Simulacrum and True Polymorph shenanigans.

[Clistenes]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I would like to see if I have understood the RAW, or I am wrong:

1.-Since the Simulacrum spell allows to duplicate any Humanoid or Beast, even those with PC class levels, and Wish allows you to cast any 8th level or lower spell without need of any of the material components (like nail clipping or hair, for example), or other requirements (like casting it in front of the creature you want to duplicate), does that mean that you could, say, use a Wish spell to create a duplicate of the most powerful humanoid you know about (like Simbul, for example) right before fighting the Big Bad?

2.-What is more, you can tell you Simbul Simulacrum to use a Wish spell to create another Simbul Simulacrum, and tell that one to create a third one...etc., until getting an army of Simbuls...

3.-When you turn an object into a living being using True Polymorph, could you turn it into a being of a PC race with handpicked abilities and class levels? (I think a 15-16 level character would be around CR 9).

4.-What happens if you permanently turn a statue into a Clay Golem (CR 9, so it's legal). I think the Blind Obedience trait of the Golem is considered a part of its stats, so, if you set yourself as its master when creating it with True Polymorph, it should obey you forever. And with time you would get an army of Clay Golems.

5.-And conversely, if you permanently turn your Iron Golem into say an Adult Blue Dragon (same CR, so it's legal), will it keep obeying you (since its personality doesn't change), or will it break free and eat you?

What if you turn the Golem into something alive but no more intelligent than it is, like a Roc (lower CR, so its legal)?

Or what if you turn your Flesh Golem into a Helmed Horror (lower CR, so its legal, but way more intelligent, and as loyal as a Golem).

6.-What if you permanently turn an Homunculus or Simulacrum into another kind of creature. Like for example, turning the Homunculus into a Commoner valet, or turning a Simulacrum of your character which has already depleted its memorized spells into a Deva or Genie shieldmeat... Will the transformed creature keep obeying you?

Thank you in advance.

[NewDM]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I would like to see if I have understood the RAW, or I am wrong:

It has, to death.


1.-Since the Simulacrum spell allows to duplicate any Humanoid or Beast, even those with PC class levels, and Wish allows you to cast any 8th level or lower spell without need of any of the material components (like nail clipping or hair, for example), or other requirements (like casting it in front of the creature you want to duplicate), does that mean that you could, say, use a Wish spell to create a duplicate of the most powerful humanoid you know about (like Simbul, for example) right before fighting the Big Bad?

Only material components are bypassed, not other requirements.


2.-What is more, you can tell you Simbul Simulacrum to use a Wish spell to create another Simbul Simulacrum, and tell that one to create a third one...etc., until getting an army of Simbuls...

Only if it has Wish memorized and then you only make one more because Wish is gone when you finish the spell.


3.-When you turn an object into a living being using True Polymorph, could you turn it into a being of a PC race with handpicked abilities and class levels? (I think a 15-16 level character would be around CR 9).

Nope, you turn it into a typical creature of that species so if you go High Elf its the High Elf from the MM, not a level 20 High Elf Wizard.


4.-What happens if you permanently turn a statue into a Clay Golem (CR 9, so it's legal). I think the Blind Obedience trait of the Golem is considered a part of its stats, so, if you set yourself as its master when creating it with True Polymorph, it should obey you forever. And with time you would get an army of Clay Golems.

A typical Clay Golem has an evil master that is either an Elementalist or a Necromancer. Not a level 20 Wizard. Does 5e have Inevitables?


5.-And conversely, if you permanently turn your Iron Golem into say an Adult Blue Dragon (same CR, so it's legal), will it keep obeying you (since its personality doesn't change), or will it break free and eat you?

Nope, its free willed, but friendly to you. The think Charizard in the first pokemon series. The only time it fought was when it saw an actual challenge.


What if you turn the Golem into something alive but no more intelligent than it is, like a Roc (lower CR, so its legal)?

It turns into a friendly Roc. Not sure what this is leading to.


Or what if you turn your Flesh Golem into a Helmed Horror (lower CR, so its legal, but way more intelligent, and as loyal as a Golem).

Loyal to who? Are you an evil necromancer? No, then its probably not loyal to you, but it is friendly to you.


6.-What if you permanently turn an Homunculus or Simulacrum into another kind of creature. Like for example, turning the Homunculus into a Commoner valet, or turning a Simulacrum of your character which has already depleted its memorized spells into a Deva or Genie shieldmeat... Will the transformed creature keep obeying you?

Thank you in advance.

Not obeying, but it will be friendly. Would you, for instance, throw yourself in the way of a dragon for your friend? Probably not.

[Clistenes]

Only material components are bypassed, not other requirements.

Well, the text says: "You don’t need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect." I think that removes the need for the creature you are duplicating to stand in front of you.

And the casting time for Wish is explicitly of one action, so you don't need to spend 12 hours casting the spell.


Only if it has Wish memorized and then you only make one more because Wish is gone when you finish the spell.

That would be true if you duplicate yourself, not if you use your Wish to duplicate somebody else who has Wish prepared too.


Nope, you turn it into a typical creature of that species so if you go High Elf its the High Elf from the MM, not a level 20 High Elf Wizard.

Really? The text says "any kind of creature", the only limit being its CR. And there isn't a High Elf in the MM... There are just the NPCs at the end of the book.


A typical Clay Golem has an evil master that is either an Elementalist or a Necromancer. Not a level 20 Wizard.

The requirements to create a Clay Golem are to be able to cast 5th level spells. And the requirements to create a Manual of Golem Creation is to have caster level 11. The typical creator/master of a Clay Golem is "a priest of great faith".


Nope, its free willed, but friendly to you. The think Charizard in the first pokemon series. The only time it fought was when it saw an actual challenge.

It turns into a friendly Roc. Not sure what this is leading to.

Loyal to who? Are you an evil necromancer? No, then its probably not loyal to you, but it is friendly to you.

Not obeying, but it will be friendly. Would you, for instance, throw yourself in the way of a dragon for your friend? Probably not.

I dunno. The text only speak of being friendly, or of breaking control when you turn an Object into Creature. About creatures turned into another creature, it only mentions that they retain their personality and alignment.

I know that if I tried something like that the DM would make an "accident" happen and my character would get killed... I am speaking of rules as written only.

[NewDM]

Well, the text says: "You don’t need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect." I think that removes the need for the creature you are duplicating to stand in front of you.

Sure, I'll concede that point.


And the casting time for Wish is explicitly of one action, so you don't need to spend 12 hours casting the spell.

Yep.


That would be true if you duplicate yourself, not if you use your Wish to duplicate somebody else who has Wish prepared too.

In that case the DM should roll to see which spells the duplicated character has memorized and how many slots they have available when Simulacrum is cast.


Really? The text says "any kind of creature", the only limit being its CR. And there isn't a High Elf in the MM... There are just the NPCs at the end of the book.

Its up to the DM. They can make it a 'typical' creature.


The requirements to create a Clay Golem are to be able to cast 5th level spells. And the requirements to create a Manual of Golem Creation is are to be able to cast 11th level spells. The typical creator/master of a Clay Golem is "priest of great faith".

So not a Wizard with Wish and True Polymorph? yep.


I dunno. The text only speak of being friendly, or of breaking control when you turn an Object into Creature. About creatures turned into another creature, it only mentions that they retain their personality and alignment.

I know that if I tried something like that the DM would make an "accident" happen and my character would get killed... I am speaking of rules as written only.

Since Golems are elemental spirits trapped in bodies made of their element, it wouldn't be out of reason that they go berserk and kill random people as soon as they are created.

[Asmotherion]

A typical Clay Golem has an evil master that is either an Elementalist or a Necromancer. Not a level 20 Wizard. Does 5e have Inevitables?


Well in 5e most things are purposely left unspesified.

If we are talking strict raw nothing makes golems loyal only to evil necromancers, and the elementalist (if I remember correctly from the few things I red in 4e, was a sorcerous origin?) is not even a thing in 5e.

Ps: Am I viewing the wrong section? I've never heard of 11th level spells since 3.5!

[Clistenes]

Well in 5e most things are purposely left unspesified.

If we are talking strict raw nothing makes golems loyal only to evil necromancers, and the elementalist (if I remember correctly from the few things I red in 4e, was a sorcerous origin?) is not even a thing in 5e.

Ps: Am I viewing the wrong section? I've never heard of 11th level spells since 3.5!

Already fixed that. What I meant was "to have caster level 11".

[Sigreid]

A typical Clay Golem has an evil master that is either an Elementalist or a Necromancer. Not a level 20 Wizard. Does 5e have Inevitables?


Loyal to who? Are you an evil necromancer? No, then its probably not loyal to you, but it is friendly to you.



Golems are not evil, and neutral and good forces are allowed to protect their stuff as well.

Helmed Horrors are actually animated suits of armor in this edition, using a different process than the normal animated suits, and not undead. They're much more natural for a transmuter wizard and are pretty much a step between animated armor and golem.

[Shaofoo]

That would be true if you duplicate yourself, not if you use your Wish to duplicate somebody else who has Wish prepared too.


This is the biggest flaw in your plan, you depend on another person to be able to pull off your shenanigans. This breaks down hard since you now have someone that can ruin your plans (by say Wishing for your entire army to him or something similar). Having another person that you don't control and that has powerful world reality altering magic itself can do you in.

Also how can the Simulacrums cast True Polymorph? You will only have one Simulacrum with a level 9 spell slot at any one time, if you Wish for Simulacrum B then Simulacrum A loses his 9th level spell slot and if you wish for Simulacrum C then Simulacrum B will lose his 9th level spell slot and so on. You at best can have one free True Polymorph cast.

Also Wishing for a second Simulacrum will dispel the first one since that is a text from the spell itself and will cause all your previously wished Simulacrums to be unorderable because they depended on the first to command the others down the line.

[Clistenes]

This is the biggest flaw in your plan, you depend on another person to be able to pull off your shenanigans. This breaks down hard since you now have someone that can ruin your plans (by say Wishing for your entire army to him or something similar). Having another person that you don't control and that has powerful world reality altering magic itself can do you in.

Also how can the Simulacrums cast True Polymorph? You will only have one Simulacrum with a level 9 spell slot at any one time, if you Wish for Simulacrum B then Simulacrum A loses his 9th level spell slot and if you wish for Simulacrum C then Simulacrum B will lose his 9th level spell slot and so on. You at best can have one free True Polymorph cast.

Also Wishing for a second Simulacrum will dispel the first one since that is a text from the spell itself and will cause all your previously wished Simulacrums to be unorderable because they depended on the first to command the others down the line.

Those weren't steps in a plan, each paragraph is independent from the rest. Those were just crazy stuff you can do to abuse those spells.

But I will address one of your points: If I know that Mordenkainen knows the Wish spell, I can Wish "I want to create a Simulacrum of Mordenakainen at the peak of his power, with Wish memorized, before he spends any spell slot that day", and since you don't need the hair or nail clippings or Mordenkainen to stay in front of you while you cast the spell, you get a Simulacrum of Mordenkainen with all his spells prepped one of which is Wish.

Since Fakenkainen has Wish prepped, he can repeat your Wish and get the exact same result as you. You can repeat that ad infinitum, and get an army of Epic Wizards minus one 9th level spell slot.

You can recycle Simulacrums of Mordy who have spent all their spell slots into Solars casting True Polymorph on them yourself. You could do it only once or twice times per day, but hey, you get a party killer with each casting.

Same for creating Clay Golems out of lumps of clay: You can create only one or two per day, but on the long term you get an unstoppable army.

And yes, I know that, if I tried that, the DM would do something like having the Simulacrums being copies of Mordenkainen that day he hosted a birthday party for his grandniece and none of his prepared spells were useful for battle... Or the Simulacrums turned Solars would be loyal to the Gods, not to me, because they are Solars... Or the Clay Golems would go berserk all at the same time and kill my character...

But all i am saying is that stuff is technically possible per rules as written.

[Zalabim]

Those weren't steps in a plan, each paragraph is independent from the rest. Those were just crazy stuff you can do to abuse those spells.

But I will address one of your points: If I know that Mordenkainen knows the Wish spell, I can Wish "I want to create a Simulacrum of Mordenakainen at the peak of his power, with Wish memorized, before he spends any spell slot that day", and since you don't need the hair or nail clippings or Mordenkainen to stay in front of you while you cast the spell, you get a Simulacrum of Mordenkainen with all his spells prepped one of which is Wish.

That's clearly asking for something more than just duplicating the effect of the simulacrum spell. Though, if you can wish for the effect of a spell on a target that's not in range of the spell, is there anything else you can break by casting like this? Level 8 Mass Suggestion, every day, a dozen people, anywhere on the planet? Any other good examples?

True polymorph is just broken every which way.

[Clistenes]

That's clearly asking for something more than just duplicating the effect of the simulacrum spell. Though, if you can wish for the effect of a spell on a target that's not in range of the spell, is there anything else you can break by casting like this? Level 8 Mass Suggestion, every day, a dozen people, anywhere on the planet? Any other good examples?.

The creature you are duplicating with Simulacrum isn't the target of the spell, I think its presence is a requirement, and Wish explicitly can go around those.

The people you use Mass Suggestion on are the targets of the spell, so I think they must be within range for the effect to take place.

But even if you need the duplicated creature to be within range when you use Wish to duplicate Simulacrum, you can still start the chain with a bit of preparation: Prepare Wish and Simulacrum, create the first Simulacrum of yourself using the prepared Simulacrum spell, and then order the first Simulacrum to use its Wish spell to create anothe Simulacrum of yourself... All the copies have their Wish spell, since you didn't spend it, and can use it to create another duplicate of you.

[Shaofoo]

Those weren't steps in a plan, each paragraph is independent from the rest. Those were just crazy stuff you can do to abuse those spells.

But I will address one of your points: If I know that Mordenkainen knows the Wish spell, I can Wish "I want to create a Simulacrum of Mordenakainen at the peak of his power, with Wish memorized, before he spends any spell slot that day", and since you don't need the hair or nail clippings or Mordenkainen to stay in front of you while you cast the spell, you get a Simulacrum of Mordenkainen with all his spells prepped one of which is Wish.

Since Fakenkainen has Wish prepped, he can repeat your Wish and get the exact same result as you. You can repeat that ad infinitum, and get an army of Epic Wizards minus one 9th level spell slot.

You can recycle Simulacrums of Mordy who have spent all their spell slots into Solars casting True Polymorph on them yourself. You could do it only once or twice times per day, but hey, you get a party killer with each casting.

Same for creating Clay Golems out of lumps of clay: You can create only one or two per day, but on the long term you get an unstoppable army.

And yes, I know that, if I tried that, the DM would do something like having the Simulacrums being copies of Mordenkainen that day he hosted a birthday party for his grandniece and none of his prepared spells were useful for battle... Or the Simulacrums turned Solars would be loyal to the Gods, not to me, because they are Solars... Or the Clay Golems would go berserk all at the same time and kill my character...

But all i am saying is that stuff is technically possible per rules as written.

Actually being so specific on the person might count as an alternate use of Wish because you are trying to wish for someone specific that is not the person at the time. The spell doesn't mention that the copy is an actual copy at the time the part was taken from the body. You could snip off a lock of hair from a newborn and preserve it for 40 years and then cast Simulacrum and you'll end up with a man, not a newborn because the newborn has grown up to be a man. Of course that isn't to say that you won't end up with a newborn but just saying that the spell doesn't mention specifics, I believe this is DM call.

If it were up to me if you were to Wish for a Simulacrum of a person then the Wish spell will always try to take the path of least resistance and make the person as it exists now. I would think that trying to wish for something that does not exist now would cause some monkey paw and weird things to happen (Like have a Clone of the Wizard appear next to you and be mad or have the Simulacrum appear in an indeterminate place because that place is the closest where they can recreate a Simulacrum and so on).

[Vogonjeltz]

Actually being so specific on the person might count as an alternate use of Wish because you are trying to wish for someone specific that is not the person at the time. The spell doesn't mention that the copy is an actual copy at the time the part was taken from the body. You could snip off a lock of hair from a newborn and preserve it for 40 years and then cast Simulacrum and you'll end up with a man, not a newborn because the newborn has grown up to be a man. Of course that isn't to say that you won't end up with a newborn but just saying that the spell doesn't mention specifics, I believe this is DM call.

If it were up to me if you were to Wish for a Simulacrum of a person then the Wish spell will always try to take the path of least resistance and make the person as it exists now. I would think that trying to wish for something that does not exist now would cause some monkey paw and weird things to happen (Like have a Clone of the Wizard appear next to you and be mad or have the Simulacrum appear in an indeterminate place because that place is the closest where they can recreate a Simulacrum and so on).

I think you raise an interesting question. Can one create a simulacrum of a creature after it's died?

I'd say the simulacrum is reflective of the creature whenever the hair/nails were removed. So if you have nail clippings of a young wyrm, you get a young wyrm, even if that creature has since grown up to be an ancient wyrm or died in the intervening time.

This would allow the storyline of the evil Vizier replacing the King with a duplicate to function without requiring that the king necessarily still be living. Although it would still probably be a good idea to keep the king in good health to replace simulacra down the line. That way you could have amusing mind games for the players, like one of the PCs witnessing the King tripping and falling to his presumed death off a balcony, only to have the King stride into court the next morning like nothing has happened, and no one being sure if the character is losing their mind or not.

[dhasenan]

1.-Since the Simulacrum spell allows to duplicate any Humanoid or Beast, even those with PC class levels, and Wish allows you to cast any 8th level or lower spell without need of any of the material components (like nail clipping or hair, for example), or other requirements (like casting it in front of the creature you want to duplicate), does that mean that you could, say, use a Wish spell to create a duplicate of the most powerful humanoid you know about (like Simbul, for example) right before fighting the Big Bad?

You are of course carrying around your component pouch, right?

[QUOTE=PHB203]Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus (found in chapter 5) in place of the components specified for a spell. But if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell.[QUOTE]

There's no cost listed for the snow or ice; there's no cost for the piece of the creature's body; so you can just use your component pouch. If you hate your DM, that is.

If you don't hate your DM, you won't make permanent minions, or minions that are more powerful than your character, without discussing it first. And she'll tell you if it's okay to use Wish to do it, and if that means you don't need part of the original creature.

[Clistenes]

I think you raise an interesting question. Can one create a simulacrum of a creature after it's died?

I'd say the simulacrum is reflective of the creature whenever the hair/nails were removed. So if you have nail clippings of a young wyrm, you get a young wyrm, even if that creature has since grown up to be an ancient wyrm or died in the intervening time.

This would allow the storyline of the evil Vizier replacing the King with a duplicate to function without requiring that the king necessarily still be living. Although it would still probably be a good idea to keep the king in good health to replace simulacra down the line. That way you could have amusing mind games for the players, like one of the PCs witnessing the King tripping and falling to his presumed death off a balcony, only to have the King stride into court the next morning like nothing has happened, and no one being sure if the character is losing their mind or not.

In 5th edition you need to spend 12 hours in front of the person you are trying to duplicate, and a dead person is no longer an humanoid, but an object... so it would fail, unless you use Wish to duplicate Simulacrum, bypassing the requirement of spending 12 hours in front of the person you intend to copy, that is.

[Shaofoo]

In 5th edition you need to spend 12 hours in front of the person you are trying to duplicate, and a dead person is no longer an humanoid, but an object... so it would fail, unless you use Wish to duplicate Simulacrum, bypassing the requirement of spending 12 hours in front of the person you intend to copy, that is.

Then what you say is true then Wish still requires the person to be in front of you for it to work, Wish does not supersede the need of a target, it just turns the 12 hours into an action. You can't ask for a Simulacrum of any person that isn't in front of you without going into the extra version of Wish.

But there is way too much ambiguity so a Dm has to put in their preferred method on how it is supposed to be resolved.

[JoeJ]

The creature you are duplicating with Simulacrum isn't the target of the spell, I think its presence is a requirement, and Wish explicitly can go around those.

But then where does the simulacrum appear? Is it next to you, or next to the person you're duplicating?

[Clistenes]

Then what you say is true then Wish still requires the person to be in front of you for it to work, Wish does not supersede the need of a target, it just turns the 12 hours into an action. You can't ask for a Simulacrum of any person that isn't in front of you without going into the extra version of Wish.

But there is way too much ambiguity so a Dm has to put in their preferred method on how it is supposed to be resolved.

As I said, I think having the creature you wish to duplicate would be a requirement, not the target (the text doesn't define that creature as the target of the spell, and you aren't affecting or altering that creature in any way), so Wish supersedes that too.

If the spell was rewritten so as to define the creature you duplicate as the target, then yes, you would need to have it in front of you.

But yes, it is pretty ambiguous. I guess the designers didn't think about it. It's another case of RAW vs RAI.


But then where does the simulacrum appear? Is it next to you, or next to the person you're duplicating?

Since the range of the spell is "touch", it appears within touching distance of the caster.

[Shaofoo]

As I said, I think having the creature you wish to duplicate would be a requirement, not the target (the text doesn't define that creature as the target of the spell, and you aren't affecting or altering that creature in any way), so Wish supersedes that too.

If the spell was rewritten so as to define the creature you duplicate as the target, then yes, you would need to have it in front of you.

The rules state that the requirements are the components needed to cast the spell. Wish supercedes these requirements but not anything else. Saying that Wish supercedes the need of a target has very little meaning. Also the text says that the illusory creature is the creature that was within range, it doesn't say that within range the illusory creature appears based on another creature.

You could have it on a case by case basis.


But yes, it is pretty ambiguous. I guess the designers didn't think about it. It's another case of RAW vs RAI.

I like to think that they made it ambiguous so that the DM can put their own interpretation. I like to give the designers more credit than that.

[Clistenes]

Saying that Wish supercedes the need of a target has very little meaning.

Uh... I haven't said that. I said that the creature you are duplicating isn't the target of the spell, at least not explicitly. Their presence can be interpreted as a requirement for the ritual.