"Will save to Disbelieve."... Why?

[Nibbens]

Okay, so maybe my confusion comes from a lack of understanding about Illusion spells, or maybe there's something I'm missing...
I was reading Illusory Wall (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/illusoryWall.html). It's a bit like your standard illusion, except for this bit:


Touch or a probing search reveals the true nature of the surface, though such measures do not cause the illusion to disappear. Although the caster can see through his illusory wall, other creatures cannot, even if they succeed at their will save (but they do learn that it is not real).

So, let me get this straight:
1) Seeing the illusion doesn't trigger the will save, but touching it does.
2) Touching the wall allows you to pass through it and triggers the save.
2) Successful saves do... what, exactly?

I mean. Normally a save does something beneficial or at least partially beneficial. This save does what, exactly? Gives you the knowledge the wall isn't real, when you already knew that because your hand went through the darn thing, but you still can't see through it.

Let's look at this another way - I touch the wall and fail my save. I still can't see through it, but I was able to pass through it thus teaching me the wall is fake... which is the same effect as the successful save.

What am I missing here, or misunderstanding?

[Dellis]

Okay, so maybe my confusion comes from a lack of understanding about Illusion spells, or maybe there's something I'm missing...
I was reading Illusory Wall (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/illusoryWall.html). It's a bit like your standard illusion, except for this bit:



So, let me get this straight:
1) Seeing the illusion doesn't trigger the will save, but touching it does.
2) Touching the wall allows you to pass through it and triggers the save.
2) Successful saves do... what, exactly?

I mean. Normally a save does something beneficial or at least partially beneficial. This save does what, exactly? Gives you the knowledge the wall isn't real, when you already knew that because your hand went through the darn thing.

Let's look at this another way - I touch the wall and fail my save. I still can't see through it, but I was able to pass through it thus teaching me the wall is fake... which is the same effect as the successful save.

What am I missing here, or misunderstanding?

Do note I'm not that savvy about illusion rules, I'm just answering from a "this makes sense" viewpoint. I might be, ruleswise, as wrong as Humphrey Ruttus was, when he thought time had come to try to sell cauldrons made of cheese.



The difference may be that creatures failing their will save still see the wall, which means they can't see behind it. Creatures that make their will save know it's an illusion, thus the wall - for them - disappears (or becomes translucent, betraying its obvious nature of illusion?), allowing for those creatures to see what's behind it.

It DOES make a great difference. I can pass through a wall while i haven't made my save, but I won't know I'm just gonna plummet to my death in the standard issue pool-o'-acid for evil dungeons (15.99$ only). If I do make my save, I'll see there's just a pool of acid behind that illusionary wall - and thus change my course to not include acid-y death.

[Nibbens]

Do note I'm not that savvy about illusion rules, I'm just answering from a "this makes sense" viewpoint. I might be, ruleswise, as wrong as Humphrey Ruttus was, when he thought time had come to try to sell cauldrons made of cheese.



The difference may be that creatures failing their will save still see the wall, which means they can't see behind it. Creatures that make their will save know it's an illusion, thus the wall - for them - disappears (or becomes translucent, betraying its obvious nature of illusion?), allowing for those creatures to see what's behind it.

It DOES make a great difference. I can pass through a wall while i haven't made my save, but I won't know I'm just gonna plummet to my death in the standard issue pool-o'-acid for evil dungeons (15.99$ only). If I do make my save, I'll see there's just a pool of acid behind that illusionary wall - and thus change my course to not include acid-y death.


Then what about this bit then: Although the caster can see through his illusory wall, other creatures cannot, even if they succeed at their will save (but they do learn that it is not real).

Saving does not effect being able to see through it. Just as not saving does. Touching the wall allows your hand to pass through it, wether or not you believe or disbelieve the illusion.

Thats my problem - the save seems to effectively do nothing.

[NichG]

Probably just copy-paste boilerplate associated with Illusion (Figment) spells. Maybe someone felt it would be weird to have a spell of that type that didn't offer a save, but couldn't think of how to write in a meaningful save that didn't immediately make the spell either pointless (save on seeing it) or weird (can't pass through without a save).

[Aldrakan]

It doesn't say that you only get the will save if you touch the wall. The sentences are adjacent, but they're not connected. If you make the save you know the wall isn't real without having to go up and touch it.

[Nibbens]

It doesn't say that you only get the will save if you touch the wall. The sentences are adjacent, but they're not connected. If you make the save you know the wall isn't real without having to go up and touch it.

So what does this mean then:


Saving Throw Will disbelief (if interacted with);

[Yanisa]

Well if the save wasn't there, you would never realize the wall was fake. Even when your hand goes trough it you think the wall is real, but for some (unexplained, possible magical) reason incorporeal. I mean ghost are real and you can't touch those with your bare hands...

Yes, that still sounds stupid...

Fun fact: Because of the disbelieve will save, you can warn others and they get a +4 on their will save...



It seems to be a legacy issue. 3.5 has different wording (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/illusoryWall.htm), but the RAI seems to be the same as pathfinder. In 3.5 you could make the argument the wall would appeared outlined, like the general Illusion rules. Even though the text hints that should not be the case. All due that silly will save. Basically pathfinder cleaned the wording as to the intend of 3.5, which nullifies the discussion. Yet they kept the will save.

[Jack_Simth]

Okay, so maybe my confusion comes from a lack of understanding about Illusion spells, or maybe there's something I'm missing...
I was reading Illusory Wall (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/illusoryWall.html). It's a bit like your standard illusion, except for this bit:

Yep, illusions are tricky.


So, let me get this straight:
1) Seeing the illusion doesn't trigger the will save, but touching it does.
Correct, but there's a gotcha: Seeing it and touching it are not the only possible interactions! It's an Illusion(Figment), so you also need to check the subschool descriptor:

Illusion

Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.

Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the figment produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it).

Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

A figment's AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier. and the bit about will disbelief
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus. (emphasis added)

The will disbelief is an interesting one.

Under normal circumstances, you don't actually get a saving throw just by looking at most illusions with the will disbelief tag. You need to "study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion" - pushing your hand through it would be proof, sure, but if it looks like a wall of lava or something, you're unlikely to want to do that. However, if you stop and examine it in detail, looking for perhaps a way you could peek through to the other side so you can Dimension Door past with your Cape of the Monteback, on the other hand, then you're studying it carefully.

Likewise, if I use Illusory wall to put a mural on a real wall, the illusion itself is quite thin; your hand will penetrate the illusion itself, but you'll still pretty much feel what you expect on the other side: A wall. So you get a save, but it's not proof (up until you damage the wall behind the illusion or something).


2) Touching the wall allows you to pass through it and triggers the save.

Well, if you actually go through it meaningfully, then you're in the proof clause of will disbelief, and don't need the save.


2) Successful saves do... what, exactly?

Give you official recognition that the wall (or other illusion) is fake. Which, you know, is useful when a guy ran out of a room, turned two corners, and put up an illusion to cover the second corner so it looks like he vanished through a dead end - you don't immediately know which way he went if you didn't see him put up the illusion.

But yes: The fact that it doesn't go away is very, very useful under the right circumstances.

[Jay R]

If you touch it, you know that the three inch circle directly under your hand isn't real. If you make your Will save, you know how much of the wall isn't real. Is this an small illusion hiding a wall safe, or is it big enough to hide fifty ogres?

By the way, an illusory wall covering an actual stone wall is a great way for your invisible character to keep the posse chasing you busy while you walk away back the way you came.

[Jack_Simth]

If you touch it, you know that the three inch circle directly under your hand isn't real. If you make your Will save, you know how much of the wall isn't real. Is this an small illusion hiding a wall safe, or is it big enough to hide fifty ogres?

By the way, an illusory wall covering an actual stone wall is a great way for your invisible character to keep the posse chasing you busy while you walk away back the way you came.

Yes, but that takes more time - and thus, more resources - to set up: the invisibility, and the illusion (presumably there's already a wall there). While it's handy, it means you're going to have to be higher level or have more of a lead - the first means that as soon as an illusion happens, they're liable to pop True Seeing if they're a real threat; the second means they were less of a threat to begin with and you have a rather lot of options.

[BWR]

If you just touch if you don't actually notice your hand going through on a failed save. The wall feels solid to you and you see your hand stopping on the wall. The spell convinces you there really is a wall and overrides your other senses and whatever logic that might have made you realize something was wrong. If you happen to lean yourself or something against the 'wall' you will obviously notice the object or yourself falling through and save or no realize that it is an illusion, but minor touches or just brushing against it, you will be convinced that the wall is real and brush off any niggling feelings that something is off.

[Florian]

@Nibbens:

Ultimate Intrigue actually has a very good passage handling that topic.

Long story short, interaction with illusions is based on having spent concrete actions on the actual interaction, else you don´t trigger the Disbelieve check. "I touch the wall, my hand passed thru, I notice the Illusion" is not what is happening and how the rules should be used.

[Andreaz]

@Nibbens:

Ultimate Intrigue actually has a very good passage handling that topic.

Long story short, interaction with illusions is based on having spent concrete actions on the actual interaction, else you don´t trigger the Disbelieve check. "I touch the wall, my hand passed thru, I notice the Illusion" is not what is happening and how the rules should be used.

That's how the FAQ handled it, I think.
For the wall, thus, merely touching it is not enough to save. You have to actually spend actions or being part of obnoxious acts with that wall, like spend a standard action studying it up close or being flung through it. If someone yells that the wall is fake you might not get to save anyway (i'd probably allow it), but if you trust the source you might as well treat it like so.

[MilleniaAntares]

I believe that is what is called a "poorly worded spell". I do agree with you that a will save isn't necessary for this spell.

Here is how I would interpret it, without necessarily referring to any game materials beyond that of the description.

Let's say you have a wall with an alcove for a door.

Like so:



-------| |--------------
|----|


And then you set up an Illusory Wall to make it look like one solid wall:


----------------------------
|----|

If this were, say, outside, and there were kids walking along normally, they wouldn't get a save to disbelieve, because they walk just past.

But let's say one of the kids grabs a stick and runs it along the wall. When they get to the illusory wall, the stick, held as it is, shouldn't make a noise... and when they walk to the end of the alcove it should hit along the perpendicular wall. In that situation, the person would get a will save. If they succeed, they notice that the stick stopped making noise, then was briefly stopped by hitting the alcove wall. If they failed, then the illusion gives them the impression that the stick did make noise as proper for going along the wall.

If someone is stepping along the wall, searching for the super secret door... they would likely have to roll a will save as they run their hand along the illusion. If they succeed, they notice their hand passing through. If they fail, their hand instinctively stops at the illusion and perceives the texture of the wall as appropriate.

Let's say an injured person is walking along the wall, leaning against it for support. When they reach the illusion, they will likely fall through because they're putting their weight on the wall. In this case, the will save is only necessary to realize it is an illusion; I do not know what other plausible explanation that would be. "Oh no, I fell through a portal!"?

[Florian]

You´re overcomplicating your answer.

The school and subtype tell you anything you need to know. The spells descriptive text points out a difference between handling this specific spell compared to the baseline rules for figments.

The wall illusion is purely visual. Under normal conditions, disbelieving it would reduce the effect to a faint outline. In this case, this doesn´t happen and the visual effect of the figment will stay intact until the spell runs out.

[Fizban]

The general rule for (3.5) figments: if you make your save, you can see through the illusion leaving only a translucent outline, clearly identifying that it's an illusion while still knowing exactly where it is. If you fail your save you cannot see through the illusion and it looks like it always did.

And that's it. Figments don't control your mind, failing the save has nothing to do with weather or not you think the illusion is real, or what actions you take. That's all decided by you based on the information you have. Nor does an illusion supply sense data not specified in the description, nor does your character's brain make any up on it's own. If you make the save then you can see through the illusion and most likely realize it's an illusion. If you fail the save then you can still guess that it's an illusion because duh your hand just went through it, except there are any number of other magical effects that could let your hand enter a wall. If it looks like wood but feels like stone it could be an illusory wall, or a crude wall of force, or a hardening spell that changes the texture, or a Mimic, or. . .

On to the OP's question: it doesn't matter that making the save would tell you the wall is fake/failing the save doesn't, you can reach the same conclusion based on other evidence. Such as your hand going through it. But see above.

1) Seeing the illusion doesn't trigger the will save, but touching it does.
2) Touching the wall allows you to pass through it and triggers the save.
2) Successful saves do... what, exactly?
1) Jack Smith has already mentioned the "study carefully" clause. We have an action cost for Search checks of 1 full round action per 5' cube, but you must be within 10'-wait you can do that from 10' away? People should stop writing search checks that assume you're opening containers. Anyway, there's also the move action to roll an active Spot or Listen check if you think a full round action is too unfair and want a different precedent.

2) Nothing "allows" you to pass through the wall, the only thing stopping you is how silly or dead you might feel if it turns out you're wrong. Touching the wall is an interaction and triggers the save.

3) If the save succeeds, the DM tells you the wall is not real and what happens as a result of your action. If the save fails, the DM tells you what happens as a result of your action. What happens is highly dependent on how clever the illusionist is.

It should be obvious that players don't roll illusion saves, hence all instances of "you" rolling a save are actually the DM, who's rolling all kinds of dice for mysterious reasons all the time so it's not suspicious.

[Bruenin]

These rules of games articles are really great for clarifying things:
Part 1 : http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a
Part 2 : http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060214a
Part 3 : http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a
Part 4 : http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a

For semi-summary and personal thoughts and interpretations. Sticking your hand through a wall falls under automatic disbelief. It's as if you auto passed your will save. Otherwise the person only gets a will save if they're say searching for traps or using a move action to try and spot something they previously missed. It's kind of up in the air but I treat interactions as something that takes an action unless it's otherwise stated. As a free action you can break an illusion with a DC80 spot, so I extrapolated that then taking a move action to try and see something you failed to notice before would be enough to warrant a will save. In other words the spell doesn't say it but you can trigger the need for will saves in instances that are cause for automatic disbelief.

Side note, a probing search is only an automatic disbelief if whatever you're probing with goes through the illusion. So a probing search wouldn't be an automatic disbelief for glamer spells because glamer spells make something look like something else so there's still a physical surface that stops the object. Also shadow spells may not be automatically disbelieved as they're partially real so the object might not go through them.