What are three problems of archery? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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ayvango

2016-05-21, 01:04 AM

I've heard that there are three major problems of archery in the 3.5 edition. Could you enumerate them?

A_S

2016-05-21, 02:12 AM

1. It's much harder to get big damage bonuses on ranged attacks than it is on melee attacks. Power Attack and its associated feats, stacking effective size increases...lots of the go-to ways to optimize for damage are melee only, or much better with melee attacks. Even Sneak Attack is restricted to a range of 30 feet. Archery makes up for this somewhat by making it pretty easy to get a whole lot of attacks per round, but that's weak against opponents with DR, and means that you absolutely have to be making full attacks to deal relevant damage.

2. Archery is poorly supported in splatbooks, often for no good reason. Tome of Battle? Practically no maneuvers that can be used with ranged attacks. Duskblade channeling? Melee only. Staggering strike? Melee only.

3. A lot of games are run in such a way that archery's biggest advantage (long range) is close to irrelevant. In theory, being able to make attacks from a long way away should get you several rounds worth of unanswered attacks against melee-only foes. In practice, a lot of DM's put most of their fights in enclosed spaces (dungeons, inside, etc.), or don't give the PC's the chance to detect their foes until they're up close. Often, the beginning of a fight will be a description of some enemies you've encountered, and then the DM will set up the game board with the combatants already <100 feet apart. So much for several rounds worth of free shooting.

Divide by Zero

2016-05-21, 02:24 AM

I don't think I've ever seen such a list explicitly enumerated, but another problem that comes to mind is that archery is very feat-intensive - about on par with TWF (another much-maligned combat style), but much worse than 2H.

A_S

2016-05-21, 02:27 AM

Erm, yeah, my post above is just "the top three problems I can think of with 3.5 archery," not some kind of canonical These Are The Three Problems Of Archery.

Zombimode

2016-05-21, 02:40 AM

While the problems the other posters have mentioned exist, they appear more problematic on paper then it actual gameplay.

One big advantage of archery is the ability to make full attacks from turn one without jumping through any hoops. Plus it gets one of the easiest ways of getting an extra attack.
In the 1-12 level bracket at least, archery is just fine.

Personally the biggest problem archery has is the lack of variety. There aren't that many ways to build an archer and almost all of them include Rapid Shot.

ZeroiaSD

2016-05-21, 03:14 AM

Feat tax is part of it.

Shooting into melee is something you *really* need to do, as foes being in melee (with an ally, summon, animal companion, whatever) is the number 1 method for keeping them at range, but it takes two feats to get there without being at -4.

Tvtyrant

2016-05-21, 03:24 AM

There are two problems really.
1. It takes a lot of resources. Magic item stacking, MAD, feats, spells and buffs, resources of every kind.
2. It has no actual advantages over melee, since after low levels you are going to be hidden at all times or are going to teleport into melee range anyway.

Troacctid

2016-05-21, 03:33 AM

Seppo87

2016-05-21, 03:43 AM

Wind wall invalidates archery, no save no check

Melcar

2016-05-21, 03:44 AM

I've heard that there are three major problems of archery in the 3.5 edition. Could you enumerate them?

How high optimization are we talking? And at what level? And so we allow 3rd party for that 5-20 x8, 550 ft. range increment sniper?

Eldan

2016-05-21, 04:14 AM

Even with low optimizatoin, damage is much lower than melee. Compare three styles at level 1, without feats and middling stats:

Longbow archery: 1d8 damage. Average: 4.5
Longsword: 1d8 +3 (strenght) damage. Average: 7.5
Greatsword: 2d6+5 (strenght) damage. Average: 10. More than double.

It only gets worse when power attack is factored in. You can easily slap on another 3 damage at level 1 on a greatsword. And the longsword guy can use a shield for armor, instead.

Then, you get penalties for shooting into melee. In a boss fight, your fighter will almost always be in melee with whatever. Honestly, in most fights. So, that's a feat penalty. Then you get cover, which is rarely a problem in melee. Feat penalty. And so on, and so on.

ON the other hand, there's the occasional moment where you assassinate an enemy from three streets away from a rooftop, and those are totally worth it.

Novawurmson

2016-05-21, 04:15 AM

Melcar

2016-05-21, 04:23 AM

Divide by Zero

2016-05-21, 04:32 AM

You do know, that there is no limmit on the strength bonus one can apply to a comp long or short bow.... And precise shot, rapid shot, weapon focus, weapon focus are easely taken by a fighter. So is point blank.

So a comp longbow : 1d8+3 str+1 point blank avarage 8.5
Great Crosbow: 2d8+1 average 10

Composite bows are expensive - on average, no class can afford even a +1 bow at level 1, which is where that comparison is made. Once you get the composite bow, you now need two stats to compare, so you're just mitigating the damage gap in exchange for MADness. And at higher levels, melee attackers get much more efficient options for multiplying their damage, so you either fall behind or have to devote much more of your build resources to keep up.

Mr Adventurer

2016-05-21, 04:33 AM

Well, the limit is how much gold you have or are willing to spend. A mighty composite longbow for Str 18 costs 500gp. A masterwork mighty composite longbow for Str 30 costs 1400gp.

Edit: Deepwoods Sniper'd

Seto

2016-05-21, 04:37 AM

Melcar

2016-05-21, 04:55 AM

Composite bows are expensive - on average, no class can afford even a +1 bow at level 1, which is where that comparison is made. Once you get the composite bow, you now need two stats to compare, so you're just mitigating the damage gap in exchange for MADness. And at higher levels, melee attackers get much more efficient options for multiplying their damage, so you either fall behind or have to devote much more of your build resources to keep up.

Indeed, I'm just saying that its not impossible to follow the damage. And with splitting arrows, you would max out at something like 10 arrows... Assuming +5, collision+10 str, weapon spec, greater weapon spec, weapon mastery, then the melee will have to pull out some big guns to follow...

nedz

2016-05-21, 05:54 AM

You do know, that there is no limit on the strength bonus one can apply to a comp long or short bow....

The problem is you need to match your Bow to your strength, so if someone gives you a strength buff ...
Melee doesn't have this issue.

The impression I got was that they were trying to reward risk taking - and archery is a fairly safe option.

Anyway, the big three problems are

It's boring
You have to spend a lot of feats
It's not very effective anyway

Melcar

2016-05-21, 06:43 AM

The problem is you need to match your Bow to your strength, so if someone gives you a strength buff ...
Melee doesn't have this issue.

The impression I got was that they were trying to reward risk taking - and archery is a fairly safe option.

Anyway, the big three problems are

It's boring
You have to spend a lot of feats
It's not very effective anyway

Is it less boring than always swinging a sword?
Well if you are a fighter, the feats are not a problem, and as a fighter your are spending your feats on attack and dagamge anyways.
Not very effective.. Well it is, if your spend your feats correctly

Waazraath

2016-05-21, 07:34 AM

It annoys me that, when playing an archer, and increasing the strength score, you need a new magical composite bow to benefit from it. That just sucks. The problems mentioned above here are also valid.

Then again: a feat like many shot gives an archer the opportunity to move and 'full attack' (sort of). So even when you end up in melee, you can take your move, tumble out of reach, and make several attacks in return. Since you won't be taking full attacks (usually), you're much safer as an archer, even though you don't start a combat at 600 ft distance all too often. And there are plenty of abilities that do work nicely with archery: knowledge devotion, the abjurant champion damage bonus, the holy warrior feat, etc. etc. With many shot, you can even use damage boosts that are on 1 attack when melee (smite evil, for example), and get it on every attack you make in a round. Equipment dependency can be taken care of with 'Hanks bow' (a web enhancement thingy) or the soulbow.

So: are there problems? Yes, plenty. See above. But there are also plenty of solutions. I don't think it's particuliarly harder to make a decent archer build then that it is to make a decent melee build.

OldTrees1

2016-05-21, 08:28 AM

Is it less boring than always swinging a sword?
Well if you are a fighter, the feats are not a problem, and as a fighter your are spending your feats on attack and dagamge anyways.
Not very effective.. Well it is, if your spend your feats correctly

Is it less boring than always swinging a sword? No, it is more boring. This is the unfortunate consequence of most of the qualitative boosts to melee combat ("swinging a sword") either not existing or having high costs for archers.

As a melee fighter (although normally I suggest martial rogue over fighter) one can Push(Knockback = 3 feats), Stop(Trip=0-3 feats or Stand Still=1 feat), Debuff(Staggering Strike=1 feat thru Three Mountian=5 feats), Neutralize(Imperious Command =1feat + Fearsome armor or Ftr 9)

As a ranged fighter: Just look up how to trip someone and how constrained/nerfed ranged tripping is to melee tripping.

nedz

2016-05-21, 09:00 AM

Is it less boring than always swinging a sword?
Well if you are a fighter, the feats are not a problem, and as a fighter your are spending your feats on attack and damage anyways.
Not very effective.. Well it is, if your spend your feats correctly

The first point depends upon the game, but ideally combat should feature tactics which require movement and positioning. An archer just stands still and machine guns people with Rapid Shot.

Who plays a Fighter anyway ? The characters I see with Archery are Rogues and Rangers, especially the latter; also these tend to be multi-classed characters which rarely see the higher level free feats from Ranger, say. These characters do not have buckets of feats.

Seppo87

2016-05-21, 09:09 AM

Tho if archery was numerically as effective as melee it would make archery inherently better

Amphetryon

2016-05-21, 10:34 AM

Tho if archery was numerically as effective as melee it would make archery inherently better

Many would call 'better than melee' a fairly low baseline.

othaero

2016-05-21, 11:39 AM

An easy way to make it more viable is to allow power attack to affect archery or be able to add dex mod to damage

ayvango

2016-05-21, 11:42 AM

I believed that the problems are common knowledge but started a real discussion.

I discovered two problems by own:

1. We always fight in closed spaces in our adventures. Or we are ambushed in a wild. So there is no distance for archer to expose his skills.

2. There is no rules for sniping. That a large topic and interesting on its own, I would name the most confusion question from the topic: how far could you see? -1 Spot per 10ft is too restrictive when you could send arrows for 2000ft and more. There is a way to enhance you spot to lose -1 per 20ft, but still too much.

I read all other drawbacks posted here and found then not so fundamental. And there is an advantage that escaped attention: you could separately enchant arrows and bows, and it would give you maximum bonus +20 when melee fighters are caped with +10. So many of the enlisted problems could be solved with money to buy enhancements. Money intensity is doom for fighters anyway, compare them with casters like druid that require almost no items.

Problem 1,2 : Hard to get large damage bonuses and feat intensive
Not a problem: It is just like TWF. You pay high for extra opportunities. That may be too expensive, but it gives some advantages. You could always DCFS elves (good archers anyway) feats for it.

Problem 3: Sneak attack restricted.
Solution: the Sniper's Shot 1st level spell (SpC). Make it command-word for 1800 gp or continuous for 8000 gp.

Problem 4: Weak against DR
Solution: prepare special arrows.

Problem 5: Low damage output
Solution: prepare bane arrows

Problem 6: Archery is ruined by concealment
Solution: buy seeking arrows upgrade (+1 cost)

Problem 7: Wind wall invalidates archery, no save no check
Real problem: casters was always too powered when they guess correctly what spell to prepare

Problem 8: Composite bows does not match user's strength automatically
Solution: Use elvencraft (to justify as melee weapon) morphing (+1 enhancement) bow

Problem 9: Composite bows are expensive - on average, no class can afford even a +1 bow at level 1
Not a problem: no class can afford +1 melee weapon enchantment either. And first level fighter has too little specialization in bows to call him archer. He could with the same ease fill the brute role.

Problem 10: An archer just stands still and machine guns people with Rapid Shot while other employs clever tactics and moves along combat.
Solution 10: Anklets of Translocation or some other way to get extra movement. TWF builds employ them intensively as they are effective only with full attacks.

Problem 11: Tome of battle offers little to an archer
Not a problem: it is still book for melee magic. Archers definitely rare get attention, but there are still archer dedicated classes, like Cragtop Archer (RoS)

And I'd like to mention dragoncraft bow upgrade (100 gp) that increases range increment for 20 ft. Archers can fire from really long ranges, but seldom DM gives such opportunity.

Bronk

2016-05-21, 02:07 PM

Arrows really got shafted in this edition. I'm sure the designers were aiming for it to be viable, but they obviously missed their target. Yes, archery in 3.5 is sheer volley. If your party says they need an archer, I recommend you bow out. And if they try to give you a crossbow, you should bolt.

Nicely punned!

Aside from that, if I were to point out a particular problem with archery in 3.5, it would be that there is one best bow, and that is Hank's Energy Bow. It fires arrows that are really force effects (bypassing DR unless you're fighting a Force Dragon), acts as a composite longbow of arbitrary strength rating, power attacks, and isn't all that pricey. Since it's arrows are force effects, they're also often ruled as bypassing 'wind wall' spells. If you're an archer, this is the bow to have.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a

The downside is that if you don't have this bow, you'll always know you could be doing better.

There aren't a lot of other options for good bows. There's the 'Bow of the Wintermoon' relic from MIC and the 'Bone Bow' from Frostburn, both of which act as a composite longbow of arbitrary strength (Edit: and the Elven Greatbow (ELH)). There's also Elvencraft bows, which add melee capability to a bow, which is nice, but it's mostly good for adding extra enchantments to the bow (since melee enchantments are added separately), as well as being able to add extra wand chambers.

nedz

2016-05-21, 02:53 PM

... or be able to add dex mod to damage
Dead Eye Feat ( Dragon Compendium p95)

1. We always fight in closed spaces in our adventures. Or we are ambushed in a wild. So there is no distance for archer to expose his skills.
This is an encounter design issue - get a new DM, or upgrade the one you have.

I read all other drawbacks posted here and found then not so fundamental. And there is an advantage that escaped attention: you could separately enchant arrows and bows, and it would give you maximum bonus +20 when melee fighters are caped with +10. So many of the enlisted problems could be solved with money to buy enhancements. Money intensity is doom for fighters anyway, compare them with casters like druid that require almost no items.
Doesn't work - these things overlap.

Problem 3: Sneak attack restricted.
Solution: the Sniper's Shot 1st level spell (SpC). Make it command-word for 1800 gp or continuous for 8000 gp.

Expensive - not available at low level

Problem 4: Weak against DR
Solution: prepare special arrows.

Expensive

Problem 5: Low damage output
Solution: prepare bane arrows

Expensive - your approach to archery eats cash as well as feats

Problem 6: Archery is ruined by concealment
Solution: buy seeking arrows upgrade (+1 cost)

Expensive - ditto

Problem 8: Composite bows does not match user's strength automatically
Solution: Use elvencraft (to justify as melee weapon) morphing (+1 enhancement) bow

Expensive - also, is this homebrew ?

Problem 9: Composite bows are expensive - on average, no class can afford even a +1 bow at level 1
Not a problem: no class can afford +1 melee weapon enchantment either. And first level fighter has too little specialization in bows to call him archer. He could with the same ease fill the brute role.

More cash

Problem 10: An archer just stands still and machine guns people with Rapid Shot while other employs clever tactics and moves along combat.
Solution 10: Anklets of Translocation or some other way to get extra movement. TWF builds employ them intensively as they are effective only with full attacks.

You missed the point. In melee characters move around for tactical advantage, which is interesting. Having an Archer move does not matter unless skirmish, and even that's just more damage.

Amphetryon

2016-05-21, 03:03 PM

OP,
Point 9's rebuttal does not really follow. A Mighty Composite Shortbow (or Longbow) +1 is not a magic weapon. It's the way to account for STR adding a single point of Damage to arrows fired from said bow. Comparing it to a magic weapon is, at best, misunderstanding the terms used, and disingenuous at worst.

Eladrinblade

2016-05-21, 03:12 PM

ayvango

2016-05-21, 03:44 PM

In 3.5, magic arrows and magic bows don't stack (but they do overlap)
It is a first time I've encountered such ruling. So, if I have seeking arrows (+1 enchantment) and morphing bow (+1 enchantment), only one of this enchantments would work? Where can I read it?

A Mighty Composite Shortbow (or Longbow) +1 is not a magic weapon. It's the way to account for STR adding a single point of Damage to arrows fired from said bow. Comparing it to a magic weapon is, at best, misunderstanding the terms used, and disingenuous at worst.

Sorry, it was sincere misunderstanding. Well, if you are short of money - do not play weapon builds, just make party full of casters. And if other players wants you to be a weapon man, they should donate the fighter a bit.

Divide by Zero

2016-05-21, 04:26 PM

Problem 9: Composite bows are expensive - on average, no class can afford even a +1 bow at level 1
Not a problem: no class can afford +1 melee weapon enchantment either.

I wasn't referring to a magical enhancement bonus, but to the maximum Strength damage bonus on a composite bow. It was a rebuttal to the claim that archery can match melee damage at level 1, which included Strength damage on a composite bow.

MaxiDuRaritry

2016-05-21, 04:35 PM

The enhancement bonuses on bows and arrows don't stack; the non-enhancement effects do. For instance, a +1 flaming longbow firing a +1 frost arrow effectively fires a +1 flaming/frost arrow. So a +1 bow with +9 in enhancements can fire a +1 arrow with +9 in other enhancements for a total of a +1 and +18 in enhancements (so long as they're different enhancements, anyway). Combine with a greater magic weapon to make it +5 and a weapon crystal, and you can have an effectively epic weapon before becoming epic yourself, and without the stupid x10 price modifier.

Expensive - also, is this homebrew ?Nah, not homebrew. A morphing weapon can turn into any other weapon of the same size, so your regular longbow can be morphed into a composite longbow that matches your Strength rating without having to buy extra bows -- at the expense of paying for a weapon enhancement that effectively keeps getting more expensive the more pluses you add to it. It also allows you to turn it into an elvencraft longbow, or a spiked chain, or any other two-handed weapon you like.

Amphetryon

2016-05-21, 04:52 PM

Sorry, it was sincere misunderstanding. Well, if you are short of money - do not play weapon builds, just make party full of casters. And if other players wants you to be a weapon man, they should donate the fighter a bit.
GP for GP, a Greatsword-wielder, or other THF weapon-wielder, will do better, more reliable damage in more situations than an Archer will do. If you're short of money, melee works better than archery. If you're not short of money and are playing with a weapon as your main shtick instead of spells, you'll still get the most efficient use of that money by using a THF-style in the majority of cases.

Claims that Archery can be fixed by throwing money at it ignore the fact that other builds also use money, and don't need to use as much of it to equal or surpass the damage done via bow and arrow. The money saved can either push those other builds further ahead in damage output, or can allow the Characters in question to round out their defenses and options for non-combat situations.

ace rooster

2016-05-21, 05:00 PM

There are a few problems, and they are system problems so cannot be easily fixed. Firstly, mundane combat requires significant investment for very little flexibility. You can build effective archers, but they will not be effective at anything else. More importantly though, the melee guy will not be any good with a bow, which means that any encounter that kites you (as they should if you have no ranged response) will be no fun for him at all. It is nearly impossible to design encounters where archers shine without shutting down players completely, which is no fun.

Secondly, There are very few situations where "attack this target now" comes up and is possible. Consider a wizard casting a standard action spell. This takes about 3 seconds, which you would expect would be enough time for an epic archer to interrupt, but it is not unless they give up actions to ready a shot. An archer is no more effective at suppressing enemies than a guy with a stick 60 feet away.

Thirdly, wizards just do ranged better. They get scaling damage and inexplicable touch attacks on orbs of force.

Melcar

2016-05-21, 06:12 PM

The benefits of archery in D&D can be exceeded by a melee fighter with a spiked chain, especially with enlarge person added in. Sure, with splat support you can snipe effectively, but if we're talking core, the benefits of archery are pretty limited. In 3.5, magic arrows and magic bows don't stack (but they do overlap), so to benefit from that you need many dozens of thousands of gp or more. The 30ft limit is harsh, the -1 per 10ft spot check makes sense in dungeons but not so much outside (-1 per 50 or 100ft makes more sense), the MAD, the feat usage, ....it's tough.

I believed that the problems are common knowledge but started a real discussion.

2. There is no rules for sniping. That a large topic and interesting on its own, I would name the most confusion question from the topic: how far could you see? -1 Spot per 10ft is too restrictive when you could send arrows for 2000ft and more. There is a way to enhance you spot to lose -1 per 20ft, but still too much.

The -1 per 10 ft. is only against hiding, hidden or invisible creatures. You do not take spot checks against something plainl visible.

Claims that Archery can be fixed by throwing money at it ignore the fact that other builds also use money, and don't need to use as much of it to equal or surpass the damage done via bow and arrow. The money saved can either push those other builds further ahead in damage output, or can allow the Characters in question to round out their defenses and options for non-combat situations.

Can I just say, that I have a level 30 archer, who fires 10 arrows in a round, who does 1d8+30 damage. Thats without all the elemental arrows. Indeed that might not seem as much, but its still pretty good. One would have to opti prette good to get a melee dude to do the same damage in a round.

Zanos

2016-05-21, 06:57 PM

Amphetryon

2016-05-21, 06:58 PM

Sword-Geass

2016-05-21, 07:11 PM

Can I just say, that I have a level 30 archer, who fires 10 arrows in a round, who does 1d8+30 damage. Thats without all the elemental arrows. Indeed that might not seem as much, but its still pretty good. One would have to opti prette good to get a melee dude to do the same damage in a round.

I'm sorry, but that's easily doable with melee in a lot less levels. Your character is doing 345 damage per round if all the ten hits land, a Barbarian 16 can dish out 296 damage per round, with a non magical greatsword (only magic item I used was a +6 str item). Just using Power Attack, Imp. Bullrush, Shock Trooper and an hyper conservative reading of Leap Attack (the read being to add the number substracted for PA again, instead of tripling the damage like some people would). 4 feats and 36.050gp. If the Greatsword was a +1 Valorous Greatsword (8.350gp, easily afordable) the damage would be 596, and he is level 16, and low on the optimization scale (no haste, no size increase, no inherent bonuses).
Yesterday I was making some calculations of one ToB character I made, and he could deal 1,913 damage against an AC of 40, without Power Attack. Needless to say, I wouldn't use that move at the table, even if I could.

Last thing, this isn't saying that your character is bad or anything like that, as the power level varies between groups and what's important with char build is to have a character with the appropiete power level for the group, and not some monster capable of nullifying the rest of the party.

Also, for those of you who are intersted, Hank's Energy Bow is named Taumaril (Heartseeker). It's on the first part of the linked page, but almost everybody seems to ignore that (and saying that your weapon is named Taumaril is a lot more immersive than telling an NPC that you have "Hank's Energy Bow" :smallbiggrin:)

Bronk

2016-05-21, 07:30 PM

Also, for those of you who are intersted, Hank's Energy Bow is named Taumaril (Heartseeker). It's on the first part of the linked page, but almost everybody seems to ignore that (and saying that your weapon is named Taumaril is a lot more immersive than telling an NPC that you have "Hank's Energy Bow" :smallbiggrin:)

They're somewhat similar in feel, but not the same. Taulmaril is a regular +3 force keen elven longbow with some extra thematics thrown in for the arrows... it doesn't have the other qualities that Hank's energy bow has (power shot, strength bonus, free arrows, etc.).

Troacctid

2016-05-21, 07:39 PM

They're somewhat similar in feel, but not the same. Taulmaril is a regular +3 force keen elven longbow with some extra thematics thrown in for the arrows... it doesn't have the other qualities that Hank's energy bow has (power shot, strength bonus, free arrows, etc.).

Are we looking at different sources? Because the link I have bookmarked says that Taulmaril, the Heartseeker, is the name of Hank's energy bow, and gives the weapon's stats as follows:

Energy Bow

Price: 22,600 gp
Body Slot: — (held)
Caster Level: 6th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 18) evocation
Activation: See below
Weight: 3 lb.

Simply drawing your fingers in the air near this finely crafted bow causes it to be strung with an arrow of glimmering energy.

Hank’s energy bow acts as a +2 composite longbow that accommodates a user of any Strength. Although unstrung, it fires arrows of pure magical force that deal 2d6 points of damage. As they are force effects, the arrows do not suffer a miss chance when used against incorporeal creatures.The bow can be used to fire normal or magic arrows, but in such cases the bow does not confer its damage due to force.When drawn, the energy bow sheds light like a torch.

In addition, Hank can use the bow to make power shots.To do so, before making attack rolls, choose a number to subtract from your attack rolls up to Hank’s base attack and add this same number to the damage dealt by the bow with any attack that hits. The penalty on attack rolls and bonus on damage rolls last until Hank’s next turn.

Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, magic missile.
Cost to Create: 11,500 gp, 888 XP, 23 days.

Thurbane

2016-05-21, 07:59 PM

https://i.imgsafe.org/88cf1cc.jpg

Anlashok

2016-05-21, 08:11 PM

Are we looking at different sources? Because the link I have bookmarked says that Taulmaril, the Heartseeker, is the name of Hank's energy bow, and gives the weapon's stats as follows:
The mention of Taulmaril seems to be unrelated. The lead-in of the article is answering a trivia question that was asked earlier. It seems to be some sort of awkward segue into the stats of Hank's bow.

As said in the article, Taulmaril is the name of the weapon Cattie Brie (from the Drizzt novels) uses.

Bronk

2016-05-21, 08:50 PM

The mention of Taulmaril seems to be unrelated. The lead-in of the article is answering a trivia question that was asked earlier. It seems to be some sort of awkward segue into the stats of Hank's bow.

As said in the article, Taulmaril is the name of the weapon Cattie Brie (from the Drizzt novels) uses.

Yeah, it just says, "As noted, Taulmaril is styled in similar fashion to the magic bow possessed by D&D Cartoon's Hank the ranger."

The stats for Taulmaril itself are found here and there, wherever Drizz't is statted out.

Fizban

2016-05-22, 04:49 AM

3. A lot of games are run in such a way that archery's biggest advantage (long range) is close to irrelevant. In theory, being able to make attacks from a long way away should get you several rounds worth of unanswered attacks against melee-only foes. In practice, a lot of DM's put most of their fights in enclosed spaces (dungeons, inside, etc.), or don't give the PC's the chance to detect their foes until they're up close. Often, the beginning of a fight will be a description of some enemies you've encountered, and then the DM will set up the game board with the combatants already <100 feet apart. So much for several rounds worth of free shooting.

1. We always fight in closed spaces in our adventures. Or we are ambushed in a wild. So there is no distance for archer to expose his skills.

2. There is no rules for sniping. That a large topic and interesting on its own, I would name the most confusion question from the topic: how far could you see? -1 Spot per 10ft is too restrictive when you could send arrows for 2000ft and more. There is a way to enhance you spot to lose -1 per 20ft, but still too much.
Assuming you're outdoors, there is a solution for the first part: call your DM on their BS. Or more politely, point out that they should be referring to pages 88 and onward of the DMG for terrain rules, each part ending with Stealth and Detection detailing encounter distances. Sure, 100' is a perfectly possible range for some areas-about average for hills and forests, but if you're walking an open plain the absolute minimum roll is 240'.

Already mentioned is that spot checks only apply to people who are actively hiding, which further requires them to have concealment or cover. Those are both fairly common, but there's a significant difference in complaining about "we always start encounters at 100'," and "we're always being ambushed"

As for always being ambushed, you can always invoke the fact that you get a free spot check every round, and since walking is only one move action you can further be making a second active spot check every round. That's pretty heavy handed and will probably bite you in the butt later, but if you're being "ambushed" in places where you clearly had plenty of time to scope out your approach then this should help. Reliably ambushing requires being actually invisible/total covered/total concealed, or having a Hide bonus 20 higher than the spot of your prey.

Of course if you don't have anyone in the party with max ranks in spot then you should expect to be ambushed all the time. Hide checks are one of the only things you can't invalidate without close range+magic (at which point the ambush has already succeeded), and it's often the only way for the DM to ensure the foes will actually get a turn before dying. And it's kind of the standard tactic of every large land predator.

Melcar

2016-05-22, 06:22 AM

After some tweaks I got my archer to 12 arrorws per round 1d8+41 19-20 x3.

It would be quite possible with some heavy optimization to go somewhat hihger.

Âmesang

2016-05-22, 06:59 AM

The impression I got was that they were trying to reward risk taking—and archery is a fairly safe option.
I imagine that's probably what was going through the game designers' minds:

A melee character has to get up-close-and-personal to do his damage, running the greater risk of personal injury by being in an enemy's threatened area, but in return he gets to do "a lot" of damage, typically via great Strength and Power Attack.
A ranged character can safely pluck his bowstring from a fair distance away, staying well out of the threat range of most enemies, thus keeping himself out of harms way; in return he does comparatively less damage and has to keep track of ammunition. If he wants to do more damage he either has to shell out hundreds of gold pieces to get a composite bow to match his own great Strength… or just drop the bow and pick up a sword. Free extra damage and no ammunition to keep track of, but greater risk of personal injury since he has to fight closer.
The same risk/reward appears strictly with melee characters, too: Want more protection? Pick up a shield, but fight one-handed and do little damage. Want more damage? Drop the shield and either fight two-handed for greater damage (and less protection) or fight with two weapons (which has attack roll problems, but probably an attempt to balance it out because of sneak attack).

Of course "game theory" and "game reality" can lead to two radically different scenarios. :smallconfused: Granted my last attempt at an archer was based on a character I had created in SoulCalibur's create-a-soul mode, so she ended up as an archery-based ranger who also wielded a greatsword and utilized Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple (because you never know when you'll ever get your weapon sundered/disarmed/lost, plus it could prove to be a means of disabling enemy mages in a pinch).

Also, for those of you who are intersted, Hank's Energy Bow is named Taumaril (Heartseeker). It's on the first part of the linked page, but almost everybody seems to ignore that (and saying that your weapon is named Taumaril is a lot more immersive than telling an NPC that you have "Hank's Energy Bow" :smallbiggrin:)
Honestly how's Hank's energy bow any different than Hewerd's handy haversack or Boccob's blessed book? :smalltongue: Well, aside from the lack of alliteration.

Blackhawk748

2016-05-22, 11:38 PM

After some tweaks I got my archer to 12 arrows per round 1d8+41 19-20 x3.

It would be quite possible with some heavy optimization to go somewhat hihger.

Just so you know, with heavy optimization people are firing magically shrunk Redwood trees with explosive runes cast on it for their arrows. Or just using the Energy Bow and applying Sneak Attack shenanigans with a item of continuous snipers shot and hunters mercy. In other words doing lots and lots of damage.

Again, if thats the level your group plays at, then thats great for you guys, but High Op gets....well lets just go with ridiculous.

Melcar

2016-05-23, 02:31 AM

Just so you know, with heavy optimization people are firing magically shrunk Redwood trees with explosive runes cast on it for their arrows. Or just using the Energy Bow and applying Sneak Attack shenanigans with a item of continuous snipers shot and hunters mercy. In other words doing lots and lots of damage.

Again, if thats the level your group plays at, then thats great for you guys, but High Op gets....well lets just go with ridiculous.

Indeed, and having 10010 str, for that heavy pull bow! :smallbiggrin:

gooddragon1

2016-05-23, 02:53 AM

Said in other posts previously, but restating it anyways:

1> MAD
Multiple Ability Dependence. You need dex to hit, and STR to do damage. Also, the classes that tend to be good at archery (that aren't the cleric) tend to be squishier.

2> Environmental Factors
You need two feats to not take a penalty shooting into melee. You need another to shoot into a grapple. You have trouble under water and in wind. There are spells that can make your projectiles always miss. You take penalties at range increments. You take attacks of opportunity in melee when using your bow without magical assistance.

3> Damage
Tying into MAD, your damage output is lacking. Which is most notable at early levels when you cannot get through enemy damage reduction. Sneak attack is precision damage and has more requirements for ranged than melee. Tacking on elemental damage can help except when everything and it's maternal parental figure gets resistance to it.

Yahzi

2016-05-23, 04:11 AM

Tho if archery was numerically as effective as melee it would make archery inherently better
I agree; I was going to say the problem with archery is that it is too powerful. No-risk attacks combined with easy concentration of fire? Sign me up!

If you expect combats to end in 2-3 rounds, then I can see why people think archery is broken. But if archer could shut combats down that quickly, the D&D battlefield would be like a modern one: being seen = being dead.

Blackhawk748

2016-05-23, 08:38 AM

Indeed, and having 10010 str, for that heavy pull bow! :smallbiggrin:

Well i wasnt gonna recommend Festering Anger Shenanigans (as that will very easily get a book chucked at you) it does apply to archery as well.

I agree; I was going to say the problem with archery is that it is too powerful. No-risk attacks combined with easy concentration of fire? Sign me up!

If you expect combats to end in 2-3 rounds, then I can see why people think archery is broken. But if archer could shut combats down that quickly, the D&D battlefield would be like a modern one: being seen = being dead.

If we are talking Pathfinder, then yes, Archery is extremely good. In 3.5? Ya, no. In any event i never expect a combat to go beyond 5 rounds. Like ever. The only exception to this is when i make a Big Scary thing that is designed to last that long, and even then it doesnt always pull it off.

From my many years of playing DnD i have just come to accept that most combats will be done in less than 5 rounds, but take 30 min real time :smalltongue:

Eladrinblade

2016-05-23, 10:32 AM

Already mentioned is that spot check penalties only apply to people who are actively hiding,

Actually, under spot in the PHB it only says it applies to encounter distance. Which is something I never knew; I thought it was all spot checks. That's how listen is.

AnimeTheCat

2016-05-23, 12:25 PM

If we are talking Pathfinder, then yes, Archery is extremely good. In 3.5? Ya, no.

I think Yahzi was more referring to the fact that you can pop off a great number of attacks from the relative safety of distance. So, not only are you safer than a melee fighter since they have to close the distance to attack you. You get to hold on to your HP for longer than the melee combatant does. I think that's what he meant by "too good". Its no risk damage.

ayvango

2016-05-23, 04:44 PM

applying Sneak Attack shenanigans with a item of continuous snipers shot and hunters mercy. In other words doing lots and lots of damage.
Smart enough melee fighter would just buy item of continuous invisibility and therefore give you no chance to spot him. And even if archer has true-seeing, it works only for 120 ft range, which is normal charge range for a fighter (since getting 30 ft speed improvement is no deal). Well, the scenery should be plain enough for him to charge. And if it is a closed space than of course no charge, but no sniping either.

Fizban

2016-05-23, 07:54 PM

Actually, under spot in the PHB it only says it applies to encounter distance. Which is something I never knew; I thought it was all spot checks. That's how listen is.
Now thaaaat is interesting. Indeed, the PHB is formatted that way, and while srd.org has the table off to the side (breaking the formatting) it retains the same text. Unfortunately the Rules Compendium made using the penalty on all checks official: it has no references to encounter distance at all and presents the penalties as global like (most people?) assumed. I can't really disagree with it either, you absolutely lose detail at a distance after all.

To clarify, I seem to have ended up on a poor wording for that line. I meant to say more simply that "spot checks only apply to people that are hiding," and have edited the post to match.

killem2

2016-05-23, 09:04 PM

Wind wall invalidates archery, no save no check

Getting Confused invalidates melee so what's your point?

Divide by Zero

2016-05-23, 09:08 PM

Getting Confused invalidates melee so what's your point?

You usually get a save against confusion. Plus, it affects archers just as much so I don't see how that can be considered a point in their favor.

MesiDoomstalker

2016-05-23, 09:11 PM

Getting Confused invalidates melee so what's your point?

Confusion invalidates pretty much everyone, not just melee
the number of spells that can inflict confusion is small and always have a save
Similarly, spells that inflict Confusion are also fairly limited in what classes get it. Wind Wall appears on several skill lists, most notably the Sorc/Wiz and Druid, and Cleric via a few Domains.

There are plenty of things that just destroys Melee AND Archery. But Archery has a few things that are either extra debilitating or uniquely debilitating, like Wind Wall, Control Winds or even ambient weather conditions.

Blackhawk748

2016-05-24, 05:11 PM

Smart enough melee fighter would just buy item of continuous invisibility and therefore give you no chance to spot him. And even if archer has true-seeing, it works only for 120 ft range, which is normal charge range for a fighter (since getting 30 ft speed improvement is no deal). Well, the scenery should be plain enough for him to charge. And if it is a closed space than of course no charge, but no sniping either.

Several problems here:

1. A continuous 3rd level spell is much more expensive than 2 continuous 1st level spells.
2. Being always invisible can have serious problems
3. A DM is far less likely to approve of someone being always invisible than someone having Snipers Shot and Hunters Mercy always running.

Not saying people cant, or that permanently invisible foes arent a problem, its just that a permanently invisible foe is a problem for literally everybody not just archers.

A_S

2016-05-24, 07:18 PM

Don't think this has been answered yet:

It is a first time I've encountered such ruling. So, if I have seeking arrows (+1 enchantment) and morphing bow (+1 enchantment), only one of this enchantments would work? Where can I read it?
This is a specific case of the general rule that multiple bonuses of the same type don't stack. This rule is stated here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm) (and also in the PHB). In the case of ranged weapons, your magic bow and your magic arrows are both providing Enhancement bonuses to your attack and damage; you can't benefit from multiple Enhancement bonuses to the same thing, so you only use the larger of the two modifiers.

Assuming you're outdoors, there is a solution for the first part: call your DM on their BS. Or more politely, point out that they should be referring to pages 88 and onward of the DMG for terrain rules, each part ending with Stealth and Detection detailing encounter distances. Sure, 100' is a perfectly possible range for some areas-about average for hills and forests, but if you're walking an open plain the absolute minimum roll is 240'.
This gets you some traction on claims that you didn't see the enemies, but my experience is that in a lot of games, what happens isn't that you're unable to see enemies when they're far away, but that it doesn't become clear that they're enemies until they're up close. Like, footpads attack you on a city street! Or you're talking to a supposedly-helpful NPC, but it turns out they're a bad guy in disguise! Or, you've been tasked with protecting the princess at a ball, but some of the guests produce daggers from their finery and attack!

Combine those with constrained-spaces fights (e.g., there's a door before the room the final boss is in), and my experience is that only a small minority of fights let you make full use of your range as an archer.

ayvango

2016-05-25, 06:57 AM

Several problems here:

1. A continuous 3rd level spell is much more expensive than 2 continuous 1st level spells.
2. Being always invisible can have serious problems
3. A DM is far less likely to approve of someone being always invisible than someone having Snipers Shot and Hunters Mercy always running.

Not saying people cant, or that permanently invisible foes arent a problem, its just that a permanently invisible foe is a problem for literally everybody not just archers.
1. Invisibility is 2nd level spell. And it has duration in minutes, while sniper shots in rounds, so it would cost only 3 times more.

2. It is not a permanent superior invisibility, attacks reveals you, and it took some fade time to hide again.

3. It is already exist: Ring of Invisibility for 20k gp. Custom magic item price for invisibility would be 3 (caster level) * 2 (spell level) * 2 (minutes per level) * 2000 gp = 24k gp, so SRD variant is even cheaper

ayvango

2016-05-25, 07:09 AM

Don't think this has been answered yet:

This is a specific case of the general rule that multiple bonuses of the same type don't stack.

I never claimed they stack. Enchantment could not only give you enhancement bonus, but elemental damage (d6 per slot), weapon damage (5 per 2 slots) and so on. You could use enchantments to solve archery damage problem. I prefer invest nothing in weapon enhancement, 9k gp for 3rd level pearl of power is cheaper, and extra 3rd level slot could be used to cast greater magic weapon with the same effect.

Alternatively you could enchant weapon and arrows separately to make +10 enchantment cheaper. You could divide total +10 enchantment (200k gp) as +6 on weapon (6*6*2k = 72k gp) and +4 quiver(2*4*4*2k = 64gp) totally 136k gp. Quiver is off-slot, so it costs two times more than normal weapon enchantment.

A_S

2016-05-25, 08:01 PM

I never claimed they stack. Enchantment could not only give you enhancement bonus, but elemental damage (d6 per slot), weapon damage (5 per 2 slots) and so on. You could use enchantments to solve archery damage problem. I prefer invest nothing in weapon enhancement, 9k gp for 3rd level pearl of power is cheaper, and extra 3rd level slot could be used to cast greater magic weapon with the same effect.

Alternatively you could enchant weapon and arrows separately to make +10 enchantment cheaper. You could divide total +10 enchantment (200k gp) as +6 on weapon (6*6*2k = 72k gp) and +4 quiver(2*4*4*2k = 64gp) totally 136k gp. Quiver is off-slot, so it costs two times more than normal weapon enchantment.
Ah, sorry, I misunderstood you; yes, you can put different enchantments on your bow and your arrows and benefit from both. The trick of dividing your enchantments between bow and arrows does work, it just...honestly isn't that big a deal. A couple points worth of effective enchantments on your weapon just doesn't translate to all that much damage.

Keeping your weapon at +1 and then using Greater Magic Weapon on it is standard WBL optimization; I would assume that both melee fighters and archers generally do this.

-----

It sounds from your responses like you don't really buy the idea that archery has a damage problem. That's fine; disagreement is cool. I'd love to hear some evidence from your end, though! Got some stories of games where archers out-damaged melee fighters? Or builds for archers who do a lot of damage (preferably not at level 30, where D&D rules are so generally broken that there's no point in arguing about them)? I think that would make this a more productive thread than it's been so far.

ayvango

2016-06-14, 09:15 PM

It sounds from your responses like you don't really buy the idea that archery has a damage problem.
Yes, I believe that archery could do a reasonably high damage. It would still be lesser than a strength-centered melee build could do on warmaster charge with pounce ability or a dexterity-centered shadow pounce build could do with 3 full attacks per round teleporting as swift, move and standard action. But archery damage could be on par, giving that you have a couple of rounds for doing it without response.

Got some stories of games where archers out-damaged melee fighters?
I never seen archery builds, but I believe that is not a problem with damage output, but with applicability. To show his true strength archer should keep distance. If he is forced to use bow below the 30 ft distance, than mere thrown weapons would be more effective, and thrown weapons are perfectly combined with melee builds and feats by means of the Bloodstorm Blade PrC.

Dedicated archery is in need for distance and tight spaces in dungeons provide none. In a town archer have such distances but he is always in a crowd and would be eventually ambushed from close distances. In a wild archer have perfect distance and sight, but Spot skill checks take huge penalty from distance, so everyone wishing to get close to him could do so without much trouble. Archery could spot running enemy at about 500 ft. And with 60ft land speed and 240ft run that distance is crossed too quickly.

Or builds for archers who do a lot of damage
I have not heard of such builds, so decided to make one. That took much time to look through many sources and combine them to get a decent archer. I believe it make the thread more productive but a little bit nercomantive.

Build motivation
Damage output should be maximised, and archery is intensive for resources and feats. So the damage would take much of build economy and defence would suffer. The build would be of glacial hammer archetype. The main USP for a archer is bow attack distance, so it should be used to make the build recognisable. And that is how we can keep the character safe: just be too far for a foe to strike at you.

Spot penalty per distance could be used for the archer favour as well: as long as he is unnoticed he could devastate the foe with sneak attacks. Somewhere in a sky, mile away, practically indiscernible in clouds. It is a sniper conception of a modern war: you live as long, as you are not detected. So archer employ divination to find his foe, illusions to hide himself. Deadly hide-and-seek game. Archer could use illusions as decoy, hire or trick someone to bring his foes into the open where he could attack them properly. If he is detected, he should make sure that no one could teleport close to him, take the fastest flying mount available and switch his tactic to kiting. In closed spaces he could use greater invisibility or make someone to carry ring gates and attack though them from great distance.

Build ideas
- Use spells to enhance bow efficiency on long distance.
- Use polymorph to Arrow Demon (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=4) to double full attack
- Use fast flying steed either as spell or as transformed familiar
- Use split arrow enhancement and lighting mace feats to increase arrow attacks further

Exact build may depend on various conditions. How do other party members build their characters? Can you rely on custom magic items, spells from party buffer, or should do all upcasting yourself? I assumed moderate conditions on wealth and party assistance. So I choose to use wizard as base class and rely on own spellcasting. And to fit moderate wealth requirements I used weapons of legacy and pay with character's stats and HP instead of gold. If spending extra gold is not a problem, there is always option to replace dependency on spells with continuous or command-word activated items. So I present not a complete build, but a template that could be adjusted to different conditions.

Build details
1. Ability scores
Archer is polymorphed in combat, so physical stats have low priority except for Dexterity that is required to take two-weapon fighting feat. He need high Intelligence to cast spells. The only way to boost attack modifier is to use zen archery and boost wisdom (and spend all upgrade points in it). For 32-point buy (with grey-elf adjustment and pathetic flaw (-2 Con)) you would get:
- Strength: 8 (6)
- Dexterity: 14 (16)
- Constitution: 8 (4)
- Intelligence: 16 (18)
- Wisdom: 18
- Charisma: 8

2. Outsider
To polymorph in a demon archer need to be outsider. If he starts as elf, he could achieve outsider(native) type with the otherworldly feat. Feats are rare, so they should be used with full efficiency. So go to the 3rd level, become necropolitan (desecrated altar and Dread Necromancer or UA Necromancer gives +4 hp per level), go down to the 1st level and take otherworldly feat using DCFS (dark chaos feat substitution). In this way archer would starts as humanoid, then become undead, and after that he would become outsider with many handy undead traits but without undead type. Archer is immune both to mind-affecting effects from traits and effects that specifically targets undead type and works similar way because he is not more an undead. But an outsider without Con ability that resembles undead a little.

3. Classes
- 1 lvl Spellthief
Needed for stealing spells with personal targets like Divine Power. Cleric could not cast it on archer, but archer could steal and use it on himself. Also d6 sneak attack improves damage and allow to qualify for prestige classes.
- 1 lvl cleric
Cleric worship a concept of metal and war domain. That gives him 4 bonus feats at 1st level as domain powers. Archery is greedy for feats, so that is the reason to take 1lvl dip into a cleric
- 3 lvl wizard diviner
specialist wizard obtain extra slots, diviner stacks well with unseen seer and require to ban only single magic school which would be enchantment.
- 10 lvl unseen seer
progress both casting and sneak attack
- 5 lvl arcane trickster
more sneak attacks

4. Feats
Feats granted by a class could be converted to a useful one by mean of DCFS. So, you need to calculate total granted feats and redistribute it.
- 2 feats from flaws (noncombatant, and pathetic constitution)
- 4 feats from elf racial traits
- 4 feats from cleric (war & metal domain powers)
- 1 feat from wizard (scribble scroll)
- 1 feat from unseen seer (silent spell)
- 1 feat from otyugh hole
- 7 feat from level progression
total: 20 feats

Archer invests them in the following way:
- Otherworldly (become outsider)
- Master Spellthief (steal spells using his caster level)
- Practised Spellcaster (compensate 4 caster level loss in cleric and unseen seer)
- Improved Familiar
little wizard levels means little progression, but archer need assist from a familiar to break action economy
- Point Blank Shot (prerequisite)
- Precise Shot (prerequisite)
- Woodland archer (key feat: get extra 4 AB from each missed hit)
significant bonus when you do 24 attacks per round
- Far shot (extra range)
- Rapid shot (more attacks)
- Combat Reflexes (prerequisite)
- Two-Weapon Fighting (prerequisite)
Also by RAW negates -2 AB penalty from using two bows in Arrow Demon form
- Weapon Focus Mace (prerequisite)
- Lightning Mace (give extra 25% hits)
significant when you deal 24 attacks per full attack
- Martial Study: Cloak of Deception (prerequisite)
- Martial Stance: Assassin Stance (extra 2d6 sneak attack)
- Knowledge Devotion (up to 5 extra damage and AB)
- Travel Devotion (good use for 1st level turn attempts)
- Zen Archery (Arrow Demon form has fixed Dex, but you could improve Wis instead)
- Extend Spell metamagic (prerequisite)
- Persistent Spell metamagic (prerequisite)

The archer build relies on bunch of 1st and 2nd level spells. They should be constantly active, so the best option is to make them persistent and memorize in 7th and 8th level slots. If there is an incantatrix in your party then you could forget about metamagic feats and replace them with something useful.
- Telling Blow (each critical heat is sneak attack)
- Arcane Disciple Destiny (Choose Destiny spell could replace lucky arrow enchantment and is very useful in general)

I've summed all prerequisites for the listed feats
- Elf
- 2nd level arcane spell
- Spellcraft 4 ranks
- BAB +6
- Knowledge (any) 5 ranks
- Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks
- Dex 15

5. Spells
Note, that unseen seer has bonus access to 3 divination spells that he could choose from any source. So I choose following:
- hunters eye (extra 8d6 sneak attack)
- find the gap (1st attack each round is touch)
- wild instincts (always retain Dex bonus to AC)

To use bow efficiently archer has following spells enabled in combat:
- sniper shot (make sneak attack at full range)
- hawk eye (+50% range increment)
- guided shot (ignore range penalties to AB)
- hunters eye (extra 8d6 sneak attack)
- polymorph (Arrow Demon form)
- divine power (full BAB)

This spells could be cast by archer himself, or stolen from other characters. They should be persisted either by the archer or by party incantatrix. Or archer could buy them as magic items.

There are also other useful spells that could be prepared, persisted or implemented as magic items: golem/grave/vine strike, healer vision, hunter's mercy, wild instincts, sense weakness, chain of eyes, find the gap, vital strike, invisibility, see invisibility.

The way to get access to the spells depends on wealth level and party roster. You should maintain effective balance of different options. For example, you could cast golem strike as persistent spell in 7th level slot. Or you could cast as 1st level spell and make your incantatrix persist it. Or you could use command word item for 1800 gold, or continuous item for 8000 gold. But that require body slot, and many other useful spells would eat all slots, so off-slot item is preferable. It would cost 36000 gold to make off-slot item of continues golem/grave/vine strike.

6. Items
Items that are required for the build:
- Command activated custom item of hawk eye: 1800 gp
- Bracers of Archery: 5000 gp
- Monk's Belt: 13000 gp
Total: 19800 gp

If you had spare gold there are another useful items:
- Continuous custom item of Healer's Vision: 8000 gp
- Command activated custom item of Hunter's Mercy: 1800 gp
- Command activated custom item of Sense Weakness: 10800 gp
- Command activated custom item of Vital Strike: 27000 gp
- Command activated custom item of Keen Edge: 27000 gp
- Command activated custom item of Divine Power: 50400 gp
- Command activated custom item of Enlarge Person: 1800 gp
- Command activated custom item of Invisibility : 10800 gp

Command activated items are handy, because archer could let his improved familiar activate them. And they could be used interchangeably by all party members

Archer would benefit also from items that increase his caster level like
- Beads of Karma: 25800
- Command activated custom item of Summon Monster: 1800 gp
- Command activated custom item of Death Knell : 18000 gp

The last two should be used in joint: Summon Monster provide material for Death Knell

Archer needs very special weapons (two bows) to be effective. A bow starts as scropion kama, so now archer uses his unarmed strike damage as bow damage. Then kama take sizing (+5000 GP) and morphing (+1) upgrade. Now kama could be morphed to an elvencraft composite bow +N, and all strength bonus goes to damage. Aptitude upgrade (+1) allows treat the weapon as light mace for the Lightning Mace feat. And splitting (+3) upgrade double number of shots.

Archer should cast following spells on weapons to make them effective: Greater Magic Weapon (+5) on each bow, Keen Edges on each bow, Greater Mighty Wallop on his unarmed strike (now bow deals 8d6 damage instead of d10).

+10 weapons are expensive, and Archer need two of them, so he uses weapons of legacy instead. I created a suitable weapon for the build, but sizing property (+5000 gp) was not presented in the book, so I homerule it to cost 2 least level slots (using other 2 least level slot choices as examples).

Castor Kama
costs: -3 penalty to all skill checks, -20 HP, 53500 gp
- least 2 slots: morphing (+1)
- least 2 slots: sizing
- least 2 slots: crush the weak (explicitly stackable critical range improvement against lesser foes)
- lesser 3 slots: between the ribs (+4 attack and damage for sneak attacks)
- lesser 2 slots: student of the master (+5 monk for AC bonus and unarmed damage)
- lesser 1 slots: faerie fire strike (every shot on hit casts faerie fire on the target)
- greater 1 slots: splitting (+3)
- greater 1 slots: spell storing (+1), seeking(+1)
- greater 1 slots: aptitude (+1)
- greater 1 slots: distance (+1)

Pollux Kama
costs: -1 AB, -12 HP, -8th level spell slot, 52000 gp
- least 2 slots: morphing (+1)
- least 2 slots: sizing
- least 2 slots: crush the weak (explicitly stackable critical range improvement against lesser foes)
- lesser 3 slots: between the ribs (+4 attack and damage for sneak attacks)
- lesser 2 slots: student of the master (+5 monk for AC bonus and unarmed damage)
- lesser 1 slots: survive any extreme (at will immediate action gives resistance 30 to any energy for 1 minute)
- greater 1 slots: splitting (+3)
- greater 1 slots: exit wound (+2)
- greater 1 slots: aptitude (+1)
- greater 1 slots: distance (+1)

Archer also uses quiver that charms arrows (2x weapon enchantment cost for offslot bonus, 100k gp for +5 bonus) and duplicates them on demand (limited minor creation). Such quiver existed once in d&d universe, it was called Quiver of Anariel, but something mysterious happened to the quiver, and all references was removed from the WotC site. I believe there was something like oots-0032 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html). It costs 138205 gp and could reproduce up to +5 enchantment bonuses and alchemical silver, cold iron and adamantine material.

Lesser or greater energy damage weapon crystal would be useful too.

Weaponry cost:
- Scorpion Kama x2: 6302 gp * 2 = 12604 gp
- Castor upgrade: 53600 gp
- Pollux upgrade: 52000 gp
- Cloning quiver: 138205 gp
- Efficient quiver: 1800 gp
- Lesser energy damage weapon crystal x2: = 2000 gp x 2 = 4000 gp
total: 258210 gp

Arrows
Sadly Cloning Quiver could not clone unique arrows like death arrows. But it may be used for normal enchanted arrows in numerous ways. Archer could place energy damage on arrows, or could have bane, blessed, revealing, incorporeal bindings arrows for different occasions. If his gold is ahead of level, he could charm arrows with enchantments that he has not obtained yet in his bow. Ammunition has great advantage over melee weapons: you could enchant it with effects usable number of times per day. Each shot expends separate piece of ammunition, so each shot could use that ability. Banishing (+2), Binding(+1), Dispelling(+1 or +2), Knockback(+1), Paralyzing(+1) enchantments worth attention. Lucky(+1) enchantment is so good, that I recommend to add it to every piece of ammunition until you get access to the Choose Destiny spell that supersedes it. Lucky enchantment give you reroll for an attack roll. Once per day, but ammunition is used only once nevertheless.

7. Skills
Archer get total 192 skill points, 82 are fixed as class prerequisites, and 22 of them is wasted for cross-class skills. All other may be spent for knowledge skills to enhance damage and attack bonus with knowledge devotion, for spellcraft and concentration needed for casting, for hide and spot to play hide-and-seek games. And he have access to bunch other skills that may be used in some situations.

Damage output
The main part of the post: expected damage output at level 20th.

Let's assume the following combination.
Permanent spells enabled:
- Hawkeye spell
- Sniper Shot spell
- Guided Shot spell
- Hunter's Eye spell
- Greater Magic Weapon spell
- Greater Mighty Wallop spell
- Keen Edge spell
- Healers' Vision spell

Situative spells enabled:
- Enlarge Person spell
- Polymorph (Arrow Demon form)
- Divine Power spell
- Haste

Archer's own spell ability is sufficient to make all described buffs active, but prefer to buy them with magic items. There may be other buffs enabled, like brilliant energy weapon, cast by an ally, but that spells could be applied to melee build as well, so I would not count them for comparison.

Items:
- something that get +4 enhancement bonus to wisdom
- two lesser frost weapon crystals

Arrow enhancement:
- enhanced (+1)
- lucky (+1)
- corrosive (+1)
- flaming (+1)
- shock (+1)

The archer is far away and the target lost his bonus to Dex, because it could not spot the archer. The target has medium or smaller size, so bows has 16-20 threat range.

Maximum distance to the target could be = 130 (composite greatebow range increment) * 1.5 (hawkeye) * 2 (distance enchantment) * 1.5 (farsight feat) * 10 = 5850. That would give the target -585 spot penalty to locate the archer. He could use his familiar to concentrate on minor image command activated item, so he could hide behind some illusory obstacle. Penalty is so huge, that it is nearly impossible to overcome. And archer could even run and make full attack without risk of being discovered. He has also mind blank active, so no divination could observe him directly.

Attack Bonus:
- +20 BAB (Divine Power)
- +5 (weapon enhancement bonus)
- +4 (insight bonus from Knowledge Devotion)
- +1 (competence bonus from Bracers of Archery)
- +1 (weapon focus mace + aptitude weapon enchantment)
- +2 (Healer's Vision spell)
- -1 (Pollux penalty)
- -2 (Rapid Shot penalty)
- +4 (Between the ribs weapon property)
- +1 (Haste spell)
- +6 (base wisdom modifier)
- +2 (enhanced bonus to wisdom modifier)
total: 43

Damage:
- 8d6 weapon damage (as 15th level monk with mighty wallop)
- 5 (Arrow Demon strength modifier)
- 3 (Divine Power strength enhancement)
- 1 (Enlarge Person strength enhancement)
- 4 (insight bonus from Knowledge Devotion)
- 1 (Haste spell)
- d6 (cold from weapon crystal)
- d6 (fire from flaming arrow enchantment)
- d6 (acid from corrosive arrow enchantment)
- d6 (electricity from shock arrow enchantment)
- sneak attack
* 1d6 (spellthief)
* 4d6 (unseen seer)
* 2d6 (arcane trickster)
* 2d6 (Assassin stance)
* 8d6 (Hunter's Eye spell)
* 2 (healer vision)
* 4 (between the ribs weapon property)

Normal damage per hit: 20 + 29d6 (121.5 average)
Critical damage per hit: 46 + 45d6 (203.5 average)

A little difficulty is with calculating expected hits against given AC, because each miss improves AB against the target by +4. So I wrote simple program to do the calculations.

Assuming the target has 40 flat-footed AC, the archer would expect 22.95 normal hits and 6.76 critical hits per full attack. 1 attack for rapid shot, 1 attack for haste, 4 attacks for BAB, multiply by 2 for splitting weapon enchantment, multiply by 2 for Arrow Demon ability to fire two bows simultaneously. And some extra attacks from scored threat thanks to Lightning Maces feat. That would give 4164 average damage. Not so much comparing to certain melee builds, but large enough to clear archer from reputation of lowest damage capability in the game.

I calculated expected hits and criticals for other AC as well. I'd like to present it in graphical view:

http://s31.postimg.org/ccjamxisb/archeyr_plot.png

Red is for critical hits and green is for total hits.

In some special cases archer could deal even more damage. If he has pair of ring gates and could outmanoeuvre the target in such way, that it would be on the same line between the archer and both rings (other ring could hold your familiar), the archer could employ exiting wound weapon enchantment to do damage on the line. The line would be wrapped by ring gates and for example if distance between gate rings would be 50 ft, each shot would bounce through the target more than 100 times. Some misses are possible, but +4 AB for each miss make hitting real, especially for consecutive shots. Try it once, and master would bane ring gates for the rest of adventure.

There are some aspects that I'm not sure of. Is there any bow with 19-20 threat range? Is such bow exists, it would make the build much more effective. What is the faster flying creature? Phantom Steed has 240ft (flying or air walk), which is the fastest speed I could find. If there are other creatures that could outrun phantom steed I'd like to know.

A_S

2016-06-15, 09:21 PM

That's quite a build! And it certainly does do a lot of damage.

I will say: When people talk about archery having damage issues in 3.5, they generally don't mean "it is impossible to do a large amount of damage with a bow, no matter what." They mean "for a given level of effort, wealth investment, and optimization, bow damage tends to lag behind melee damage."

You appear to have pulled out all the stops when it comes to maxing out bow damage. Questionably RAW-legal means of becoming an Outsider so you can Polymorph into a creature from an obscure web enhancement? Check. Aptitude + Lightning Maces cheese? Check. Using Elf racial bonus feats to feed DCFS? Check. Iffy interpretation of Morphing Scorpion Kama to allow unarmed bow damage? Check.

Put it all together, and it doesn't read so much as an argument in favor of the strength of archery. It's more like, "if you cast as an 18th level Wizard, use a bunch of cheesy RAW to apply all the melee combat tricks to your ranged attacks, and dedicate everything in the build to doing huge amounts of damage with ranged attacks, then you can do huge amounts of damage with ranged attacks." The build as it stands is honestly pretty cool, as a TO damage-maximizing exercise, but I don't think most of us play at tables where it would fly with the DM.

-----

The problem with archery, to get back to the question posed in your OP, isn't that it's impossible to make an archer that does a lot of damage. As your build above shows, if you're willing to be a level 18 Wizard and use enough cheese, you can do a lot of damage with anything.

The problem with archery, compared to melee, is that it doesn't do well in the kinds of games a lot of us actually play. Melee combatants are easy to build well. You can make a Warblade 20, select your feats and maneuvers by throwing darts blindfolded, and you'll do relevant amounts of damage against level-appropriate foes for your entire career. Or in a higher-op game, you can do some multiclass-heavy melee monster with a Barbarian dip, Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack, and expect to one-shot anything your level for most of the game. Or you can make a Psychic Warrior, get really big, pick up a Dungeoncrasher dip, and play baseball with your enemies. Or you can stack Sneak Attack dice on a Telflammar Shadowlord multipouncer and flit around combat making a million full attacks. Or you can be a Totemist and stack natural attacks for days. Or...etc.

Archers don't have all these options. The way most of us play the game, archers have basically one way to increase their damage output: Make a lot of attacks (via Splitting, Rapid Shot, Polymorphing into an Arrow Demon, and so on). And, without access to the biggest sources of damage that most melee builds rely on (Power Attack multipliers, stacking size increases, Dungeoncrasher, Sneak Attack which doesn't work far away), that only gets you so far in the damage department, and it's vulnerable to things like enemies with high DR. Sure, if you're willing to cheese your way into applying a whole bunch of usually-melee-only damage bonuses to archery, you can get around it, but that's an unsatisfying answer for a lot of people, whose DM's are understandably leery about allowing that kind of thing.

This means that a lot of us have had experiences with games where one person makes a melee character, and somebody else makes an archer. They both make reasonable choices with regard to their character builds; they both invest similar amounts of wealth into their weaponry; they use classes from roughly the same tier. But then when combat rolls around, the melee character does like twice the damage the archer does. And what's worse, the advantages the archer is supposed to have, like shooting from far away, turn out not to be super relevant a lot of the time (because dungeons, or bad guys you didn't know were bad guys until they got up close, or bad encounter design by the DM, or whatever). And so the archer player says, "what the hell, why is my character so much worse than that guy with the sword?"

The answer can't be, "because you didn't think to use Aptitude and Lightning Kama to apply the benefits of the nominally melee-only Lightning Maces feat and Greater Mighty Wallop spell to your ranged attacks," because that's not the kind of game they're playing. And anyway, the melee guy didn't have to do anything cheesy to do a lot of damage, he just used Power Attack along with a couple feats and class features that are obviously intended to be used with Power Attack. The answer is just, "because you built an archer, and your buddy built a Barbarian."

This is what we mean when we say archery is weak in 3.5. It's not impossible to do a lot of damage with archery. This is a system where Festering Anger and the d2 Crusader exist; it's never impossible to do a lot of damage. But in actual games, where actual DM's are deciding what's allowed, we've noticed time and time again that archers tend to have issues keeping up with their similarly optimized melee counterparts.

Bronk

2016-06-16, 07:08 AM

...between the ribs (+4 attack and damage for sneak attacks)...

Where does this come from?

ayvango

2016-06-16, 07:31 AM

They mean "for a given level of effort, wealth investment, and optimization, bow damage tends to lag behind melee damage."
Well, you are welcome to suggest equally optimized (not too week and not a pun-pun) melee build for comparison. Note that festering anger with Cancer Mage may be used as well for the archer build.

You appear to have pulled out all the stops when it comes to maxing out bow damage. Questionably RAW-legal means of becoming an Outsider so you can Polymorph into a creature from an obscure web enhancement? Check. Aptitude + Lightning Maces cheese? Check. Using Elf racial bonus feats to feed DCFS? Check. Iffy interpretation of Morphing Scorpion Kama to allow unarmed bow damage? Check.

You forgot about Weapons of Legacy. I've searched through all the book to take the most cheesy upgrades.

if you cast as an 18th level Wizard

That is not a necessity. All your need is level 1-4 spells, that may be cast on you by party buffer and made permanent by an incantatrix. I take wizard progression to be self-sufficient. If you could relay casting on other party members, you may build archer with Telflammar Shadowlord and do the same damage triple times.

dedicate everything in the build to doing huge amounts of damage with ranged attacks

Being damage dealer is exactly what you have mentioned. And archery is suited well for damage dealing because it returns huge output for efforts spent.

Barbarian dip

I always was wondered, why all shocktrooper builds uses barbarian as source for pounce. You could be Dragonborn of Bahamut Lolth-touched Feral Incarnate Warforged (take in the reverse order) and avoid multiclassing this way. Feral gives you pounce for free.

Shock Trooper

Brilliant tactical feat, I could not argue it. But Woodland Archer is equally good.

Sneak Attack which doesn't work far away

Single level 1 spell and it works for any distance. You could use that spell even if you are not a mage and there is no casters in the party. Just buy an item. It would cost 8000gp.

Archers don't have all these options.
Why not? Archer with Arrow Mind spell could use Telflammar shadow pounce ability:

Any time he uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, his shadow jump ability), he may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation. The shadowlord must have line of sight on his intended target from his original location, and the spot to which he teleports must be a place from which he can launch a melee attack at the intended target with whatever weapon he has in hand at the beginning of his action.
Full attack does not necessary means melee full attack. Archer could teleport to some place from which he could launch melee attack with unarmed strike and use bow for making full attack. You could not hide far away from retaliation, but you could do triple the normal damage.

ayvango

2016-06-16, 07:33 AM

...between the ribs (+4 attack and damage for sneak attacks)...
Where does this come from?

Weapons of Legacy, page 98.

Bronk

2016-06-16, 07:49 AM

Thanks, I missed that!

Necroticplague

2016-06-16, 08:07 AM

Well, you are welcome to suggest equally optimized (not too week and not a pun-pun) melee build for comparison. Note that festering anger with Cancer Mage may be used as well for the archer build.
Halfling Cleric1/Crusader 11.
Feat: Imbued healing (Luck), Improved Unarmed Strike.
Stance: Aura of Chaos.
Hit yourself with a Cure Light wounds, then within the next minute, hit anyone with an unarmed strike, do an infinite/arbitrarily large amount of damage. No giant stack of buffs or custom magic items needed.

I always was wondered, why all shocktrooper builds uses barbarian as source for pounce. You could be Dragonborn of Bahamut Lolth-touched Feral Incarnate Warforged (take in the reverse order) and avoid multiclassing this way. Feral gives you pounce for free.
1.Lolth Touched makes you evil, and is thus incompatible with Dragonborn.
2. Feral pounce only applies during the first round of combat.
3. The special attacks of a feral creature don't scale with HD, like it's special qualities do. They scale with "monster Hit Dice", which, is the term the book uses to mean RHD. So to get pounce, you'd need to suck up 4 RHD to your build.

Single level 1 spell and it works for any distance. You could use that spell even if you are not a mage and there is no casters in the party. Just buy an item. It would cost 8000gp. Assuming such a custom item exists.

Eldariel

2016-06-16, 08:33 AM

It's possible to make a powerful-throughout non-caster Archer in 3.5 but it requires ridiculous amounts of source diving, and it's much easier with 3.0 material on the table (notably, 3.0 material supports the "sniper" archetype where the plan is one good shot, not a volley). The principal problems have been listed here but to recap, archers need a lot of feats, they don't scale well in damage naturally, there are lots of scenarios where using bows is difficult (close quarters/dungeon terrain, unfavorable weather conditions, enemies employing magic like Windwall or Control Weather, etc.), there are few options that actually improve archery, etc.

My own favorite Archer is:
Fire Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#fireElves)
Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10

Dex > Str > Int > Con > Wis > Cha

One might think that's a late bloomer, but it does actually scale reasonably well with levels and it's pretty packed with good stuff early on. One of the selling points I like is that it can also reasonably function in melee with very little investment, thanks to stances and maneuvers. Principal idea is taking volley archery to the extreme:

1. Ranger gets Rapid Shot, Elf Ranger 1 for 4*(8+Int) skills on level 1, Favored Enemy: Arcanists, access to Ranger Wands (they include some good archery stuff [e.g. Arrowmind, Guided Shot, Hunter's Eye] and the usual Wand of Cure Light Wounds and Lesser Restoration any self-sufficient adventurer needs)
2. Barbarian gets Whirling Frenzy (Extra Rage should preferably be taken once) and Pounce (for the melee plan)
3. Fighter is the Hit'n'Run Fighter [Drow of the Underdark] for essentially Dex as Sneak Attack damage, and Targeteer Fighter [Dragon 310] for Greatbow proficiency & Arrow Swarm (-5 on all attacks, +2 ranged attacks each turn)

At level 4 you're thus looking at a maximum of 4 bonus attacks (+1 Rapid Shot, +1 Whirling Frenzy, +2 Arrow Swarm) but at -9 total on your attacks. Which means you can't hit a barndoor until you add Woodland Archer [Races of the Wild]. I also like to add Knowledge Devotion to both, keep Knowledge-skills up and to utilise Eternal Blade's Eternal Knowledge, but that's not strictly necessary. It does, however, make stacking damage all that much easier. It's also viable to run Ranged Weapon Mastery [PHBII] though that's only +2/+2.

Now then, the higher levels add Warblade's maneuvers (you'll pick up Leading the Attack-stance for melee), most relevantly Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose (through Tiger Claw-maneuver granting items) and eventually Time Stands Still. Thus you have a steadily growing number of attacks throughout your career. Eternal Blade can get spontaneous Diamond Mind maneuvers so you can refresh Time Stands Still, or you can pick any of the melee or utility strikes (Moment of Prescience is situationally awesome for instance) you might need when the situation calls for it. You also have the utility of White Raven Tactics (extra turns for teammates, potentially even for yourself depending on the ruling) and Iron Heart Surge (end anything), as well as the ability to ignore Hardness and DR (Eternal Blade, also Stone Dragon strikes), and some counters (Wall of Blades is a nice one; Shadow Hand Martial Script for One with Shadow is something I like keeping around as well).

Then you add skills. Spot, Hide, Concentration, optionally Move Silently and Knowledges plus whatever you wanna do with the extras - I recommend packing a bunch of skilltricks and enough Tumble to get around at least. You can retrain 4 skill points per level from your level 1 surplus allowing for a rather streamlined build. Darkstalker plus Hide setup. You lack natural Hide in Plain Sight unless you run Dark creature so I prefer using Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis to that end; though Polymorph Any Object with the right support feats could also be used. I like trying for highish sensory skills to get the options to see through invisibility and illusions naturally.

From here on, optimize as desired. Nemesis: Arcanists is pretty powerful, allows you to locate a lot of potential targets with very few counters. For a higher optimization game I'd definitely add Troll-Blooded [Dragon #219] and either Gheden (unsightly though that may be) or some way to keep Favor of the Martyr up, and Dark Chaos Shuffle for the racial proficiencies if that's game. Being immune to most damage is nice and you can achieve a degree of fire and acid immunity with e.g. Mantle of the Fiery Spirit [Sandstorm] and Ritual of Elemental Earth [Savage Species]. Then you're just left to cover your bases with magic items. For cheap good stuff, I like using a Weapon of Legacy (Gauntlet or some such - it's for utility, not fighting) to acquire among others Contingency, Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience for initiate, ability to locate various types of creatures without sight, ability to act while flat-footed (Cunning ability) and all that for a very affordable price (on Eternal Blade 10 you finally can take a turn as an immediate action so Cunning pays off big).

You absolutely must get Feathered Wings graft [Fiend Folio] - non-magical flight of the highest order. Fiendish Graft but thanks to Warblade levels and access to Moment of Perfect Mind, you will actually never fail the save so there are very few downsides. Plus a great synergy with Haste; you move at 60' on ground so 120' on air, plus 30' more on air for a total of 150' flight speed (or at least that's one reasonable ruling). And the Wing Buffet is a free bonus if you feel like investing in Bluff (you probably won't have the skill points though, but it costs nothing).

I like packing an Elvencraft Greatbow (or Longbow if the DM doesn't allow for Greatbow; an annoying damage difference with Strongarm Bracers though) and have the Quarterstaff enhanced as +1 Valorous. Phasing Arrows [Dragon 330] is a necessary part of any self-respecting archer's arsenal and you should get a Force Splitting bow (Energy Bow (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/animefunkmaster/media/EnergyBow.jpg.html) allows for Power Shot too and adjusts for strength; an affordable investment but might be hard to get the more important boons on it depending on DM rulings). Force effects can arguably ignore things that normally screw archers up such the weather. You should pack an array of different arrows though as those are cheap to acquire. A few different bane arrows, some different materials, etc. - you never know when you need to break objects at a range or your actions are taken and you need to kill something.

The +1 Valorous Quarterstaff portion allows you to combine it with Power Attack + Whirling Frenzy + Leading the Attack Stance + Bounding Assault feat (remember, you have Pounce from Barbarian) plus Haste-bonuses (you should absolutely have Boots of Speed) for a total of at least 6 attacks at doubled damage, charge bonuses, +17 damage, Knowledge Devotion & co., very decent strength, full double move (that's 300' of Average Flight with Haste for those keeping a count). If that's not enough, you can follow that up with Time Stands Still melee full attack, or Diamond Nightmare Blade (depending on which you think is more likely to work; one accurate strike with potentially Gauntlets of True Strike, or a flurry of blows). It's not amazing compared to any real charger but it's enough to take out most targets you might need melee attacks for - e.g. Ragewalker [MM3] is immune to projectile and thrown weapons.

You can also add Mage Slayer and fit in Thicket of Blades from the Eternal Blade levels for some basic area control, particularly if you also wield a reach weapon of some sort. I like having Hearing the Air as one of my stances though which forces some picks. Hunter's Sense (always useful), Leading the Attack and Thicket of Blades/Hearing the Air is a reasonable setup by any measurement though. Sadly the only way to access 8th level stances with this build is by using items though, as X 4/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 5 is only Initiator Level 13 and you'd need 15 for those 8th level stances (Eternal Blade stance acquisition is overall rather poor, which is a pity since they get all the awesome schools). I generally get Stance of Alacrity with an item and keep that on by default though; some counters are rather powerful and immediate actions are a sparse resource. Master of the Nine does it better with the addition of Counterstance but this isn't horrible either.

The overall output at 20 is still enough to non-magically kill a Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires) so overall, I consider it more than sufficient for most intents and purposes. The principal idea of the build is to play up the various strengths of a non-caster and to stack on options for solving various problems with a good balance of defense (very high saves with counters, damage immunity, immediate action turns, quite hard to detect and company) and offense (able to take down just about anything that can be harmed at melee or range, access to an array of save-or-X Strikes through Eternal Blade, quick movement, able to negate e.g. Antimagic Fields with Ironheart Surge, etc.) at minimal investment. It can also be tuned for various optimization levels.

nedz

2016-06-16, 02:47 PM

Halfling Cleric1/Crusader 6.
Feat: Imbued healing (Luck), Improved Unarmed Strike.
Stance: Aura of Chaos.
Hit yourself with a Cure Light wounds, then within the next minute, hit anyone with an unarmed strike, do an infinite/arbitrarily large amount of damage. No giant stack of buffs or custom magic items needed.

You need to have IL >= 11 for Aura of Chaos.

Necroticplague

2016-06-16, 02:52 PM

You need to have IL >= 11 for Aura of Chaos.

Thanks for the correction. Still chews up less build resources.

ayvango

2016-06-17, 01:40 PM

Halfling Cleric1/Crusader 11.
Feat: Imbued healing (Luck), Improved Unarmed Strike.
Stance: Aura of Chaos.
Hit yourself with a Cure Light wounds, then within the next minute, hit anyone with an unarmed strike, do an infinite/arbitrarily large amount of damage. No giant stack of buffs or custom magic items needed.

Infinite loops are the next level of optimization breaking the game. With infinite loops I could make archer without diping in spellcasting. Archer could obtain all spell enhancements as magic items from infinite wish loop.

1.Lolth Touched makes you evil, and is thus incompatible with Dragonborn.

Dragonborn is an acquired template. You could wait until level two, shift alignment or atone, and then become qualified for the Dragonborn template.

Snowbluff

2016-06-17, 03:58 PM

It's also worth noting that the opposite is true in Pathfinder. Deadly Aim (ranged Power Attack), more feats for everyone, regular Power Attack being worse, many classes getting a ranged-specific archetype, and less highly-accessible melee pounce options means archery is a very reliable, high-damage option.

As the only remaining expert on archery in d20, I can say that Deadly is a crutch, and one that the best archer (Samsaran Clerics) don't need.

As I see it, the main issue is damage. This is easily fixed, but you'll want to be a real ******* about it... (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OFRVD2nF77YGTU_HWMeS9vgMWDMz694h9X9nmd9w94w/edit?usp=sharing)