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MeklorIlavator
2007-06-26, 07:59 PM
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045
Is this balanced for normal play, or only when spellcasters go "I Win, Nahh-Nahh"? I played with someone playing on over the weekend, and he seemed to breeze through everything. Opinions?

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-06-26, 08:02 PM
I think its pretty balanced. It brings the paladin up with Warblades and swordsages, so it'll seem tougher then your average fighter or ranger.

Skyserpent
2007-06-26, 08:03 PM
I didn't know they were imbalanced...

TheOOB
2007-06-26, 08:11 PM
I didn't know they were imbalanced...

Paladins are generally considered quite weak, as they only have two abilities that are fairly good, divine grace, which is passive defensive and doesn't make a huge impact without evasion/mettle, and special mount, which is situational.

martyboy74
2007-06-26, 08:12 PM
I didn't know they were imbalanced...

Name of part of them beside Divine Grace and Divine Spellcasting that doesn't suck.

The White Knight
2007-06-26, 08:20 PM
Name of part of them beside Divine Grace and Divine Spellcasting that doesn't suck.

Turning Attempts for fueling Divine Feats, of course. :smallbiggrin:

TheOOB
2007-06-26, 08:20 PM
Name of part of them beside Divine Grace and Divine Spellcasting that doesn't suck.

Acually, their spells suck pretty bad, getting at level 14-15 what your cleric gets better at level 7 isn't all that great.

The White Knight
2007-06-26, 08:26 PM
Acually, their spells suck pretty bad, getting at level 14-15 what your cleric gets better at level 7 isn't all that great.

Obviously, comparing Paladin spellcasting to the Cleric's will leave much to be desired, but it's still a decent complement. At least when using the Spell Compendium.

MeklorIlavator
2007-06-26, 08:59 PM
But this guy gets a lot more, including a much more powerful spell list(heal, righteous might, ect), which is just, they deserve it. But is everything they get, including some of those feats, which are similar to divine feats, except working off smite evil( like the ones that model a target specific flame strike)?

Burrito
2007-06-26, 09:01 PM
If you know how to game, and you know how your DM runs his/her game, then there is no real underpowered class. There are however, many many overpowered classes, special classes, kits, etc. What I don't like about 3.5 is how everything seems to be becoming munchkinized. But I will digress before this becomes a "Back in my day we had 1st edition AD&D..." rant.

Fawsto
2007-06-26, 09:35 PM
Hmmm... Personaly, I am a Paladin player... And dude, I must say that the fact that the Paladin has less maneuverability than the average fighter is bugging me for ages!

Ok, the Paladin is capable of surviving alone in the world (Healing, some spells and a mount), a thing that the fighter can't (he can only cut heads), but still he has less options.

I belive that they turned the Paladin into a Killing amchine there... I personaly am working in some alternative rules, I shall post them here soon, and there is included some minor changes that will mostly reballance all classes I know (meaning taht swordsages and friends are still out of my list till I get the books; the classes presented in the completes are there, except for the Complete scoundrel and champion).

The White Knight
2007-06-26, 09:48 PM
There's definitely some very cool and flavorful items to be found in that rebuild. The chain lightning and AoE bull rush abilities seem particularly interesting (the one that lets you dump a smite for Cha to attack is redundant, though, since smite does that anyways). I really like the additional uses added onto the lay on hands ability, too. Rechargable smiting and lay on hands is pretty sweet as well, as neither of these really pull their full weight on their own by standard rules.

I'd say working in some of the cool smiting abilities as higher level class features, the rechargable smites/healing, and added healing features would make the Paladin much more appealing beyond level 5. It shouldn't need much more than that.

Renegade Paladin
2007-06-26, 10:33 PM
The one that lets you dump a smite to add CHA to the attack is not redundant, because it works against non-evil targets. All of the [Smite] feats do unless otherwise stated.

The rebuild is a vast improvement, but I wouldn't use it in a game with other, non-rebalanced martial classes. I prefer Otto the Bugbear's fighter (http://dsenchuk.googlepages.com/fighter) to Seerow's version. (I wouldn't use Otto's other class rebuilds, though, because they all use his revised magic system, which doesn't sit well with me.) The rebalanced paladin is, according to all playtesting and practical play that I've done with it, still weaker than CoDzilla, but that's not a bar to measure balance against, really. I think it balances fairly well, and it's got a lot more flavor to it than the core paladin to boot.

Corolinth
2007-06-26, 10:42 PM
I like how the current trend is for abilities to be useable per encounter rather than per day. I'm waiting for clerics, druids, wizards, and sorcerers to get that same tweak so that all of their spell slots are useable per encounter as well. They gotta fit in, too.

The_Snark
2007-06-26, 10:44 PM
Acually, their spells suck pretty bad, getting at level 14-15 what your cleric gets better at level 7 isn't all that great.

Not as good as cleric spellcasting, but get Battle Blessing out of Complete Champion and use the Spell Compendium for your selections, and you're set to go. Battle Blessing decreases casting times for paladin spells from a standard action to a swift action (or a full-round action to a standard action), meaning you can be continually buffing during combat. And the Spell Compendium has some good spells for them.

Me, I think the paladin does fine as-is; if the special mount isn't campaign-appropriate, the PHBII, Dungeonscape, and Complete Champion have good replacement features for them. It's not equal to a full spellcaster, but it's better off than the other core fighting classes, I think.

Renegade Paladin
2007-06-26, 10:50 PM
I like how the current trend is for abilities to be useable per encounter rather than per day. I'm waiting for clerics, druids, wizards, and sorcerers to get that same tweak so that all of their spell slots are useable per encounter as well. They gotta fit in, too.
No, that would be silly. They already have enough to go all day long, and those abilities are already more powerful. A 20th level rebalanced paladin can smite five people per encounter for his normal melee damage +20. A wizard? A wizard can already do better than that. Much better. Several times per day. Even if he's a blaster. The whole idea is to start to approach spellcasters' level of power, not to just move the whole power scale up a notch or ten across the board.

de-trick
2007-06-26, 10:54 PM
nice class but I'll stick with normal paladin why sure after 6 level theres nothing new but who only wants to smite evil once a day surely not me

PS paladin is a powerful class immune to disease, a mount without caring for it. turning undead, spellcasting, lay on hands, smite evil what else do you want

Starsinger
2007-06-26, 11:01 PM
nice class but I'll stick with normal paladin why sure after 6 level theres nothing new but who only wants to smite evil once a day surely not me

PS paladin is a powerful class immune to disease, a mount without caring for it. turning undead, spellcasting, lay on hands, smite evil what else do you want

To be more than mediocre? Paladins are great at low levels, because they're very heavily front-loaded. But once the class devolves into, "X ability increases in uses" as all you get, you become somewhat stagnant. Also, a paladin's spell casting isn't like Cleric casting, or Wizard casting, or even Bard casting. Paladin spells are largely not of use.

MeklorIlavator
2007-06-26, 11:09 PM
So general reaction is that the above variant is more powerful, but not to much so? Okay, that's cool. Personally, I am more in favor of Fax's rework, but that's just me.

Kayeich
2007-06-27, 11:41 AM
The rebalanced paladin is obviously stronger than the normal paladin, but certainly not on the level of tome of battle classes or spellcasters. I'm running a game with a pair of them, as well as a swordsage, and the swordsage is having a breeze with creatures that give trouble to the paladins.

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-06-28, 11:43 AM
The rebalanced paladin is obviously stronger than the normal paladin, but certainly not on the level of tome of battle classes or spellcasters. I'm running a game with a pair of them, as well as a swordsage, and the swordsage is having a breeze with creatures that give trouble to the paladins.

Funny. I had a DM tell me that smiting evil all day was way to powerful. He gave me a really hard time about it.

Then he let my friend play a warhulk/hulking hurler. First time I ever quit a game.

ZOMGoubeaux
2007-06-28, 09:13 PM
Meklor, I'd like to point out a few things that will help to illustrate why we blew through the second adventure:

1) We fought undead. Turn undead, anyone?
2) Iron Golems have horrible reflex saves
3) The paladin had a Holy Avenger.
4) Human mercenaries and wizards cannot stand in front of a charging paladin.
5) You were behind the paladin's Tower Shield for a good few effects...otherwise, our two person party would've been toast several times.
6) Also, in addition to golems having bad reflex, electricity slows them.

Those are a few reasons why the second adventure was a breeze, to the point we played. The BBEG would've been a challenge, I'm certain. Too many people, and only 5 smites for that encounter. Not a good combo.

I prefer the rebalanced paladin to the original mostly because it makes the paladin a viable choice after 5th level, and because it allows the paladin to specialize into three different roles, whereas the original only had it's mount (or the PHb 2 variant, also featured in the rebalanced version.)

I hope this was helpful,
ZOMGoubeaux

MeklorIlavator
2007-06-28, 09:27 PM
Meklor, I'd like to point out a few things that will help to illustrate why we blew through the second adventure:

1) We fought undead. Turn undead, anyone?
2) Iron Golems have horrible reflex saves
3) The paladin had a Holy Avenger.
4) Human mercenaries and wizards cannot stand in front of a charging paladin.
5) You were behind the paladin's Tower Shield for a good few effects...otherwise, our two person party would've been toast several times.
6) Also, in addition to golems having bad reflex, electricity slows them.
All true, but the fact is that we expended no serious resources throughout both campaigns.


Those are a few reasons why the second adventure was a breeze, to the point we played. The BBEG would've been a challenge, I'm certain. Too many people, and only 5 smites for that encounter. Not a good combo.
Actually, the encounter really would n't have been that bad, as it was 4 swordwraiths, 2 Mercs, 1 wizards(the same level as we had fought before), a level 15 fighter, and the Death knight. In all, it would have been tougher, but not that tough. Especially because the enemies would be slightly split up, and only able to attack 2 at a time.


I prefer the rebalanced paladin to the original mostly because it makes the paladin a viable choice after 5th level, and because it allows the paladin to specialize into three different roles, whereas the original only had it's mount (or the PHb 2 variant, also featured in the rebalanced version.)

True, it does do all of that. I was just unsure if it went to far, adding to much. Still, the general consensus is that its a good rebalance. Personally, I'll go with Fax's variant.


I hope this was helpful,
ZOMGoubeaux
It was, thank you.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-28, 09:45 PM
No, that would be silly. They already have enough to go all day long, and those abilities are already more powerful. A 20th level rebalanced paladin can smite five people per encounter for his normal melee damage +20. A wizard? A wizard can already do better than that. Much better. Several times per day. Even if he's a blaster. The whole idea is to start to approach spellcasters' level of power, not to just move the whole power scale up a notch or ten across the board.

I think you're sarcasm detector's broken, cap'n.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-28, 10:02 PM
Personally, I'll go with Fax's variant.

So'll I, thanks. :smallbiggrin: