[3.5] WBL woefully inadequate?

[Aegis013]

Has it also been other player's experiences that WBL is woefully inadequate?

The first problem I have is that a huge amount of the wealth just needs to be spent on keeping your numbers relevant. Between magic weapon, stat boosters, and resistance to saves, you're strapped for cash for the huge majority of adventuring career. These are passive bonuses. They're neither fun or exciting.

The low cost magic items that you might be able to afford all have action activation requirements (often prohibitive standard action requirements) with very meager benefits. The decent items have huge costs, and the good items tend to have prohibitive costs. There are a few exceptions like Anklets of Translocation and Healing Belts. But magic items with that kind of desirable cost:benefit ratio are painfully rare.

Crafting seems like a good solution in theory, but when it comes into play at my table, I see it exacerbate the problem: all of the players hoard their gold knowing they get something better next level instead of spending any of it on anything.

And we all pretty well know that this effects non-casters much more heavily than casters, as they can don't need to drop enormous volumes of gold on a single weapon in hopes of staying relevant.

So I finally got to play a game IRL. I know one of the players is making an Artificer, something he's always wanted to play. So I decide to make something that isn't heavily item dependent so I can toss wealth his way for him to mess with. Third player decides to make a Bladesinger, a little under-op for our table, but OK, I discuss with the DM and we get a Suel Arcanamach-Blade singer hybrid thing going on for that player that's not too bad.

I was a Binder/Warlock/Anima Mage(Binder Adaptation), needing almost no items. Pearl of speech and I had a fiendish arm graft for when I'd eventually start using eldritch glaive.

We ended up TPKing in our first "boss" encounter due to the Bladesinger character having no magic weapon and unable to beat DR, in large part due to the Artificer having hoarded the money I supplied and his own WBL. His infusion on his bow helped beat DR, but in the end my hengeyokai sparrow warlock was last man standing, and in the end I dropped to -3 hp after a natural 1 on a confirmation roll on Eldritch Blast that took the boss to 2 HP, would've won if I had rolled a 2, but sometimes the dice don't land in your favor.

Is this the experience of others as well? Or am I missing something? If you want to offer solutions, please offer solutions from the standpoint of a player, as I have no issue with this as a DM where I can have some say in the flow of wealth to the characters and just add additional treasure.

[The Glyphstone]

You didn't make the donation to the Artificer contingent on 'use this to make some gear for the other guy/me', or just up and tell him you're taking that money back since he didn't use it?

[ExLibrisMortis]

The hoarding is the problem here, not WBL.

You can save a lot of wealth on +numbers gear by getting a good buff routine (with persistomancy, ideally, but a lesser rod of extend spell works wonders). For example, using haste instead of a speed weapon, using greater magic weapon instead of buying +5 weapons, and using chained polymorph (note: takes Spellguard of Silverymoon levels) rather than, well, a lot of buffs. Wisdom-based casters should use a bead of karma with owl's insight rather than a wisdom booster, and so on.

In any case, I do agree that stat boosters are a bit overpriced, compared to some of the longer-duration buffs. The quadratic scaling is a little bit steep.

[Florian]

Has it also been other player's experiences that WBL is woefully inadequate?

Yes and no.

Part of learning system mastery is getting familiar with the "big" items that can´t be beaten in their usefulness. They will take up around 50% of your WBL and directly contribute to the efficiency of your character. This is an intentional effect and you should get used to it.

[Troacctid]

Honestly, I'm mostly surprised you'd go for eldritch glaive on an Anima Mage. You don't even get an extra attack until, what, level 12? Seems dubious.

Quadratic scaling on weapon prices is prohibitive to the point that I just never buy a weapon above +2-equivalent. In my houserules, I fix this by pricing numerical enhancements separately from special abilities, which has helped a lot. As a player, I just get a +1 weapon, or, like, a +1 keen or +1 spell-storing weapon, and add a lesser crystal of energy assault. Later on, I might use a Tooth of Dahlver-Nahr (keyed to Leraje, of course) to upgrade it to +5.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Quadratic scaling on weapon prices is prohibitive to the point that I just never buy a weapon above +2-equivalent.I like using multiple cheaper ways of stacking effects on a weapon. A +1 flaming composite longbow with +1 frost arrows and an electricity weapon crystal of energy assault is MUCH cheaper than a +1 flaming/shocking/frost composite longbow (for example).* You can do this with unarmed strikes, as well (but to a massively larger degree; adding five +1/(+1 equivalent) effects on an unarmed strike is far cheaper than a +10 unarmed strike, despite wasting money on all the non-stacking enhancement bonuses).

Of course, we can do things like having a +1 sizing/morphing shuriken for weapons at 1/50 the price...




*Using the MIC rules for stacking item effects for a weapon crystal of energy assault for cold, electricity, AND fire on a +1 composite longbow is even cheaper than this.

[Âmesang]

I've been dealing with WBL when prepping two characters, one 16th-level and one 3rd-level, and… at least for my part… I've been okay with it so far. I've found enough money for useful items and for having more flavorful stuff.

16th-level character: Roughly 57% of the wealth went towards magic items—+1 red steel dagger (laced with black lotus poison for the occasional attack of opportunity), gemstone of heavy fortification, scepter of obedience, headband of alluring Charisma +6*, shadow cloak, necklace of adaptation, belt of the reinforced form, ring of enduring arcana, ring of sustenance, Heward's handy haversack. Relatively few stat-boosting items, but plenty of stuff that grants various kinds of immunities.

Roughly 33% of the wealth went towards spells, mostly permanent (including superior resistance) as well as contingency (heal), clone, and the research costs for a personal spell.

The remaining 10% went towards guild membership fees, fabulous clothing, fancy jewelry, and lots and lots of extravagant treasures; 'cause if you're going to adventure, adventure in style. In time a portion of wealth will have to be saved up to, hopefully, pay for her first epic spell ('bout 400,000 gp).

3rd-level character: Honestly this character was even more fun to stat out for 'cause the only thing "magical" is an everburning torch. Lots of exotic material masterwork stuff, though, and quite a few things for flavor, such as 50 ft. of silk rope with grappling hook, custom-made felling axe for chopping wood (doors, chests, trees), whetstone, 3 pieces of chalk… even a mess kit; just 'cause she lives in the wilderness doesn't mean she has to eat with her hands!

*Shh, I borrowed from Pathfinder. Apparently you have to wear your enhancing item while you're resting and while getting your spells ready for the day in order to gain full bonus spells; Intelligence-based characters get a light headband, Wisdom-based characters get a light periapt, Charisma-based characters get… a 2 lb. cloak. Really. When was the last time anyone wore a cloak to bed? And forget wearing it in the bath! Though I still wonder why Pathfinder's headbands each weigh a pound, but I figure it's a more convenient substitute.

[Troacctid]

*Shh, I borrowed from Pathfinder. Apparently you have to wear your enhancing item while you're resting and while getting your spells ready for the day in order to gain full bonus spells; Intelligence-based characters get a light headband, Wisdom-based characters get a light periapt, Charisma-based characters get… a 2 lb. cloak. Really. When was the last time anyone wore a cloak to bed? And forget wearing it in the bath! Though I still wonder why Pathfinder's headbands each weigh a pound, but I figure it's a more convenient substitute.

Charisma bonuses in 3.5 can go on either the head or shoulder slot, as you choose.

[Aegis013]

I guess it may have been useful to add we were level 5 at the time.


You didn't make the donation to the Artificer contingent on 'use this to make some gear for the other guy/me', or just up and tell him you're taking that money back since he didn't use it?

I personally didn't need the items yet. I was doing OK (low, but consistent, easily competitive with our frontliner as he would sometimes miss as long as I didn't account for critical hits from his rapier) damage for the op level of the table. I said "Here's cash, here's a 4 item wish-list that you can make when you think it's cost effective, otherwise, use this money to play with your class."


The hoarding is the problem here, not WBL.

You can save a lot of wealth on +numbers gear by getting a good buff routine (with persistomancy, ideally, but a lesser rod of extend spell works wonders). For example, using haste instead of a speed weapon, using greater magic weapon instead of buying +5 weapons, and using chained polymorph (note: takes Spellguard of Silverymoon levels) rather than, well, a lot of buffs. Wisdom-based casters should use a bead of karma with owl's insight rather than a wisdom booster, and so on.

In any case, I do agree that stat boosters are a bit overpriced, compared to some of the longer-duration buffs. The quadratic scaling is a little bit steep.

So, play a caster? Not what I was hoping for, but more and more the way it seems to be leaning.


Yes and no.

Part of learning system mastery is getting familiar with the "big" items that can´t be beaten in their usefulness. They will take up around 50% of your WBL and directly contribute to the efficiency of your character. This is an intentional effect and you should get used to it.

So, there's not really a solution? This especially sounds awful at low levels where you'll be spending all of your wealth on these "big" items and have no cash to spare for things that are actually interesting.


Honestly, I'm mostly surprised you'd go for eldritch glaive on an Anima Mage. You don't even get an extra attack until, what, level 12? Seems dubious.

Quadratic scaling on weapon prices is prohibitive to the point that I just never buy a weapon above +2-equivalent. In my houserules, I fix this by pricing numerical enhancements separately from special abilities, which has helped a lot. As a player, I just get a +1 weapon, or, like, a +1 keen or +1 spell-storing weapon, and add a lesser crystal of energy assault. Later on, I might use a Tooth of Dahlver-Nahr (keyed to Leraje, of course) to upgrade it to +5.

As far as glaive on Anima Mage, I wouldn't take the shape until late, but at the optimization level of the other players, I wasn't worried about it (quite low op). By that time my damage would need the boost, but I wasn't too concerned about it prior. The version of Anima Mage I was using was also somewhat toned down.

As far as the weapon, that does seem to be the case. Weapon costs are quite awful and seem unnecessarily punitive to anyone who relies on weaponry.

Thank you for replies.

[Faily]

It also depends on the group.

Some groups divide the loot by wealth, and if a fighter wants to pick up that +2 Speed Longsword, they have to "buy" it from the rest of the group (usually by ending up in debt to the party). This method ensures that everyone gets the same amount of funds to play with, technically.

Then there are some who work on a case-by-case basis, where items are distributed according to need, regardless of value, to best equip the group as a whole. In my experience, this one often ends up favorably for the fighter-types, who are also the ones most reliant on having access to magical gear compared to the caster-classes.

[Âmesang]

Charisma bonuses in 3.5 can go on either the head or shoulder slot, as you choose.
True, I happened to notice that in the Magic Item Compendium; but you never know how a referee might rule things, so I figured it was a good idea to at least add a plausible explanation for my decision. :smallsmile:

[ExLibrisMortis]

So, play a caster? Not what I was hoping for, but more and more the way it seems to be leaning.
Someone has to play a caster, but about half the party doesn't. The game assumes 2 casters/2 mundanes. A lot of buffs can be shared. A decent way to solicit buffs from your party members is to get a few pearls of power, so the caster doesn't lose spell slots.

[Troacctid]

So, play a caster? Not what I was hoping for, but more and more the way it seems to be leaning.
Basically.


So, there's not really a solution? This especially sounds awful at low levels where you'll be spending all of your wealth on these "big" items and have no cash to spare for things that are actually interesting.
You don't need to buy rings of protection and stuff at low levels. You can pick it up later. Typically, at 5th level, you're expected to grab a +1 weapon, +1 armor, and maybe one or two extra things in a low price range.


As far as glaive on Anima Mage, I wouldn't take the shape until late, but at the optimization level of the other players, I wasn't worried about it (quite low op). By that time my damage would need the boost, but I wasn't too concerned about it prior. The version of Anima Mage I was using was also somewhat toned down.
In general, I think planning that far ahead is a mistake. There's no reason to spend your 5th level WBL on something you won't use until 13th level when you can just go out and buy it at 13th level instead.

[Aegis013]

Someone has to play a caster, but about half the party doesn't. The game assumes 2 casters/2 mundanes. A lot of buffs can be shared. A decent way to solicit buffs from your party members is to get a few pearls of power, so the caster doesn't lose spell slots.

Our group was an Artificer with a fighter dip, a Binder/Warlock Anima Mage, and a Suel Arcanamach/Bladesinger (some pre-reqs waived). We all had some casting. It was still woefully insufficient.


In general, I think planning that far ahead is a mistake. There's no reason to spend your 5th level WBL on something you won't use until 13th level when you can just go out and buy it at 13th level instead.

There was no guarantee I would have access to it after creation, and the Artificer wasn't going to take the necessary feat to craft it. It was the best opportunity.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Our group was an Artificer with a fighter dip, a Binder/Warlock Anima Mage, and a Suel Arcanamach/Bladesinger (some pre-reqs waived). We all had some casting. It was still woefully insufficient.
Not all casting makes for a party buffer (warmages attest to that). If you're not playing with a buffer (or just a tier 1 generalist), you're going to have to shore up elsewhere, and that will cost money, feats, and so on. That means you need to spend the cash you have, or be even further behind. In short, I stand by what I said before: the hoarding is the problem here, not WBL.

Of course, that's a problem in its own right. Why exactly didn't the artificer use the money to craft (pre-game, if necessary)? Were they saving up for a big golem, or something?

[OldTrees1]

I run out of stuff to buy for my Warrior around the WBL for ECL 17. So generally WBL is adequate for my purposes (and way too high for my spellcasters).

[Aegis013]

Of course, that's a problem in its own right. Why exactly didn't the artificer use the money to craft (pre-game, if necessary)? Were they saving up for a big golem, or something?

He wasn't given the option to craft pre-game, but we had some downtime where he could. He made a few utility scrolls, like invisibility sphere, which honestly put us in a pretty bad compromised position in the end, but it seemed like he was saving up for something. I just don't know what.

I do agree that the hoarding is a serious issue, but I can understand it. The way WBL was being run wasn't entirely RAW, and consumables used would never be refunded, if gear was sold for less than the price purchased, you would never make up the difference. That kind of approach encourages hoarding, but since the result was a TPK, the hoarding was a clearly a mistake regardless.

E.g. expected cash infusion during the level to get your total wealth ever gained up to expected WBL, but no tracking afterward by the DM at all.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I run out of stuff to buy for my Warrior around the WBL for ECL 17. So generally WBL is adequate for my purposes (and way too high for my spellcasters).A psychoactive skin of proteus is 84,000 gp, and it's one of the best things a mundane can get. That's fairly pricey, even at level 20.

And it's really easy to stack lots of effects on singular items, so start adding effects to everything you've got.

[GreyBlack]

I feel like there's a disconnect here between reality and expectation in this. Adventurers are fabulously wealthy compared to the average commoner, and even some royalty. You are literally fighting with angels and demons at the end of your career. No, WBL is not necessarily inadequate, but we think that adventurers should be more wealthy than they are.

[OldTrees1]

A psychoactive skin of proteus is 84,000 gp, and it's one of the best things a mundane can get. That's fairly pricey, even at level 20.

And it's really easy to stack lots of effects on singular items, so start adding effects to everything you've got.

I am quite aware of the various nice items and item stacking (top level face, hands, feet, & back items tend to be complex). Still I run out of stuff to buy (partially due to having a Large Winged race for the Warrior).


When playing a caster I feel like spending my WBL would be unbalancing unless it is for RP wealth drains.

[Aegis013]

I feel like there's a disconnect here between reality and expectation in this. Adventurers are fabulously wealthy compared to the average commoner, and even some royalty. You are literally fighting with angels and demons at the end of your career. No, WBL is not necessarily inadequate, but we think that adventurers should be more wealthy than they are.

I don't see how this comparison is important when it comes to considering the impact of WBL on adventurer capability vs. encounters. The commoner and royal are totally non-sequitur. Whether the commoner is a dirt farmer with not a cp or if the royal has unlimited wealth doesn't impact that my character has X value GP worth of gear with which to try to survive his adventures.

[Mato]

The first problem I have is that a huge amount of the wealth just needs to be spent on keeping your numbers relevant. Between magic weapon, stat boosters, and resistance to saves, you're strapped for cash for the huge majority of adventuring career. These are passive bonuses. They're neither fun or exciting.Pretty much the same thing was said by the authors in the magic item compendium as the introduced several hundred cheaper than normal items, lowered the cost on previously printed ones, and allowed you to generically add the power six to any item at no additional cost (previous you had to pay +50%).

You should check the book out.

I guess it may have been useful to add we were level 5 at the time.

Our group was an Artificer with a fighter dip, a Binder/Warlock Anima Mage, and a Suel Arcanamach/Bladesinger (some pre-reqs waived). We all had some casting. It was still woefully insufficient.You cannot legally enter anima mage before level five as a warlock/binder, the warlock cannot cast 2nd spells for the purposes of requirements. And contrary to Gitp's imaginings of the artificer, it's actually a subpar class and your teammate thought dipping fighter would somehow by anything close to a good idea.

That on it's own explains several things. You did all right with less items because you were houseruled for more power and your friend struggled because he was far weaker than he should have been.


I run out of stuff to buy for my Warrior around the WBL for ECL 17. So generally WBL is adequate for my purposes (and way too high for my spellcasters).I couldn't run out of stuff to buy if the DM gave me ten million gold even if epic items could not be bought. Also, why do you play using npc classes?

And on to the topic: Is WBL woefully inadequate?
Yes, I wish I had more money at every level (see above). But if you are asking if WBL can or cannot provide the items you wish, you need to remember WBL is just like everything else. It is a limited resource that if frivolously spent will offer very little.

Kind of like your real life budget. Hopefully you've got that under control and if you have then apply the same mentality to shopping for items. Look for discounts and cheaper alternatives, we have guides to help (1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-%28Equipment-Handbook%29), 2 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1002.20), 3 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4400.0), 4 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=477.0)).

[Aegis013]

You should check the book out.

You cannot legally enter anima mage before level five as a warlock/binder, the warlock cannot cast 2nd spells for the purposes of requirements. And contrary to Gitp's imaginings of the artificer, it's actually a subpar class and your teammate thought dipping fighter would somehow by anything close to a good idea.

That on it's own explains several things. You did all right with less items because you were houseruled for more power and your friend struggled because he was far weaker than he should have been.

Making a lot of assumptions there, friend.

First, I have MiC, and there are some very useful items for good prices, like the two examples I gave in the OP from that book. However, most of the cheap items are simply not good. Some are good, but only circumstantially.

Regarding Anima Mage and optimization, I've already said the group is pretty low-op. And I wasn't houseruled for more power at all. Anima Mage's prerequisite for spells was changed to 2d6 Eldritch Blast, but any of the features you'd really be looking to get, power-wise, were scrubbed from the class, which I found agreeable. It was pretty well just advances Invocations, Eldritch Blast and Binding the Theurge, which provided some additional scouting utility as I only had access to 2nd level vestiges (Malphas was my pick, but I never got off Sudden Strike, and we had no poison).

As far as my friend (Artificer) struggling, he did by far the most damage due to Knowledge Devotion feat and the infusion to put Bane on his bow with Targeteer Fighter dip, even more than our frontliner. He just ended up spending a bunch of rounds withdrawing from enemies, but eventually he got taken down.

Our frontliner struggled the most just because he got ganged up on and went down first.

If I hadn't lasted double or more the rounds my allies lasted I easily would've done the least damage, and my vestige abilities and warlock invocations turned out to be rather unhelpful for the adventure. But hengyokai sparrow's flight and AC are a powerful defenses at that level, and with my speed, size, and free move actions I was able to use the terrain advantageously.

[Fizban]

Is WBL inadequate? Question is tied to so many variables it's useless: player, class, build, party, other players, monsters, DM, campaign, pretty much everything ties into WBL because money can buy anything.

Regarding buying/selling, crafting and consumables, there aren't any rules or even strong guidelines about them. What the DMG presents is a bunch of treasure tables, and later a WBL chart based on those averages. A sidebar in the treasure section notes that the WBL is actually a little lower than the averages would indicate, since they assumed about 10% of your treasure would be burned on consumables. Nothing says the DM should increase treasure to compensate for extra consumable use or bad sell/buy decisions the way the experience point system does for underleveled characters, even though it's a good idea- so player beware. At the same time, nothing says the DM should reduce treasure if the players are crafting it all into double the value-but that's not a bad idea either. There is a specific note that the DM should make sure the wealth is evenly distributed, so if anyone claims that fighters actually deserve more money because their class sucks, well you already knew they were full of it.

WBL is pretty tight at 5th, this is true. It's even tighter if you're under the impression you must load up on stat boosters first, and further still if (as ExLibrisMortis said) you're hoarding some for a big purchase that you shouldn't be getting so early. This is a level where monsters with annoying defenses can really become available, and a DM who doesn't build encounters with the party in mind can easily find something you'll have little chance of killing, especially if it's a "boss" monster.

It sounds to me like the first problem (aside from hoarding) was a simple lack of preparedness. I don't waste money on expensive weapons either, but even if you refuse to buy a +1 at 5th you'd better bring an oil of Magic Weapon. As well as the usual cold iron and silver, maybe an adamantine arrow (good for one improvised attack), and an oil of Bless or even Align Weapon. The second problem depends on the Artificer: how many infusions did they have left, who did they use them on, and were they capable of speeding up infusions in combat? They have basic Magic Weapon on their main list so there's no excuse for not being able to buff the "Bladesinger" (how are they in already at 5th?)'s weapon for magic, unless they were out of slots.

As for general party balance/optimization: the game assume two full casters (of different types) and by definition no amount of partial casting will meet that so it's up to players to compensate. It sounds like you also all took multiclass builds (or at least you and the Artificer), which reduced the output on your main class features, right at the level when they'd have been hitting their break points (Artificer getting 3rd level infusions and Craft Arms at 5th, and Warlock's 3rd die of blast at 5th). No matter how well the builds would have turned out in time, you were not only relying on partial-ish casters but also had your two biggest a full stage behind where they'd normally be. Not only was there poor use of wealth at the last level before it starts taking off, but for that exact level your builds were at their weakest. You were screwed on several planes at once.

[OldTrees1]

I couldn't run out of stuff to buy if the DM gave me ten million gold even if epic items could not be bought. Also, why do you play using npc classes?

I am not using npc classes. Warrior is also a generic term that covers Fighters, Warblades, Crusaders, Martial Rogues, Barbarians, ...

I run out of stuff to buy via:
1) Using races, feats, and classes to cover some of the necessities
2) Being cost effective while buying the necessities and only buying the cost effective luxuries

One of the biggest savings is stopping at a +1 Transmuting Speed weapon rather than a full +1 (+9 worth of abilities). 72K vs 200K = 128K in savings.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I run out of stuff to buy via:
1) Using races, feats, and classes to cover some of the necessities
2) Being cost effective while buying the necessities and only buying the cost effective luxuries

One of the biggest savings is stopping at a +1 Transmuting Speed weapon rather than a full +1 (+9 worth of abilities). 72K vs 200K = 128K in savings.Apply spell traps to your equipment.

A use-activated repeating magical trap of greater bestow curse on your primary weapon(s) can do some seriously nasty debuffing, and a focused Maximized, Empowered greater dispel magic at max CL affecting a poison ring or other touch attack weapon can castrate any foes reliant on buffs or magic items (which is basically all the ones you should be worried about at higher levels).

A repeating trap of Widened Selective planar bubble with the traits you want to inflict on your enemies with an acorn of far travel on a plane with traits you want to affect you is a really nice combo. Slow time and god-negating dead magic within 20', while having fast time, fast healing, auto-resurrection, and massively enhanced magic for yourself? Sounds tasty. Apply the former to your armor and bring on the pain.

Paying for high level spellcasting with permanent effects is useful, if you're a non-spellcaster.

Polymorph any object from a nonmagical device (from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood) has a Permanent duration (depending on the variables of the spell), and it can't even be dispelled or disjoined. Combine with everything from permanencied enlarge person and divine might with an epic caster level (for BAB = CL, even if the CL is way above 20) for extra fun.

Acquire the tooth of Leraje and pay to have a Permanencied, Selective, Invisible, Widened solid fog cast on it. Now, when you open your mouth, every foe within 20' won't be able to move unless they have freedom of movement available. And since it can be initiated as a free action, does not affect you, and is invisible to anyone who doesn't have see invisibility or true seeing up (which makes invisibility even better for you)... Just take a few ranks in Perform (Ventriloquism) to learn how to talk with your mouth closed.

And so on.

[Quertus]

He wasn't given the option to craft pre-game, but we had some downtime where he could. He made a few utility scrolls, like invisibility sphere, which honestly put us in a pretty bad compromised position in the end, but it seemed like he was saving up for something. I just don't know what.

I do agree that the hoarding is a serious issue, but I can understand it. The way WBL was being run wasn't entirely RAW, and consumables used would never be refunded, if gear was sold for less than the price purchased, you would never make up the difference. That kind of approach encourages hoarding, but since the result was a TPK, the hoarding was a clearly a mistake regardless.

E.g. expected cash infusion during the level to get your total wealth ever gained up to expected WBL, but no tracking afterward by the DM at all.

Front line fighter not having a +1 weapon (or equivalent) after 3rd level? Inexcusable. Enjoy your TPK.

Whole party not RAW legal, yet still horribly sub optimal? You had to cheat bend/change the rules to be this bad? Sounds fun. :smallbiggrin:

DM Is giving out wealth by RAW random treasure, and not compensating for poor economic decisions on the part of the players to enforce WBL? +1 realism. Kudos. DM is enforcing strict WBL in, and not caring about what comes out? Now that's plain silly.

At low op play, who needs utility scrolls? :smallconfused:

Take the crafting role yourself this time, and learn first hand about when things are needed.

So, at 5th level, a human wizard with 2 flaws has 7 feats to work with. Spend 6 of them on 2 item creation feats, and 4 feats to reduce the cost of making said items. Using xp components, you can craft at a total cost of 35% of the market value.

Using that last feat on something related, like getting merchants to sell to you for less, can also help.

Since y'all like low-op and homebrew mods, see if you can convince your DM to let you know all the spells, in exchange for being unable to cast them. You are only an item crafter. Spend that 7th feat on a reserve spell power (I never said you couldn't memorize spells :smalltongue:), and you have your old shtick, too.

Sound fun?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'd suggest to whomever is performing the role of meat-sack target-dummy to take Ancestral Relic for a magic weapon, preferably one that can't be sundered or disarmed. Alternately, the psychic warrior's soulbound weapon ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) is a great way to get the exact weapon you need right when you need it.

Improve your teammates' optimization levels by tossing cool-sounding stuff their way. If the DM doesn't like it, ask him if he'd prefer to TPK every game so nobody actually gets to play.

[Mato]

Making a lot of assumptions there, friend.I'm not making any other than you didn't read the introduction/sidebars in the MiC.

As you just attempted to respin things to everyone is low-op but all you really did was retouch on what I said about the artificer, your character are so weak that you're dependent on items. The only thing that's changed is now you ran a weak character that also handed away most of it's money. As you continue to talk you continue to explain how your viewpoint on the matter is even more terribly askewed than originally presumed. But the solution hasn't changed, you need to learn how you manage your resources.


One of the biggest savings is stopping at a +1 Transmuting Speed weapon rather than a full +1 (+9 worth of abilities). 72K vs 200K = 128K in savings.And what is that going to do?
Without multiple exotic weapon proficiencies it'll just turn into a bow or greatsword.
I apologize, I thought the weapon changes (that's morphing), all it does is poorly bypass DR.

And how is that supposed to be as useful as a blur strike sudden stunning weapon?
How is that a better ranged weapon than a splitting energy bow that's been to the cave of gems?
How is that a better melee weapon than a valorous halberd of vaulting or manyfanged dagger?
What about a +1 eager warning initiative chainmail glove of taarnahm the vigilant for a +10 bonus to initiative checks and the ability to immediately detect any harmful intents within 120ft as your offhand weapon?

And why are we even talking about weapons here? It's pretty easy to deal hundreds of damage, what about freedom of movement, death ward, protection from evil, flight, teleportation, healing, social encounters, immunity to damage, methods to rewrite reality, ways to learn stuff faster than the plot recommends, and so on. You can't use a powerful martial strike if you're dead, unless you paid for undeath, so if you still have 420,000gp left over at least buy some minor schemas.

[Agincourt]

I find WBL to be overabundant. Even when I was first learning the system, most mistakes were not for want of equipment. Enemies taken straight from the Monster Manual or Bestiary are exceedingly easy. (There are a few notorious (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) exceptions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm), but thankfully Pathfinder seems to have fewer of these problems.) Most creatures have bad feats that the DM needs to reassign into something interesting so that they can be a challenge.

Also, I'm confused how two out of four people actively not spending their money is an indictment of the WBL system. Having money doesn't help you defeat enemies. Having better equipment does.

[OldTrees1]

Apply spell traps to your equipment.

And so on.
Spell traps are higher power level than our group plays at. We tend to stick to Warhulk, ToB, & Tier 3 casters.


And what is that going to do?
Without multiple exotic weapon proficiencies it'll just turn into a bow or greatsword.
I apologize, I thought the weapon changes (that's morphing), all it does is poorly bypass DR.

1)And how is that supposed to be as useful as a blur strike sudden stunning weapon?
2)How is that a better ranged weapon than a splitting energy bow that's been to the cave of gems?
3)How is that a better melee weapon than a valorous halberd of vaulting or manyfanged dagger?
4)What about a +1 eager warning initiative chainmail glove of taarnahm the vigilant for a +10 bonus to initiative checks and the ability to immediately detect any harmful intents within 120ft as your offhand weapon?

5)And why are we even talking about weapons here? It's pretty easy to deal hundreds of damage, what about freedom of movement, death ward, protection from evil, flight, teleportation, healing, social encounters, immunity to damage, methods to rewrite reality, ways to learn stuff faster than the plot recommends, and so on. You can't use a powerful martial strike if you're dead, unless you paid for undeath, so if you still have 420,000gp left over at least buy some minor schemas.
I added numbers to your post for easier answering.

1) Blur is most cost effective to get on clothes/armor than on a weapon
2) Ranged weapon? Flying Pounce is more cost effective at our power level.
3) Excessive damage is excessive. Sufficient damage is already had via class features.
4) What about it?
5a) The numerous necessary items for my groups Tier 3 power level (the first 70% of your list), are already accounted for. I did mention that high level face, back, hand, & feet items tend to be quite complex from combining multiple magic items.
5b) I was using my primary weapon as an example of how stopping at the sufficient & cost effective +6 weapon rather than filling it up with inefficient enhancements all the way to +10 saves a lot of wealth to finance the necessary items (Like the continuous Mind Blank, True Seeing, Freedom of Movement, Perfect Fast Flight, ...).

Sidenote: I do find it funny that you called "Perfectly bypassing all DR for 10 rounds, after the 1st hit" to be "Poorly bypassing DR". Sure "Everything but the first" is not as good as "Everything including the first" but I think it is a far cry from poorly (different standards probably).

[Aegis013]

I admit the anecdotal story is largely a result of hoarding, and those pointing that out are wholly justified in doing so.

It just highlighted to me the issues with non-full casters needing to spend an enormous volume of their wealth on weaponry and number boosts just to keep relevant with printed monsters. It seems like getting anything interesting or saving for something interesting is just risky.

[InvisibleBison]

I admit the anecdotal story is largely a result of hoarding, and those pointing that out are wholly justified in doing so.

It just highlighted to me the issues with non-full casters needing to spend an enormous volume of their wealth on weaponry and number boosts just to keep relevant with printed monsters. It seems like getting anything interesting or saving for something interesting is just risky.

Buying something that's only useful in some situations is more of a risk than buying something that's useful in all situations, yes. But that seems more like a feature than a bug. It may be that items that are only situationally useful are overpriced, but I don't see how that's an issue with WBL.

[OldTrees1]

I admit the anecdotal story is largely a result of hoarding, and those pointing that out are wholly justified in doing so.

It just highlighted to me the issues with non-full casters needing to spend an enormous volume of their wealth on weaponry and number boosts just to keep relevant with printed monsters. It seems like getting anything interesting or saving for something interesting is just risky.

Well I think most would agree that the list of necessary magic items is longer for non-full casters than for full casters. While my anecdotal experience(@20th level: Warriors need only 17th level WBL & Casters need almost no WBL) does not find WBL inadequate, it still finds the same disparity of need.

[Mato]

Sidenote: I do find it funny that you called "Perfectly bypassing all DR for 10 rounds, after the 1st hit" to be "Poorly bypassing DR". Sure "Everything but the first" is not as good as "Everything including the first" but I think it is a far cry from poorly (different standards probably).You seem to be poorly mistaken how it works.

When you score a successful hit with a transmuting weapon against a creature that has damage reduction, that attack is resolved normally. At the start of your next turn, however, the weapon transforms, taking on the properties required to overcome that creature's damage reduction.
* It takes one entire turn for it to work not simply the first hit.
* It doesn't work if the DR cannot be bypassed, such as DR X/-.
* It has to key its self to each creature even if the opposing group all share the same DR type.
I think you meant the +3 wsa shadowstriking out of tome of magic which does work after the first hit.

Sidenote: I don't find it funny that you didn't address any of my shout outs and instead showed off how little you know about your favorite wsa. What I do know is since you're bringing up shadow striking's abilities, I've already talked you into spending more money when you claimed you didn't have to. Well you do if you even want the ability that you're trying to talk about...

[OldTrees1]

You seem to be poorly mistaken how it works.

* It takes one entire turn for it to work not simply the first hit.
* It doesn't work if the DR cannot be bypassed, such as DR X/-.
* It has to key its self to each creature even if the opposing group all share the same DR type.
I think you meant the +3 wsa shadowstriking out of tome of magic which does work after the first hit.

Sidenote: I don't find it funny that you didn't address any of my shout outs and instead showed off how little you know about your favorite wsa. What I do know is since you're bringing up shadow striking's abilities, I've already talked you into spending more money when you claimed you didn't have to. Well you do if you even want the ability that you're trying to talk about...

1) Thank you for correcting my AFB 1st hit vs 1st turn of hits mistake about Transmuting(not my favorite WSA by the way but was the one I meant).
2) If those 1-5 I addressed(I even numbered them for us) were not the meat of your post, then I saw nothing worth continuing a conversation about*. Are we done here?

*Honestly I saw little worth conversing with you in the first place beyond my personal(not necessarily universal) anecdotal(did happen) experience somehow seemed to offend you.