Crafting at character creation

[Endless Query]

Had a bit of an extended disagreement with someone else about how to handle characters with crafting skills. Now, in most games I've been in (admittedly, they've generally been permissive groups in general), if you have crafting skills, you could start with anything you could craft as though you had crafted it (reduced cost, basically), basically presuming you had the time to do it at some point in your career before whenever the story started.

Now, I'll definitely say I have a few reservations about that myself. Mostly in that, since it's functionally an auto success, anything that'd require someone to roll like 15-20s to progress... Ehhh, might be a bit leery on.

Their stance was: Nope, nothing, absolutely not. Don't care if you have 2-3 crafting feats, start with everything at full price, because otherwise you're unabalancing your WBL compared to the party's.

And I might consider agreeing if not for the fact that if, say, you'd been adventuring with various characters over time, making your stuff but not necessarily making theirs (because maybe they had some stuff when you met/weren't around, they were a ****, you were a ****, w/e), you'd have the exact same WBL split from natural gameplay progression. Hell, if the item creation feat is for something esoteric your character uses but others don't (Like, I dunno, Shadow Piercings or Tattoos or one of those niche crafting feats that seem to be cropping up in PF lately), it would definitively happen that way. As such, it feels like denying crafters the discounts they're paying feats for because other members of the party don't neccessarily have those discounts (... Or spent feats) seems kind of unreasonable to me.

I've shopped it out to a few of my online friends who had... More coarse things to say about the other's position, but I'm fully willing to admit I could be wrong or missing something or whatever, so I'd like to hear the positions people hold. Super permissive? Moderately permissive? Forbidding? What's the most reasonable way generally, do you think?

[Efrate]

As long as you pay the XP and the GP I would have no problem with it other than the don't be a d-bag rule. You are effectively getting double WBL for some XP and feats, and thats sounds insane but provided you have the time and resources, why not? That is the entire point of crafting. I've had a dwarven armorsmith who made his own MW full plate and entered play with it at like level 3 or 4 because he crafted it himself, for protection against the orcs that had killed his master and he wanted vengence upon. A convincing backstory never hurt, but again depends on your DM.

For PF it is easier since there is no distinction of must work for 8 hours a day blah blah blah cannot adventure whilst crafting, which I could see being a snag, but even if 3.5 downtime exists for a reason.

Partway solution: keep it so you have no item whose normal price is 1/2 or more of your WBL. I think this is a reasonable compromise. So if your WBL is 21k, you can have no item whose list cost is 10,500 gp or more. Meaning even though you make a +4 stat item for less than that you couldn't have it because its base price is 16k.

That should keep your itemization in check, yet still provide you with the benefits you paid for. Its worse than what you should have I think, but I'm a nice DM no matter what my players say.

If your DM doesn't believe in narrative downtime however, and every adventure immediately follows the finish of the last one, with a brief stop in town to sell, id, shop, regain spells, then off again, you may wish to reconsider things.

As long as can meet all the prerequisites, craft away.

[Endarire]

By RAW, you can pre-craft. Talk with your GM to determine if they agree.

My stance on pre-crafting has been thus: If you can take 10 (or less) on relevant checks pre-game checks and succeed that way, it's a deal.

Also, how does thie group feel about crafting in general? If they don't want you crafting, they'll find their own logic for prohibiting it.

[The Vagabond]

You could take Pathfinder's approach to pre-game crafting; Grant the character an extra 25% of their WBL on items they can craft for one feat, up to 50% for multiple feats.

[Endless Query]

You could take Pathfinder's approach to pre-game crafting; Grant the character an extra 25% of their WBL on items they can craft for one feat, up to 50% for multiple feats.

Huh, I don't think I've ever heard that before, is there a specific page or something that enumerates that? Not sure it'll matter in this discussion, but if something like this comes up again in a PF game it'd be nice to have direct rules references to refer to.

Nevermind, knowing it exists permitted me to find it =P

[KillianHawkeye]

Technically, the other guy is correct. WBL is not an amount of gold that you get to spend, it the supposed accumulated value of all of your gear and miscellaneous items. Items that you craft cost less, but their value is identical, so it doesn't matter for WBL purposes.

[Florian]

@Endless Query:

Investing in crafting skills and feats is nothing but a shift from personal power over to higher WBL efficiency. You can individually do less, but you gain more in an indirect manner.
Disallowing pre-game crafting would significantly devalue the taken investment and put the character that did this in a disadvantage.
To stick with PF, take a look at a purely mundane going the Master Craftsman route. 2+ feats and dedicating some ranks in least one craft skill is no small investment, en par with, let´s say, going into mounted combat and the ride skill.
If that character doesn´t gain the 25%/50% boost to WBL, you´re practically cheating him.

[Endless Query]

The last two posts are an interesting pairing. The first is, more or less, the stance I was working, er... Against (and I've finally found someone who agreed with it, took some doing actually), while the 2nd is... Exactly what basically everyone else had said. Also, at least, by PF standard, Killian, I am now aware that you are, in fact, straight up mistaken and going against RAW. Er, and RAI actually:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Adjusting-Character-Wealth-by-Level

Also, Florian, thank you for so directly and clearly enumerating what I was trying to say in more direct, less general terms. May have to steal that argument straight across if the discussion ends up... Continuing.

[Florian]

Also, Florian, thank you for so directly and clearly enumerating what I was trying to say in more direct, less general terms. May have to steal that argument straight across if the discussion ends up... Continuing.

It´s a common mistake because you find a price tag on items, but not on class features, skill ranks or feats. That leads to the knee-jerk reaction of valuing the priced thing higher than what could be considered free, therefore worthless.

If you want fodder for an argument, compare abilities and feats that allow the breaking of WBL with crafting feats that alter WBL. A Fighter taking the appropriate feats, a Paladin using weapon bond, a Magus using arcane pool, all will get more mileage out of their basic weapon equal to what crafting would allow.

[Âmesang]

Technically, the other guy is correct. WBL is not an amount of gold that you get to spend, it the supposed accumulated value of all of your gear and miscellaneous items. Items that you craft cost less, but their value is identical, so it doesn't matter for WBL purposes.
On the other hand the DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide suggests that NPCs with Craft feats only pay 70% market value for typical, related items—50% material cost and 20% representing XP spent × 5 gp. :smallconfused:

For example, a CL 10 wand of fireball heightened to 4th-level has a market value of 30,000 gp and would cost a character with Craft Wand only 21,000 gp in WBL—15,000 gp for materials, and 6,000 gp for XP (1,200 XP × 5 gp). After all, he didn't have to take Craft Wand, but there appears to be some incentive to reward characters who do take the "time" to craft their own stuff.

[Quertus]

Had a bit of an extended disagreement with someone else about how to handle characters with crafting skills. Now, in most games I've been in (admittedly, they've generally been permissive groups in general), if you have crafting skills, you could start with anything you could craft as though you had crafted it (reduced cost, basically), basically presuming you had the time to do it at some point in your career before whenever the story started.

Now, I'll definitely say I have a few reservations about that myself. Mostly in that, since it's functionally an auto success, anything that'd require someone to roll like 15-20s to progress... Ehhh, might be a bit leery on.

Their stance was: Nope, nothing, absolutely not. Don't care if you have 2-3 crafting feats, start with everything at full price, because otherwise you're unabalancing your WBL compared to the party's.

And I might consider agreeing if not for the fact that if, say, you'd been adventuring with various characters over time, making your stuff but not necessarily making theirs (because maybe they had some stuff when you met/weren't around, they were a ****, you were a ****, w/e), you'd have the exact same WBL split from natural gameplay progression. Hell, if the item creation feat is for something esoteric your character uses but others don't (Like, I dunno, Shadow Piercings or Tattoos or one of those niche crafting feats that seem to be cropping up in PF lately), it would definitively happen that way. As such, it feels like denying crafters the discounts they're paying feats for because other members of the party don't neccessarily have those discounts (... Or spent feats) seems kind of unreasonable to me.

I've shopped it out to a few of my online friends who had... More coarse things to say about the other's position, but I'm fully willing to admit I could be wrong or missing something or whatever, so I'd like to hear the positions people hold. Super permissive? Moderately permissive? Forbidding? What's the most reasonable way generally, do you think?

It's only fair that your investment be rewarded.

Just make sure you make all the rolls, and pay the 10x market price for items you keep flubbing on. Back in 3.0, when getting an animal companion was a spell, I had my animal of choice make saves, and paid for every casting / charge, until I got my companion.

Alternately, just start with the materials (and xp components) to craft whatever you want to have. Don't start with any gear you can craft. Meets both criteria.

But let's take this to an extreme. A necropolitan who can hit a craft DC to make something - anything (nail, toothpick, whatever) - should be able to produce a NI amount of funds in the NI amount of time that they have "lived" before the campaign started. Most people would say that having a 3rd level character start with 2,000,000,000,000 gp in assets is unfair. In actuality, it's completely fair and realistic, using the same logic as mortal crafters getting a bump to WBL. It's merely a matter of where we want to draw the line for game balance purposes.


On the other hand the DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide suggests that NPCs with Craft feats only pay 70% market value for typical, related items—50% material cost and 20% representing XP spent × 5 gp. :smallconfused:

For example, a CL 10 wand of fireball heightened to 4th-level has a market value of 30,000 gp and would cost a character with Craft Wand only 21,000 gp in WBL—15,000 gp for materials, and 6,000 gp for XP (1,200 XP × 5 gp). After all, he didn't have to take Craft Wand, but there appears to be some incentive to reward characters who do take the "time" to craft their own stuff.

I'm glad RAW has answered this problem. Moving on.

Show the GM this rule. If he doesn't go for RAW, start with the materials to craft the items yourself.

Whichever route you go, if it's something you can craft for others, give the other PCs the option to do the same!

If the DM doesn't give you time to make the items, he's a **** DM - leave.

Now, to be fair, I once had a character start the game with a masterwork weapon, and the cash in hand to have it enchanted, because, RP-wise, getting his weapon enchanted was his reason for coming to the "big city". This seemed like a good way to get the character involved with the party. Well, we had our first adventure while my weapon was still being enchanted. I spent the whole first adventure trying to contribute with clever use of secondary abilities. So there's a difference between "doesn't let you start with the items" and "doesn't give you time to make them, ever". Which, if you're running a crafting character, is like letting someone run a sorcerer when the campaign takes place entirely in antimagic.

[RedMage125]

If we're talking first level, I don't see the problem. 1st level characters have no XP to burn on magic item crafting. For crafting of non-magical gear, it's not really all that game-breaking.

Example, armor:
Fighters, Paladins and Clerics (the 3 classes proficient with Heavy Armor at level 1) get either 5d4x10gp or 6d4x10gp. Even if you give them max starting gold and allow crafting, the heaviest armor they could craft is banded mail, one point of ac higher than chainmail, which they could afford outright. Above level 1, they could craft full-plate, but so what?

Example, weapons:
Most weapons are affordable with starting gold (I, and a lot of DMs give max starting gold). Exceptions are some double weapons, and composite longbows with a STR bonus. If you have a PC who's an archer, it it REALLY game breaking to allow them to make their bow and get a STR bonus at 1st level? Not really. Also, anyone who has invested in TWF and proficiency in a double weapon (which are exotic), why would they not have said weapon at level 1?

TL;DR-while there are some compelling arguments in regards to disallowing pre-game crafting for magic items, allowing it for non-magical ones isn't game breaking at all.

[Eladrinblade]

Basically, they're wrong.

If you take crafting skills/feats, you have given up power. You should get some benefit in return, namely: more stuff. If you don't get more stuff, you have wasted ranks/feats.

Were it me, I'd rule that you can't spend more than 40% of your total WBL on items you have crafted (that require a feat to make), and if a crafting check(s) is necessary, you must be able to pass it on a 10.

[Endless Query]

Well, this is all more or less what I THOUGHT the answer was, so... Whoo, rationality/sanity check successful. Granted, this leaves me in the awkward position of dealing with a GM who is absolute in their position that, so far as I've been able to tell, is absolutely wrong. Which is... Awkward. But at least now I know.