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Pavbat666
2016-05-22, 03:11 PM
I am in need of some DM help. You see, I made an adventure, and planned it all out for my group up until they get to lv. 2. However, recently my friend had been asking for me to add more puzzles into my game. I am not very good at this, and I don't want to make some simple puzzle that anyone could solve, because what would its purpose be? However, I don't want it to slow down my game just because it is too hard and the PCs can't figure it out. The other problem is that all the creatures I use wouldn't be exactly capable of creating alaborate puzzles. For example, one adventure is tracking down a gang of thieving lizardmen. They will be hidden behind a waterfall in a cave. The next adventure is a wererat who tries to protect everyone by chaining himself to a tree. The only thing I have thought of is that I haven't found an interesting way for the PCs to track the lizardmen. Can it have something to with that?

Ninja_Prawn
2016-05-22, 03:43 PM
recently my friend had been asking for me to add more puzzles into my game.

Sounds like a recipe for trouble. By their vary nature, puzzles and riddles test the players rather than the characters, which a) stops people from roleplaying and b) means that you can only contribute if you have the right real-life skillset.

Just something to be careful of.


For example, one adventure is tracking down a gang of thieving lizardmen. They will be hidden behind a waterfall in a cave.

I'm sure you can work in some puzzles with a bit of imagination. The first thing that comes to mind here is that the cave used to be occupied by some kind of mage, and they've left puzzle-traps or something that the lizardfolk have retained (possibly they don't even know how to deactivate them).

Lvl 2 Expert
2016-05-22, 03:56 PM
Both of those scenario's are basically puzzles. The wererat one is one of those stories where you have to figure out what's wrong with the picture (what was the term for those things again, dark stories or something?). Only arriving at the right conclusion about what the situation is will give them an idea of what to do. Make the man completely distressed, he does nothing but yell nooo!, struggle to stay chained up and answer yes or no questions (and other simple closed preferably binary questions that aren't quite yes or no). To make these things harder make the situation more unlikely or absurd. It helps if they have no idea that there are wererats around. The question becomes harder again if his curse is homebrew and he turns into a dragon whenever he's not touching a rope or something. (I don't necessarily recommend that last one.)

In the waterfall one the puzzle could be in finding the location or in finding the way through the waterfall. For finding the location there are all sorts of map based puzzles you can google up, but how doable they are depends on how much experience with navigation techniques your players have, most people don't have a lot of that. You could try drawing up an incomplete map and writing down an incomplete route description or something that only lead to the waterfall when used together. Let's say they are walking past the rock that looks like a troll as per the description and you describe them as seeing an ancient oak tree, then they should recognize that this is the same oak tree they can see on the map and they should now be able to see the place where the only footpath goes up the cliff.

For getting through the waterfall, maybe there's some symbolic test of warriorhood? (All the non-warriors use another, better hidden entrance. Which will make a nice backup option if either solving the puzzle or rolling for the skill checks involved fail too horribly.) Think that scene in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Let them find a note or inscription in a rock that says something like "A warrior can make the slippiest jumps to get to his spears, and his aim is true." Have them figure out there are rocks in the water below the fall they can jump across, there are spears hidden behind the last rock and there is a bullseye carved into a log positioned above the falls that is connected to a rope in such a way that a drawbridge falls out of the curtain of water when the log gets knocked out of position. Something like that.

Those are the options I can think of.

Pavbat666
2016-05-22, 05:54 PM
Thank you for your suggestions! However, when I say waterfall, I mean a really small one. One where the ground moves alongside it, in terms of steepness, if that makes sense. It is just a small decline in a river, the decline is a little over the size of a large medium humanoid, hence the reason why people can go through that small cave. As for the mage idea, the cave is very small cave, going in one direction, filled with water. I just can't see that working out. Maybe something considering the fact about tracking the cave, or being able to actually find a way to go through the waters? The waters are exceptionally strong, but they are still stronger than some parts of the river, which it is found in.

qwertyu63
2016-05-22, 08:20 PM
I'll step back from "Should you add puzzles?" and just give you a puzzle.

It's one of the classics, modified slightly to add some mechanical hooks to help the players (the mechanical info I use is assuming D&D 3.5, adapt as needed).

The party reaches three doors. Each door has a statue in front of it. One of the three doors leads onward, the other two lead to dangerous traps.

A DC 5 Knowledge (arcana or the planes) check reveals the following:
Each of the three statues is powered by a different alignment; Law, Chaos and Evil.
The statues know what alignment each statue is.
A group entering the room can ask three yes-or-no questions.
Asking a fourth question results in all three statues attacking the group.
Each question must be directed at a single statue.
The Law Statue will always tell the truth.
The Chaos Statue will always lie.
The Evil Statue can tell the truth or lie, as it wishes.
The Evil Statue actively wants the group to choose wrong.
If a statue doesn't know the answer, they must remain silent.
The correct door is behind the Law Statue.

A DC 20 Sense Motive check reveals the identity of the Evil statue.
A DC 10 Int check reveals that question "What would that statue say if I asked them 'are you the Evil Statue?'?" would be useful.

Answer:
You must identify the Evil Statue. Assuming Sense Motive isn't used, logic works:

No-one (including the statues) can know how the Evil Statue will answer a question.

Label the statues 1, 2 and 3.

Ask Statue 1 "What would Statue 2 say if asked 'are you the Evil Statue?'?"
The answer doesn't mean anything. What matters is if they give one. If Statue 1 gives any answer, Statue 2 can't be Evil. If Statue 1 remains silent, Statue 2 must be Evil.

Assuming Statue 1 answered, move along. Ask Statue 2 "What would Statue 3 say if asked 'are you the Evil Statue?'?"

The same logic applies here. If Statue 2 remains silent, Statue 3 is Evil; otherwise, process of elimination states that Statue 1 is Evil.

Once you know the Evil statue, the rest is easy. Ask one of the non-Evil statues "Are you a statue?"
If they say Yes, they are Law.
If they say No, they are Chaos.
The other non-Evil statue is the other result.

veti
2016-05-22, 09:15 PM
I'll step back from "Should you add puzzles?" and just give you a puzzle.

It's one of the classics, modified slightly to add some mechanical hooks to help the players (the mechanical info I use is assuming D&D 3.5, adapt as needed).

Good lord, that puzzle is older than I am. Way older than D&D.

The version I learned as a kid had 3 statues, who could point, 2 doors and 2 questions.

The first question is: "Which of the other two statues is more likely to tell the truth?"

If you ask this of the Lawful statue, it'll point to the Evil statue (because the Chaotic one is, bizarrely enough, completely consistent).

If you ask it of the Chaotic statue, it'll also point to the Evil statue.

If you ask it of the Evil statue, it'll point to one of the others, it doesn't matter which.

Then you know that the third statue, the one that wasn't pointed at, can't be the Evil statue. Then you can ask it the old classic: "If I were to ask the statue whose alignment is diametrically opposite yours, which is the correct door, which one would they point to?"

The answer to that question is the wrong door.

But personally, I hate this kind of puzzle. Who puts these things in dungeons, and why? I mean, think of how much effort has gone into setting up that scenario. And what's the point of it? Whether you want to stop intruders or let them through, or let through some people but not others - this is a really bizarre way of selecting them.

A better kind of "puzzle", for me, is one that comes up organically within the game. Like hunting for the lizardfolk's lair (when the tracks all disappear at the edge of a stream), or figuring out whodunnit in a mystery. There is no single way to resolve, it's up to the players' imagination.

(Example from a low-level party I was in once: we realised that, for some reason, our host - the mayor of a small town - had poisoned us all, at a feast we were attending. My solution: I used an illusion to make him think that he'd accidentally poisoned himself as well, thus tricking him into showing us where he kept the antidote.)

Pavbat666
2016-05-22, 09:24 PM
Good lord, that puzzle is older than I am. Way older than D&D.

The version I learned as a kid had 3 statues, who could point, 2 doors and 2 questions.

The first question is: "Which of the other two statues is more likely to tell the truth?"

If you ask this of the Lawful statue, it'll point to the Evil statue (because the Chaotic one is, bizarrely enough, completely consistent).

If you ask it of the Chaotic statue, it'll also point to the Evil statue.

If you ask it of the Evil statue, it'll point to one of the others, it doesn't matter which.

Then you know that the third statue, the one that wasn't pointed at, can't be the Evil statue. Then you can ask it the old classic: "If I were to ask the statue whose alignment is diametrically opposite yours, which is the correct door, which one would they point to?"

The answer to that question is the wrong door.

But personally, I hate this kind of puzzle. Who puts these things in dungeons, and why? I mean, think of how much effort has gone into setting up that scenario. And what's the point of it? Whether you want to stop intruders or let them through, or let through some people but not others - this is a really bizarre way of selecting them.

A better kind of "puzzle", for me, is one that comes up organically within the game. Like hunting for the lizardfolk's lair (when the tracks all disappear at the edge of a stream), or figuring out whodunnit in a mystery. There is no single way to resolve, it's up to the players' imagination.

(Example from a low-level party I was in once: we realised that, for some reason, our host - the mayor of a small town - had poisoned us all, at a feast we were attending. My solution: I used an illusion to make him think that he'd accidentally poisoned himself as well, thus tricking him into showing us where he kept the antidote.)

Thank you, I also really like these type of puzzles. I like as a player to get creative, and use all you can to make everything a puzzle. I am just trying to fit the wants of my group

Kane0
2016-05-22, 09:57 PM
Two I have for an upcoming one-shot:

A dryad has hidden her more valuable loot within her tree, which is a bit hard to get to if you're not a dryad. She has a quick and simple puzzle that allows her to let in visitors:
There are 5 potted plants in her grove, and 5 nooks for them to sit in. There is an Ash, an Elm, an Ivy, an Oak and a Yew. The trick is of course putting them in that order around the grove (A, E, I, O, U).
If the PCs are getting stuck there are two hints you can give. First is an easy nature check to identify which plant is which, the second is that anyone that knows elven or sylvan knows how their vowels work.
Shouldn't take long, and can be brute forced if they give up just be trying the combinations repeatedly (unless you make a challenge when they put them in the wrong order)

The second is inspired heavily by Fable's demon doors. An animated door hides behind it some nice goodies, but it sits within a darkened area cursed with a permanent silence spell. It is dreadfully bored and any sort of entertainment would lead to it gladly letting the PCs in. The trouble is that he is going to have some big problems communicating that to the party, since he is largely unseen and unheard (and so is the party).

Quick 5 min puzzles that won't halt play even if they cant get it, and easily modified for different situations.

Vitruviansquid
2016-05-22, 10:08 PM
Your friend has bad ideas. Simply don't listen to them.

Templarkommando
2016-05-22, 11:55 PM
First some ideas, then a word of caution.

- A substitution cipher of some sort is usually a fun thing to put together. This can play a part where you're dealing with secret organizations, or military communications. Bits of the code book can be the end goal of dungeons.
- You can make up a puzzle that's similar to the Dragonclaw puzzles in Skyrim. I like to use colors of gemstone rather than etchings of animals, but to each their own. You can also adjust this for the mood of the dungeon. The puzzle that I'm going to use in my upcoming dungeon makes the characters try to figure out what color of gemstone is associated with a particular deity. They will then use different wands that change the color of gemstones by following certain rules.
- Puzzle chests. If you've ever seen the movie Da Vinci code, you could give the party a cryptex of some sort that they have to solve. Finding the actual riddle itself could be part of a quest if you like. You can also go the Betrayal at Krondor route and just have chests that unlock when a riddle is solved be a popular type of possession protection.

Now a word of caution. I'm usually very careful about making a puzzle the determining factor of whether or not the party is able to progress. Specifically, you don't want an unsolvable puzzle to be the only way that the party can get to the McGuffin that can save the world at the end of your dungeon. What you can do is make it so that the party has an advantage of some sort if they solve the puzzle that will help them overcome a later obstacle in some way. A piece of information that let's them know the weakness of the dungeon boss or even the BBEG. Information on the types of spells that an evil sorcerer uses... bits of political intrigue that could be used for blackmail... stuff like that.

Puzzles are good for players that like them. If you have a party full of people that are not entertained by puzzles, either make your puzzles really easy to solve (put the round block in the round hole), or don't do them. In this case you would get the round block after killing a boss and then use the round block to open a door... more like a key and lock situation than a real puzzle per se.

JoeJ
2016-05-23, 12:09 AM
I'll step back from "Should you add puzzles?" and just give you a puzzle.

It's one of the classics, modified slightly to add some mechanical hooks to help the players (the mechanical info I use is assuming D&D 3.5, adapt as needed).

The party reaches three doors. Each door has a statue in front of it. One of the three doors leads onward, the other two lead to dangerous traps.

A DC 5 Knowledge (arcana or the planes) check reveals the following:
Each of the three statues is powered by a different alignment; Law, Chaos and Evil.
The statues know what alignment each statue is.
A group entering the room can ask three yes-or-no questions.
Asking a fourth question results in all three statues attacking the group.
Each question must be directed at a single statue.
The Law Statue will always tell the truth.
The Chaos Statue will always lie.
The Evil Statue can tell the truth or lie, as it wishes.
The Evil Statue actively wants the group to choose wrong.
If a statue doesn't know the answer, they must remain silent.
The correct door is behind the Law Statue.

A DC 20 Sense Motive check reveals the identity of the Evil statue.
A DC 10 Int check reveals that question "What would that statue say if I asked them 'are you the Evil Statue?'?" would be useful.

Answer:
You must identify the Evil Statue. Assuming Sense Motive isn't used, logic works:

No-one (including the statues) can know how the Evil Statue will answer a question.

Label the statues 1, 2 and 3.

Ask Statue 1 "What would Statue 2 say if asked 'are you the Evil Statue?'?"
The answer doesn't mean anything. What matters is if they give one. If Statue 1 gives any answer, Statue 2 can't be Evil. If Statue 1 remains silent, Statue 2 must be Evil.

Assuming Statue 1 answered, move along. Ask Statue 2 "What would Statue 3 say if asked 'are you the Evil Statue?'?"

The same logic applies here. If Statue 2 remains silent, Statue 3 is Evil; otherwise, process of elimination states that Statue 1 is Evil.

Once you know the Evil statue, the rest is easy. Ask one of the non-Evil statues "Are you a statue?"
If they say Yes, they are Law.
If they say No, they are Chaos.
The other non-Evil statue is the other result.

The only change I would make is to get rid of the DCs. The first Knowledge check conveys information that is necessary to attempt the puzzle at all, so that needs to be automatically given without a roll. The other two checks trivialize the puzzle, so they shouldn't be allowed.

Lorsa
2016-05-23, 02:57 AM
I'll step back from "Should you add puzzles?" and just give you a puzzle.

It's one of the classics, modified slightly to add some mechanical hooks to help the players (the mechanical info I use is assuming D&D 3.5, adapt as needed).

The party reaches three doors. Each door has a statue in front of it. One of the three doors leads onward, the other two lead to dangerous traps.

A DC 5 Knowledge (arcana or the planes) check reveals the following:
Each of the three statues is powered by a different alignment; Law, Chaos and Evil.
The statues know what alignment each statue is.
A group entering the room can ask three yes-or-no questions.
Asking a fourth question results in all three statues attacking the group.
Each question must be directed at a single statue.
The Law Statue will always tell the truth.
The Chaos Statue will always lie.
The Evil Statue can tell the truth or lie, as it wishes.
The Evil Statue actively wants the group to choose wrong.
If a statue doesn't know the answer, they must remain silent.
The correct door is behind the Law Statue.

A DC 20 Sense Motive check reveals the identity of the Evil statue.
A DC 10 Int check reveals that question "What would that statue say if I asked them 'are you the Evil Statue?'?" would be useful.

Answer:
You must identify the Evil Statue. Assuming Sense Motive isn't used, logic works:

No-one (including the statues) can know how the Evil Statue will answer a question.

Label the statues 1, 2 and 3.

Ask Statue 1 "What would Statue 2 say if asked 'are you the Evil Statue?'?"
The answer doesn't mean anything. What matters is if they give one. If Statue 1 gives any answer, Statue 2 can't be Evil. If Statue 1 remains silent, Statue 2 must be Evil.

Assuming Statue 1 answered, move along. Ask Statue 2 "What would Statue 3 say if asked 'are you the Evil Statue?'?"

The same logic applies here. If Statue 2 remains silent, Statue 3 is Evil; otherwise, process of elimination states that Statue 1 is Evil.

Once you know the Evil statue, the rest is easy. Ask one of the non-Evil statues "Are you a statue?"
If they say Yes, they are Law.
If they say No, they are Chaos.
The other non-Evil statue is the other result.

There is one thing missing in your solution, and one thing that is wrong.

First, how would the PCs know that the right door is behind the Law statue? Is it written somewhere? If not, they have to ask for, but would already have asked three questions (although two of them are the same one).

Secondly, if you ask Statue 1 "What would Statue 2 say if asked 'are you the Evil Statue?'?" and Statue 1 is Evil, then it will remain silent. According to you, that would conclude that Statue 2 is Evil, which is the wrong conclusion (it could be Law or Chaos).

gooddragon1
2016-05-23, 03:11 AM
I am in need of some DM help. You see, I made an adventure, and planned it all out for my group up until they get to lv. 2. However, recently my friend had been asking for me to add more puzzles into my game. I am not very good at this, and I don't want to make some simple puzzle that anyone could solve, because what would its purpose be? However, I don't want it to slow down my game just because it is too hard and the PCs can't figure it out. The other problem is that all the creatures I use wouldn't be exactly capable of creating alaborate puzzles. For example, one adventure is tracking down a gang of thieving lizardmen. They will be hidden behind a waterfall in a cave. The next adventure is a wererat who tries to protect everyone by chaining himself to a tree. The only thing I have thought of is that I haven't found an interesting way for the PCs to track the lizardmen. Can it have something to with that?

Please don't hate me for this, but runescape has some decent puzzles for dungeoneering:

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeoneering/Puzzles

I recommend the ferret one (and the fishing ferret variant) and the sliding statues one. The ferret one is marginally more difficult than the sliding statues one.

Harder puzzles could be the flip tiles one and the sliding tiles one. The flip tiles one is nicer in that it gives you the option to manually flip tiles one at a time with the tradeoff of taking damage. The sliding tiles one will make you take damage if you try to make a wrong move.

A combat one is the spirit monolith where you have to distract spirits and kill them while a monolith charges.

More specific to your request:
Perhaps you could have witnesses who have spotted the lizardfolk moving towards certain towns in a particular direction and away from them in a particular direction. Sort of like triangulating where the lair is. Though make it not quite triangulating and then have evidence of their movements (scales on the ground and such) in the general area where the "triangulation" indicates that helps them close in on the lair.

Yora
2016-05-23, 03:56 AM
Puzzles and riddles never make any sense. Lord of the Rings gets away with it because the riddle didn't give away the fact that it was one. And it worked because it's a book where the characters do what the writer wants. You can't put anything like that in an RPG and have it make sense.
Nobody would spend a lot of resources on a complex device that lets everyone through after five to ten minutes.

The closest you can get in an RPG are situations where the players have to find a solution that isn't on their character sheet. Like collapsing a wall or building a bridge.

CharonsHelper
2016-05-23, 08:37 AM
Now - if you (the GM) want to be really evil - set up a bottleneck in a dungeon which PRETENDS to be a puzzle which you can get through, but really it's just a trick to convince the group to stick around and take a beating instead of pushing ahead by brute force.

Random questions that seem like riddles work well for this. Except... there are no correct answers. When they answer anything, have a trap go off to summon monsters or hit them with a scorching ray etc. It's amazing how long the PCs will stick around if they think that they can figure out how to puzzle through.

Ex: What is the color green at sunset under the ground?

I am tall, broad, yellow, and short. What am I?

Lvl 2 Expert
2016-05-23, 02:41 PM
Thank you for your suggestions! However,

Hey, you said you're running an adventure for a party of lvl 2, now who's the expert on that huh? :smallamused:

nedz
2016-05-23, 02:56 PM
The trick with these is to link the puzzle to the setting. So they are easy to solve, so long as you stay in character, but impossible otherwise. You also get to do more setting establishment.

Pavbat666
2016-05-23, 06:20 PM
Hey, you said you're running an adventure for a party of lvl 2, now who's the expert on that huh? :smallamused:

Touché, I mean your name says it all:smallbiggrin:

Dhuraal
2016-05-24, 10:25 AM
I will share an example of a puzzle I used before, it is not particularly difficult, but it fit the situation:

The party was tracking down a murderer, and through their investigations learned that the murders that had been occurring were primarily targeted at followers of Wee Jas. Also, they learned that a specific sect of cultist followers to Nerull often built hidden temples for assassins to further their cause and perform contracts. A lead sends them down through the mines of the town they are in, which had broke through into the Underdark. Following this path they eventually come to a carved and cared for stone hallway that ends at a double door. The doors were large and metal with a seem straight down the middle, a symbol to Nerull in the top center and out of the very middle a stone bowl cradled in a pair of desiccated hands. The inside of the bowl is stained crimson, as is the floor directly below it. Upon trying to open the door they find it locked with not apparent method to unlock it.

As I said, the puzzle was not very difficult, and as you may have guessed, the solution was an offering of blood to the bowl, which, when filled, would unlock the door. As the door opened, so did the bowl split down the middle and the blood spilled out onto the ground, emptying the bowl, ensuring another blood sacrifice was required.

In lore, the intent was that you would present the blood of your target as proof that you had completed your contract.

What I enjoyed most about this puzzle is that once they figured it out (by someone taking the guess, cutting themselves, filling bowl about 1/5 of the way, suffering a pretty fair chunk of HP loss, and hearing a bar slide out of the way inside the door), it lead to a much more involved discussion about how to fill it the rest of the way. Though the noob druid first suggested sacrificing his animal companion or summoning an animal and sacrificing it :smalleek:

Pavbat666
2016-05-24, 06:58 PM
. Though the noob druid first suggested sacrificing his animal companion or summoning an animal and sacrificing it :smalleek:

Ummm... well... I mean...yeah...I just can't:smallfrown:

Dhuraal
2016-05-26, 03:59 PM
Ummm... well... I mean...yeah...I just can't:smallfrown:

Yeah, it was his first campaign of D&D ever, so I cut him some slack and let him know that he was free to do that, but he would also immediately lose all his druidic abilities.

Pavbat666
2016-05-27, 09:33 PM
Yeah, it was his first campaign of D&D ever, so I cut him some slack and let him know that he was free to do that, but he would also immediately lose all his druidic abilities.

That makes sense! The very first time I played D&D, I was an elven cleric. Me, having a big mouth and temper, nearly made a lv. 19th (we were at lv. 1 at the time) ally, turn on us! My group got really pissed:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Cheers
2016-05-28, 07:54 AM
When it comes to puzzles, just make sure that they are never show stoppers. As in: solve this puzzle or you die or the story does not advance. The way I see it, there are three solutions to this:

1) Penalise a wrong answer but then allow the story to continue. (Eg. Guardian statues come to life when given the wrong answer). Closely related is the oposite where a correct answered is rewarded but not necessary.

2) Make the whole puzzle a side objective. (Eg. A password protected crypt while clearing the necropolis).

3) My personal favourite: non-binary puzzles. (Eg. A statue with empty hands. A cryptic text at it's feet etc... the statue will attack the party with whatever is placed in its hands.) There is no right or wrong answer but it does have clear and logical rules.

goto124
2016-05-29, 01:27 AM
2) Make the whole puzzle a side objective. (Eg. A password protected crypt while clearing the necropolis).

The party will go "this crypt is password-protected, it must be really really important to the plot!" and spend ages trying to solve it.

Jormengand
2016-05-30, 04:06 PM
One that I like is have arrow-holes and pressure plates that can be found by searching the room. The door only opens when you stand (or place a weight) on all of the pressure plates simultaneously. The arrow-holes are useless and do nothing.

HidesHisEyes
2016-05-30, 05:45 PM
You shouldn't bend over backwards to please your players. If puzzles really aren't your forté you should just tell the player that. I'm of the opinion that players, to some extent, get what they're given with DMs and if they really can't enjoy a game they should look for a new one.

shadow_archmagi
2016-06-01, 08:13 AM
I'd say not to try too hard to think of capital letter Puzzles that would seem at home in a video game. "Oh, the door only opens if you get the rings from one peg to another!" Instead, try just presenting slightly more natural scenarios that don't have obvious solutions. "The hobgoblins and the skeletons are at war for possession of an evil shrine. The skeleton king might negotiate with you, but he lives underwater and his name is the skeleton king so whatever he offers may not be the best deal even once you figure out how to talk to him."

have 124 more of them (http://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2016/03/1d135-osr-style-challenges.html)

Anonymouswizard
2016-06-01, 09:03 AM
One that I like is have arrow-holes and pressure plates that can be found by searching the room. The door only opens when you stand (or place a weight) on all of the pressure plates simultaneously. The arrow-holes are useless and do nothing.

I like this it makes sense for deterring adventurers. If you think about, if put a decent way into a tomb or dungeon whoever reaches it has just proven that they can bypass locks, monsters, traps, and spells.

Now the puzzle looks exactly like the type of trap that they'd expect, and is explicitly meant to waste their time, ideally so they decided to go and rob another, 'less well defender's tomb. It's actually rather ingenious, but doesn't definitely stop play if they are unable to solve it (as they can theoretically just destroy the door).

P.S. in Lord of the Rings, I don't think 'say friend and enter' was a riddle, I think it was the dwarves writing, 'look, we let you past our defences, here's how you open the door'.

Regitnui
2016-06-01, 09:38 AM
P.S. in Lord of the Rings, I don't think 'say friend and enter' was a riddle, I think it was the dwarves writing, 'look, we let you past our defences, here's how you open the door'.

Interesting thought. And that is the sort of 'puzzle' that works well in a tabletop environment.

The pillar puzzles in TESV:Skyrim's draugr tombs also makes sense; they're designed to ensure that the living can get through, but the dead cannot. The draugr don't have enough intelligence to connect turning pillars to opening a door. But you do, and so can make it through. The puzzles don't guard the tombs; that's what the draugr are for.

So in short; the draugr guard the tomb, keeping people out, and the puzzles lock the tomb, keeping the draugr in.

Storm_Of_Snow
2016-06-01, 10:36 AM
First thing you need to solve is why are the puzzles there? What purpose do they solve that a big set of locks doesn't, especially if there's something really unpleasant behind them?

IMO, there's two reasons - either the person placing them wanted to show their superiority to the rest of the population, or at the very least keep people who don't know the secret out (especially if it appears mystical), or they want to identify people who're intelligent enough to solve them for some reason (which may be to sign them up to work for them, or to sucker them in, then slaughter them as a potential threat). The first might have one or two in a row (think of the three trials to get to the Grail in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade), the second a lot more in order to weed out those who manage to solve them by luck.

You could potentially subvert known puzzles - say you give your players the puzzle with 8 units of liquid in one container, a 3 unit container, a 5 unit container and a funnel marked with a 4 connected to a locked door. The players might see it, think you're being unoriginal, give the standard answer to make 4 units, open the door and carry on. But there's another couple of funnels hidden elsewhere in the room, marked appropriately, and if they pour 1.5 and 2.5 units into those as well (and if you know the even shorter answer to the puzzle than the standard answer, you know how to make those values :smallamused: ), they actually get to where they should be going relatively easily, or they get something that will help them on the way, and the 4 units only answer takes them through a much more difficult and dangerous route. Just make sure you give a couple of rumours which imply they need to do something else (obfuscated of course so they don't automatically spot it applies here) so they can't say you're hiding stuff from them, and you're good to go.

For ideas, take a look at The Crystal Maze and similar shows (I'm sure most of the episodes have been posted on a certain media sharing site :smallwink: ) and try and work in some of those puzzles. Maybe go into combat rounds when necessary to give a time limit (with a suitable leeway, and maybe allowing one or two timeouts per puzzle where the party can discuss things at slightly less pressure, but don't allow any comfort breaks once they're actually trying to solve it).

And then all you need to do is stop the players battering down the doors to try and short cut the puzzle... :smallamused: And of course, if they come up with some clever shortcut to solve it in a way you didn't think of, give them extra XP on the spot.


Interesting thought. And that is the sort of 'puzzle' that works well in a tabletop environment.

The pillar puzzles in TESV:Skyrim's draugr tombs also makes sense; they're designed to ensure that the living can get through, but the dead cannot. The draugr don't have enough intelligence to connect turning pillars to opening a door. But you do, and so can make it through. The puzzles don't guard the tombs; that's what the draugr are for.

So in short; the draugr guard the tomb, keeping people out, and the puzzles lock the tomb, keeping the draugr in.
I'd have thought the puzzles were there to allow the citizens of Skyrim access to the tombs to inter their dead, the poison darts or whatever were there to make sure people who don't know the correct sequence don't get a second try, and the Draugr are there only because Alduin's return woke the dead - there's a few tombs where the only thing keeping the Draugr in is the unlocked front door.

Regitnui
2016-06-01, 11:30 AM
I'd have thought the puzzles were there to allow the citizens of Skyrim access to the tombs to inter their dead, the poison darts or whatever were there to make sure people who don't know the correct sequence don't get a second try, and the Draugr are there only because Alduin's return woke the dead - there's a few tombs where the only thing keeping the Draugr in is the unlocked front door.

Well, they are ruined tombs for a reason... But more importantly, I like the idea of having the puzzles or traps in a tomb keeping the monsters in, and the monsters are the security system, as opposed to the traditional dungeon where the traps and puzzles keep people out and the monster have just wandered in over the years, somehow keeping the traps intact.

Storm_Of_Snow
2016-06-02, 05:49 AM
Having the puzzle implies someone wants access at some point in the future for some reason, and unless they've some way of stopping the guards from attacking them, they're either running the risk of getting killed themselves, or they have to bring new security in every time.

Worse, if someone does defeat the puzzle, but gets killed by the guards, they've just opened the door and all the guards can get out, leaving the interior unguarded (unless there's something tying them to the location, but in that case, why bother with the puzzle to keep them contained?).

Regitnui
2016-06-02, 06:32 AM
Well, I'm assuming you want to keep the place locked unless there's an emergency; the sort of situation you ask adventurers to go fetch the Artefact of Doom from that dungeon. It's not going to be a place you want to get into every other week.

Asmodean_
2016-06-02, 07:01 AM
One that I like is have arrow-holes and pressure plates that can be found by searching the room. The door only opens when you stand (or place a weight) on all of the pressure plates simultaneously. The arrow-holes are useless and do nothing.

I had everyone commando-crawl under the arrowholes after stuffing them full with dirt just in case.
Also there were four of us (counting Squishy) and five pressure plates so don't be surprised it took us a while.

Jormengand
2016-06-02, 09:45 AM
I had everyone commando-crawl under the arrowholes after stuffing them full with dirt just in case.
Also there were four of us (counting Squishy) and five pressure plates so don't be surprised it took us a while.

That's not how I remember it happening... I seem to recall some "Walking over the pressure plates" being done, largely by Tristan because the rest of you were too wimpy even to do that until he showed it was safe.

ClintACK
2016-06-02, 11:10 AM
I am in need of some DM help. You see, I made an adventure, and planned it all out for my group up until they get to lv. 2. However, recently my friend had been asking for me to add more puzzles into my game. I am not very good at this, and I don't want to make some simple puzzle that anyone could solve, because what would its purpose be? However, I don't want it to slow down my game just because it is too hard and the PCs can't figure it out. The other problem is that all the creatures I use wouldn't be exactly capable of creating alaborate puzzles.

Two thoughts:

1) Is your friend the only player that wants puzzles, or would all your players enjoy a session of logic puzzling?

2) Logic puzzles can arise organically, rather than being artificially constructed set pieces.

On point (1) -- you could give your friend a puzzle to solve that doesn't require interacting with you and doesn't hold up the group. Example: if he's the wizard, instead of a new spell scroll in that next treasure, make it a spell book full of spells -- all but one of which he already has. Mechanically, it's exactly the same. But then you can "encrypt" the text somehow. Give him a sheet with the table of contents, encrypted. When he (the player) figures out how to read that sheet, he'll learn what spells are in the book, and his character will be able to copy the new one into his own spell book.

On point (2) -- simple physical tasks like crossing a river when the boat only holds half the party can be logic puzzles. (Maybe the right answer is to take the stealthiest party members first, lest someone wake up the monsters on the other side while the party is divided.)

Or, since lizard men are amphibious, there might be a section of tunnel on the way to their lair that is underwater. How long is it? Can everyone in the party swim? Hold their breath long enough? Do some need help? Is there a cross-current that might be dangerous to smaller party members? Should a high-strength, high-constitution party member go through first and secure a guide rope?

Asmodean_
2016-06-02, 11:18 AM
That's not how I remember it happening... I seem to recall some "Walking over the pressure plates" being done, largely by Tristan because the rest of you were too wimpy even to do that until he showed it was safe.

At the time I had single-digit HP. I don't want to be shot by anything if I can help it. Tristan had about twice as much HP and an AC that'd mean almost anything would miss.

waccio
2016-06-02, 12:48 PM
Puzzles and riddles never make any sense. Lord of the Rings gets away with it because the riddle didn't give away the fact that it was one. And it worked because it's a book where the characters do what the writer wants. You can't put anything like that in an RPG and have it make sense.
Nobody would spend a lot of resources on a complex device that lets everyone through after five to ten minutes.

The closest you can get in an RPG are situations where the players have to find a solution that isn't on their character sheet. Like collapsing a wall or building a bridge.

Not so much for logic puzzles, but yes to action related puzzles, like seen in the Indiana Jones Movies: invisible bridges, falling block floors, etc, with some quest related solution. Or the no-brainer skill check override.