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Mrbassman
2016-05-22, 11:48 PM
I'm attempting to adapt the Scout from 3.5 Complete Adventurer for a campaign I'm participating in. I've ported Skirmish, the 3.5 Scout's most notable feature, but for the most part otherwise I've shied away from actually copying the 3.5 Scout abilities. I've tried to make the scale of the abilities similar to the most directly comparable classes in 5e, and I've tried to emphasize mobility as the key feature distinguishing the Scout from the other 5e base classes. That said, this is not playtested and very much a work in progress, so any and all feedback is appreciated.




Level
Proficiency Bonus
Skirmish
Features


1st
+2
1d6, 1
Skirmish


2nd
+2
1d6, 1
Cunning Action


3rd
+2
1d6, 1
Scout Archetype


4th
+2
1d6, 1
Ability Score Improvement


5th
+3
2d6, 1
Fast Movement +10


6th
+3
2d6, 1
Land's Stride


7th
+3
2d6, 1
Evasion


8th
+3
2d6, 1
Ability Score Improvement


9th
+4
3d6, 2
Mind Like Water


10th
+4
3d6, 2
Scout Archetype Feature


11th
+4
3d6, 2
Aim For The Horn!


12th
+4
3d6, 2
Ability Score Improvement


13th
+5
4d6, 2
Fast Movement +20


14th
+5
4d6, 2
Scout Archetype Feature


15th
+5
4d6, 2
Battle Fortitude


16th
+5
4d6, 2
Ability Score Improvement


17th
+6
5d6, 3



18th
+6
5d6, 3
Scout Archetype Feature


19th
+6
5d6, 3
Ability Score Improvement


20th
+6
5d6, 3
Burst of Speed





Hit Dice: d8

Proficiencies
Armor: Light Armor
Weapons: Simple and Martial Weapons
Tools: None
Saves: Dex and Int
Skills: Choose 3 of: Athletics, Acrobatics, Deception, Insight, Investigation, Nature, Perception, Stealth

Skirmish
Scouts rely on their mobility to give them an advantage in battle. Beginning at first level, during any round in which a scout has moved at least 10 feet, their weapon attacks deal an additional 1d6 damage. This damage only applies to attacks made during the scout’s turn. The scout loses this ability while wearing medium or heavy armor, or while carrying a shield. The damage increases as shown in the scout table.

In addition, in any round in which a scout moves at least 10 feet, their AC equals your armor AC + 1. At level 9 this becomes your armor AC + 2, and at level 17 your armor AC + 3.

Cunning Action
Starting at 2nd level, your quick thinking and agility allow you to move and act quickly. You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action.

Scout Archetype
At 3rd level you specialize in either Reconnaissance or Guerrilla operations (i.e. either a pansy French scout or a masculine Spanish scout). This specialization gives you features at 3rd level, then again at 10th, 14th, and 18th levels, all of which are detailed at the end of the class.

Ability Score Improvement
When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can’t increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

Fast Movement
A scout trains their movement so well that they become able to move much faster than otherwise. Starting at 5th level, your speed increases by 10 feet while you are light armor or no armor, and while not wielding a shield. This bonus increases to 20 feet starting at 13th level.

Land’s Stride
A scout becomes adept at travelling through all kinds of terrain. Starting at 6th level, moving through nonmagical difficult terrain costs you no extra movement. You can also pass through nonmagical plants without being slowed by them and without taking damage from them if they have thorns, spines, or a similar hazard. Additionally, you have advantage on saving throws against plants that are magically created or manipulated to impede movement, such as by the entangle spell.

Evasion
Beginning at 7th level, you can nimbly dodge out of the way of certain area effects. When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.

Mind Like Water
As water in a stream can flow around obstacles in its path, a scout’s mind can flow around magical attempts to control or comprehend it. Beginning at 9th level, you have advantage on saving throws against enchantments which specifically target you.

Aim For The Horn!
A patient scout becomes able to discern an enemy’s weaknesses in ways others cannot. Beginning at 11th level, if you study a single creature for at least 10 minutes, you gain advantage on all attack rolls made against that creature. You lose this advantage if you take a short rest, or if you study a new creature. This only applies to the individual that you study; if you study an owlbear you do not then have advantage on attack rolls against all owlbears.

Battle Fortitude
The stress of battle makes scouts tougher. Beginning at 15th level, you gain proficiency with Constitution saves.

Burst of Speed
The most experienced scouts have a Burst of Speed they can call on during times of need in combat. Once per short rest, you may take an extra turn, during which you cannot attack or cast spells. You must take this turn immediately before or immediately after your regular turn in the initiative order.

Scout Archetypes
Though certain traits, such as high mobility and a mastery of their environment, are universal to all scouts, scouts hone their skills differently depending on the kind of work they find themselves doing most frequently. These are embodied in the scout archetypes.

Reconnaissance
Reconnaissance scouts adapt themselves to be most able to stealthily ascertain the information they need. They focus on getting in, getting out, and staying alive long enough to make their knowledge useful. They prefer avoiding direct confrontation, and will generally try to stay out of melee range when it can be avoided. However, their ability to go unnoticed and learn about their surroundings are practically unsurpassed.

Improved Dodge
Reconnaissance scouts familiarize themselves with the most effective means of defense, and are able to adequately defend themselves while still moving. Starting at 3rd level, you may Dodge as a bonus action once per short rest.

Hide in Plain Sight
Starting at 10th level, you can spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt, plants, soot, and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage.
Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.

Tricks of the Trade
Although scouts are not trained in traditional magic, master reconnaissance scouts learn certain spells to aid them in gathering information. Firstly, you can communicate telepathically with any creature you within 30 feet of you. You don’t need to share a language with the creature for it to understand your telepathic utterances, but the creature must be able to understand at least one language.
Secondly, as an action you can concentrate on a single handheld object. If you do, you become able to see from the object as if you were standing wherever it is located. This vision ignores darkness and concealment. This vision lasts 10 minutes or until you move 300 feet away from the object, and does not require concentration to maintain. You may use this ability once per short rest.

Blindside
Reconnaissance scouts become skilled in techniques of incapacitation. Starting at 18th level, when you make a successful attack against an enemy unaware of you, that enemy is stunned for one round.

Guerrilla
Guerrilla scouts apply their stealth, knowledge, and prowess towards making their every blow as devastating as possible. They hit fast and hit hard so that a battle will end before their opponent knows it has begun. While they may not always recover the most valuable information, they can usually bring back the most important bodies.

Combat Reflexes
Guerrilla scouts train themselves to expect a battle to begin at any moment, and so are inordinately quick to react. Beginning at 3rd level, once per long rest you may reroll Initiative and keep the higher of the two rolls.

Battle Trance
Guerrilla scouts are so trained in combat that they fight almost by instinct. Beginning at 3rd level, whenever you have Skirmish, you may add the lower of your scout level/2 and your Wisdom modifier to damage.

Hit and Run
Guerrilla scouts use the force of their blows to propel their movement. Beginning at 10th level, upon a successful melee attack you may immediately move up to half your speed. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity from the target of your melee attack.

Battle Cry
Guerrilla scouts are not just extraordinarily quick to react, but they have the ability to rally their allies to act with them. Beginning at 14th level, once per long rest you may shout a battle cry, which causes all your allies who have yet to act this round to act at the same initiative as you. They continue acting at this initiative for the remainder of combat.

Momentous Lunge
The most advanced Guerrilla scouts can take even greater advantage of their momentum in a battle. Beginning at 18th level, once per round, upon a successful melee attack you get a second attack.

Arkhios
2016-05-23, 12:27 AM
Not to belittle your efforts, WotC Unearthed Arcana has done Scout (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/04_UA_Classics_Revisited.pdf) as a fighter sub-class. Maybe you could find some inspiration or some clues for balance there?

Rerem115
2016-05-23, 12:35 AM
I just glanced over the features, and one thing that I feel could be changed is the AC buff from Skirmish. +5 AC as a class feature is simply ridiculous; I'd leave it at +1 at all levels to save bounded accuracy. Also, does skirmish apply on every attack, or just the first?

Also, it needs some 5e love; "once per day" should be once per long rest, "once per combat" should be once per short rest.

Mrbassman
2016-05-23, 01:34 PM
Not to belittle your efforts, WotC Unearthed Arcana has done Scout as a fighter sub-class. Maybe you could find some inspiration or some clues for balance there?

Thank you for your suggestion. The thing here is that the WotC Scout and my Scout are fundamentally trying to do different things. Theirs is massively more combat oriented by virtue of getting the Fighter's additional attacks, and it lacks Skirmish, the ability which was the distinguishing feature of the 3.5 Scout. Overall, I'm shooting for something far more mobility-focused.


I just glanced over the features, and one thing that I feel could be changed is the AC buff from Skirmish. +5 AC as a class feature is simply ridiculous; I'd leave it at +1 at all levels to save bounded accuracy.

My thought here is that the Barbarian and Monk Unarmored Defense is essentially the same as this. Moreover, Unarmored Defense is passive, whereas the Skirmish bonus has a lot more restriction on its use. I will put in a restriction to light armor and no shields, because I can see how a Fighter 3/Scout 17 or whatever could become a problem otherwise. Other than that, a Scout with 20 Dex, Studded Leather, and Skirmish will have the same AC as a Fighter with 20 Con, no armor, and a shield, and the latter has a huge amount more offensive capability.


Also, does skirmish apply on every attack, or just the first?

Skirmish does apply to every attack, similar to a rogue's sneak attack, though I'll add in a proviso that it doesn't apply to spells, as per rogue.


Also, it needs some 5e love; "once per day" should be once per long rest, "once per combat" should be once per short rest.

Your sense of style is impeccable; I'll make these amendments at once.

Final Hyena
2016-05-23, 02:15 PM
Improved Dodge
Reconnaissance scouts familiarize themselves with the most effective means of defense, and are able to adequately defend themselves while still moving. Starting at 3rd level, you may Dodge as an action.
I assume it was meant to be a bonus action?


Hide in Plain Sight
Starting at 10th level, you can spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself. You must have access to fresh mud, dirt, plants, soot, and other naturally occurring materials with which to create your camouflage.
Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface, such as a tree or wall, that is at least as tall and wide as you are. You gain a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks as long as you remain there without moving or taking actions. Once you move or take an action or a reaction, you must camouflage yourself again to gain this benefit.
That is large increase, very large. You would expect the scout to have +9 to stealth at this point this takes it to +19.
Something like +5 and advantage would still be very powerful, but a bit less daunting when bonuses are hard to come by.



Battle Cry
Guerrilla scouts are not just extraordinarily quick to react, but they have the ability to rally their allies to act with them. Beginning at 14th level, once per long rest you may shout a battle cry, which causes all your allies who have yet to act this round to act at the same initiative as you. They continue acting at this initiative for the remainder of combat.
Perhaps specify that your allies go in order from highest to lowest of their previous initiative score to avoid that in game discussion.

Rerem115
2016-05-23, 02:40 PM
Other than that, a Scout with 20 Dex, Studded Leather, and Skirmish will have the same AC as a Fighter with 20 Con, no armor, and a shield, and the latter has a huge amount more offensive capability.


Let's do the math: Fighter with no armor and a shield has a maximum AC of 17. Fighter in full plate, Defensive fighting style, and a shield has an AC of 21. Your Scout with 20 Dexterity and studded leather has an AC of 17, which can go up to 22 when Skirmish activates. Also, the Reconnaissance archetype can take the Dodge action as a bonus action (I assume that's what you meant with the Improved Dodge feature; all classes can Dodge as an action), effectively bringing your AC up to 26.

That is a higher AC than any other class in the game. If you want to play with feats, you can bring your AC up to 31 against all attacks for a round (Magic Initiate, Shield), or 32 for a single attack (Defensive Duelist). The hit-and-run class shouldn't be better at being a front-line tank than the Fighter or Barbarian.

This class has quite a few features reminiscent of the Rogue; evasion, a pseudo-sneak attack, and cunning action. You have all the tools you need to dart around the battle hitting people and then getting out of range; you don't need to be tankier than the guy in full plate on top of all that.

I'm standing with my previous assessment: bring the AC bonus from Skirmish down to +1 at all levels, maybe going up to +2 at 20th. This would force players to use the class as intended, and try to position themselves so they can be out of range of the enemy, instead of being a front-line fighter.

Flashy
2016-05-23, 03:19 PM
My thought here is that the Barbarian and Monk Unarmored Defense is essentially the same as this. I will put in a restriction to light armor and no shields, because I can see how a Fighter 3/Scout 17 or whatever could become a problem otherwise. Other than that, a Scout with 20 Dex, Studded Leather, and Skirmish will have the same AC as a Fighter with 20 Con, no armor, and a shield, and the latter has a huge amount more offensive capability.

The key difference is that the Monk's Unarmored Defense can't go above 20, and the Barbarian's requires you to increment a largely useless secondary stat (dexterity). There's also the problem that this is a flat boost, and does still combine with other features. You can combine the feature with wild shape, you can combine the feature with mage armor, and you can combine the feature with unarmored defense (for a truly unhittable AC). In general 5e does not favor growing static modifiers. I'd suggest replacing this feature with it's own form of unarmored defense, one which only activates if you move 10' in a turn. At least smooth out the curve, and only make it scale as high as maybe +3.


Moreover, Unarmored Defense is passive, whereas the Skirmish bonus has a lot more restriction on its use.

Though the Skirmish feature technically is more restricted than unarmored defense it still might as well be an always on bonus. Yes, you have to move a minimum of 10 feet to activate it, but what prevents a character just circling an opponent? In 5e attacks of opportunity are only triggered when you actually step away from a character, you can move around inside their threatened area at will. What's more, the class has bonus action disengage. For obvious reasons there aren't a lot of commonly occurring monster features that shut down the movement of a character who has used the disengage action.

Mrbassman
2016-05-23, 07:39 PM
If you want to play with feats, you can bring your AC up to 31 against all attacks for a round (Magic Initiate, Shield), or 32 for a single attack (Defensive Duelist).


There's also the problem that this is a flat boost, and does still combine with other features. You can combine the feature with wild shape, you can combine the feature with mage armor, and you can combine the feature with unarmored defense (for a truly unhittable AC).

I am willing to concede this point. Perhaps if I restructured the ability to something along the lines of "In rounds that you move at least 10 feet, your AC becomes your armor AC + 1" and potentially scale that up to, as flashy suggests, a maximum of +3. This addresses both of the concerns brought up.



I assume it was meant to be a bonus action?

Yes, thanks for catching that.


That is large increase, very large. You would expect the scout to have +9 to stealth at this point this takes it to +19.
Something like +5 and advantage would still be very powerful, but a bit less daunting when bonuses are hard to come by.

This is word-for-word the Ranger ability of the same name from the PHB. Notice also how greatly limited you are while in this position.


Perhaps specify that your allies go in order from highest to lowest of their previous initiative score to avoid that in game discussion.

Personally, I don't feel like this change is absolutely necessary. Any DM who wants to avoid that discussion will just rule it thus.

Final Hyena
2016-05-23, 08:30 PM
This is word-for-word the Ranger ability of the same name from the PHB. Notice also how greatly limited you are while in this position.
It wouldn't be a real homebrew thread without someone sharing a dissatisfaction with an official rule book.
Shakes fist at books!


Personally, I don't feel like this change is absolutely necessary. Any DM who wants to avoid that discussion will just rule it thus.
Will they rule it so? Not everyone is going to read the full thread. Given that there is no official delaying, initiative order can be significant.

Mrbassman
2016-05-23, 10:14 PM
Will they rule it so? Not everyone is going to read the full thread. Given that there is no official delaying, initiative order can be significant.

One doesn't need to read this entire thread to determine a ruling. Basically, my position is that, since there is no official delaying, each DM will likely have decided on their house rules for delaying, and whatever those are will be applied to this ability. In essence, I just think resolving whether or not the players can choose their order under this ability will likely fall in line with a larger pattern of play in each individual game, and I don't necessarily think it's all that helpful for me to set either pattern as "default".

Also, I just realized that I forgot a "once per short rest" on the Improved Dodge text.

AvatarVecna
2016-06-13, 06:28 PM
Hello! I'm about to playtest this is a low-level game that's probably gonna die soon afterwards through a combination of players and DM gradually slowing down. But for the time being, I'm using it, and I noticed that this class has no starting equipment, which is useful for using the class.