Abusing reincarnate for fun and profit.

[Inevitability]

An idea I had yesterday.

Let's say we have a rock gnome fighter named Bob. Bob starts with 15 strength and 17 intelligence (he's an eldritch knight). By 12th-level, Bob has reached these stats to 20 (his DM is oldskool and doesn't allow feats).

Now, Bob gets killed by a cleverly concealed spiked pit that filled with acid after triggered. His druid manages to recover only a few bones, and decides to Reincarnate Bob. His new race turns out to be half-orc.

Now how does this affect his ability scores? He obviously loses a gnome's racial intelligence bonus (intelligence is reduced to 18) and his constitution doesn't change, but what happens to his strength? By RAW, it is first reduced by 0, then increased by 2 (strength increased to 22?). Afterwards, Bob can use another ability score increase to make his intelligence 20 again, leaving him with 22 strength and 20 intelligence.

Reincarnate doesn't have a line about the inability of this spell to raise ability scores beyond 20 either. Does this mean you can get a 22 in your primary stat (except wisdom) just by starting out as a suboptimal race?

[ImSAMazing]

I also can't seem to find anything about that in my PHB. By RAW it works, I think. I can tweet the designers if you want?

[uraniumrooster]

An idea I had yesterday.

Let's say we have a rock gnome fighter named Bob. Bob starts with 15 strength and 17 intelligence (he's an eldritch knight). By 12th-level, Bob has reached these stats to 20 (his DM is oldskool and doesn't allow feats).

Now, Bob gets killed by a cleverly concealed spiked pit that filled with acid after triggered. His druid manages to recover only a few bones, and decides to Reincarnate Bob. His new race turns out to be half-orc.

Now how does this affect his ability scores? He obviously loses a gnome's racial intelligence bonus (intelligence is reduced to 18) and his constitution doesn't change, but what happens to his strength? By RAW, it is first reduced by 0, then increased by 2 (strength increased to 22?). Afterwards, Bob can use another ability score increase to make his intelligence 20 again, leaving him with 22 strength and 20 intelligence.

Reincarnate doesn't have a line about the inability of this spell to raise ability scores beyond 20 either. Does this mean you can get a 22 in your primary stat (except wisdom) just by starting out as a suboptimal race?

I would rule that the ability score max of 20 for PCs still applies, but I'd let you re-assign the two points you put into Strength, as it would no longer be a valid use for your ASI.

You can't increase an ability score above 20.

As normal, you can't increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

Adventurers can have scores as high as 20, and monsters and divine beings can have scores as high as 30.

[Inevitability]

You can't increase an ability score above 20.

Interesting. The problem I have with this is the variety of ways that do allow one to have scores above 20: magic items, epic boons, being a 20th-level barbarian... One could argue these scores are legal because you don't increase them yourself, but then why consider a random roll resulting in more strength to be 'you increasing your strength'?


As normal, you can't increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

The text only talks about ASI's specifically. Besides, you aren't increasing the score, it's being increased.


Adventurers can have scores as high as 20, and monsters and divine beings can have scores as high as 30.

Except adventurers can have scores above 20. And is there a reason why one couldn't be considered an adventurer and divine being simultaneously? If I reincarnate into a tiefling, can I get 22 charisma?

[uraniumrooster]

Other DMs may have different opinions, but it's how I'd rule it.


Interesting. The problem I have with this is the variety of ways that do allow one to have scores above 20: magic items, epic boons, being a 20th-level barbarian... One could argue these scores are legal because you don't increase them yourself, but then why consider a random roll resulting in more strength to be 'you increasing your strength'?

Specific beats General. Magic Items, Epic Boons, and the Barbarian Primal Champion feature all have wording that indicates they are specific exceptions to the general rule, allowing the ability score to be increased while also raising the max.

Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4. Your maximum for those scores is now 24.

I don't have my DMG handy, but as I recall it has similar wording for the Stat Tomes and Epic Boons. Other magic items that raise ability scores, such as the Belts of Giant Strength, don't actually increase the character's base score, they just set it to a higher value while in use. If the character removes the belt, their ability score reverts to its normal value.


The text only talks about ASI's specifically. Besides, you aren't increasing the score, it's being increased.

Yeah, this was just my reasoning for allowing the character to re-assign the points instead of simply capping their Strength at 20 and treating it as a wasted ASI. The ASI that was spent on Strength as a Rock Gnome was valid, but as a Half-Orc the character wouldn't have been able to increase their Strength any further. Since it would not have been a valid use for that ASI, they would have had to put it in a different ability. As a DM, I'd allow the player to retroactively re-assign the ASI, but I can see other DMs simply enforcing the ability cap of 20 and saying something along the lines of "yep, that can happen when you get reincarnated... at least you're not dead!"


Except adventurers can have scores above 20. And is there a reason why one couldn't be considered an adventurer and divine being simultaneously? If I reincarnate into a tiefling, can I get 22 charisma?

The only way for an adventurer to exceed the general rule capping abilities at 20 is through a Magic Item, Epic Boon, or class feature that grants a specific exception. Reincarnate doesn't have any such exception, so the max of 20 still applies to a Reincarnated character.

Aasimar, Genasi and Tieflings are still just Humanoid creatures, not Celestials, Elementals or Fiends. An adventurer could use Shapechange or True Polymorph to become a divine being or monster, and gain the ability scores of that creature, but that's another case of Specific beats General, as those spells explicitly state that the target gains the ability scores of the chosen form.

[MaxWilson]

I would rule that the ability score max of 20 for PCs still applies, but I'd let you re-assign the two points you put into Strength, as it would no longer be a valid use for your ASI.

How about a human, would you let him keep the feat once he's a half-orc? And what about Elven Senses and Elven Weapons Training, and the half-elf's extra skills?

Reincarnation is a big headache.

[Temperjoke]

Sidetrack from the main discussion, but I wish Reincarnate also had monster/beast options mixed in as well. Like, being reincarnated as a goblin or a wolf. It'd probably cause a lot more problems though.

[Belac93]

I would say let them reassign the points. Otherwise, we'll have an outbreak of people playing half orc wizards until they can reincarnate as gnomes. It would totally mess up a lot of the game's balance.

Remember, gp cost is not a good limiter for almost anything. If you say its available for money, they will find a way to get it. There is a reason for no magic item economy in 5th edition.

[MaxWilson]

I would say let them reassign the points. Otherwise, we'll have an outbreak of people playing half orc wizards until they can reincarnate as gnomes. It would totally mess up a lot of the game's balance.

Remember, gp cost is not a good limiter for almost anything. If you say its available for money, they will find a way to get it. There is a reason for no magic item economy in 5th edition.

Is that why fighters are all walking around with Purple Worm Venom on every arrow and wizards all have hundreds of Planaar Bound Air Elementals on every adventure?

[Belac93]

Is that why fighters are all walking around with Purple Worm Venom on every arrow and wizards all have hundreds of Planaar Bound Air Elementals on every adventure?

O.k, maybe not that much. But there are 3 races that could possibly give +2 dexterity, 3 for +2 charisma, and 3 for +2 strength. (if you are only counting the PHB). Reincarnate costs 1,000 gp, which is less than plate and not much more that half plate. If you make, say, a dwarf light armour warlock, you have a 65% chance every time you reincarnate to get either 22 charisma or 22 dexterity. 1,000 to 3,000 gp is a small price to pay for the equivalent of a powerful magic item. If you want to go Arcane trickster/wizard/dex eldritch knight, its 71 (assuming your DM allows feral tieflings).

So, if that is possible, why would any powergamer getting to a high enough level ever start as a gnome wizard?

And if you are starting at a high level, with large amounts of money, you can just start as whatever race and spend some money to get a race you like.

[MaxWilson]

O.k, maybe not that much. But there are 3 races that could possibly give +2 dexterity, 3 for +2 charisma, and 3 for +2 strength. (if you are only counting the PHB). Reincarnate costs 1,000 gp, which is less than plate and not much more that half plate. If you make, say, a dwarf light armour warlock, you have a 65% chance every time you reincarnate to get either 22 charisma or 22 dexterity. 1,000 to 3,000 gp is a small price to pay for the equivalent of a powerful magic item. If you want to go Arcane trickster/wizard/dex eldritch knight, its 71 (assuming your DM allows feral tieflings).

So, if that is possible, why would any powergamer getting to a high enough level ever start as a gnome wizard?

Speaking as a powergamer: if I want to maximize Int as opposed to some other quality, and I intend to abuse Reincarnate later on to get Int 22 (if I know my DM is going to buy that), then of course I'm going to start as a gnome wizard! Reincarnate doesn't become available until level 11. Why would I want to spend my whole career as a half-orc with lower Int than I could have, when I could just play as a gnome, boost my Int up to 20 by level 11, then get someone to kill me and reincarnate as a (whatever, with Int +0) at level 11, before advancing to level 12, boosting my Int to 20, and Reincarnating back to gnome?

From a powergaming standpoint, if highest-Int is what you're interested in, this is clearly the optimal path. But you're arguing that no power gamer would ever do this. Why?

[Belac93]

Speaking as a powergamer: if I want to maximize Int as opposed to some other quality, and I intend to abuse Reincarnate later on to get Int 22 (if I know my DM is going to buy that), then of course I'm going to start as a gnome wizard! Reincarnate doesn't become available until level 11. Why would I want to spend my whole career as a half-orc with lower Int than I could have, when I could just play as a gnome, boost my Int up to 20 by level 11, then get someone to kill me and reincarnate as a (whatever, with Int +0) at level 11, before advancing to level 12, boosting my Int to 20, and Reincarnating back to gnome?
I did not think of that.

Still really weird though. "I'm smart, so I'll kill myself, come back stupider, get smarter again, kill myself again, and then come back as what I was originally! Its a great idea guys! Lets do it!"

[MaxWilson]

I did not think of that.

Still really weird though. "I'm smart, so I'll kill myself, come back stupider, get smarter again, kill myself again, and then come back as what I was originally! Its a great idea guys! Lets do it!"

I agree, and that's why I say Reincarnate is a pain. Much like Polymorph, it needs a substantial rewrite/clarification from the DM actually running the game before its effects actually become clear.

One version that I'd probably allow is to say that Reincarnate is pulling an alternate version of you out of another reality. You'll keep your XP total and level and your classes, but have only hazy almost-memories of your "previous" life (which is really the life of an alternate version of you), and you roll a completely new set of stats and build the character as normal for whatever race you roll. If there were permanent effects (like aging from a ghost, or permanently-raised stats from a Tome of Clear Thought), those permanent effects don't transfer to the new you, they stay with the old you. If you don't want a complete reroll like that, then don't Reincarnate! Just Raise Dead.

[Joe the Rat]

The simplest way to handle it in this case is to have the over-limit Strength ASI be reassigned to Intelligence. Nothing moves statwise, but now you are more susceptible to magic, can reach the top shelf, and can now appreciate the sweet, sweet joy of the Greataxe.

Although this does bring up more issues, like proficiencies. Racial skill proficiencies are (supposedly) based on inherent traits. Elves have keen elven eyes. Half Orcs are inherently intimidating. But the tools? Does an ex-Dwarf lose his love of axes and hammers? Can the half-orc ex-gnome no longer tinker? How much is it you skinned into a new body, and how much is it being a new being with shared memories?

[MaxWilson]

The simplest way to handle it in this case is to have the over-limit Strength ASI be reassigned to Intelligence. Nothing moves statwise, but now you are more susceptible to magic, can reach the top shelf, and can now appreciate the sweet, sweet joy of the Greataxe.

Although this does bring up more issues, like proficiencies. Racial skill proficiencies are (supposedly) based on inherent traits. Elves have keen elven eyes. Half Orcs are inherently intimidating. But the tools? Does an ex-Dwarf lose his love of axes and hammers? Can the half-orc ex-gnome no longer tinker? How much is it you skinned into a new body, and how much is it being a new being with shared memories?

That is why this way is not the simplest way.

The simplest way is a full character re-roll, keeping only specific traits such as XP and class levels.

[uraniumrooster]

How about a human, would you let him keep the feat once he's a half-orc? And what about Elven Senses and Elven Weapons Training, and the half-elf's extra skills?

Reincarnation is a big headache.

Since the spell says all your racial features are replaced, I'd say no. Any benefits from your race, including racial ability increases, v-human feat, elven senses and weapon training, etc., would go away and be replaced by the features from your new race.

[TheProfessor85]

Also important part, you don't get to choose which race you come back as. It's a d100 rolled by the DM

[georgie_leech]

That is why this way is not the simplest way.

The simplest way is a full character re-roll, keeping only specific traits such as XP and class levels.

Devil's advocate for a moment, but if the spell enables a re-roll... why not just roll a new character? Presumably you would be getting brought in at an appropriate level anyway.

[MaxWilson]

Devil's advocate for a moment, but if the spell enables a re-roll... why not just roll a new character? Presumably you would be getting brought in at an appropriate level anyway.

Not in my campaign. Everyone comes in at level 1d3 (not strictly level 1, because I like chaos and heterogeneity). There are plenty of other tables out there too where you have to earn your levels the hard way for every PC.

(Obviously in a campaign where the DM gives you the benefits of the spell for free, you just wouldn't use it.)

[georgie_leech]

Not in my campaign. Everyone comes in at level 1d3 (not strictly level 1, because I like chaos and heterogeneity). There are plenty of other tables out there too where you have to earn your levels the hard way for every PC.

(Obviously in a campaign where the DM gives you the benefits of the spell for free, you just wouldn't use it.)

Would not such a campaign structure be difficult to use for most printed or classic adventure paths? Why is the neophyte Wizard journeying with the epic Fighter 15 on his quest to slay the horrible demon plaguing the land? After losing her valued companions at the hand of the evil tyrant they were seeking to depose, why would the Ranger 13 seek out a new Urchin Rogue fresh off the streets instead of recruiting some skilled higher-up of the Thieves Guild assisting them?

It seems to me that your reading only gives meaning to the spell in a specific style of campaign, one which I can't find much evidence of it being the standard for design assumptions.

[uraniumrooster]

Would not such a campaign structure be difficult to use for most printed or classic adventure paths? Why is the neophyte Wizard journeying with the epic Fighter 15 on his quest to slay the horrible demon plaguing the land? After losing her valued companions at the hand of the evil tyrant they were seeking to depose, why would the Ranger 13 seek out a new Urchin Rogue fresh off the streets instead of recruiting some skilled higher-up of the Thieves Guild assisting them?

It seems to me that your reading only gives meaning to the spell in a specific style of campaign, one which I can't find much evidence of it being the standard for design assumptions.

Aragorn adventured with a bunch of lowly Hobbits. Obi-wan adventured with an upstart farm-boy.

A lot of great stories have significant level disparities between the heroes, at least at first. The way XP requirements scale, lower level characters will close the gap pretty fast... the XP required to advance that level 15 Fighter up to 16 is almost enough to raise a level 1 character to level 8.

[georgie_leech]

Aragorn adventured with a bunch of lowly Hobbits. Obi-wan adventured with an upstart farm-boy.

A lot of great stories have significant level disparities between the heroes, at least at first. The way XP requirements scale, lower level characters will close the gap pretty fast... the XP required to advance that level 15 Fighter up to 16 is almost enough to raise a level 1 character to level 8.

Not saying it can't make for a good story, but it changes the stories you can tell, and how those play is often quite different. If you'll notice, those Hobbits were the adventure, and then the more experienced characters became involved after the fact. Aragorn didn't just decide to bring some Hobbits along as he was off to destroy the Ring. Luke finds the hidden message in R2, and brought Obi-Wan into action. He didn't attach himself to an Obi-Wan that was off adventuring at the time.

From a narrativist standpoint, experienced adventurers have little reason to trust inexperienced ones. From a mechanical standpoint, there's not much a Fighter 3 can contribute to the kinds of quests a Fighter 17 finds themselves involved with. But I'm getting off track here. Ultimately, my point is that I don't think this reading of the spell makes much sense in the larger design space, if you need a specific campaign style for it to do anything at all.

[RickAllison]

Aragorn adventured with a bunch of lowly Hobbits. Obi-wan adventured with an upstart farm-boy.

A lot of great stories have significant level disparities between the heroes, at least at first. The way XP requirements scale, lower level characters will close the gap pretty fast... the XP required to advance that level 15 Fighter up to 16 is almost enough to raise a level 1 character to level 8.

Obi-Wan was a Mary Sue DMPC who was killed off when the players found him overtaking the action.

LotR started out as a low-level adventure (the four hobbits) while Strider was designed as a DMPC guide. A little ways in, the players found themselves not enjoying their time as low-level and wanted to try a more heroic story than hiding from enemies. So Aragorn was a Strider who had his backstory re-written by the player who took him over, while the others became Gimli, Boromir, and Legolas. Unfortunately, the player who was playing Frodo and would play Boromir was unable to attend for a while, so Frodo was given a sickness to cover. This also explains why Boromir betrayed the party, he wasn't there for the social contract creation.

After the player of Boromir broke the contract and the campaign was sidetracked? The group broke apart. Three of the players wanted to continue, but the attempts to find someone to flesh out the party kind of fell through and one of the players wanted to try DMing. So the main DM did a heroic campaign for the three original players, one of them made an RP-heavy campaign for two TTRPG veterans (Merry and Pippin), and the main made a stealth CaS campaign for two players which the player of Boromir tried to join later on (Sam, Frodo, and Gollum). The main DM organized the plot and so the adventure continued!

[MaxWilson]

Would not such a campaign structure be difficult to use for most printed or classic adventure paths? Why is the neophyte Wizard journeying with the epic Fighter 15 on his quest to slay the horrible demon plaguing the land? After losing her valued companions at the hand of the evil tyrant they were seeking to depose, why would the Ranger 13 seek out a new Urchin Rogue fresh off the streets instead of recruiting some skilled higher-up of the Thieves Guild assisting them?

It seems to me that your reading only gives meaning to the spell in a specific style of campaign, one which I can't find much evidence of it being the standard for design assumptions.

Beats me. I don't use adventure paths. My intuition based on past experience is that it would probably work out okay--printed adventure paths are unlikely to be harder than homebrew stuff, and besides, the shape of the XP table is such that low-level PCs rapidly rocket up to mid-levels and from then on they are just fine and no longer fragile. There's not all that much difference between an 8th level Barbarian and a 14th level Barbarian in 5E; the differences are a matter of degree, not kind, and tactics tends to matter more than stats.

As far as why the wizard is journeying with the fighter: not only does a lot of really great fantasy literature center on heterogeneity, but the wizard is also capable of contributing to the party in the 5E ruleset. When Spike the 15th level Battlemaster needs to fight a demon or a werewolf, who does he turn to? Rincewind the 3rd level wizard, that's who! Rincewind will enchant Spike's weapon with magic so it can hurt the demon. Rincewind can also Enlarge Silent Bob the Barbarian to allow him to grapple adult dragons; he can keep himself safe during combat with Expeditious Retreat while he flings Fire Bolts; he can Mage Armor Jan the Moon Druid to improve his AC in beast form; he can cast Rope Trick to give the party a safe place to hide and/or rest from foes. Who cares if he's "only" 3rd level? He's useful!

And there aren't any random high-level thieves lurking in the Thieves' Guild for hire. There's bad guys, and there's weak low-level guys, and there's the PCs. That's it.

And that's the kind of campaign my hypothetical Reincarnate variant is designed for.

[georgie_leech]

Beats me. I don't use adventure paths. My intuition based on past experience is that it would probably work out okay--printed adventure paths are unlikely to be harder than homebrew stuff, and besides, the shape of the XP table is such that low-level PCs rapidly rocket up to mid-levels and from then on they are just fine and no longer fragile. There's not all that much difference between an 8th level Barbarian and a 14th level Barbarian in 5E; the differences are a matter of degree, not kind, and tactics tends to matter more than stats.

As far as why the wizard is journeying with the fighter: not only does a lot of really great fantasy literature center on heterogeneity, but the wizard is also capable of contributing to the party in the 5E ruleset. When Spike the 15th level Battlemaster needs to fight a demon or a werewolf, who does he turn to? Rincewind the 3rd level wizard, that's who! Rincewind will enchant Spike's weapon with magic so it can hurt the demon. Rincewind can also Enlarge Silent Bob the Barbarian to allow him to grapple adult dragons; he can keep himself safe during combat with Expeditious Retreat while he flings Fire Bolts; he can Mage Armor Jan the Moon Druid to improve his AC in beast form; he can cast Rope Trick to give the party a safe place to hide and/or rest from foes. Who cares if he's "only" 3rd level? He's useful!

And there aren't any random high-level thieves lurking in the Thieves' Guild for hire. There's bad guys, and there's weak low-level guys, and there's the PCs. That's it.

And that's the kind of campaign my hypothetical Reincarnate variant is designed for.

Hypothetical? Oops, I thought you were presenting this as the way the spell worked by default. Carry on, objection withdrawn. :smallsmile:

[Temperjoke]

I dunno, seems like a lot of work and chance for someone attempting to optimize to that extent. I mean, they'd have to be non-optimized for a while to get to this method's prime spot for suicide/reincarnate. Maybe I shouldn't underestimate what people would be willing to do, but I don't think I'd be playing at a table with a player making these sort of convoluted schemes anyways, cause it clashes with how I enjoy the game.