangle other plants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vines).

[-D-]

As for the late Devonian extinction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Devonian_extinction), I think it is difficult to place blame on plants for growing, dying and not decaying. Still, a modern psycillium would likely include plants which strangle other plants (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vines).

I was thinking more along the lines of Great Oxygenation Event (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxygenation_Event), when cyanobacterias decided that photosynthesis was great. Only problem was that it was that byproduct oxygen was deadly poison for most of life on Earth. Cue mass extinction, cue massive global change (snowball earth), cue huge disappearance of anaerobic organisms.

[Psyren]

I was thinking more along the lines of Great Oxygenation Event (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxygenation_Event), when cyanobacterias decided that photosynthesis was great. Only problem was that it was that byproduct oxygen was deadly poison for most of life on Earth. Cue mass extinction, cue massive global change (snowball earth), cue huge disappearance of anaerobic organisms.

Yeah, but you can't attach a moral judgment to this event as cyanobacteria aren't intelligent. This is more a matter of biology finding an equilibrium - oxygen-breathing life forms ended up dominant as a result, but it wasn't deliberate, and life as a whole wasn't harmed, it simply adapted and evolved.

What humans can do - and in most industriaized nations, are actively doing - is very different. More importantly, it's happening too fast for life to adapt, and so we're losing various endangered species and harming whole biospheres/systems (like the Great Barrier Reef), some beyond repair.

[-D-]

Yeah, but you can't attach a moral judgment to this event as cyanobacteria aren't intelligent. This is more a matter of biology finding an equilibrium - oxygen-breathing life forms ended up dominant as a result, but it wasn't deliberate, and life as a whole wasn't harmed, it simply adapted and evolved.

What humans can do - and in most industriaized nations, are actively doing - is very different. More importantly, it's happening too fast for life to adapt, and so we're losing various endangered species and harming whole biospheres/systems (like the Great Barrier Reef), some beyond repair.
I fear we're going into off topic, but it's not that different behavior. We, just like cyanobacteria are optimizing for short term gains, everything else be damned. Cyanobacterias managed to wipe out a large portion of total life. Not even us, with our fancy CO2 and nuclear weapons, will manage to wipe out most bacteria, even if total nuclear holocaust. Bacterias are super resistant and there are pockets of life hidden deep in oceans that can repopulate in case of catastrophe.

[Psyren]

I fear we're going into off topic, but it's not that different behavior. We, just like cyanobacteria are optimizing for short term gains, everything else be damned. Cyanobacterias managed to wipe out a large portion of total life. Not even us, with our fancy CO2 and nuclear weapons, will manage to wipe out most bacteria, even if total nuclear holocaust. Bacterias are super resistant and there are pockets of life hidden deep in oceans that can repopulate in case of catastrophe.


You might be right that some form of life will survive any kind of catastrophe we can dream up, but that still doesn't change the fact that we are sapient while bacteria aren't. So my point stands - one extinction event was a biological process taken to an extreme, while the other is a conscious choice being made by a species - or more accurately, the top economic 1% of said species - who can simply choose to optimize differently if we truly wish.

I'm reminded of Dumbledore's lesson to Harry in Sorcerer's Stone, concerning why the Sorting Hat put him in Gryffindor instead of Slytherin. The answer was very simple, and it's just as simple here.

[-D-]

You might be right that some form of life will survive any kind of catastrophe we can dream up, but that still doesn't change the fact that we are sapient while bacteria aren't. So my point stands - one extinction event was a biological process taken to an extreme, while the other is a conscious choice being made by a species - or more accurately, the top economic 1% of said species - who can simply choose to optimize differently if we truly wish.

I'm reminded of Dumbledore's lesson to Harry in Sorcerer's Stone, concerning why the Sorting Hat put him in Gryffindor instead of Slytherin. The answer was very simple, and it's just as simple here.
Wasn't the point that all animals are *******s to each other, even though they should have power of Sensates? In context of their lower sapience it makes no sense. They feedback they get plus their more instinctive behavior, should prevent wolves from eating deers, so unless all animals are vegan, it's just incredibly naive.

Also, I doubt it's as conscious choice as you present it. People in power are probably way too insulated from warming's effect to truly care. For them the prospect of losing wealth is way, way more worse than heating up earth by 2C in next century or so. Also this isn't just top 1%. People that work in oil industry will also be affected, as well as any human who relies on money from people with petrol dollars.

Hypothetically, if your dad/mom worked in oil industry and had a choice of working to have enough money to support his family or working something else and barely making ends meet, which one is more sapient to take?

[Psyren]

Wasn't the point that all animals are *******s to each other, even though they should have power of Sensates? In context of their lower sapience it makes no sense. They feedback they get plus their more instinctive behavior, should prevent wolves from eating deers, so unless all animals are vegan, it's just incredibly naive.

Again, no one is denying that nature can be brutal or even cruel. There's numerous examples upthread. But humans have both greater capacity for it (due to volition and force-multiplying tools) and a greater history of actually using that capacity/potential to do terrible things. Wolves, deer and bacteria meanwhile are not sapient.



Also, I doubt it's as conscious choice as you present it. People in power are probably way too insulated from warming's effect to truly care. For them the prospect of losing wealth is way, way more worse than heating up earth by 2C in next century or so. Also this isn't just top 1%. People that work in oil industry will also be affected, as well as any human who relies on money from people with petrol dollars.

Hypothetically, if your dad/mom worked in oil industry and had a choice of working to have enough money to support his family or working something else and barely making ends meet, which one is more sapient to take?

That's a tough question and I don't pretend to know the answer. If renewables were totally viable right now and we switched the entire country to them overnight, that's a lot of coal/oil towns that would end up staring poverty in the face, my hypothetical father included.

But all that is besides the point; I think the real power of a sensate is being able to truly experience the perspective of another - or in this case, 7 others. It's not that they are better people than regular humans, it's that they have greater capacity for empathy - due to knowing, in a way that other humans can't know, what it's really like to walk in someone else's shoes.

Now, that capacity for empathy can itself make them better people than (most) humans. But it's an indirect link rather than a 1:1 cause. More importantly, it's possible for a sensate to be misanthropic (Wolfgang) or downright sociopathic (Whispers.) So it's not a guarantee, but I don't recall the show ever saying it was.

[-D-]

Again, no one is denying that nature can be brutal or even cruel. There's numerous examples upthread. But humans have both greater capacity for it (due to volition and force-multiplying tools) and a greater history of actually using that capacity/potential to do terrible things. Wolves, deer and bacteria meanwhile are not sapient.
But that is kinda my point. The reasoning behind Sensate powers is what animals naturally have. If animals had that kind of powers, they would behave differently than what we know animals behave in real world.

Only way you can believe that mumbo-jumbo, is if your knowledge of animals is second-rate at best. Literally, same thing happens, with how we interpret ancient people (e.g. Indians), were more in tune with the nature, forgetting that ancient people were more brutal to each other than today's humans ever will (e.g. practice of scalping people).

[KillingAScarab]

Wasn't the point that all animals are *******s to each other, even though they should have power of Sensates?Yes, or rather, that they have the capacity in real life to do things many people reserve as possible only for humans. The most the show has explored the capabilities of other animals has been the comment about what a zebra looks like after meeting a lion and the exchange between Will and Diego about his dog.


Again, no one is denying that nature can be brutal or even cruel.You, -D- and I haven't been. But, I was responding to Ranxerox's point regarding the cause behind Sense8 humans being alpha predators... which is really a mis-classification. If you want a world ruled by an alpha predator, imagine if amphibious attack tigers...http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KVvyG1AmNvk/TNWfOmekgLI/AAAAAAAAABw/BCvLDFEw3yM/s1600/Amphibious+Attack+Tiger.jpg...also had wings.

[Legato Endless]

Watch a flock of birds or a shoal of fish move as one... and you glimpse where we came from. Ask how aspen trees feel trauma hundreds of miles apart, or how a mushroom can understand the needs of a forest... you'd begin to grasp what we are. Our kind has been here since the beginning.

In the end, it doesn't matter who came first. All that matters is the fact that one small chromosomal mutation severed them from their connection to nature, and to each other. That isolation has allowed them to focus on the one thing they do better than any species in history. Killing is easy... when you can feel nothing.

So pulling the quote directly off a transcript, Jonas is point is due to our lack of cosmic connection humans kill 'better' because we lack some fundamental empathy everyone else. Which is yeah, kind of bizarre in the context of species murdering, raping and wiping each other and themselves out. It also probably presumes all animals follow a social psychology, mostly because the enhanced empathy of a cluster sense makes very little sense in the context of solitary animals.

What's fundamentally strange is, if anything, the comment makes a lot of other species appear worse, because that means all the painful hideous things that occur with rapt regularity in nature happen between connected animals who feel what they're doing to others. Even if it's only within a species, and Jonas comment about fungus appears to contradict that, it's still kind difficult as a thesis given how certain species kill with the same regularity we do sans actual explanations like technology allowing humans to change their environment more efficiently.

[KillingAScarab]

So pulling the quote directly off a transcript, Jonas is point is due to our lack of cosmic connection humans kill 'better' because we lack some fundamental empathy everyone else. Which is yeah, kind of bizarre in the context of species murdering, raping and wiping each other and themselves out. It also probably presumes all animals follow a social psychology, mostly because the enhanced empathy of a cluster sense makes very little sense in the context of solitary animals.

What's fundamentally strange is, if anything, the comment makes a lot of other species appear worse, because that means all the painful hideous things that occur with rapt regularity in nature happen between connected animals who feel what they're doing to others. Even if it's only within a species, and Jonas comment about fungus appears to contradict that, it's still kind difficult as a thesis given how certain species kill with the same regularity we do sans actual explanations like technology allowing humans to change their environment more efficiently.There's much in this I want to respond to, but right now I'm having difficulty getting beyond the fact someone wrote "thesis" and not "theory" when they very well weren't talking about a well-tested hypothesis. :smalleek: I'm sorry, but I have to praise the good things when I see them. :smallbiggrin:

I will have to wait until later to be upset about Jonas, again.

[-D-]

There's much in this I want to respond to, but right now I'm having difficulty getting beyond the fact someone wrote "thesis" and not "theory" when they very well weren't talking about a well-tested hypothesis. :smalleek: I'm sorry, but I have to praise the good things when I see them. :smallbiggrin:

I will have to wait until later to be upset about Jonas, again.
On the other hand Jonas could have been just full of it. Not everyone agrees with him. Yrsa thought his opinions on inter-cluster romances were narcissistic at best. Wouldn't it make sense that a narcissist would want to justify his existence, while simultaneously belittling other humans, who he finds beneath him?

[BRC]

On the other hand Jonas could have been just full of it. Not everyone agrees with him. Yrsa thought his opinions on inter-cluster romances were narcissistic at best. Wouldn't it make sense that a narcissist would want to justify his existence, while simultaneously deriding all others.

Also, the Cluster certainly seems to have no qualms about Violence.

There is a thing that the Show does, that either makes a lot of sense, or is really stupid depending on your view. The members of the Cluster are always, unquestioningly, on the same side. Will doesn't seem to have any issues when it comes to helping Wulfgang carry out his revenge-murder spree. Which I guess makes sense, they're all connected and stuff.

I suppose it makes more sense to say that members of a cluster would have difficulty killing each other, rather than to say that non-sensate humans are better killers. It's just that a Sensate has a group of 7 people who they would have substantially more trouble killing.

I'm personally fond of the "Jonas has no idea what he's talking about" take on everything Jonas says.