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Fax Celestis
2007-06-26, 05:51 PM
I ran my party of 7 ECL 7s against this monster last night. It comes from the White Plume Mountain adventure, and is typed as CR 8.

ADVANCED HUGE MONSTROUS CRAB (CR 8)
N Huge vermin (aquatic)
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, Listen +0, Spot +4
AC 22, touch 8, flat-footed 22
hp 107 (16 HD)
Immune mind-affecting effects
Fort +12, Ref +5, Will +5
Spd 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee claw +18 (2d6+8) or
Melee 2 claws +18 (2d6+8)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +12; Grp +32
Atk Options constrict 4d6+8, improved grab
Abilities Str 26, Dex 11, Con 14, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2
SQ amphibious
Feats ToughnessB
Skills Hide –4, Spot +4

Amphibious (Ex): Although an advanced Huge monstrous crab is aquatic, it can survive indefinitely on land.

Constrict (Ex): An advanced Huge monstrous crab deals damage equal to twice its normal claw damage plus its Strength bonus on a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an advanced Huge monstrous crab must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

The party survived the fight only because I was using the Constrict rules wrong. Every time the crab attacked, it swung with two claws at +18, with 15' reach. If it hit with one claw, it immediately made a grapple check at +32.

These claws never missed, and the grapples were impossible to beat. If I had followed the constrict rules, every time the crab got a turn, it would have been dealing 8d6+32 damage (an average of 60). A d10 HD character with a Con of 16 has an average of 72 hp. In essence, anyone with a d8 or lower would have been one-shotted, and anyone who survived would have had to have made a massive damage save.

This can't possibly be CR 8. And yet, it is. Where'm I wrong?

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-06-26, 06:04 PM
You're not man. That critter is good for two to three party kills before going down if confronted point blank.

Callix
2007-06-26, 06:05 PM
It doesn't look like you are wrong. A 16HD animal with STR 26, Improved Grab and Constrict AND a 15ft reach is too tough for 8th level parties. Short of having a Medium-sized hole to hide in and shoot from, there's not much you can do. This is the writer's goof, not yours IMO.

GoblinJTHM
2007-06-26, 06:06 PM
you mean they saw this thing and didn't go starship troopers all over it? please.

Hadrian_Emrys
2007-06-26, 06:07 PM
Starship Troopers A.K.A. die horribly in their first encounter.

Dhavaer
2007-06-26, 06:07 PM
They advanced That Damn Crab!? It's broken when normal, and it's not any better when advanced, apparently.

bigbaddragon
2007-06-26, 06:08 PM
Constrict (Ex): An advanced Huge monstrous crab deals damage equal to twice its normal claw damage plus its Strength bonus on a successful grapple check.

Atk Options constrict 4d6+8 = 2 * (normal claw damage = 2d6) + (Str modifier = 8)

This is how I would read/understand/apply it. But this doesn't change the fact that +32 grapple is to much.

silentknight
2007-06-26, 06:08 PM
I thought that constrict dealt regular damage (4d6+8) automatically, but the constricted creature had to get out of the grapple to avoid it.

I'm not sure where the double weapon damage (4d6 x2 = 8d6) or quadruple Str mod (8 x4 =32) in your calculation comes from.

erm...nevermind

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-26, 06:11 PM
The CR is probably wrong, however, there are two things that the party should have had access to, that would have made things easier:

Fly spells
Ranged Attacks.

EDIT- Also, unless it takes -20 to grapple, it becomes vulnerable to sneak attack. 4 level 8 characters would have a problem dealing with that if they didn't use good strategy(I think that is the definition of CR 9-10), but 7 level 7s should have have been able to take it easy.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-26, 06:20 PM
The Constrict works like this: Claw attacks at d20+18. If it hits (which it probably will, dealing 2d6+8), it gets an immediate grapple check (at d20+32). If it succeeds on this grapple check, it immediately deals double claw damage (4d6+16). During a full attack, it gets 2 claws +18, for 4d6+16 damage, plus the potential for a constrict at 4d6+16. In fact, it gets two constricts if it hits with both claws.

As for being vulnerable, if it one-shots you, it doesn't have to maintain grapple, thereby making it harder to SA, etc.

And flight/ranged attacks? When you're inside a 60' wide, 30' tall membrane, fly doesn't do much, particularly when it has a +8 jump mod and 15' reach. Ranged attacks ping off it's AC 22, unless you somehow swing a touch attack at it.

This is one tough sucker.

Corolinth
2007-06-26, 06:25 PM
Few things

1) Characters rarely have average hit points.
2) The nature of D&D is very random and streaky. A +18 attack bonus can still very realistically miss an AC of 22 (trust me).
3) Huge creatures are nasty.
4) A huge crab shouldn't be using both claws to grapple the same medium-sized character. The rules don't say you can't, but it doesn't make sense both from a tactical standpoint and spatial relations.
5) I realize it's typed as a vermin, but crabs should be animals. Which brings me to...
6) Animal intelligence.

A crab should be susceptible to wild empathy and other abilities that effect animals. If you're using the claws against different PCs, instead of going after the same one, the damage becomes more manageable. Dumb creatures are generally less challenging, despite any innate toughness they have. A crab who gets shocked with a lightning bolt should probably drop one or more grappled characters because he's dumb, in pain, and generally surprised. Intelligence is something a lot of DMs overlook when they run encounters.

Also, I see you're running seven characters. I'll concur that seven should've had no problem (although that doesn't mean nobody's dying). A CR is balanced for four characters. I'm pretty sure that if this were typed as an animal instead of a vermin, given an intelligence score of 1 so that it's not mindless, and run like the dumb crab it's supposed to be, a level 8 party could defeat it.

Yechezkiel
2007-06-26, 06:28 PM
That is the coolest, nastiest looking crab monster and I've got to throw it at some party now.

tbarrie
2007-06-26, 06:28 PM
By far my favorite part of that write-up is that they gave it Toughness as a bonus feat.

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-26, 06:29 PM
AC 22? That isn't high AC for CR 8. The surrounding terrain negates its lack of ranged attacks, but you didn't mention that earlier. Terrain that gives it an advatantage is at least a +1 CR, probably +2 since the terrain negates its biggest weakness.

But still: level 7, so 7 BAB +probably 3-4 attack stat, + probably 1 or 2 enhancement is a +11-13 AB. With 7 people, I would expect that you have a ranged attack specialist.


Given the terrain, I'm not surprised that it was so rough. At level 7, a space of 1 or 2 CR is still pretty large.

crazedloon
2007-06-26, 06:29 PM
well I think you may be mistaken sorta (its still a tough sucker) but when you hit and win the grapple check the critter is in a grapple and thus takes all the negatives. and once in a grapple you only get extra attacks from a high enough attack bonus (at least I am 90% sure of that) so he is in grapple and will only get 1 grapple attempt each round which is your (2*2d6)+8. So in order to keep using all his claws he would need to grapple (via the hit and Improved Grab) do constrict damage then next round "escape" with a standard action and wait another turn.

At least that is how I think it works not much better for the group but It think it is a CR encounter.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-26, 06:30 PM
1) Characters rarely have average hit points.
I've provided my characters the option of either rolling for HP or taking average. Most have taken average.


2) The nature of D&D is very random and streaky. A +18 attack bonus can still very realistically miss an AC of 22 (trust me).
The crab rolled well, and hit on every claw attack.


3) Huge creatures are nasty. Yes, but this is particularly nasty.


4) A huge crab shouldn't be using both claws to grapple the same medium-sized character. The rules don't say you can't, but it doesn't make sense both from a tactical standpoint and spatial relations.
Why not? It picks you up in both claws, crushes you, and tears you in half. Now that you're dead, it moves to its next target.


5) I realize it's typed as a vermin, but crabs should be animals. Which brings me to...
They should be, but they're (surprisingly) not.


6) Animal intelligence.
They're actually mindless, which means that they're less dangerous than they could be. Sure, they're immune to mind-affecting effects, but if this sucker had intelligence, he'd have feats, too, and somehow I see this guy with Improved Grapple and other feats being far more dangerous. He would get 6 feats to choose from. How about Power Attack and Improved Grapple?

MandibleBones
2007-06-26, 06:31 PM
If it hit with one claw, it immediately made a grapple check at +32.

Call me crazy, but I don't know a lot of ECL8 characters who can win at grapple against 1d20+32 on a regular basis - if at all.

Jasdoif
2007-06-26, 06:36 PM
Where'd they get +32 Grapple, anyway? I came up with +28. (+12 BAB, +8 Str, +8 size).

I'd also be quite interested to see the pre-advancement crab stats, including its original CR.

Corolinth
2007-06-26, 06:41 PM
Most creatures don't have extra attacks for high BAB. They have additional natural weapons instead. So yes, he would get the grapple for each claw.

As for terrain, why don't they get out of that area? I've never read white plume mountain, so I don't know what the terrain is like, however if they got in they ought to be able to get out.

ByeLindgren
2007-06-26, 06:43 PM
The crab being vermin and thus mindless is actually a benefit due to that meager will save. Its offense goes up as an animal, but there are so many ways to one-shot it before it can do anything.

As is, I'd CR that monstrosity much higher than 8.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-26, 06:46 PM
Where'd they get +32 Grapple, anyway? I came up with +28. (+12 BAB, +8 Str, +8 size).

I'd also be quite interested to see the pre-advancement crab stats, including its original CR.

The original creature is the Monstrous Crab in Stormwrack.

crazedloon
2007-06-26, 06:51 PM
Most creatures don't have extra attacks for high BAB. They have additional natural weapons instead. So yes, he would get the grapple for each claw.

As for terrain, why don't they get out of that area? I've never read white plume mountain, so I don't know what the terrain is like, however if they got in they ought to be able to get out.

I realize that but I guess I was just interpreting this line from the SRD

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

(Emphasis mine)

To mean you can not do more then 1 unless you gain more attacks via BaB but then I may be wrong I was never good at understanding smaller things like this without someone explaining how it should be interpreted.

Jasdoif
2007-06-26, 06:51 PM
So it's in a book I don't have. Figures.

I don't believe its CR is justified, but I did come up with a possible way to handle the thing. I just realized that repel vermin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/repelVermin.htm) isn't just a ranger spell, a level 7 cleric or druid can prepare it. That might be enough to get a party by it (or at least hold it off while pelting the thing with ranged attacks), I don't believe a mindless vermin should have the option of ignoring pain.

Deepblue706
2007-06-26, 06:53 PM
Mmm Mmm! Looks great!

I agree, it's not CR 8. I'd say it's PERFECT for a group of level 1 adventurers. At least, that's what I'll say when my PCs ask - and when they die I'll just say they used poor tactics.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-26, 06:54 PM
I realize that but I guess I was just interpreting this line from the SRD

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

(Emphasis mine)

To mean you can not do more then 1 unless you gain more attacks via BaB but then I may be wrong I was never good at understanding smaller things like this without someone explaining how it should be interpreted.

The crab isn't getting extra attacks for BAB; it's getting extra attacks for having extra natural weapons. Not the same thing.

Dhavaer
2007-06-26, 06:55 PM
Where'd they get +32 Grapple, anyway? I came up with +28. (+12 BAB, +8 Str, +8 size).

I'd also be quite interested to see the pre-advancement crab stats, including its original CR.

That Damn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)

Corolinth
2007-06-26, 06:55 PM
I'll cover these in order.

I've provided my characters the option of either rolling for HP or taking average. Most have taken average.Groovy.

The crab rolled well, and hit on every claw attack.As expected, but this doesn't in any way mean that hitting is a given. Luck is a factor in any fight.

Yes, but this is particularly nasty.[quote]No arguments here. Doesn't mean it's too powerful for a level 8 party.[QUOTE=Fax_Celestis;2795665]Why not? It picks you up in both claws, crushes you, and tears you in half. Now that you're dead, it moves to its next target.Why not? How about because it's a big honking claw picking up a five and a half foot human? Where's it going to put the second claw? The second reason is that two people grappled and taking constrict damage is better than one. This is a creature that feels pain. It's also a stupid crab. It doesn't think, "How can I kill them fastest?" It thinks, "Rawr! Hurting! Make that person stop hurting me!"

They should be, but they're (surprisingly) not.It's not your fault the writer typed this creature wrong. You're a reasonably smart person running a game. Fix it.

They're actually mindless, which means that they're less dangerous than they could be. Sure, they're immune to mind-affecting effects, but if this sucker had intelligence, he'd have feats, too, and somehow I see this guy with Improved Grapple and other feats being far more dangerous. He would get 6 feats to choose from. How about Power Attack and Improved Grapple?Yes, I see they're actually mindless. I also see where they're actually vermin. Now granted, they're likely made mindless vermin to intentionally not give them feats, but that doesn't change the fact that a crab is an animal and should be susceptible to wild empathy, hold animal, and other such effects.

However, none of this addresses the major point which is that this crab is dumb. Run it like it's dumb. That person who threw a lightning bolt at me? Scarey! Run away and hide! Nevermind that I'm big and bad and can rip him in half, he just through lightning at me and it hurt! This crab is not a tactical genius, and that's why it's CR8. The PCs can win because they're able to outsmart it.

crazedloon
2007-06-26, 06:59 PM
The crab isn't getting extra attacks for BAB; it's getting extra attacks for having extra natural weapons. Not the same thing.
I relize that what I am saying is in a grapple it should only get 1 "Attack" becuase as I read it getting any extra attacks in a grapple only happens if your BaB provides for more. Feel free to say otherwise.


Just to keep on topic what are the memebers of the party that had to fight this thing?

Fax Celestis
2007-06-26, 07:00 PM
The problem with the "ohgodI'mhurtingflee" reaction of the crab is two things: 1. It had nowhere to run to. The PCs had invaded its nest; and 2. they really weren't hurting it that much. I think the hardest hit it took was about 20 damage.

Also, the +32 grapple comes from an ability they forgot to list:


Powerful Claws (Ex): A monstrous crab always applies 1.5 times its Strength modifier to damage inflicted with its claws. Additionally, it gains a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks.

Corolinth
2007-06-26, 07:02 PM
The crab being vermin and thus mindless is actually a benefit due to that meager will save. Its offense goes up as an animal, but there are so many ways to one-shot it before it can do anything.Not true. It's mindless, which means its meager will save is a moot point. Most will saves are mind-effecting spells and abilities, and this crab does not have a mind to effect. Furthermore, it doesn't have a meager will save so much as average for a 16HD animal. You'll notice its wisdom is 11.


To mean you can not do more then 1 unless you gain more attacks via BaB but then I may be wrong I was never good at understanding smaller things like this without someone explaining how it should be interpreted.Repeat after me: Rules are for players.

Basically, monsters are run by slightly different rules. Once you accept that, it's a whole lot easier to understand.

Corolinth
2007-06-26, 07:09 PM
The problem with the "ohgodI'mhurtingflee" reaction of the crab is two things: 1. It had nowhere to run to. The PCs had invaded its nestThis isn't a problem. Not your problem, anyway. You weren't the genius who kicked down the door to this badass crab's nest.

2. they really weren't hurting it that much. I think the hardest hit it took was about 20 damage.It's not how much damage is dealt with the attack, it's how scary the attack would seem to a dumb animal. Six foot fighter with a sword? Not scary. Five foot elf with a spear that multiplies in flight like the goblin chief in Goblins? Creepy. Three-foot halfling with a fiery ball of setting my nest on fire? Terrifying.

CockroachTeaParty
2007-06-26, 07:14 PM
I don't think anybody said this yet, and I can't resist...

So there's this giant enemy crab, right? Well, you can attack its weak spot for MASSIVE DAMAGE!

...

Ridge Racer!!

Starsinger
2007-06-26, 07:15 PM
This isn't a problem. Not your problem, anyway. You weren't the genius who kicked down the door to this badass crab's nest.
It's not how much damage is dealt with the attack, it's how scary the attack would seem to a dumb animal. Six foot fighter with a sword? Not scary. Five foot elf with a spear that multiplies in flight like the goblin chief in Goblins? Creepy. Three-foot halfling with a fiery ball of setting my nest on fire? Terrifying.

And that there may lie the key as to why the crab doesn't flee. Isn't an animals instinct to protect their nests/offspring to the death?

But uhh... that crab is terrifying. Normally, I don't support "I win" magic, I find it distasteful.. but this creature is clearly asking for some broken spell combo.

goat
2007-06-26, 07:15 PM
Well, I suppose you could smash it with Ray of Exhaustion until it's at half speed then fall back slowly while hitting it with things.

The main problem is the 15ft reach, so get someone with a reach weapon, hit them with an enlarge person and have them drop back out of range, smacking at it when it gets close.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-26, 07:18 PM
Just to keep on topic what are the memebers of the party that had to fight this thing?

Lessee. All ECL 7.

Lesser Urskan Barbarian (AoOmonger/reachmonkey)
Dark Human Swordsage (blaster)
Dark Changeling Rogue/Warblade (slightly lower ECL; sneaky striker)
Human Favored Soul (healbot)
Human Psychic Monk (finesse fighter)
Goliath Crusader (charger/tank)
Catfolk Sorceror (utility/divination)

Sundog
2007-06-26, 07:26 PM
I disagree entirely that a Crab should be Animal. It's an Arthropod (the same group as insects and spiders), all of which are classed as Vermin.

Damionte
2007-06-26, 07:27 PM
I don't think anybody said this yet, and I can't resist...

So there's this giant enemy crab, right? Well, you can attack its weak spot for MASSIVE DAMAGE!

...

Ridge Racer!!

I don't get it.

Brother_Franklin
2007-06-26, 07:34 PM
Don't run single monster encounters agianst large parties. Ever. (Well unless the plot really demands it.)

In fact, don't run large parites agianst less then four enimies, unless your willing to let someone die.

How do you think they would have faired with two CR 5 crabs? Or even better four CR 3 crabs?

ByeLindgren
2007-06-26, 07:36 PM
Not true. It's mindless, which means its meager will save is a moot point. Most will saves are mind-effecting spells and abilities, and this crab does not have a mind to effect. Furthermore, it doesn't have a meager will save so much as average for a 16HD animal. You'll notice its wisdom is 11.
I don't think we disagree here. I never said it wasn't mindless. I said that the crab being mindless made it more challenging than it not being mindless. Had the crab been statted as a 1 int animal, it could have been taken out with a ranged touch attack by a cheesy level 3 wizard. More realistically, it could have been Feared away or something. Since it's mindless, though, Mr. Crab's will save (which may be average, but is still meager compared to level 7 casters' spell DCs) doesn't have to deal with much besides some illusions and Unluck. In short, the will save is a 'moot point' unless you restat the thing as an animal.

Though now that I think about it, weakening Mr. Crab by making the caster more effective against him is probably not the best idea.

Jasdoif
2007-06-26, 07:42 PM
That Damn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)Thanks much.


Also, the +32 grapple comes from an ability they forgot to list:...they also forgot to increase the claw damage from the same ability; should've been 2d6+12 if it gets Strength-and-a-half.

Instead, they changed Constrict to deal double claw damage, instead of claw damage.

bugsysservant
2007-06-26, 07:47 PM
I know that there are quotes, but I'm too lazy to find them. That being said...

It wouldn't hit a target with both claw attacks simultaneously. If you look at the creature from which it was advanced, it states "Once a monstrous crab has a morsel or creature in each claw, it retreats into the water to feed." Clearly this is more of a "take out as many as possible before they realize that I far more powerful than them and run away" kind of monster.

It should certainly be an animal. Though it is an arthropod, as Sundog pointed out, there are numerous arthropods (notably chelicerates) who don't fall under vermin-think Araneas. even though other crabs are vermin, a vermin is defined as "any of various small animals or insects that are pests", a super crab that can rip through small armies hardly qualifies as a "pest"

Also, it probably wouldn't run, unless it was about to die anyway. Anyone who has read Richard Dawkins book The selfish Gene knows that the most effect survival strategy for just about all animals is to attack intruders. Especially intruders that appear much weaker than it. So the "Behold, scary fire!!!!" technique would probably fail.

Saph
2007-06-26, 07:54 PM
I've noticed that some types of enemies are generally tougher than their CR indicates, and some are generally weaker.

Grapplers are at the top of the "tougher" list, especially when they're advanced in size to Huge. We had a similar battle in our last campaign against a Huge Advanced Fiendish Assassin Vine. Freaking nightmare to fight. Only one attack, but it had a 40-foot reach and also had immunity to crits (negating the rogue), immunity to mind-affecting things (negating the enchanter), energy resistance (negating the evoker), spell resistance (semi-negating all the spellcasters), and blindsight (just in case you were thinking of using invisibility or blinding spells). That left physical attacks, which required getting through its entangle field, its huge reach, and its ridiculous grapple modifier. It was CR 7, but killed one member of our 5-person level 6 party and probably should have killed more.

In theory grappling monsters are supposed to be balanced by being vulnerable while they're grappling, but the combination of attack damage, constrict damage, and multiple attacks can usually drop a PC to negative HP in 1-2 rounds easily. About the only reliable way to deal with them is to stay out of reach, which isn't a good choice if it's already grabbed one of the PCs and is in the process of squishing him into jelly.

- Saph

Zaeron
2007-06-26, 07:56 PM
The biggest problem with the crab itself is the grapple. The crab is fine as long as no PC engages it in melee. In a melee heavy party the crab is ridiculously overpowered.

However, Fax, I think your biggest problem here was that your party has a lot of ECL in it. Most of those characters, if I guess right, actually have around 5 class levels, correct?

The biggest problem with parties with a lot of ECL is that they easily chew through lower level enemies, but they don't usually have enough hp/spell levels/feats to handle the higher level enemies that are balanced assuming you have access to, say, 4th level spells.

at least, that's my opinion on it. But speaking as someone who plays a lot of melee characters, any time your fighter needs a natural 20 to win a grapple check against the creature, you shouldn't use the creature. Nothing kills a fighter faster than getting grappled. Actually, pretty much nothing kills anybody faster than a creature that can grapple and constrict/swallow whole/etc.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-26, 08:01 PM
However, Fax, I think your biggest problem here was that your party has a lot of ECL in it. Most of those characters, if I guess right, actually have around 5 class levels, correct?

Two have seven class levels, four have six and one LA, and one has three plus two RHD plus two LA.

martyboy74
2007-06-26, 08:06 PM
Two have seven class levels, four have six and one LA, and one has three plus two RHD plus two LA.

I'm guessing that the Catfolk and Barbarian were both fairly useless? After all, one of the reach monkey's few weaknesses is a better reach monkey.

Corolinth
2007-06-26, 08:12 PM
I disagree entirely that a Crab should be Animal. It's an Arthropod (the same group as insects and spiders), all of which are classed as Vermin.What kingdom are they all in? But this is leading me towards a separate, and somewhat superficial gripe regarding the existence of the vermin classification in the first place. That's cool, though. I see where you're coming from.


And that there may lie the key as to why the crab doesn't flee. Isn't an animals instinct to protect their nests/offspring to the death?If it's got young, sure. Although I think part of the problem is that I'm not explaining my point clearly.

Animals that are terrified and/or in pain do not behave like rational human beings do. They certainly do not behave like a lot of DMs want to run creature encounters. Many DMs just move creatures around the board doing whatever they feel is most effective, with little regard to how intelligent the creature is.

Think chess. A chessmaster will stare at the board and plan things out several moves in advance before he picks up a piece. He already knows every move you're going to make in response to his, and has the game worked out all the way through checkmate. This is your great wyrm gold dragon. A moderately skilled chess player will look for ways to capture pieces. A novice panics because he's lost his bishop, gets distracted trying to even the odds, and doesn't even notice that he's just moved his queen into a trap. A four year-old just picks up pieces and sets them down in random places. This is your zombie.

The natural tendency of any DM is to run monsters as if they're all as smart as we are. They're not. Many are nowhere near that smart. Some, such as dragons, are a good deal smarter. Sometimes we notice this and correct our strategies. Sometimes we do not.

So here you have the crab grappling a character and threatening to kill it. A loud ghost sound cast to it's right could very realistically spook the creature into dropping the character, and cause it to scuttle over to the side of its lair. A flaming sphere can make the crab back away, not because it's dangerous and deals a lot of damage, but because animals are afraid of fire. It doesn't flee its lair, it just moves to the other side away from the fire. Nevermind that it could have pressed the attack and killed a PC.

The way you combat this crab is, first of all, get the hell out of its lair. Hold it at bay with fire, spook it to the corner of it's lair with a loud bang, do something to get it off you for a round while you all leave the lair. Second, you spread out so that it can't get all of you at once. Third, outsmart it. Do what humans do best. We are pack animals like wolves. We work in teams. Start communicating and working out a plan. Crabs don't speak common, so you don't have to worry about it hearing you. Run around, distract it, confuse it, hide behind stuff, set stuff on fire, and bring that big momma down. The thing is, this tactic only works if your DM is running the creature to have the dim intellect it's supposed to have. A lot of the time, the DM just forgets that.

Zaeron
2007-06-26, 08:14 PM
I'm guessing that the Catfolk and Barbarian were both fairly useless? After all, one of the reach monkey's few weaknesses is a better reach monkey.

If I had to guess, I'd imagine anyone within 15 feet of it was pretty useless. :smallwink:

But okay, thanks, Fax. I didn't know a lot of those races. That isn't quite as bad as I'd thought.

One of the things that makes grappling monsters especially nasty is that per rules, if the monster is grappling with a player, any attacks into the grapple have an even chance of hitting any participants. An archer shooting into a grapple when the crab has two PCs constricted has only a 33% chance of actually hitting the crab, and a 67% chance of assisting the crab in ushering one of the PCs into an even earlier grave.

I might be wrong on grappling rules, but I've faced similar creatures to this one before (except that one had us in four feet of water and drowned us as it throttled us, but anyway..) And the DM in that encounter ruled that any arrows our archer fired at the monster would risk hitting the grappled PCs. I'm pretty sure he cited the PHB on it.

GoblinJTHM
2007-06-26, 08:14 PM
Don't run single monster encounters agianst large parties. Ever. (Well unless the plot really demands it.)

In fact, don't run large parites agianst less then four enimies, unless your willing to let someone die.

How do you think they would have faired with two CR 5 crabs? Or even better four CR 3 crabs?

in keeping with this, how is line is the crab with CR8 when you run it against a lvl 11 or 12 party?

TheOOB
2007-06-26, 08:18 PM
And this is why CR is a guideline and should always be taken with a grain of salt. Even if the creature was balanced for it's CR, which its not, some groups are good agienst certain creatures, and some groups are poor agienst the same ones.

martyboy74
2007-06-26, 08:23 PM
in keeping with this, how is line is the crab with CR8 when you run it against a lvl 11 or 12 party?

It would get mauled faceing a level 11 party. The wizard/cleric drops a Repulsion/Antilife Shell, and then the wizard drops an Cloudkill or two. Done.

Ditto
2007-06-26, 08:31 PM
I agree, Fax, that thing is insane. I played through that as one of five Lvl6s... the creature was obviously played down. I think many things in that dungeon are above and beyond in some cases... I'm running WPM right now with 4 ECL 7s, and they're at the end of the East branch. Ctenmiir should absolutely be handing their asses to them, but I'm being gentle. DMing heartlessly is tough to do!

Jack Mann
2007-06-26, 08:32 PM
Lessee. All ECL 7.

Goliath Crusader (charger/tank)

Actually, as a note, I was ECL 5 (after LA buy-back).


What kingdom are they all in? But this is leading me towards a separate, and somewhat superficial gripe regarding the existence of the vermin classification in the first place. That's cool, though. I see where you're coming from.

What kingdom are humans in? What about orcs? How about owlbears?

Realistically, all enemies except plants, constructs, undead, and possibly some aberrations should be animals. Animal means something different in D&D than it does in biology. Animal is also used somewhat differently in everyday conversation than it is in biology (since people typically don't think of humans when they think of animals).

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-26, 08:36 PM
It would get mauled faceing a level 11 party. The wizard/cleric drops a Repulsion/Antilife Shell, and then the wizard drops an Cloudkill or two. Done.

Except that if the wizard drops all those spells, the CR 8 creature is acting like a CR 9-10 creature (remember, CR is -supposedly- a measure of how much resources the encounter will use up before being defeated).

Corolinth
2007-06-26, 08:40 PM
So does vermin. In the real world, vermin includes such pests as rabbits, squirrels, and rats. But again, we're starting to get into a more superficial complaint I have with the way in which D&D classifies certain types of creatures, and is a bit of a derail to the thread.

TheJhereg
2007-06-26, 08:40 PM
Warning: Coarse language: A much earlier discussion of Giant Crabs, on another forum... (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=433)

Their conclusion, in brief, was that giant crabs destroy third-level parties even worse than advanced giant crabs destroy eighth level parties.

Brother_Franklin
2007-06-26, 08:44 PM
Whoops I meant two CR 6 crabs or four CR 4. The idea being that all of these are EL 8, but only the single monster has insta-death.

And as Skjadbakka was begining to say, even four of these CR 8 monstrosities would probabably just be a few expended spells for a party of 7 or so level 11 guys.

Although the confined space might increase the EL. And yeah ECL tends to kill people. I agree with that too.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-06-26, 08:55 PM
Speaking as the squishy, squishy Changeling Rogue who was brought to 8hp by this bad boy after a nasty bit of tactical mis-movement (failed to take into account that damn crab's reach) I heartily concur with the assessment that it darn well isn't CR 8.

Admittedly, I did end up killing it, but that was basically luck at work (again); I would have been doornail material were it not for a xygag-blessed natural 20 to break the grapple.

In my opinion, either the constrict damage should be severely reduced, constriction should require more of an opportunity cost, or grappling capabilities should raise CR more than they presently do.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-26, 08:57 PM
I'm guessing that the Catfolk and Barbarian were both fairly useless? After all, one of the reach monkey's few weaknesses is a better reach monkey.

Actually, the reachmonkey actually had better reach than the crab: 20'.

The catfolk did an amazing save: she readied an action to transposition herself into the crab's claws after it grabbed someone, then used dimension door to get herself out. That was pretty sweet.

Most of the damage to the crab came from the reachmonkey and from the swordsage, though the killing blow came from the warblade/rogue.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-26, 09:04 PM
You have to make a grapple check to get out of a grapple, and for reasons of sanity I would say the monster could not use iterative attacks after choosing to use it's natural weapons as primary attacks. Normally a monster could take you in a single appendage at -20, which would allow it to make it's other attacks on you ... but seeing as how constrict is double claw damage in this case I think the flavor is that it grasps you in both claws anyway.

So only claw + constrict damage on the first round ... certain death the next.

Roland St. Jude
2007-06-26, 09:09 PM
Actually, the reachmonkey actually had better reach than the crab: 20'.

The catfolk did an amazing save: she readied an action to transposition herself into the crab's claws after it grabbed someone, then used dimension door to get herself out. That was pretty sweet.

Most of the damage to the crab came from the reachmonkey and from the swordsage, though the killing blow came from the warblade/rogue.

First, I agree it's a tough CR 8. It's the classic too-swingy encounter in that it can one-hit most ECL 8 characters. It's one of those things that is defeatable but almost certainly going to kill at least one character. Second, it was somewhat aided by the terrain. Trapped in a dome with boiling water walls.

That said, it could have gone differently. For some reason, we blundered into the room, one of our non-sneaky types got in front of or even with our sneaky-types. Then our scout types acted like tanks. Then the reach-monkey, who is also probably the main tank, chose reaching over tanking. No one suggested or tried to retreat and use ranged attacks. (Part of this is, I think, due to the abundance of martial adepts who, despite whatever role they play in the party, are somewhat locked into doing melee if they want to use their cool powers.) Damage was dealt the old-fashioned way, and the catfolk did a neat transposition trick, and that was it. But if someone had gotten snapped in half, I imagine it would have changed things dramatically. People would have fallen back, the reachmonkey would have waded into tank, etc.

I thought it was quite fun, really, and felt like we defeated it using a combination of old school hacking and magical trickery. Still, knowing you were holding it back, I'd be very interested to do it again, without you holding back. As an exercise, I mean. (I'm not *really* inviting a TPK just for the sake of research! :smallsmile: )

Jack Mann
2007-06-26, 09:29 PM
So does vermin. In the real world, vermin includes such pests as rabbits, squirrels, and rats. But again, we're starting to get into a more superficial complaint I have with the way in which D&D classifies certain types of creatures, and is a bit of a derail to the thread.

Good point. To keep from derailing the thread, I started a new thread to continue the discussion here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48905).

Fax Celestis
2007-06-26, 11:18 PM
I thought it was quite fun, really, and felt like we defeated it using a combination of old school hacking and magical trickery. Still, knowing you were holding it back, I'd be very interested to do it again, without you holding back. As an exercise, I mean. (I'm not *really* inviting a TPK just for the sake of research! :smallsmile: )

I wasn't holding back. I didn't know that Constrict worked that way until I looked it up in the MM later.

I think the crab's reach coupled with it's cunning use of 5' steps was probably a bit more intelligent than it should have been, but it made a good encounter. The sad part was how quickly you guys took down the CR 12 ranger/rogue/assassin who was with him.

skywalker
2007-06-27, 01:14 AM
It couldn't have taken it's full attack against a character it had grappled. It doesn't need to, though, if it's constricting.

Is there confusion as to whether the thing could take it's full attack while grappling? Obviously, it would be hard to take the full attack against something you were already grappling, but it certainly COULD. And there's *no* reason why it couldn't attack with one claw, hold a character in the other, and then constrict that character as part of the full attack. Huge monsters in enclosed spaces are nasty.


Fax, have you run any of those other adventures? As far as I can tell, they're all CR'd a little too high for the average party. It seems like they were created with the highly optimized party in mind. Of the three I've played, 1 was a TPK, 1 was a half-PK that the two remaining PCs walked out on, and the third was White Plume, where having a knight(and the DM's lack of understanding of knight's challenge) saved us from going totally splat when retrieving Whelm. So in my opinion, Wizard's threw some serious challenges out there in these "updated classics," if you will.

EDIT: If it were me, I would've said, draw the monster towards us, dimension door'ed to the chest, dimension door'ed back outta the bubble, and called it an adventure for the night. The intro did say to use your head.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-27, 02:32 AM
There's several ways to have taken out this crab with an ECL 8 party.

First, it had a hundred hit points. That's a lot. It dishes out some insane damage in melee too. That's something tough to avoid while dishing out aforementioned hundred hit points of damage.

However,

It has a craptastic reflex and will save. Granted, it's immune to mind-affecting, so the will save thing isn't so good, but can still be taken advantage of.

Now, your party's problem is that they're melee-heavy, and no real Batman. Their arcane might is a utility/divination sorcerer and their only divine caster was the Favored Soul. That cuts out a LOT of options. A single Grease could have saved the party with the crab's abysmal Reflex save. Heck, Black Tentacles or Enervation would have been nice as well. At Caster level 7, you get a second shot with Scorching Ray, each one doing 4d6, vs the touch attack of 8... 8d6 isn't bad damage from a 2nd level spell. That'll do, on average, about a quarter of it's maximum hit points. Couple of those and it's starting to get seriously hurt.

If your sorcerer took anything like Slow, it's will save is abysmal, and it ISN'T a mind-affecting spell. Move OR attack buddy... heck, even a Grease would have been really handy to deal with it. What kind of utility did he have?

Likewise, a Cleric could have been doing things like Bestow Curse to give it a 50% chance of doing exactly nothing for a round.

This is a guy you don't take down by tanking... he's specifically built to be an anti-tank. You use ranged touch attacks to take this bugger down from outside melee range.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-06-27, 02:41 AM
Fax, I know it seems strong for the CR 8 abominable Crap, but think about the wonderful seafood buffet that can come from such nasty (read: nice) claws. :smallwink:

*MMMMMMM*



I relize that what I am saying is in a grapple it should only get 1 "Attack" becuase as I read it getting any extra attacks in a grapple only happens if your BaB provides for more. Feel free to say otherwise.


Everyone gets extra attacks in a grapple from having a high enough BAB, even if they do not normally use a weapon that allows for iterative attacks.

The rules for grappling and their related abilities are one of the most confusing parts of the current rules set, especially in relation to grappling monsters.
IMHO they need a major overhaul, which would have been much more useful than the poorly implemented errata on polymorph (Polymorph Purge).

Alveanerle
2007-06-27, 02:47 AM
To support Lord Silvanos with a handy reference:



Courtesy of WoTC FAQ[B]

[B]How many attacks does a creature with multiple
natural weapons get while it’s grappling? How many
grapple checks can it make in a round?

Under normal circumstances, a creature can can attack with
only one of its natural weapons while grappling (and it takes a
–4 penalty on such attacks; PH 156). A grappling dire bear can
attack with either a claw or its bite.
The rake special attack gives the creature “two additional
claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe” (and
which don’t take the normal –4 penalty to such attacks; MM
314).
A creature that chooses to make grapple checks in place of
attacks—that is, to damage its opponent, escape from the
grapple, move, pin its opponent, or use its opponent’s
weapon—is allowed one grapple check for every attack that its
base attack bonus would allow (even if it doesn’t normally
make multiple attacks in this manner). These attacks deal
damage as an unarmed strike made by a creature of that size
(1d3 for Medium, 1d4 for Large, 1d6 for Huge, and so forth,
plus its Strength modifier).
A creature with BAB +0 to +5 may make one grapple
check in place of an attack, BAB +6 to +10 two, BAB +11 to
+15 three, and BAB +16 to +20 four. The dire bear, for
example, may make two grapple checks in place of attacks,
thanks to its base attack bonus of +9: one using its full BAB
and the second using its BAB –5.

Alveanerle
2007-06-27, 03:19 AM
I'll try to summarize the crab's grapple tactics.
Please correct me if i am wrong.

Option A)
Hit a foe with one or two claws, make a grapple check at +32, constrict it (both claws occupied, full "double normal" constrict damage due to both claws involved)

Option B)
Hit two different opponents with each claw, make separate grapple checks at +12 (constrict damage dice halved - equal to normal claw damage).

Option C)
Hit with one claw, grab opponent with only this claw at +12, make single claw constrict, then hit the opponent with the second claw (opponent denied his dex bonus to ac - he is grappling with the OTHER claw), optionaly make second grapple/constrict.

AtomicKitKat
2007-06-27, 04:11 AM
The base crab looks a lot like that Giant Crayfish from the ToEE CRPG. Except the crayfish in the game never actually needed to grapple. A couple of snaps from those nasty pincers would take down any character under ECL 5. Coupled with its 30+ HP, it was one nasty sucker.

That being said, the limited mobility of the environment should probably have raised it to EL 10.

Zincorium
2007-06-27, 04:34 AM
It seems to me the crab is what used to be called a 'closet troll', a monster that while normally difficult, becomes a possible TPK in confined spaces. The encounter was difficult, yeah, but if it had been in a large, wide open space with multiple levels to fight between, the PCs could have had a fairly easy time of it, especially as the melee reachmonkey could poke at it without fear of reprisal from a good position.

By contrast, imagine this thing at the bottom of a 20' diameter covered pit filled with water, the only entrance at the bottom. It'd easily kill even many lvl 10 parties.

It all goes to show that the CR system requires the DM be good at estimating the real challenge the monster poses to the party, independent of hit dice and special attacks.

The Prince of Cats
2007-06-27, 04:36 AM
The best example I ever found of an under-con (thing with a CR too low for its actual danger-level) would be the WotC adventure called Into the Frozen Wastes. First a remorhaz, then an immoth...

Two under-cons in the same mission? No wonder they give that adventure away for free!

geek_2049
2007-06-27, 04:37 AM
I concur with Sneaky. Batman and Codzila will make it sufficiently weak enough for 7 ECL 7s to destroy it.

Slow, Bestow Curse, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Greese, Freedom of Movement, Glitterdust, Repel Vermin, Spike Stones, Haste, Silent Image, Enlarge Person, Summonings, Invisibility, Control Water, etc.

Jack Mann
2007-06-27, 04:44 AM
To be fair, as Roland implied, we could have beaten it fairly easily if we'd pulled back and shot the thing full of arrows. It couldn't have reached us while we shot it.

Unfortunately, it's hard to suggest a retreat when you're a reckless goliath warrior with a limited sense of self-preservation. It didn't seem in character.

The Prince of Cats
2007-06-27, 04:53 AM
To be fair, as Roland implied, we could have beaten it fairly easily if we'd pulled back and shot the thing full of arrows. It couldn't have reached us while we shot it.

Unfortunately, it's hard to suggest a retreat when you're a reckless goliath warrior with a limited sense of self-preservation. It didn't seem in character.
CRs never take into account the people who will be fighting them. Wizards especially fall into the 'all or nothing' camp when fighting. One day they will prepare a fireball and face a red dragon, but the next day they will prepare a single-target high-damage spell and get attacked by a horde of kobolds...

That said, I cannot imagine facing that crab. It is just nasty...

Mike_Lemmer
2007-06-27, 06:00 AM
To be fair, as Roland implied, we could have beaten it fairly easily if we'd pulled back and shot the thing full of arrows. It couldn't have reached us while we shot it.

Unfortunately, it's hard to suggest a retreat when you're a reckless goliath warrior with a limited sense of self-preservation. It didn't seem in character.

Yes, it could have been beaten fairly easily if we used perfect tactics from round one. You could easily beat a lot of battles that way. But an encounter should not start making one-round kills from sheer damage if you don't execute it perfectly from the start.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the crab was allied with a high-level hunter. Most of our party is melee combatants. Having no knowledge of the sheer badassness of the crab, running into the crab's threat zone to take out the hunter (that caused 30 ranged damage to your monk) was a valid tactic. It may be a giant crab, but it's still a crab; can we be blamed for assuming it doesn't cause an average 60+ damage per round?

Roland St. Jude
2007-06-27, 08:37 AM
... It may be a giant crab, but it's still a crab; can we be blamed for assuming it doesn't cause an average 60+ damage per round?

If I say yes, does that make me a jerk? :smallamused:

I do have a few comments since my last one, though. First, for the record, I advocated better tactics, but not necessarily pelting with arrows. Strategic pull back would be a nice start (at least for everyone but the goliath-charger-type!) and I suppose we'd try arrows first. But at least we would have been out of range of claws.

Second, in our defense, we did get drawn in by the presence of a CR 12 humanoid who was apparently quite dangerous. If if had just been the crab, we probably would have approached more warily, but it was pretty clear that the humanoid was a ranged threat. But we stepped in and took down the hunter-guy with shocking speed. So on the whole it was a pretty balanced encounter a CR 12 went down easily and CR 8 would have been tougher than usual (He wasn't really, due to the less constricting; although someone whose character was close to death may dispute that. I don't know how close they were.)

Third, despite all this talk, we did actually defeat the thing - and in four rounds no less. It may have taken longer and been a bit bloodier, but I'm confident we would have prevailed against the crab even with full constrict rules.

Irreverent Fool
2007-06-27, 09:20 AM
I wasn't holding back. I didn't know that Constrict worked that way until I looked it up in the MM later.

I think the crab's reach coupled with it's cunning use of 5' steps was probably a bit more intelligent than it should have been, but it made a good encounter. The sad part was how quickly you guys took down the CR 12 ranger/rogue/assassin who was with him.

Watch some nature videos. Crabs will use their superior reach and small steps to pick at much larger (wounded) prey.

lord_khaine
2007-06-27, 10:07 AM
hmm, im not really sure the crab should have gotten more than 1 constrict attack per round, unless it tries to grapple with just its claw, and that gives a -20 penalty.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-06-27, 10:22 AM
Third, despite all this talk, we did actually defeat the thing - and in four rounds no less. It may have taken longer and been a bit bloodier, but I'm confident we would have prevailed against the crab even with full constrict rules.

Fax calculated the average damage. Eoin, the first one grabbed, would've been crushed to death with a little more than minimum damage from that. Kella, the second one grabbed, would've been crushed to death on average damage per round. Hezret... I don't know, he could probably survive it. I think Bakar was the only one that could stand toe-to-toe with it and reasonably survive.

Plus Fax ruled it was holding them 15' in the air, so healing them in its grip would've been near impossible.

I think if we had used the full Constrict rules, 2 party members would be dead within 2 rounds.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-27, 10:24 AM
I didn't give it more than one constrict a round. I only gave it one grapple a round too. Basically, it's attack pattern looked like this: Claw/Claw/Grapple.

It should have been Claw/Grapple+Constrict/Claw/Grapple+Constrict

mneme
2007-06-27, 10:33 AM
Hmm. First, yeah, it's proabbly under-CRed, especially given circumstance.

That said, it seems like it's designed with a specfic set of tactics in mind -- huge constricting monsters (like this thing and the giant squid) aren't intended to go into full grapple mode against teensy opponents; instead, they should use realistic tactics (ie, grapple at -20 with claws only, -not- an unmodified grapple). In theory, the thing should be doing a grapple check at +12, against two people, not two checks against the same person at +32. Actually, reading the rules here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab), I'd say its options are:

1. An attack at +18 against one person, followed by a grapple at +32, followed by constrict damage. If this is successful, it's done -- it's grappled, at least momentarily, so it forfeits its other attacks. (See the "grappled" state). Of course, this critter's constrict damage seems to be off the charts, which is another flaw.

or

2. An attack at +18 against one target, followed by a grapple at +12. If -this- succeeds, it has grappled this person but is not itself grappled -- so it can make another one of these attacks against someone else (the SRD specifically says "another opponent" not "any opponent"). Again, this is probably still way too much if you keep the grappled damage at 2*claw damage, rather than (as seems intended, and as was used for the original critter, claw damage + 1.5*str bonus).

Charity
2007-06-27, 10:40 AM
Hurmph,
We recently (as a 6/7th level party) got TPKed by two of these nasties (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/spectre.htm)
I'd have rather had the crab, at least your dead fellows wern't joining in on crabs side, and the crab can't fly through walls at 80'.

Zephyros
2007-06-27, 10:45 AM
Thread's too damn long.. Anyway my 5cents...

I had the same problem when I literally :smallbiggrin: tentacle raped a high-leveled party with a giant squid. The thing I believe we r doing wrong is that to get that awesome grapple modifier the little beastie has to use all its attacking limbs. To grapple with only one limb would have a penalty imposed on the roll. That way the whole issue would be more ballanced. Otherwise every multi-attacking monster with grapple could just grapple the whole party at the start of its turn and then ggnorebbthx :smalleek: .

Arbitrarity
2007-06-27, 10:46 AM
Stick a few spectres in a city, and everyone WILL die.


Suddenly, an enormous mass of translucent white figures, their faces twisted in agony, float through the walls towards you. Roll initiative.

What's your touch AC? Ok, so that's 8+13, that's 21. Oh. You take 2 negative levels. Next one's turn.

Whaddaya mean that was too hard? It was one spectre, who killed a bunch of commoners!

ImperiousLeader
2007-06-27, 11:00 AM
I concur with Sneaky. Batman and Codzila will make it sufficiently weak enough for 7 ECL 7s to destroy it.

Slow, Bestow Curse, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Greese, Freedom of Movement, Glitterdust, Repel Vermin, Spike Stones, Haste, Silent Image, Enlarge Person, Summonings, Invisibility, Control Water, etc.

Agreed. An Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement would do anywhere from a 6 to 13 penalty to STR, which would have been a solid reduction to the crab's attack and damage.

I'm glad you mentionned Silent Image. Too many times I hear the idea that mindless = immune to illusions.

I'd also point out that a Psion or Wilder with Ego Whip could one-shot the beast.

Fixer
2007-06-27, 11:07 AM
The creature might be CR 8 but the encounter is a 10. The crab has a big advantage (being able to reach nearly everywhere the characters can go) and the PCs are at a disadvantage (unable to use many kinds of mobility abilites to avoid attack).

You were not, however, dealing as much damage as you seem to have been allowing it.

Attack (normal damage)
Grapple attempt (no damage from just this, doing damage requires you take an ACTION to grapple)
Constriction damage (damage from this).

Once the creature had grappled something, it should be considered both prone and grappled, thereby giving everyone bonuses to hit it and denying it Dex bonus, giving sneak attackers great chances to take it down. When it killed whatever it had grappled, it would have provoked AoO by 'getting up' and only gotten one attack afterwards.


Also, if you read the creature's tactics, it doesn't do what you had it do. It says,
A monstrous crab is straightforward in combat. It lumbers forth toward the nearest target and attacks with its claws. Once a monstrous crab has a morsel or creature in each claw, it retreats into the water to feed.So it should not have been making the normal attacks, it should have been making grapple attempts at -20 to still be able to move afterwards and not be considered grappled. This would have evened things out far more in the fight.

The Valiant Turtle
2007-06-27, 11:08 AM
I'll have to take a closer look at this thing sometime, but I think Mneme is right regarding it's options. It can't grapple multiple opponents easily, and if it does end up in a grappled state, it has all the usual limitations (among them no AoO's I believe, which limits the ability to abuse it's reach).

I'd post this thing in the RAW thread and see what the people there think of it's options. It does seem a bit over-powered to me, but there are spells that can really minimize it's effectiveness.

Dizlag
2007-06-27, 11:09 AM
Just to put in my 2cp.

mneme has it correct.

1) Attack with one claw at +18 (damage 2d6+8), then grapples at +32 (constricts for 4d6+8 damage). (Yes, it's just the base claw damage that gets doubled for a constrict, not the Str bonus.)

or 2) Attack with one claw at +18 (damage 2d6+8), grapple at +12 (-20 on all grapple checks for holding onto an attacker plus constrict (4d6+8) to get the second claw attack). Make a second claw attack at +18 (damage 2d6+8), grapple at +12 (constrict for another 4d6+8).

So, it's either 6d6+16 at +18 attack / +32 grapple OR two attacks at 6d6+16 at +18 attack / +12 grapple. I would say a +12 grapple check is not very hard to beat for a 7th level character with a full BAB and Str mod of +3. You'll just have to roll 2 higher than the DM to win.

If I were DMing an encounter with this creature (which I will be now! LOL), I would use method 1) to start with. And if my players close in for a full attack, then I would use method 2) after that.

Dizlag

EDIT: simul-ninja'd again! curses! =)

PinkysBrain
2007-06-27, 11:13 AM
Is there confusion as to whether the thing could take it's full attack while grappling?
Kind of. It's generally not done to make iterative melee weapon attacks after making natural attacks as your primary attacks, under normal circumstances if you use your iterative attacks AND natural attacks the natural attacks are used secondary.

So, no ... there is no confusion about if it could make iterative grapple checks based on high BAB in the round after using improved grab, but to allow it in the same round round is both unbalanced and completely disconnected to the normal way of combining iterative attacks with natural attacks.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-27, 11:25 AM
So, no ... there is no confusion about if it could make iterative grapple checks based on high BAB in the round after using improved grab, but to allow it in the same round round is both unbalanced and completely disconnected to the normal way of combining iterative attacks with natural attacks.

...it doesn't get iteratives.

lukelightning
2007-06-27, 11:50 AM
...it doesn't get iteratives.

What if it was somehow weilding a weapon, like a great big club. Would it get iteratives with it?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-06-27, 12:06 PM
It gets iterative attacks with unarmed strikes or iterative grapple checks from a high BAB.

If it could somehow use a weapon it would get iterative attacks with that.

brian c
2007-06-27, 12:43 PM
It gets iterative attacks with unarmed strikes or iterative grapple checks from a high BAB.

If it could somehow use a weapon it would get iterative attacks with that.

But since it has natural weapons which are not unarmed strikes (as opposed to how a monk's are), how would it even do an "unarmed strike" ? Headbutt? Kick?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-06-27, 12:50 PM
But since it has natural weapons which are not unarmed strikes (as opposed to how a monk's are), how would it even do an "unarmed strike" ? Headbutt? Kick?

Exactly like that.


Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts...

LotharBot
2007-06-27, 01:00 PM
The creature might be CR 8 but the encounter is a 10. The crab has a big advantage (being able to reach nearly everywhere the characters can go) and the PCs are at a disadvantage (unable to use many kinds of mobility abilites to avoid attack).

Now that more information has come out, it seems the encounter was EL 13 or 14 -- the crab was tanking for a ranger/rogue/assassin that was CR 12 on his own.

That explains a lot of it. If the party spends a round dealing with the other guy while the crab is taking shots at them, that makes it seem a bit tougher than it would've been on its own. If the party got itself out of position when fighting the other guy (people getting in reach of the crab who normally wouldn't, rogues not in their normal flanking positions, etc.) that makes it seen even tougher. And if the room was set up to amplify the crab's natural advantages, that makes it legitimately tougher.

And, of course, if Dizlag is correct, misplaying the grapple/constrict rules would have made the crab seem much tougher.

Suggestion for the OP: replay the encounter as just the party vs. the crab (no assassin), given the grapple/constrict rules as posted by Dizlag and others. I don't think it'll be as bad as it seemed.

PinkysBrain
2007-06-27, 01:13 PM
...it doesn't get iteratives.
A creature in a full body grapple making a full attack can get extra grapple checks from high BAB regardless from his normal attack pattern. Only natural attacks have a limitation on gaining extra attacks from high BAB.

Chris_Chandler
2007-06-27, 01:30 PM
Okay - I've read through the discussion. CR 8 is completely viable. The CR isn't really the issue, here. It was a simple discussion of tactical choice.

The party, seeing that there was a "fleeing" enemy of some import, pursued him, and saw that he was still a threat, opted not to withdraw when presented with another, new opponent.

Would it have served the party to use a different approach against the crab? Sure, but as the players have pointed out, there was the RP consideration to take into account, as well as what they considered the primary threat?

A hydra is a melee threat, so you stay away from a hydra, unless forced to enter melee. The same clearly holds true with this crab. What other tools did it have other than "grab what's in reach and tear it apart"? It isn't a difficult thing to handle a melee-only creature when you use the proper strategy. The party actually considered, and decided against the best strategy, going with a much more dangerous approach.

Do we approach the thing with claws the size of cattle?

No. No we don't. We shoot it, misdirect it, weaken it, but we stay away from it just like any big melee threat - It's why tanks can get frustrated if they have no other tools besides tanking. The party decided to, despite their better judgement, engage the creature on it's own terms. They knew they were making a choice that was dangerous. That choice has nothing to do with the CR of the monster. They played to the monster's specific strengths. Even with the confines of the room (Yes, WPM is rife with "stacked" encounters), there was tactical flexibility enough to avoid the dangerous choice. The combination of another enemy combatant and the RP considerations (Crusaders and other ToB melee-wizards opting for the bow-shot? I think not) forced the party to make a sub-par choice.

That, actually, is the job of the villain - force the party to make bad decisions. That bad decision, by the way, only meant that they won the encounter with no losses in 4 rounds. Why is this an issue, exactly?

Mike_Lemmer
2007-06-27, 02:53 PM
Because we won the encounter in 4 rounds with no losses only because the constriction rules weren't applied properly (and we had some lucky rolls & late clever tactics). Had the constriction rules been applied properly, the first full-round attack the crab did would've had a good (70-90%) chance of outright killing the first combatant in range. Even a single attack would've been trouble, knocking our tanks down to half-health and putting them in a grapple they can't escape from (without a nat 20).

Even backing up and filling it with arrow fire wouldn't work very long. It could charge through its entrance with a speed equal to ours; I would guess 3-4 rounds, max, before it finally reached someone and started doing killing blows. It would not be dead from sub-par ranged attacks by then.

Finally, although kiting is a valid tactic, it should not be the only way to win a battle without massive losses, playing by the rules.

lukelightning
2007-06-27, 03:22 PM
I dunno...checking out the list of CR 8 monsters in the MM there are a lot of bruisers, e.g. the Athach: 133 hp, 4 attacks, poison, hurled boulders... pretty nasty!

Corolinth
2007-06-27, 03:24 PM
The fact that you all walked straight in to a trap does not mean that the creature is a higher challenge rating.

The fact that you have an extremely one-sided party with no versatility does not mean that the creature is a higher challenge rating.

The fact that someone chose to go balls to the wall because by god he's going to roleplay that goliath charger who wouldn't back off to fight smart does not make this creature a higher challenge rating.

The fact that you all chose to jump in and help him, rather than leave him to the obvious result of his bad decision while you all worked out a better tactic does not make this creature a higher challenge rating.

This crab is beatable by a level 8 party fairly handily, and the crab actually needs a brutal constrict like that in order to be a balanced foe. You beat a big bruiser like this by using skirmish tactics, and using the opponent's low intelligence to your advantage.

Chris_Chandler
2007-06-27, 03:29 PM
Sure, the constriction rules were misapplied. That may have caused a casualty, but no more than that.

Not once did I suggest that kiting or any other "enter your specific uber-tactic here" was "the" answer (I agree - one-answer problems are awful). I am arguing, rather, that tanking was not the answer. You tank the bigger tank, you lose. You actually tanked the bigger tank, and didn't lose, but actually won decisively. Even with the appropriate rules utilized for the constriction, it would have still been a victory, if with a potential casualty, using the "hit it with the stick 'til it's dead" tactic agreed upon by the party.

You actually don't know if arrow fire, or any other tactic would have worked - your party never tried it in this instance. Why would it have charged you? That's supposition and hindsight. It's a huge creature - are you telling me that the entire area, from lair to entryway (and then further back) held no chokepoints, poor terrain, or other obstacles for huge creature? Really?



Your choices made the battle harder, not the creature. The creature is a "stay away from this one" creature.

Diggorian
2007-06-27, 03:45 PM
Hm, the more I read the more it seems to me the crab isnt under-CRed.

Assuming that LA's of the PCs are worth effective levels, as the rules say, seven with average party level 7 vs CR 8 melee monster with CR12 ranged expert is an "Overpowering". Misusing the constrict may have effectiveley brought that risk category down a bit, but still dead PC's are to be expected in this scenario.

Let's consider king crab going against the heros solo. Seven lvl.7's is equivalent to a 8th-9th party (more than half as many more than the standard 4 person group). Big HP tank goes in first and is likely grabbed for 2d6+8 from the hit followed by chitin snuggles of the constriction for another 4d6+8, average 37.

All other party closes on crab for melee easily since AoO is gone now. With a thiefy BAB of +6 and a decent ability mod of +2, +8 hit's AC 22 35% of the time with augmented odds by multiple attackers and not counting any buffs in effect. If you had a warlock, sizzling seafood would be definate.

Crabs proper turn, it does 4d6+8 again then attacks with off-claw for 4d6+8 again, 44 more on average. 81 total on matyr tank may kill'em. But wait! Catfolk MVP does the switcheroo, hopefully after the first constrict, and takes the second claw worth for average 22. If lives Dim. Doors out.
Cleric heals tank some, whom goes back in to get grappled, or may get luckly to bring a solid hit in, while catfolk gets healed in prep for the switch next time.

If everyone besides the Healer and catgirl take a turn in the claws the damage is spread thinly. So two characters keep the claws busy, one character heals/buffs the first two, four characters doing steady round by round damage.

Seems doable to me, specifically easy if handled properly. Even if one PC get's killed, that's 1/7th of the party resources 14% lost right? :smallamused:

Xian
2007-06-27, 03:59 PM
Did anyone post "attack its weak point for massive damage"?

In a pinch, a method that is sure to even take out the Tarrasque you need:

Baleful Polymorph
Bag of Holding
A knife

I think you can figure out what to do.

martyboy74
2007-06-27, 04:20 PM
Did anyone post "attack its weak point for massive damage"?

In a pinch, a method that is sure to even take out the Tarrasque you need:

Baleful Polymorph
Bag of Holding
A knife

I think you can figure out what to do.

That happens to be a Fortitude save, which said crab is very good at making. Also, who just has an extra bag of holding on them.

Citizen Joe
2007-06-27, 04:38 PM
Against grapplers ALWAYS bring Freedom of Movement... either a device or spell.

Imrix.
2007-06-27, 04:49 PM
Assuming you know what you'll be fighting.

martyboy74
2007-06-27, 04:55 PM
Against grapplers ALWAYS bring Freedom of Movement... either a device or spell.

None of them were high enough level to cast it, and an magic item of Freedom of Movement would be a ridiculously large part of their WBL.

goat
2007-06-27, 05:02 PM
Even if one PC get's killed, that's 1/7th of the party resources 14% lost right? :smallamused:

Do you work in HR?

asqwasqw
2007-06-27, 05:13 PM
Do you work in HR?

Heh. But I think that the crab was fair, it just wasn't fought properly.

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-27, 05:16 PM
The fact that you all walked straight in to a trap does not mean that the creature is a higher challenge rating.

Actually, the DMG lists favorable terrain as a modifier to an encounter's CR.

EDIT- you could argue that you learn more from making a mistake than from always taking the best option.

Reinboom
2007-06-27, 05:26 PM
We didn't know what we would've been facing, repel vermin isn't too sufficient when main casters are sorcerer and favored soul. Unless you have very specific GMs, which is something I don't expect of fax, it is very unlikely one would choose such a spell for a known slot.
As for "Batman", even as a sorcerer which a batman can exist (though obviously no wizard), I don't like it. I don't think a battle should be reliant so heavily on the arcanist as to make the arcanist the sole power in it. As that said, I tend to avoid certain spells. I don't take ray of enfeeblement, stupidity, and even though she has glitterdust — it was only a recent addition and I still am hesitant with thinking of using it; it doesn't feel to the character enough (though I probably should.) I do have (and did use) slow however. The crab got its save though. Also, mind, as the sorcerer, I don't have 4th level spells yet.

I enjoy battles that take teamwork, that make you think, and not just the generic make it easy and move on.

Closer to the topic home, that crab was much more intimidating than the hunter friend. In that situation, I would say it was much more of an ECL 10 in comparison to our party.

Diggorian
2007-06-27, 06:06 PM
Do you work in HR?

No, but I'm equally heartless. All PCs must carry a fully filled out RRD-15 Request for Raise Dead despite Appropriate CR form at the time of death. Forms made illegible by blood saturation will not be accepted; lamination is recommended. :smallannoyed: :smallamused:

For those that still think the crab too high CR, remember that regardless of being mindless any large illusion of a pot of boiling water paired with metal tongs and a bucket of buttery sauce renders them panicked. :smallbiggrin:

Beleriphon
2007-06-27, 06:17 PM
And flight/ranged attacks? When you're inside a 60' wide, 30' tall membrane, fly doesn't do much, particularly when it has a +8 jump mod and 15' reach. Ranged attacks ping off it's AC 22, unless you somehow swing a touch attack at it.

This is one tough sucker.

Well there's its weakness. An armour class of 22. By level 7 a character easily get a better than +12 to hit, giving at least 50% chance of hitting and dealing damage.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-27, 06:37 PM
One way to defeat this thing would be to send in two high HP summoned creatures to fill up its claws, then charge in. Other than that, I don't really see how a level 8 tank has any chance of making it through 10' of threatened space and a +32 grapple check.

Callix
2007-06-27, 06:51 PM
One way to defeat this thing would be to send in two high HP summoned creatures to fill up its claws, then charge in. Other than that, I don't really see how a level 8 tank has any chance of making it through 10' of threatened space and a +32 grapple check.

They don't have to. The transpose/dimdoor allows MMO tanking tactics by rotating tanks, or a dextrous type or two can tumble through while the barbarian takes the heat. 4d6 sneak attacks can bring that sucker down quick enough with a bit of support. The reachmonkey shouldn't've stayed out of reach. He had to take the hits for the team. But the situation was enough to push CR 8 up a few notches.

Citizen Joe
2007-06-27, 08:20 PM
Not exactly RAW but chuck a couple tanglefoot bags at the claws. Creatures have very good closing strength on jaws and claws, but their opening strength sucks. Gum up the claws and all it can do is slam you.