My group is going spellcaster classes. They also want to be team Evil. What do I do?

[Linken]

As title.

My group of three is going Wizard, Witch and Cleric. They're either Chaotic Neutral or Evil. They straight up said 'We want to play team evil in this campaign if that's okay'.

...Not sure how to follow up from that and give them what they want. I'm used to running normal, 'save the world and stuff' campaigns. What do I do?

[Conradine]

An evil character, even a Chaotic Evil character, is under no obligation to act like a madman every time ( although many do, indeed ).

Many grim criminals like to brag a lot, expecially low cultured gangsters, but even them usually pay for the beer and smoke instead of gunning down every shop keeper ( and those who do, usually don't last much before being gunned down by the police or by rival gangs ).
As an evil character you can be as much polite or jerkish you feel. You have objectives, ambitions, desires and you pursue them. If that involves hurting someone, you do that without remorse ( or EVEN with a bit of remorse, as long you provide yourself rationalizations, or simply shrug off the occasional pang of guilt ).
After all, most serial killers didn't look as asylum escapees. Many had normal works and families. They just like to do something very heinous from time to time.

Just motivate them with whatever they could desire, be it power, money, excitement, occult lore.
Of course if one ( or more ) of your character just like to do it for the evulz, also that is part of the game.

And download the Book of Vile Darkness as soon as you can. It will help you.

[Gildedragon]

Evil doesn't need to mean Bad-for-the-world or The Worst.
Evil is a mindset that prioritizes self-interest and advancement. It is ambition (even at the expense of others), drive (what others call ruthlessness), and results justifying the means... and in D&Dland it can also mean invoking infernal powers. Work with that

Establish clear rules if what you will and will not allow; my own set for evil PCs is simple: no pvp (you are a team, behave like one), no wanton/stupid evil (ie: no rape, no bashing of babies against rocks, no eating the faces of the fallen, no slaughtering of a town for the lulz, etc). Two rules curtail a lot of the "Evil is Antisocial" actions that make DMs dread the evil party.*
Have them run and save the world. If the world blows up, they blow up with it. Play to the PCs self interest, hunger for glory, and personal motivations.

*I apply similar "rules" with Paladins, ie I remind them that about 1/3 of the population reads as evil, and that smiting someone for watering down beer is excessive, unlawful, and definitely not-good: Smite is meant for incorregible evil, or self defense, or to bring a fight to end more quickly.

[Malroth]

actually i'd start with your more typical "save the orphans from kidnappers" kind of quest to actually get a feel for your players brand of evil. If they jump on the quest before any reward is mentioned, then they're really playing good, simply make a note of it and play as normal. If they refuse then change their mind once a vastly over CRed reward is offered then they're really playing a edgy neutral, simply make a note of it and make sure that you wave gold in front of them once you want to corral them towards an important objective. If they either pretend to go along to ransom the orphans back themselves or to join up with the kidnappers then they're playing a sane Evil, they'll work towards their own benefit using society and rules as weapons, motivate them with prestigue and intrigue. If they kill the townsfolk they're murderhobos and just roll on the random encounter table replacing everything evil with good and neutral creatures instead.

[Kish]

As title.

My group of three is going Wizard, Witch and Cleric. They're either Chaotic Neutral or Evil. They straight up said 'We want to play team evil in this campaign if that's okay'.

...Not sure how to follow up from that and give them what they want. I'm used to running normal, 'save the world and stuff' campaigns. What do I do?
First question: Do you want to run an evil campaign?

If you don't, then stop right there and tell them, "I'm sorry, the game I'd want to run isn't the same as the game you all want to play in. How's about she be the DM?" gesturing to one of them.

If you do, my suggestion is to take a look at the Way of the Wicked adventure path. (By default it disallows chaotic alignments, but I find the justification for that specious, and even if you don't want to run it as such, it should give you ideas for an evil campaign.)

I advise against simply giving them self-serving motives for standardly heroic actions; that's never very satisfying when what you want is to play the villains.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Find out why they want to be evil first of all.

What is the Root Cause of their choice to play team badguy?

Once that's identified, identify what kind of Evil are the gonna go for.

Is it a tragic story/epic of evil men attempting to accomplish a goal or gain wealth and power?

Or is it a funny game, where it's evil for the Lolz and you do things like have a henchman, give monologues, and set deathtraps, because that's just what is expected?

Once you identify the root cause of what the players are trying to accomplish then you can set up the plot and story with motivations.

The first rule you have to lay down is that they are all genuinely friends with each other. Or, that replacing each other would cause way more work then it's worth, and they wouldn't betray each other for anything less then a million gold pieces, at which point they double cross the enemy anyway and split it evenly. The party cannot screw each other over.

The second rule is put a cap on what evil is allowed. No rape is most likely the best start and double check with the table what they are comfortable with.

Last, find out again what adventure they want to tell. Ill give two examples that work rather well.

1. In a funny game: You work as head henchman for the Evil Overlord. You all live in the Evil Castle on the hill above the city. E.O. Rules with a comical fist. But is smart. Here are the rules you follow.

Never ever tax the revenue earners beyond what they can manage, otherwise you lose money
There are two heroes who perpetually attempt to overthrow him, your job is to defeat them without killing them. They get to be "Heroes" and you guys don't have actual Paladins showing up to kill people.
The most precious resource are the revenue earners, (Townspeople), They are to be protected at all costs
Always wear black and red
E.O. Must always have a dramatic entrance, otherwise there is no point.
Once every two weeks you must have a hearing of the Resource Earners complaints, This shows that "You Care". They must always kneel in the same place and never address the E.O. Directly.
The kneeling spot must be uncomfortable as possible, and in a hole, so as to show that they are lower then the E.O.
If they irritate the E.O. they are to be defenestrated immediately, into the moat 2 stories down.
Pay the Revenue Earner Fishermen good money, so that they will make sure to get the Revenue Earners Out of the Moat before the Aboleth Eats them.


Adventures include, Find the E.O. an evil mistress to do evil things with

Get the Evil Sword away from the Mad Cult of Evil before they destroy the world with it, because if there is no world, where will you guys all stand?

Bribe and do a quest for the Heroes occasionally so they leave you guys alone.

Basically, have the players help you design their Evil Kingdom and all of it's silliness, and have a blast getting things accomplished in an amoral and scoundrel way.


The other option is to do something like, in a more serious game.

Three bad asses want to get rich. How do they do it?

An evil cult has erupted and is going to end the world, and subsequently kill everyone. However, they pissed off the wrong party of guys who are meaner then they are.

The small group of people the party cares about is in danger or killed. How do you get revenge?


These are the ways to run the game. Find out what the players Root Goals are, and follow those. Do they want to be Evil? Or do they want to be "Bad Guys" like Deadpool or Lawful Evil?

[Dousedinoil]

First question: Do you want to run an evil campaign?

If you don't, then stop right there and tell them, "I'm sorry, the game I'd want to run isn't the same as the game you all want to play in. How's about she be the DM?" gesturing to one of them.

Agree. If you are okay with an evil campaign, Sit them all down and talk to them about the type of adventure they would like to run. Then go over alignment and what evil actually means. Make sure that they act according to their character and not "obligated to kill people because they are evil." Lots of players misunderstand what alignment actually means.

So if you're okay with it, give the people what they want! It's a co-operative story telling game where both sides should have fun, even if that means drowning orphans or whatever evil things they want to do. Just make sure everyone has the same expectations going into the adventure.

I personally have a good campaign and an evil campaign (in the works), so that I have both my bases covered.

[Geddy2112]

As title.

My group of three is going Wizard, Witch and Cleric. They're either Chaotic Neutral or Evil. They straight up said 'We want to play team evil in this campaign if that's okay'.

...Not sure how to follow up from that and give them what they want. I'm used to running normal, 'save the world and stuff' campaigns. What do I do?

Evil people can save the world, and might be better than the good guys because they are willing to cross lines to get the job done. When the planet is facing mass extinction, that means the evil people are facing that to and they won't roll over or take it lying down. They will do anything, even if that means humanoid sacrifice, murder, torture, they are going to save the planet for no other reason than they enjoy being alive. Give them a quest to gain power, or satisfy their personal reasons for being evil. They can still end up saving the world, or even be regarded as heroes for doing what had to be done. Likewise, evil is great at killing other evil things, if for nothing else than taking out the competition.

I second the sentiments of the threat to figure out why the party is evil, what kind of actions the metagame will tolerate, and that most evil characters are smart, functional, and the best ones work completely under the radar. Look at The Sopranos, or Breaking Bad-both have a very evil protagonist who has a family, and manages to go through day to day actions without killing a bar full of random people or eating children.

Likewise, understand that any alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive. Characters are their alignment because of their worldviews and actions, they are under no obligation to do evil in a situation just because they did before. Now, if they continually choose a neutral or good action, it will change, but there is no alignment cop that periodically checks in and says "Well, since its been a while since you murdered anyone, I am gonna have to bump you to neutral unless you do X evil things in the next 24 hours".

[Florian]

As title.

My group of three is going Wizard, Witch and Cleric. They're either Chaotic Neutral or Evil. They straight up said 'We want to play team evil in this campaign if that's okay'.

...Not sure how to follow up from that and give them what they want. I'm used to running normal, 'save the world and stuff' campaigns. What do I do?

"Team Evil" mostly is about action, not reaction. Dictating the conditions if you want to.

"Save the world and stuff" is about reacting to things happening in the game world, taking a reactive role. That will become trite and boring at some point. "Team Evil" and a regular Sandbox are not that different when it comes to player agency.

[Red Fel]

I know I haven't been explicitly summoned, but as a unique and powerful Evil Outsider, I'm exercising my right to appear as I please and disrupt the Material for plot-related purposes.

Hi.


...Not sure how to follow up from that and give them what they want. I'm used to running normal, 'save the world and stuff' campaigns. What do I do?

First off...


First question: Do you want to run an evil campaign?

If you don't, then stop right there and tell them, "I'm sorry, the game I'd want to run isn't the same as the game you all want to play in. How's about she be the DM?" gesturing to one of them.

Agree. If you are okay with an evil campaign, Sit them all down and talk to them about the type of adventure they would like to run. Then go over alignment and what evil actually means. Make sure that they act according to their character and not "obligated to kill people because they are evil." Lots of players misunderstand what alignment actually means.

These. If you're not okay with running an Evil campaign, do not run an Evil campaign. Let me be quite clear - if this isn't your comfort, you're likely to have a difficult time with it, and if you have a difficult time with it, then you will probably (consciously or unconsciously) make things unpleasant for your players. Thus, if you can't run it, it's in your best interest and theirs not to attempt to do so.

Be self-aware enough to know your limitations.

Second...


Find out why they want to be evil first of all.

"Team Evil" mostly is about action, not reaction. Dictating the conditions if you want to.

"Save the world and stuff" is about reacting to things happening in the game world, taking a reactive role. That will become trite and boring at some point. "Team Evil" and a regular Sandbox are not that different when it comes to player agency.

These. Running an Evil campaign is much more player-motivated than your typical heroic campaign. Evil is motivated by its own interests, not by the interests of others; you can start a campaign with "the kingdom needs" or "your master commands," but eventually it becomes a case of "Why should I care?"

Thus, because Evil is self-interested, you need to discuss expectations and goals with your players in advance. You need to know, moreso than usual, what the players want in the campaign, and what their characters' goals are. You need to come up with campaign themes and plots that allow the characters to pursue their individual aims, ideally while following the narrative structure (e.g. prevent apocalypse, save kingdom, what-have-you).

The Wizard wants to accumulate arcane power and become a Lich? Great. The Cleric wants to strike down his patron's rival and ascend to divinity? Super. The Witch wants to amass an army of the restless dead and take vengeance against those who exiled her? Spectacular. Know what they want, first and foremost, because that will influence their willingness to participate in the plot.

Heroes react to villainy that has happened - they save rescued princesses, disrupt Evil rituals, slay vicious monsters who have rampaged for too long. Evil is the villainy, and is happening in real time - as Florian points out, Good reacts, Evil acts. Let your Evil characters be more proactive.


Evil doesn't need to mean Bad-for-the-world or The Worst.

Evil people can save the world, and might be better than the good guys because they are willing to cross lines to get the job done. When the planet is facing mass extinction, that means the evil people are facing that to and they won't roll over or take it lying down. They will do anything, even if that means humanoid sacrifice, murder, torture, they are going to save the planet for no other reason than they enjoy being alive. Give them a quest to gain power, or satisfy their personal reasons for being evil. They can still end up saving the world, or even be regarded as heroes for doing what had to be done. Likewise, evil is great at killing other evil things, if for nothing else than taking out the competition.

A phenomenal amount of these. As I frequently observe,

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m57mx9ZVvl1qeh39oo2_500.gif

Evil means ruthlessly self-interested, to the point of being willing (and probably eager) to sacrifice others for your own agenda. It doesn't mean you can't perform heroic deeds (albeit in a terrible fashion); it doesn't mean you can't have friends or loved ones (albeit the relationships often appear a bit skewed); it doesn't mean you can't do all the right things for all the wrong reasons.

What an Evil campaign requires, first and foremost, is that you - as DM - embrace the ruthless self-interest of the PCs. They're going to do whatever it takes to accomplish their aims. They will murder, steal, possibly even rape - whatever it takes to reach their goals. But they don't have to be heartless caricatures; they may be complete people with overwhelming dark sides, but they can still have some specks of humanity to them.

Or they could be playing psychotic murderhobos, which really won't distinguish your game from a normal game (except that the players acknowledge the truth).

Talk to your players. Ask them what they want out of this campaign. If they want dark but complex villain-protagonists, your campaign can be designed much like a normal campaign, only intended to allow the PCs to indulge their vices and pursue their sinister goals. Be sure that certain expectations - including whether the players want or expect PvP - are abundantly clear. And if you can't handle that as DM, say so.

If they want psychotic murderhoboing, throw books and tell them to go play Duke Nukem.

And next time, I expect to be summoned promptly.

[Âmesang]

When drawing up notes for one particular evil character I started off with a quote from the DRAGONLANCE® Campaign Setting:

Black Robe wizards embrace the cause of evil. They do not, however, hurl random fireballs at peasant's cottages (at least, not usually), since such activities would abuse and jeopardize their primary loyalty, which is to magic itself. Black Robe wizards may be cruel, but they are also selfish and cunning, and avoid open acts of violence if a more subtle way can be found.
Perhaps it can help gauge what kind of evil characters the players want to play?

[Andreaz]

As title.

My group of three is going Wizard, Witch and Cleric. They're either Chaotic Neutral or Evil. They straight up said 'We want to play team evil in this campaign if that's okay'.

...Not sure how to follow up from that and give them what they want. I'm used to running normal, 'save the world and stuff' campaigns. What do I do?
Ask them to flesh out their character motivations. Maybe what they are and are not willing to do or let happen. Evil doesn't mean amoral nor driven by murderhoboing.

I'm currently playing a team evil campaign. We're the founders and headmasters of a mercenary company. Driven by greed, honor and a forsworn duty to protect a certain deposed princess (one of the founders) and destroying demonic influence everywhere (the other founder).

The game's pretty much Song of Ice and Fire at times.

[Florian]

@Red Fel:

Here, taste some Magic Circle Against Evil with a side of Quickened Holy Word, along with some extra servings of Smite Evil and a vinaigrette of Holy Water when showing up when not summoned. Home-made cornbread is free and we propose starting your smiting with some semi-fredo lemon in Prosecco.

Besides that, I partially agree with you.
The root problem of and for player agency is the take on the Status Quo.
Either it is considered a good thing been challenged by the bad guys and needs to be preserved, or it is a bad thing that needs to be redressed.

Compare two setting for this: Forgotten Realms and Midnight.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I ran an evil campaign where in the end the Party goal was to help the Garr Empire seize control of a super weapon and dominate this small continent it sat on. The land would be divided into five regions with each PC being made Regent of there own territory. The Ultimate Magus would have massive resources for his research, The evil Cleric could make his faith the dominate one, The Warforged was loyal to the Empire anyways etc etc.

It didn't turn out that way in the end. They planned to trick a legendary artificer into safely disabling the weapon so it could be captured. Instead he just wanted to make sure he had access to the core of the weapon so he could insure its complete destruction. The PC the trusted to make sure the artificer didn't betray them... was in on it. As one self-interested PC decided that the destruction of a weapon that could blight an entire city insuring nothing could live there again while simultaneously weakening the barriers between dimensions was in EVERYONE's self interest.

[Spore]

Lord Vukodlak's avatar reminded me of the most impressive evil "campaign" I have ever witnessed. The story of the Soul Reaver games is indeed one of evil PCs. Evil vs. evil is a good basic plot for any story that involves evil characters. You can spice it up by throwing the occasional Paladin in it (bonus points for having the Paladin fight for his righteous cause and simultaneously being manipulated by the villain to dispose of the PCs).

For those uninitiated:
The vampire Kain created some vampire sons to rule over his failing empire. He is actually the Chosen One destined to sacrifice himself for the salvation of the world but refused and is now governing a failing empire. His eldest son Raziel received wings frrom an evolutionary cycle vampires go under in this world and in an act of fear and petty brutality Kain rips the wings off and throws his son into a spiral vortex of water - the lake of the dead - which torments vampires eternally.

Raziel however survived protected by an Elder god (think Lovecraftian) and is now out for his revenge.

Point is: Raziel does not go out of his way to needlessly torture his enemies but his ultimate goal is revenge. His agenda is about freedom of choice while being manipulated by various other characters. If he needs to kill off a few dozen vampire hunters, so be it. If he needs to beat up some demons, so be it.

Potential story spoiler:
If he needs to kill his human Paladin self in a time travelling story, so be it.

His actions are not result of his alignment. His alignment is result of his choices.

[Necromancy]

Do everyone a favor, have your players define their characters by their motivations and leave the alignment entry blank. Having a little "E" on that line makes people act stupid

[Florian]

Do everyone a favor, have your players define their characters by their motivations and leave the alignment entry blank. Having a little "E" on that line makes people act stupid

Why?

Alignment is not a cage that traps you, instead it is a ready-made set of motivations.

We´re used to a moral grey environment and living in it.
Playing a game gives us the freedom to define what we want to do and pull that off. It can be as liberating to experience the moral clarity of a Paladin as out is to be on the personal power-trip a Wizard on the way to Lichdom has.

[Necromancy]

Because people often carry a misconception about what evil is. They tend to glance at that alignment entry and think "oh crap, I haven't killed any toddlers today and the DM is gonna dock my xps"

[Âmesang]

No toddler killing, but my current evil character wears sealskin boots. Does that count? :smalltongue: Clubs are free, can't take too much effort to club one… but what's the Craft DC for boots?!

(There's that, and the perfume distilled from dryad's blood. Either one should fill some sort of evil quota, I guess.)

I'm also reminded of a particular quote:

"You think I'M bad, wait'll you meet my lawyers!" — Guisman, Double Dragon

[Honest Tiefling]

I suggest using Illithids or similar aberrations. Demons could also work. Firstly, torturing them isn't likely to produce results, so you dodge that question. Betraying the others to an aberration or demon isn't likely to end well, and most people would probably be disinclined to do so, even when the poop has hit the fan and they want to save their hide. It also gives them a pretty good reason to stick together, unless they want to become a body horror begging to die.

And I second sitting them down and talking about it. Tell them to sell you on the idea. And for the love of Gygax, go over PvP rules!

[Randomthom]

First-off, DM'ing an Evil campaign is difficult.

Good players can generally be expected to do good things or at least with minimal enticement. Evil characters simply can't.

Instead, you'll need to speak with your players beforehand, to help you understand their character's own motivations & goals.
e.g.
"I want to become head of the thieves guild and arrange the greatest heist the realms have ever known"
"I'm just here for the money, I don't care who I step on to get there"
"I will take revenge on my home nation by manipulating X nation into a war with them"

This conversation does two things, it gives you an idea of the characters so you can develop the world to fit with their motivations. It also prompts them to think more deeply about what form their evil takes. Evil without motivation tends toward stupid.

[Florian]

First-off, DM'ing an Evil campaign is difficult.

Good players can generally be expected to do good things or at least with minimal enticement. Evil characters simply can't.

Sorry, that is wrong on so many levels, it borders on causing physical pain reading it.

The main difference is between active and reactive. Handling a reactive game is always easy, as the gm is firmly in control of things. Handling an active game is the hard one, as the gm needs the experience and tools to stay sharp, fair and be creative on the fly.

"Good" and "Evil" are bull**** terms when it comes to the reactive game. The Status Quo is considered to be "Good" and "Evil" comes to challenge it. Booja! React and defend the Status Quo!

The active game is about defeating that Status Quo yourself. It makes no difference if that is the "Evil" way to power or the "Good" guys going up against an established tyranny.

[Quertus]

My evil characters are much more party friendly than my good characters.

Good characters can be lazy hobbit home bodies that don't want adventure. Good characters can have moral qualms about a given quest. Good characters can be hard to motivate. (my) evil characters are driven, motivated individuals who will push a plot forward.

Good characters can view the party as trigger-happy, idealistic, greedy, idiots, murder hobos, etc, and cause all kinds of intra-party conflict. (my) evil characters view the party as valuable resources; their "foibles" are merely buttons to push to elicit the desired response.


First-off, DM'ing an Evil campaign is difficult.

Good players can generally be expected to do good things or at least with minimal enticement. Evil characters simply can't.

Instead, you'll need to speak with your players beforehand, to help you understand their character's own motivations & goals.
e.g.
"I want to become head of the thieves guild and arrange the greatest heist the realms have ever known"
"I'm just here for the money, I don't care who I step on to get there"
"I will take revenge on my home nation by manipulating X nation into a war with them"

This conversation does two things, it gives you an idea of the characters so you can develop the world to fit with their motivations. It also prompts them to think more deeply about what form their evil takes. Evil without motivation tends toward stupid.

Running a good campaign is difficult. Evil characters can be expected to pursue their goals, no matter the cost (to others), with no outside enticement. Good characters simply can't. With good characters, you need to talk to the players beforehand, to find out what their motivations are, and design the campaign accordingly.

Really, I advocate talking to the players beforehand, regardless of their alignment. I've seen too many DMs bitten by their assumptions that good is a one size fits all alignment, and that every adventurer should care about every adventure, just because they wrote "good" on their character sheet. Real people, and role-played characters, are more complex than that.