How Savy are Golems?

[killem2]

So, I've been GMing my group in way of the wicked for some time now.


Our evil beings are being tormented by a pair of Moon Dogs. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/moon-dog) They are described by the AP as being extremely cunning beasts that will stop at nothing to stop our evil doers. However, these evil doers have control of a Golem.

Artephius, Alchemical Golem CR 9
XP 6,400
N Large construct
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +0
DEFENSE
AC 23, touch 13, flat-footed 19 (+4 Dex, +10 natural, –1 size)
hp 96 (12d10+30)
Fort +4, Ref +8, Will +4
DR 10/adamantine or bludgeoning; Immune construct traits,
magic
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 slams +19 (2d8+8 plus alchemy)
Ranged bomb +15 (8d6 energy damage)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks alchemy, bombs, splash
TACTICS
During Combat When facing one opponent, Artephius prefers his
powerful slam attacks. Against groups, Artephius will use his
bombs to spread the damage amongst all his enemies. Artephius
is a heartless combatant and has no problem splashing allies
with his bombs.
Morale Artephius is a fearless combatant and fights to the death to
fulfull his master’s commands.
STATISTICS
Str 27, Dex 18, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Base Atk +12; CMB +21; CMD 35
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Alchemy (Ex) When an alchemical golem strikes a foe, the attack
has an additional random effect, chosen from the options below.
The attack can deal 1d6 points of acid, cold, electricity, or
fire damage, cause the target to become sickened (Fortitude
DC 16 negates) for 1d4 rounds, or cause the target to become
entangled (Reflex DC 16 negates) for 1d4 rounds. These save
DCs are Constitution-based.
Bombs (Ex) As a standard action, an alchemical golem can throw
a bomb as a ranged touch attack to a distance of 60 feet (no
range increment). If the attack misses, treat it as a thrown
splash weapon to determine where it lands. Anyone struck
by an alchemical golem’s bomb takes 8d6 points of acid, cold,
electricity, or fire damage (determine type randomly). All creatures
adjacent to the location where the bomb hits take 1d6
points of energy damage of the same type.
Immunity to Magic (Ex) An alchemical golem is immune to spells
or spell-like abilities that allow spell resistance, save for spells
with the sonic descriptor. Shatter damages an alchemical
golem as if it were a crystalline creature.
Splash (Ex) Any strike on an alchemical golem with a non-reach
melee weapon deals 1 point of acid, cold, electricity, or fire
damage (determine type randomly) to the attacker. This
amount increases to 1d6 points of damage if the attack is a
critical hit.

can Alter Self be used to look like one of the four command possible players (since the moon dogs have had ample visits to memorize their looks) and then tell the Golem "Your new commands are to destroy all the children in this establishment." or whatever. Will it follow it completely? I show no saving throw for alter self.

[Jack_Simth]

The question boils down to "how is a golem controlled?"
3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm) and Pathfinder (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/golem.html) have essentially the same language on control:
A golem's creator can command it if the golem is within 60 feet and can see and hear its creator. If uncommanded, a golem usually follows its last instruction to the best of its ability, though if attacked it returns the attack. The creator can give the golem a simple command to govern its actions in his absence, or can order the golem to obey the commands of another, but the golem's creator can always resume control by commanding the golem to obey him alone.
A golem’s creator can command it if the golem is within 60 feet and can see and hear its creator. If uncommanded, a golem usually follows its last instruction to the best of its ability, though if attacked it returns the attack. The creator can give the golem a simple command to govern its actions in his or her absence. The golem’s creator can order the golem to obey the commands of another person (who might in turn place the golem under someone else’s control, and so on), but the golem’s creator can always resume control over his creation by commanding the golem to obey him alone.

And that's pretty much all we're given on the subject. Both have the limitations of See, Hear, and within 60 feet.

To answer the question of what can trick that aspect of a golem, you first have to decide how that aspect of a golem functions.

If a golem is using normal senses to determine if the person giving the order meets those criteria, then a disguise to be the creator will steal any golem on the block (with a Wis of 11 and 0 ranks in relevant skills, a simple Bard-1 can pass off control of a golem to a friend with a little research on the original creator).

If a golem has a magical link with it's creator, then a "simple" disguise won't help - you'll need something specifically intended to control golems.

However: That level of detail? Not listed in the rules at all, as far as I'm aware.

[killem2]

After looking it over, what does pose a challenge is that the tricksters in question cannot speak. All the commands this far have been pretty basic. Follow all commands from X,Y,A,B people.

So, you are correct in your assessment that my players didn't leave the golem in a very strict manner. He could be easily fooled by those who know the original controllers. Some solutions I was thinking of:

Control Construct (but still can't speak to it)
Share Language (celestial, but written, assume golems can read)
Simulacrum (If tricksters can locate player's stash which they haven't yet, otherwise they don't have the cash)
Simulacrum lesser (same problem but if it can speak it might work)

Otherwise, I guess I'll have to find their biggest baddest living being and cast:

Enticing Adulation

[Vizzerdrix]

I always felt that golems and undead shoulld have 1 int and just be commanded with animal tricks.

[killem2]

I always felt that golems and undead should have 1 int and just be commanded with animal tricks.

I agree it would have made things simple but might have invalidated constructs.

Is there anything that lets someone get around not being able to speak? I assume constructs can read right?

[Jack_Simth]

I agree it would have made things simple but might have invalidated constructs.

Is there anything that lets someone get around not being able to speak? I assume constructs can read right?
Constructs in general? Whatever their Int score says. Golems are Mindless, so in general no.

That said: The golem needs to be able to see and hear the master, and the master needs to be within 60 feet. Otherwise, communication restrictions are not listed. Draconic, Celestial, Infernal, Common, Undercommon, Elvish, Drow Sign, Flash cards, PHP, C++ ... whatever.

[Jack Mann]

Also, keep in mind that if you rule this would work, you can expect your players to try the same thing later on. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is something to plan for.

[killem2]

Also, keep in mind that if you rule this would work, you can expect your players to try the same thing later on. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is something to plan for.

I just realized it won't work because shades doesn't give me access to any wizard spell lol.

But my player who has a half fiend ogre anti paladin as a cohort, left the golem in his control as well. So, I may not need to deal with the golem at all.



But could you use Major Image to replicate the master (these enemies know the master, they have spied on him and know him well. They have been spying for almost two weeks solid).

[killem2]

Ok, so this is what I did.

I used Shades to summon 3x Lilend. They charmed the Ogre AntiPaladin and since he is left in command he told all their staff (minus the golem) to head back to town to rebuild the church of mitra.

The other creature summoned some demons tat could use Major Image at will and the golem passed two saves but failed one of them and that image looked just like one of the commanding people and it told him to gaurd the boggard village instead of the main entrance. (He has a 10% of attacking allies he deems less than worthy as a fault)