D&D 3.5 - Question about AC

[runnice]

Hey guys!

First time here!

We have a big problem on our group.

I have one character Warrior 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ iaijutsu master 1.

Our swashbuclker give the charism bonus on AC.

Our Iaijutsu give the Intelligence bonus on AC.

So, can we add these bonus on AC or we cannont do it? Are there some rules describing that problem?

Thank you all and sorry for my bad english! ^^

Kisses!

Nadja (Runnice)

[Denomar]

The Swashbuckler class in 3.5 doesn't add charisma to ac from any of its abilities. Which version are you using?

The rule of thumb is that abilities which provide the same type of bonus do not stack, with the exception of untyped bonuses, and dodge bonuses.

Iaijutsu Master explicitly states that it adds your intelligence modifier to your Dexterity Bonus to armor. So without seeing what source your swashbuckler is from I can't tell you with 100% certainty, but, if it is a different type than a dexterity bonus than yes it should stack.

[Darrin]

I have one character Warrior 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ iaijutsu master 1.

Our swashbuclker give the charism bonus on AC.

Our Iaijutsu give the Intelligence bonus on AC.

So, can we add these bonus on AC or we cannont do it? Are there some rules describing that problem?


Warrior usually refers to an NPC class in the DMG (at least in the English version). Do you mean Fighter?

Swashbuckler is a prestige class in Complete Warrior. They do not get a Charisma bonus to AC, at least not in the English version. They do get a +1 Dodge bonus, but not until 5th level, and +4 over 20 levels isn't really game-breaking.

Iaijutsu Master gets Canny Defense, which does add Intelligence bonus to AC, but only when they are wielding a katana, and only when they would normally get a Dexterity bonus. Any condition where a creature would lose their Dexterity bonus would also mean they lose their Intelligence bonus: flat-footed, blind, invisible attacker, etc. On top of those, if the PC hasn't drawn a katana yet, or gets disarmed, they lose the bonus.

I'm not entirely sure what the problem is here, but it sounds like the player is stacking up a lot of AC bonuses and is almost untouchable in combat. It's hard to do this unless they somehow wound up with amazing ability scores, as they would have to have very high Dexterity, Intelligence, and Charisma. Assuming they have done this... you could ask them to reroll their ability scores or use a point-buy method so their scores are more reasonable.

Another way to minimize very high AC is to use Battlefield Control Spells (entangle, solid fog, black tentacles, wall of thorns, etc.) or area-effect spells (fireball, cone of cold, ice storm, flame strike, etc.) that don't care about AC.

Other methods:

Do what the English did at the Battle of Crécy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cr%C3%A9cy): add a few hundred archers. Yeah, most of them will miss, but for every 100 archers, 5 of them will roll a natural 20, and that's at least 5d8 damage. Or 1st level kobold sorcerers with a wand of magic missiles. 100d4+100 damage.

Invisible attackers. Pixies, petals, sylphs.

Send him a letter. He can't dodge explosive runes. "P.S. You're playing like a twit. Stop it."

[Zombimode]

I'm not entirely sure what the problem is here,

Uhm, how do you infer that there actually IS a problem (instead of just a question on how stacking works)?

[Darrin]

Uhm, how do you infer that there actually IS a problem (instead of just a question on how stacking works)?

I'm not sure if the problem is from the player or DM's viewpoint: "Does this work so I will have an unkillable PC and I can make the DM poop kittens as he desperately tries to stop me?" or "One of my players is doing this and ruining the fun for everyone else, how do I get him to stop being a complete asshat?"

I assumed the latter, but that's probably a mistake on my part.

[torrasque666]

I'm not sure if the problem is from the player or DM's viewpoint: "Does this work so I will have an unkillable PC and I can make the DM poop kittens as he desperately tries to stop me?" or "One of my players is doing this and ruining the fun for everyone else, how do I get him to stop being a complete asshat?"

I assumed the latter, but that's probably a mistake on my part.
Dude, its a simple question on stacking. Not every post from a DM about a player is a problem to be solved. In this case, its just a simple question about stacking effects. If anything, the problem is "how does stacking work with various abilities" and has nothing to do with a player.

[JNAProductions]

Hey guys!

First time here!

We have a big problem on our group.

I have one character Warrior 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ iaijutsu master 1.

Our swashbuclker give the charism bonus on AC.

Our Iaijutsu give the Intelligence bonus on AC.

So, can we add these bonus on AC or we cannont do it? Are there some rules describing that problem?

Thank you all and sorry for my bad english! ^^

Kisses!

Nadja (Runnice)

Something makes me think there is a problem.

[runnice]

It's a problem because the DM think isnt stack and a player think it's stack. Cuz he did a great combo stacking AC from Int, Dex and Cha.

He's a cat folk with dex 25, Charisma 20, int 14 so he got +7(DEX) +5(CAR) +2(INT) +1(Natural armor) on AC naked (without armor). So he have 25 Naked AC.

We are using a different version of Swashbuckler.

Thank you everybody to answer me!

<3

Kisses

Nadja (Runnice)

[Red Fel]

We are using a different version of Swashbuckler.

This makes it hard to answer your question.

For example, there is a difference between "Add X stat to Y bonus," and "Use X stat in place of another for Y bonus." Similarly, some abilities explicitly state that they do or don't stack with other, similar abilities (although, given that this is the issue, I'm guessing the ability in question doesn't say).

The general rule has been stated - the same type of bonus, or a bonus from the same source or with the same name, doesn't stack with itself. So, for example, two different class features called "AC Bonus" which let you add your Wis to AC probably wouldn't stack, because they have the same name and provide the same type of bonus to the same thing. But an AC bonus that adds Cha? That's a definite maybe.

But not knowing what class you're working with, it's very difficult to say with any certainty.

[Mehangel]

I would say that AC 25 at level 7 isnt exactly game breaking. If you are trying to make combat a challenge against the creature. Attack the creature while it is flat-footed, or denied its dex bonus to AC (That should drop the character's AC dramatically).

To do this you can use simple tricks such as attacking while invisible, blinding the player, utilizing skill tricks found in Complete Scoundrel, feinting, etc). These can also be combined with other debuffs such as entangle and bestow curse, which will also drop the character's AC dramatically.

Something else to think about is that there are probably more ways to increase attack, than there are ways to increase ac. Make sure that you add up the appropriate bonuses such as elevation, flanking, etc.

The point is, AC is also only one facet of defense for a character, and AC 25 is nowhere near as high as it could be.

EDIT: Also, how are the character's other saves. I ask because I am one who actually enjoy making High AC characters, but usually end up sacrificing another aspect of my character in doing so. For example, I might never be able to be hit, but I might have very low damage (when I do rarely hit), or I might have high AC but a low Fortitude save. Find out what facet of the character is weakest, and exploit it. If the character has a low Will Save, target him with charms (and attack his party members with him) or illusions (and disable him altogether). If the character has a low Fort Save, target him with poisons or diseases (and watch as his build falls apart). If the character has a low Reflex save (although I doubt it), target the character with area of effect spells to which the high AC means NOTHING.

[DarkSoul]

If your version of Swashbuckler says you can use your Charisma modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier for AC then no, Charisma wouldn't stack. Intelligence does from Iaijutsu master because it's just increasing your Dexterity modifier.

Also, I think everyone should keep in mind that this is an unarmored AC at level 7. Add armor on top of that and the DM might be frustrated because they can't hit the character.

From what we know, all the AC boosts should stack. If the DM is still having a problem with the character they need to find ways to remove its Dex bonus, because that will take the Intelligence bonus with it which is a 9 point AC drop.

[AvatarVecna]

Here's the basics for stacking things in D&D.

1) Every bonus has a type.

2) You cannot have multiple bonuses to the same stat (Str, AC, Will Save, whatever) that are of the same bonus type, unless that type is Dodge or (sometimes) Circumstance.

3) If a bonus does not have a listed type, it is "untyped". An untyped bonus can stack with another untyped bonus, but not if the untyped bonuses come from the same source (for instance, if wearing a special ear piercing gave you an Untyped +1 to Intelligence, you could not have your ears pierced 20 times to get an Untyped +20 to Intelligence).

[Mehangel]

Also, I think everyone should keep in mind that this is an unarmored AC at level 7. Add armor on top of that and the DM might be frustrated because they can't hit the character.

I understand that this is unarmored AC at level 7. But to be honest, I've had a couple level 1 characters with 25+ AC (some of them I think were also unarmored). Having really high AC doesnt actually break the game unless it is combined with other high stats. The point that I am making is that even if the character armored has 30 or even 33 AC it isnt really going to impact the game. From what I can see the character is a melee build, which means that if attacked at range with area effects, charms, compulsions, etc, the character will have little defense against them. If the character armored has higher than 33 AC well, thats a bit pointless now isn't it? I mean the character will still be hit on a Nat 20, and the wealth used to bring him up that high was for not.

[TheIronGolem]

Also, I think everyone should keep in mind that this is an unarmored AC at level 7. Add armor on top of that and the DM might be frustrated because they can't hit the character.

Bear in mind that the INT bonus is coming from Canny Defense, which only works when unarmored. You could add Bracers of Armor to that, but those are much worse than actual armor. And as others have mentioned, there are plenty of ways to deal with a dodge-monkey.

[Necroticplague]

2) You cannot have multiple bonuses to the same stat (Str, AC, Will Save, whatever) that are of the same bonus type, unless that type is Dodge or (sometimes) Circumstance.


All racial bonuses also stack. Usually doesn't come up unless you're using templates.

That said, gonna have to see the Swashbuckler before being able to answer the question with certainty. However, if it's worded remotely like most things of a similar nature, the answer is probably "yes". And it's not a big deal, because AC is only one form of defence, and that simply means one form of attack has a good chance of not working, while letting plenty of other types get by.