"Non-Divine" Divine Grace

[Yogibear41]

I'm looking for an ability that is basically a clone of Divine grace that does not come from a Divine spell-casting class, or more specifically a class that is not granted its abilities by deities (for this assume things like cleric/paladins come from deities, but things like rangers/druids do not, even though technically rules exist for godless clerics/paladins)

I know of the Hexblade ability but would prefer something that applies to all saves not just most of them. 2nd and 3rd party sources are fine. I would also like something that is full BAB and compatible with a LE alignment if possible.

[Gildedragon]

Paladins don't get their power from gods; and the Spell-Less variant isn't a spell caster at all.
Crusaders get Indomitable Soul which is like DG but only to Will

On the Evil side:
Paladins of Slaughter and Tyranny (CE and LE respectively) still get DG; as do the Anti-Paladin, Corrupter, Enforcer, and Despot (CE, NE, NE, LE) variants from DR 312. Combine with Spell-Less paladin if you don't want the magics

[Divide by Zero]

The Blackguard's Dark Blessing feature is functionally identical, and I don't see anything in the class that requires divine worship.

[Yogibear41]

In our setting all divine spells come from deities, with the exception of druids and things which behave similar to druids(spirit shamans, rangers, etc.) which get their spells from the power of nature. We base how things work off the 1st edition rules of 1st and 2nd level spells come from training, higher level spells come from powerful outsiders that serve your deity, and the highest level spells come from your deity personally. I am working on a character that has forsaken his deity, so I believe if I went one of the evil paladin variants I would still have access to 1st and 2nd level spells but the others would be out of my reach, unless I found a way to power them. I am unsure about the other abilities however, and have not had a chance to ask my DM. But if I find something that would let me replicate the divine grace ability of a paladin from a different power source I would rather just go that route instead.


Your mention of the "spell-less" variant does give me an idea though, I could potentially go that route and have my powers come from something else, would be something I would have to discuss with my DM.

[Divide by Zero]

In our setting all divine spells come from deities, with the exception of druids and things which behave similar to druids(spirit shamans, rangers, etc.) which get their spells from the power of nature. We base how things work off the 1st edition rules of 1st and 2nd level spells come from training, higher level spells come from powerful outsiders that serve your deity, and the highest level spells come from your deity personally. I am working on a character that has forsaken his deity, so I believe if I went one of the evil paladin variants I would still have access to 1st and 2nd level spells but the others would be out of my reach, unless I found a way to power them. I am unsure about the other abilities however, and have not had a chance to ask my DM. But if I find something that would let me replicate the divine grace ability of a paladin from a different power source I would rather just go that route instead.


Your mention of the "spell-less" variant does give me an idea though, I could potentially go that route and have my powers come from something else, would be something I would have to discuss with my DM.

Paladin/Blackguard casting really isn't all that great without cheese, so you'd probably be perfectly functional with only 1st/2nd level spells, or you could just multiclass out as soon as you got Divine Grace/Dark Blessing.

Only other thing that comes to mind is to be a nymph or gloura (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e), which have a pile of RHD and LA but also get Cha as a Deflection bonus to AC and have some innate casting to cushion the pain. Dunno if you could make it fit your character concept though.

[A_S]

The X Stat to Y Bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) is your friend. Bookmark it, buy it a nice dinner, and always text it back promptly.

From it, I see: A couple things from Oriental Adventures (Akodo Champion, Witch Hunter)
Corrupt Avenger (from Heroes of Horror, non-evil, uses the Taint mechanic)
Defiant (Planar Handbook, vs. divine spells only)
Hexblade (vs. spells only)
Slayer of Domiel (BoED, Exalted version of Assassin, might be too divine flavored for you)
There's also a Warlock invocation, Dark One's Own Luck, that gives you this, but only to one save at a time.

[Yogibear41]

Paladin/Blackguard casting really isn't all that great without cheese, so you'd probably be perfectly functional with only 1st/2nd level spells, or you could just multiclass out as soon as you got Divine Grace/Dark Blessing.


I am actually completely fine with that, thing is I don't know if I get to keep the Divine Grace/Dark Blessing ability or not, its something I haven't had a chance to ask my DM. I'm basically looking for something in case he says I don't keep it.


The X Stat to Y Bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) is your friend. Bookmark it, buy it a nice dinner, and always text it back promptly.

From it, I see: A couple things from Oriental Adventures (Akodo Champion, Witch Hunter)
Corrupt Avenger (from Heroes of Horror, non-evil, uses the Taint mechanic)
Defiant (Planar Handbook, vs. divine spells only)
Hexblade (vs. spells only)
Slayer of Domiel (BoED, Exalted version of Assassin, might be too divine flavored for you)
There's also a Warlock invocation, Dark One's Own Luck, that gives you this, but only to one save at a time.

I know it well :smallsmile: most of those are Divine based, the Corrupt Avenger might work, but I will be evil (although I always felt like they meant non-good for that class instead of non-evil and just typed it wrong) , and would like to avoid taint if possible.

[Zylas]

Consider playing a Gloura. They aren't half bad if you can buy off the LA.
WIth sublime chord and lyric thaumaturge or abjurant champion, you can easily turn them into a sorcerer or a gish.

If you want something a bit more nature-themed, Gloura make a nice base for Fochluan Lyrist too.
For example: Gloura 7 / Druid 1 (take the urban companion ACF) / Divine Oracle 2 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochluan Lyrist 9

Or play a nymph if you want to go even more druidic, but that LA is harsh.

Alternatively, you can do this for single saves with spells and invocations.
Ruin Delver's Fortune (SpC p.178, possibly persisted)
Dark One's Own Luck (CA, warlock invocation)

Or int-based with a Factotum, which takes up resources but is a free action, and with font of inspiration stacking buffing your saves is never really an issue. Especially not if you do a manyshot build.

[Yogibear41]

Found the "Noble Knight" class in the 3rd party book: I, Modred the Fall and Rise of Camelot. That gives an (Ex) Divine Grace ability at level 8. Class is basically a fighter with 4+ skill points, less bonus feats, a few minor class features. Interestingly enough though its bonus feats can be Any feat, so that might be something at least. Figured I'd post what I found in case others were interested.

[Shalist]

But if I find something that would let me replicate the divine grace ability of a paladin from a different power source I would rather just go that route instead.

This spell from 'Planar Factions' (3rd party, they made it all OGC though) exist specifically for hooking divine classes up to a new power source (i.e. a high-ranking devil):

Black Faith
Abjuration
[/B]Level: Clr 8
Component: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: 5 ft./level radius
Duration: See below
Saving Throw: None/Will negates (see below)
Spell Resistance: No

This ritual enchants a number of other divine casters so that their prayers are heard by the caster’s own deity or patron, rather than their own. The deity or patron can then grant them the power to cast divine spells, and to use divinely oriented spell-like and supernatural abilities. The subjects of the spell must voluntarily participate in the ritual, although they need not know what it is, and in fact black faith is designed to be easily concealed within in apparently innocent religious service of any variety. (The Spellcraft DC to identify black faith is 31, rather than the standard 23 for identifying an 8th-level spell, unless the character attempting the check is specifically looking for this precise spell.)

The spell works flawlessly for a full week. If the spell is not renewed on a given subject within a week, that subject receives a Will save on the eighth day; success indicates the effects of black faith have faded and the subject’s prayers reach her deity as normal. The subject gains another save for each additional day that passes, until either the spell is thrown off or renewed. A subject who successfully throws off black faith is entitled to a Wisdom check (DC equal to the spellcaster’s caster level) to realize that something has been wrong, though she may not realize precisely what.

This spell is most often used to fool divine spellcasters into believing that they are still acting with the approval of their deity — and thus still receiving spells — when they have, in fact, been tricked into acting outside their alignment or their deity’s dictates.
(edit): Obviously your character isn't being tricked, but this would give him more options about where the power is coming from, and let him keep using his paladin abilities as if no alignment change had occurred.

Heck, you wouldn't even have to choose between divine grace and dark blessings; you could conceivably be benefiting from both.

[ExLibrisMortis]

There is the spell ruin delver's fortune, which adds your charisma bonus as luck bonus to a single save of your choice, plus an extra ability (immunity to poison, evasion, or immunity to fear). The spell lasts only 1d4 rounds, so you absolutely need to persist it, but if you can do that, you're golden.

[BWR]

Paladins don't get their power from gods


This actually depends. In FR, for instance, all divine magic and power is from the gods, even if the recipients don't believe it to be. Paladins, like clerics, can get their powers from gods , some other divine source or sheer belief.

[Gildedragon]

This actually depends. In FR, for instance, all divine magic and power is from the gods, even if the recipients don't believe it to be. Paladins, like clerics, can get their powers from gods , some other divine source or sheer belief.

In FR -ALL- magic comes from the gods either by the weave or the shadow weave

[Psyren]

If 2nd and 3rd party are fine, why not just homebrew something? (Or write it up, "publish it" online via DanDwiki, and show it your DM.)

[Jormengand]

Vampire Lord template gives you this, but it's difficult to obtain (be a vampire for 100 years and survive an assassination attempt from your own ex-thrall).

[BWR]

In FR -ALL- magic comes from the gods either by the weave or the shadow weave

I know, which was part of my point. Setting matters more than rules and even the rules don't say what some people think they do.

[Gildedragon]

I know, which was part of my point. Setting matters more than rules and even the rules don't say what some people think they do.

The rules default on the paladin requires no deity nor an ideology beyond the affiliation to abstract Law & Good
But that's neither here nor there. There are pally variants for all evil alignments, all keeping the class feature the OP wants and a class variant that removes the casting.

[Yogibear41]

If 2nd and 3rd party are fine, why not just homebrew something? (Or write it up, "publish it" online via DanDwiki, and show it your DM.)

I've used homebrew before, but its kind of a: if its from a published book, as opposed to just being made my some random guy on the internet, its better. Even if they could essentially be the same thing. Having something as a pdf or hardcopy book for the DMs reference make his life easier too, and I have thrown so much crazy stuff at him over the years I try not to do anything to far out there.

[ShurikVch]

Few more things:
Eldeen Ranger 3 (Eberron Campaign Setting) Greensingers - Unearthly Grace
Shaman 5 (Oriental Adventures) Spirits’ Favor
Mysticism Domain Power (Complete Divine): 1/day, for 1 round/level
Evil’s Blessing [Vile] feat (Elder Evils): as a standard action, for 5 rounds