Double hand crossbows

[nintendoh]

My goal for this character is to wield two hand crossbows in combat. The dm tends to let creative solutions slide because he thinks the game is more fun when we aren't just murder hobos. My plan is to run an artificer that constucted his own weapons. MIC has a +1 magic enhancement called auto loading. I think that would let me do iterative attacks right? What other crossbow feats should i get. Crossbiw expert, focus, yada yada. The artificer is primarily going to be a tinker type that dual wields in combat and has a host of home made wonderous items to MacGyver his way. Elite array and human. Should i dip factorum too?

[Divide by Zero]

Crossbow Archery (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.msg15068#msg15068). The rest of the handbook has some useful stuff too.

[nintendoh]

That's interesting. Im running out of room for feats too. How do i create items that give feats. Like a pair of crossbow sights that work like the gnomish version but also give me precise shot

[Troacctid]

Instead of wielding two crossbows, you could wield one double crossbow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Or even two double crossbows, because hey, nothing like quad-wielding, right?

[khadgar567]

you can use steel forge auto loaders basily turns each shot to free action and cuts the rapid reload feat chain plus you can change ammo type and you dont have ammo cost basicly you just need one bolt to use infinitly

[Waazraath]

I made a double hand crosbow build a few years ago, I'll post it below. I used build with 4 arms to reload the hand crosbows. It's takes quite a different route from what you are planning to do, but mabye there are parts of the build that are of use for you.



This build is created as a versatile crossbow archer, usable on all levels. Main focus is on getting a high number of attacks.

Race: human
Build (class, feats, special abilities)

Fighter - point blank shot, precise shot, hand crossbow focus
Fighter - dead eye
Rogue - rapid shot, crossbow archer
Totemist
Totemist
Barbarian - extra rage
Rogue - two weapon fighting
Cloistered cleric - law devotion, knowledge devotion, improved initiative
Swordsage - improved two weapon fighting
Swordsage
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Ruby Knight Vindicator - woodland archer
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Ruby Knight Vindicator - greater two weapon fighting
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Ruby Knight Vindicator - divine might
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Ruby Knight Vindicator

Alternative class features / adaptions / variants

- Feat rogue (UA) - fighter bonus feats instead of sneak attack
- Ruby Knight Vindicator adaption - replace devoted spirit with tiger claw school
- Hit & run fighter (DotU) - only light armor, +2 initiative, dex to dam. vs flat footed
- Cloistered cleric (UA) - extra domain (knowledge), other minor details
- Whirling frenzy barbarian (UA) - rage gives extra attack for -2 to hit, +4 str, and +2 vs reflex and AC
- metamagic rod of extend spell

Assumption

The trick with dual wielding hand crossbows is an answer to the question 'how to reload'? The description of the hand crossbow says: "You can draw a hand crossbow back by hand. ... you can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with each hand ...". Implication: you need a free hand to reload a crossbow, which seems reasonable. Magic of Incarnum states on the nature of soulmelds: "Once shaped, a soulmeld takes on a solid physical form in the shape specified for that particular meld." (p49) On page 68 the soulmeld Girallon arms is described, and the text specificly describes you get extra arms when bound to your totem chackra.

This is a case of "the rules don't say I can't"; the rules don't say specifically that Girallon arms can be used to reload a crossbow. Since they can be used to make attacks, and since they include a pair of hands attached to the arms, and the description of the crossbow says that free hands are necessary for reloading, I don't think it's too unreasonable to allow this.

Alternative, when a DM doesn't, a similar build is quite possible, with either a four arm race, like Tri-kreen or Diopsid, or with grafted additional arms, or a persisted / permanent Girallon's blessing.

Equipment

+6 belt of magnificence / belt of battle
+5 inherent dex bonus
2 splitting force +5 hand crossbows
Items that give extra turn attempts (like nightsticks)

Conclusion - what does this build do?

Easy to end up with a gimmick build, that makes a lot of attacks but doesn't do anything else. I tried to avoid that here. What this build brings:

- rapid fire. At level 20, the build can make 30 attacks: 4 from BAB, 3 from two weapon fighting, 1 from rapid shot, 1 from whirling frenzy, 4 from raging mongoose, and 2 from dancing mongoose (and the extra swift action from divine impetus), all x2 from the 'splitting' enhancement on the crossbows. 1/day, with belt of battle, even more.
- attack bonus: +16 BAB (20 with divine power) + 11 dex + 5 (item) +1 (point blank shot) +7 (law devotion) + 1 (weapon focus) -2 (rapid shot) -2 (whirling frenzy) -2 (two weapon fighting) = +36. With the 30 attacks attack routine, 10 would be at +36. With divine power on, the first 10 attacks would be at +40. This does not include the extra to hit from knowledge devotion.
- damage: 1d4 + 5 (item) + 1 (point blank shot) + 11 (dead eye) + 5 (crossbow sniper) + 11 (againt flat footed) + knowledge devotion + divine might, no damage reduction (because force), for easily 30 - 40 damage / arrow. Times 30 = plenty of damage.
- initiative: this is a dex based character. Assume 16 dex + 5 (inherent) +5 (levels) +6 (item), there's a +11 dex bonus. Inclusing the +4 (improved initiative) +2 (hit & run acf) +2 (belt of battle), +1 (swordsage), the grand total is a +20 initiative bonus (not included other items, spells and buffs)
- Maneuvers of an IL 16 martial adept (up to 8th level)
- Level 9 divine caster (up to 5th level spells)
- Funky extra stuff: very high base saves; evasion; extra swift action 1/turn; +10 feet movement; wis & dex to AC; trapfinding

So that leave to customize:
- loads of maneuvers and stances (the only ones filled in so far are a few tiger claw maneuvers), as an IL 16 martial adept.
- all cleric spell casting (lvl 9), so up to 5th level spells. Best choice is probably long duration stuff
- 2 soulmelds
- as good as all skill points, though some investment is needed to fuel knowledge devotion.

Example: easily customizable in an AC-beast with dex, wis, light armor, soulmelds, maybe stance (pearl of black doubt) (also works for touch AC for the most part)

Starting at level 1, the build is rather weak: high initiative and AC (with buckler, a high dex and a chain shirt), but low damage. That gets better at level 2 and 3, while level 3 also gives some skill points to spend. At level 4 and 5, the levels of totemist provide a little utility or defense (there are good soulmelds to enhance AC), the totem soulmeld is needed only at level 7 for girallon's arms. Level 6 and 7 each give an extra attack, and level 8 gives a strong bonus to hit, a bonus on damage, and on initiative. Level 9 gives another 2 attacks, with 6 attacks you're doing fine at this level. Also maneuvers are added. Level 10 adds another maneuver, another stance and wis to AC. At this point, further levels increase both spell casting and martial adept levels, so power will develop smoothly into the higher levels.

[nintendoh]

I made a double hand crosbow build a few years ago, I'll post it below. I used build with 4 arms to reload the hand crosbows. It's takes quite a different route from what you are planning to do, but mabye there are parts of the build that are of use for you.



This build is created as a versatile crossbow archer, usable on all levels. Main focus is on getting a high number of attacks.

Race: human
Build (class, feats, special abilities)

Fighter - point blank shot, precise shot, hand crossbow focus
Fighter - dead eye
Rogue - rapid shot, crossbow archer
Totemist
Totemist
Barbarian - extra rage
Rogue - two weapon fighting
Cloistered cleric - law devotion, knowledge devotion, improved initiative
Swordsage - improved two weapon fighting
Swordsage
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Ruby Knight Vindicator - woodland archer
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Ruby Knight Vindicator - greater two weapon fighting
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Ruby Knight Vindicator - divine might
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Ruby Knight Vindicator

Alternative class features / adaptions / variants

- Feat rogue (UA) - fighter bonus feats instead of sneak attack
- Ruby Knight Vindicator adaption - replace devoted spirit with tiger claw school
- Hit & run fighter (DotU) - only light armor, +2 initiative, dex to dam. vs flat footed
- Cloistered cleric (UA) - extra domain (knowledge), other minor details
- Whirling frenzy barbarian (UA) - rage gives extra attack for -2 to hit, +4 str, and +2 vs reflex and AC
- metamagic rod of extend spell

Assumption

The trick with dual wielding hand crossbows is an answer to the question 'how to reload'? The description of the hand crossbow says: "You can draw a hand crossbow back by hand. ... you can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with each hand ...". Implication: you need a free hand to reload a crossbow, which seems reasonable. Magic of Incarnum states on the nature of soulmelds: "Once shaped, a soulmeld takes on a solid physical form in the shape specified for that particular meld." (p49) On page 68 the soulmeld Girallon arms is described, and the text specificly describes you get extra arms when bound to your totem chackra.

This is a case of "the rules don't say I can't"; the rules don't say specifically that Girallon arms can be used to reload a crossbow. Since they can be used to make attacks, and since they include a pair of hands attached to the arms, and the description of the crossbow says that free hands are necessary for reloading, I don't think it's too unreasonable to allow this.

Alternative, when a DM doesn't, a similar build is quite possible, with either a four arm race, like Tri-kreen or Diopsid, or with grafted additional arms, or a persisted / permanent Girallon's blessing.

Equipment

+6 belt of magnificence / belt of battle
+5 inherent dex bonus
2 splitting force +5 hand crossbows
Items that give extra turn attempts (like nightsticks)

Conclusion - what does this build do?

Easy to end up with a gimmick build, that makes a lot of attacks but doesn't do anything else. I tried to avoid that here. What this build brings:

- rapid fire. At level 20, the build can make 30 attacks: 4 from BAB, 3 from two weapon fighting, 1 from rapid shot, 1 from whirling frenzy, 4 from raging mongoose, and 2 from dancing mongoose (and the extra swift action from divine impetus), all x2 from the 'splitting' enhancement on the crossbows. 1/day, with belt of battle, even more.
- attack bonus: +16 BAB (20 with divine power) + 11 dex + 5 (item) +1 (point blank shot) +7 (law devotion) + 1 (weapon focus) -2 (rapid shot) -2 (whirling frenzy) -2 (two weapon fighting) = +36. With the 30 attacks attack routine, 10 would be at +36. With divine power on, the first 10 attacks would be at +40. This does not include the extra to hit from knowledge devotion.
- damage: 1d4 + 5 (item) + 1 (point blank shot) + 11 (dead eye) + 5 (crossbow sniper) + 11 (againt flat footed) + knowledge devotion + divine might, no damage reduction (because force), for easily 30 - 40 damage / arrow. Times 30 = plenty of damage.
- initiative: this is a dex based character. Assume 16 dex + 5 (inherent) +5 (levels) +6 (item), there's a +11 dex bonus. Inclusing the +4 (improved initiative) +2 (hit & run acf) +2 (belt of battle), +1 (swordsage), the grand total is a +20 initiative bonus (not included other items, spells and buffs)
- Maneuvers of an IL 16 martial adept (up to 8th level)
- Level 9 divine caster (up to 5th level spells)
- Funky extra stuff: very high base saves; evasion; extra swift action 1/turn; +10 feet movement; wis & dex to AC; trapfinding

So that leave to customize:
- loads of maneuvers and stances (the only ones filled in so far are a few tiger claw maneuvers), as an IL 16 martial adept.
- all cleric spell casting (lvl 9), so up to 5th level spells. Best choice is probably long duration stuff
- 2 soulmelds
- as good as all skill points, though some investment is needed to fuel knowledge devotion.

Example: easily customizable in an AC-beast with dex, wis, light armor, soulmelds, maybe stance (pearl of black doubt) (also works for touch AC for the most part)

Starting at level 1, the build is rather weak: high initiative and AC (with buckler, a high dex and a chain shirt), but low damage. That gets better at level 2 and 3, while level 3 also gives some skill points to spend. At level 4 and 5, the levels of totemist provide a little utility or defense (there are good soulmelds to enhance AC), the totem soulmeld is needed only at level 7 for girallon's arms. Level 6 and 7 each give an extra attack, and level 8 gives a strong bonus to hit, a bonus on damage, and on initiative. Level 9 gives another 2 attacks, with 6 attacks you're doing fine at this level. Also maneuvers are added. Level 10 adds another maneuver, another stance and wis to AC. At this point, further levels increase both spell casting and martial adept levels, so power will develop smoothly into the higher levels.




Thats very interesting. Girallions blessing comes on a wand cheap and i can substitute the wand for a light crossbow on the arbalester homunculus. Now all i need is to gey proficient.

[Gildedragon]

There is also the Hand Double-Xbow, so you can double hand hand double crossbow

[Zylas]

For ultimate style points, get gloves of the master strategist,
Storing and recalling items (your crossbows) with those is a free action. So is reloading with hand crossbow focus or rapid reload.
So you can literally manually fire/reload any amount of attacks you make in a round that way.