Need help to build something useful

[Masamourne]

Hi everyone!

After a long time with no RPG life source in our lives, my friends and I reunited again to roll dices and be happy. Our D&D 3.5 group LV 3~4 consists in:

1 Elf Psychic Rogue [who have more "psychic" than "rogue"]
1 Drow dread necromancer [ new guy in the group, new at 3.5]
1 Tiefling Ranger [the Ranged build #LegolasWannabe]
1 Elf Druid [He can't CoDzilla yet, it's new at 3.5]
1 Random guy that don't know what will do
1 Random guy that don't know what will do AND ARE POSTING HERE [haha]

By the looks of the party and "for the sake of the plot", i have 2 ideas:

1º - If the other guy takes an melee fighter or equivalent, I will go Aasimar Paladin [For the Plot of the campaign! Whooaa]
2º - If the other guy takes other classes or tank, i'll go with some hack'n'slash [Warblade TWF and other PrC]

All about the warblade are OK, but if I have to do an Aasimar Paladin, i don't have a f*ckin idea hahahaha

I want to build some Almighty Paladin, shiny armor and tanking all the **** around.
Preferences and rules:
- NEED TO BE AASIMAR, my mind set the Race and no one can retire [neither me]
- It will use a hammer [Thor?]
- No mount Dependant

Books Allowed by our DM:
- All "Completes" [scoundrel, arcane, divine etc]
- PHB I and II
- ToB
- Libris Mortis
- Expanded Psionics
- Vile of Darkness
- Frostburn [hahaha don't know why]
- All monster manuals [if it will be useful]


OBS: sorry about the english, i'm not from 'Murika.

[BowStreetRunner]

Before you go Paladin, are you sure there won't be a problem being in the party with the Necromancer? Do you know the alignment of the Necromancer?

[Manyasone]

Before you go Paladin, are you sure there won't be a problem being in the party with the Necromancer? Do you know the alignment of the Necromancer?
This.
Even if the necro is neutral, the moment he starts animating... Ohboy

[prufock]

If tanking is what you want, why not go for a Crusader instead? They have a delayed damage pool, maneuvers that grant damage reduction, and just as good a base as the paladin.

[Troacctid]

Use the lesser or savage progression version of the Aasimar so you can avoid the +1 LA.

[Divide by Zero]

Consider Crusader instead of Paladin. It's a generally stronger class, so it fits your "useful" criterion better, and doesn't have as much risk of clashing with the necromancer.

[HolyDraconus]

Consider Crusader instead of Paladin. It's a generally stronger class, so it fits your "useful" criterion better, and doesn't have as much risk of clashing with the necromancer.

Or duskblade with initiator feats. Or if the champion must be played, a Knight can get away with some silly things at higher levels (nah, i dont feel like dying. Nope. I said no. Nuh huh. )

[Masamourne]

Oh god, so many replies! *-*


Neutral necro, certainly.
About the alignment, it won't be a problem, the DM secure the game flow... If he can't, Hammer Time is here to solve everything.

The +LA won't be a problem too, we will see all the selected races and adjust the initial level of all players.

About the other classes, it's true that crusader are better [maneuvers OP], duskblades can do that and knights are so classy.

I see myself challenged [by myself] to do an Paladin for the frontline. All other paladins I saw in those years sucks... Or are "Smiteaholics". If this can be made, i would like to be the paladin who talk "Get over here, bro." beating his chest facing the enemies.


To be clear, what i need to know is exactly:

- Is there a way to be "the holy shield of the party" as paladin? if yes, how it can be done? Useful feats, spells and other stuff.

I know its not the best option available, but it seems to be the option that I will have fun. If there's no way then, i should use the Knight or the other options mentioned.


Oh wait, i forgot. Its the beginning of the campaign, but i want to plan almost all the progression through the levels.


Finally, thanks for listening and great help everyone ^^

[Troacctid]

The +LA won't be a problem too, we will see all the selected races and adjust the initial level of all players.
It'll be a problem for you if you're a level below the rest of the party, is the point. That's a pretty serious blow to your effectiveness—especially if you're trying to be the tank and you're missing an extra chunk of HP due to fewer hit dice. No reason to have to deal with that when you can just use the +0 LA variant and get an extra class level instead.


- Is there a way to be "the holy shield of the party" as paladin? if yes, how it can be done? Useful feats, spells and other stuff.
There are a couple Paladin spells that help with this. Mostly Shield Other, which, for 1 hour/level, gives the subject a +1 deflection bonus to AC and a +1 resistance bonus to saves, and makes it so that half of all damage they would take is dealt to you instead. It's a 2nd level spell, so you don't gain it until level 8. Get to know the Paladin spell list—including spells from the Spell Compendium and other books—because there are some good ones, and if you're just preparing junk like Cure Light Wounds, you are wasting your spell slots.

You also need to leverage your mount, because it's by far your most powerful class feature. Don't just get a dumb warhorse, pick one of the better mounts. For example, choosing a unicorn as your mount is great, since it comes with healing and a Magic Circle against Evil and stuff.

This all assumes you're using the Paladin base class, as opposed to one of the better versions of it, like Ordained Champion, Fist of Raziel, Champion of Gwynharwyf, Hellreaver, Prestige Paladin, Cleric, etc.


I know its not the best option available, but it seems to be the option that I will have fun. If there's no way then, i should use the Knight or the other options mentioned.
Knight is significantly worse than Paladin, so don't let anyone talk you into taking it instead.

[Divide by Zero]

Knight is significantly worse than Paladin, so don't let anyone talk you into taking it instead.

Aren't they both Tier 5? Though Paladin probably has a higher optimization ceiling thanks to better support.

[Troacctid]

Aren't they both Tier 5? Though Paladin probably has a higher optimization ceiling thanks to better support.
Knight is T5, Paladin is T4.

[Masamourne]

Where i find this +0 LA variant?

And about the mount, I never imaginated that this is SO important to the Pally. I only know the warhorse users haha

Now i see that i know nothing like Jon Snow about paladins ahahahaha

[Troacctid]

Lesser planetouched (including lesser aasimar) are found in Player's Guide to Faerun.

The savage progression version is found here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a). (Just use the base race, don't take the racial level.)

[killianh]

I would suggest starting with the paladin handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.ca/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html) then Waazraaths paladin build compendium (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10057) and Paladin build compendium 2.0 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8971) to get a good start up point

[Septimus]

Your description of the paladin roughly fits what I have made once for a campaign, even if it was a bit higher level. For a nice paladin in 3.5, my advice is "don't do a paladin". My character was build like : Cleric 1 (Domain Law/War, dropping the Law domain for the Law devotion), Paladin 3 (for the divine grace and turn undead), Fighter 2 (for the extra feat you'd need, but that's optional depending your exact build), then Pious Templar 2, Divine Crusader 2 (War domain). Focus on Divine feat (Divine Shield for AC, Divine Might for damage) and divine Metamagic to persist the War domain spells. This way, you have tremendous saves thanks to a high charisma and the mettle to use it in battle to ignore most annoying effects (later on, you can purchase a ring of evasion to mostly ignore most harmful spells). You even have access to the wands of the cleric. There are several class to multiclass, but they are all thematic toward a nice tank character with correct damage potential.

My character dumped Wis (11) and I even took Weak Willed flaw (-3 Will) and still had a +18 Will save by level 10.

[Gildedragon]

So for the Paladin option: Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Prestige Paladin 3*/RKV 10

You probably want the Spell or Magic domain to get some wizard spellcasting available to the party

*ask the DM if they allow Paladin variants on the prestige paladin; of note would by Mystic Fire Knight, ask how the caster level works: normal pally CL is 1/2 Pal Level, MFK is 1/2+2... would that mean that PrestPal MFK gets 2 more "advance spellcasting class" levels right at the start (at levels 2 & 4 )? if so, take Paladin to 4...
Also ask if you need the ride skills and mounted combat feat if you swap out the mount for some other paladin variant (charging smite perhaps)?

By holy shield: do you mean drawing fire? Yeah there is: The Knight class has an ability at level 4 that gives that.
Option:
Knight 4, Cloistered Cleric 1, Prestige Paladin 3...

[Troacctid]

By holy shield: do you mean drawing fire? Yeah there is: The Knight class has an ability at level 4 that gives that.
Option:
Knight 4, Cloistered Cleric 1, Prestige Paladin 3...
The Knight ability in question is very weak, though. It is certainly not worth taking 4 levels in Knight.

[Gildedragon]

The Knight ability in question is very weak, though. It is certainly not worth taking 4 levels in Knight.
To be fair; I ain't fond of knights myself... But the challenge is the only way I know of to "compel" characters to engage one in a fight... And I don't think there's a feat or PRC that advances it.

One could go for an Intimidate sort of build but I see that driving folk away from attacking one

[Troacctid]

To be fair; I ain't fond of knights myself... But the challenge is the only way I know of to "compel" characters to engage one in a fight... And I don't think there's a feat or PRC that advances it.

One could go for an Intimidate sort of build but I see that driving folk away from attacking one
There are other ways to do it. However, most enemies will effectively be forced to fight you anyway if you engage them in melee and physically block them from reaching your allies, unless you demonstrate yourself to be weak enough that your attacks of opportunity aren't worth respecting (or unless they have Tumble, but most enemies don't have Tumble), so you generally don't need anything special. Furthermore, if your goal is to keep enemies off your allies' backs, there are far more effective ways to do it other than compelling them to attack you—for example, compelling them to run away, or compelling them to stand in place and do nothing, both of which should be easy enough to do if you can get them to fail a DC 12 + Cha saving throw.

[Masamourne]

killianh - wooooooow thanks so much

septimus - holy **** [jokes here?] thats cool! but no sure if the DM will allow more than 2 dips: class 1 / class 2 / class 3

guigarci - spell is not the true focus of my surreal paladin, hahaha, but i will have a look (must have if i take sword of the arcane order)


So, what i have until now:

Troacctid showed me the savage variant of the Aasimar
Killianh showed me the ubercharger paladin, i will need help with this "totem thing" i don't know
Ravenknight build sounds cool, but i need enlightment about its effectiveness

battle blessing seems amazing!

that alternative class feature in Dictum Mortuum, spirit of combat is not a good option too for the "tank"?


later i'll talk to my DM to see if Players Guide to Faerun are allowed to be used, not sure yet.

[prufock]

It sounds like you have a low-to-moderate optimization level among your group, so Paladin should be a viable class. If you want to be primarily a paladin, I would at least dip Crusader for a level or two for Iron Guard's Glare, Defensive Rebuke, Thicket of Blades, some healing maneuvers, and some DR-granting maneuvers from Stone Dragon. The Stone Power feat will keep you fighting longer.

[Masamourne]

Exactly!

In addition to the DM, only I have knowledge of optimization in the game (except paladin, as you can see ahahaha). The others play different RPG systems and are present only for long fun and to know more about D&D 3.5.

[Feint's End]

As another poster has already posted there are some very good guides on the paladin. Start with those.

A well built paladin can arguably reach a good level in t3. It includes being mostly wisdom based via serenity though. Anybody knows the build here? Otherwise I will go digging for it.

Edit: also you might want to ask your dm for being able to play a pathfinder paladin instead. The class is just so much better designed and works well without any tweaking. Just take the special weapon instead of the mount and you won't even need to take a mount into consideration. Also it isn't really overpowered in any meaning of the word (yes you will deal lots of dmg versus evil enemies but that is what the paladin is all about).

To use it in 3.5 simply use all the class abilities of the pathfinder paladin, while keeping skills, spells and feats from 3.5. Should work fairly well this way. Here is the Link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin) if you are interested.

[Deadline]

To be fair; I ain't fond of knights myself... But the challenge is the only way I know of to "compel" characters to engage one in a fight... And I don't think there's a feat or PRC that advances it.

One could go for an Intimidate sort of build but I see that driving folk away from attacking one

There are a couple of others:


The Goad Feat
Devoted Spirit stances like Iron Guard Glare can make attacking you be the most favorable option.
There is a two feat chain in Drow of the Underdark that lets you intercept attacks against an ally and force them to be rolled against you.
And a host of lesser methods that can be effective when stacked up. Stuff like Shield Other, or a Shield of Arrow Catching, etc.


And the only way to enhance the Knights Challenge is to take more levels of Knight, which isn't exactly a great idea (barring a very low-op group).

[Gildedragon]

There are a couple of others:


The Goad Feat
Devoted Spirit stances like Iron Guard Glare can make attacking you be the most favorable option.
There is a two feat chain in Drow of the Underdark that lets you intercept attacks against an ally and force them to be rolled against you.
And a host of lesser methods that can be effective when stacked up. Stuff like Shield Other, or a Shield of Arrow Catching, etc.


And the only way to enhance the Knights Challenge is to take more levels of Knight, which isn't exactly a great idea (barring a very low-op group).

... Oh and Luck feats like Good Karma. I derped there something serious.

Yeah so pure crusader is probably the best option. Maybe a couple level dip into paladin if you really want the abilities of it...
In which case I'd go: Paladin 4, Crusader X...
There are quite a few paladin options around there like trading Aura of Courage for lending your fighting defensively bonus to adjacent allies.

[Pyromancer999]

If you're looking to go single-classed, the A-Game Paladin (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471332-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin-%28Tempest_Stormwind%29) is rarely a bad idea.

If you're going to aim to be a meatshield/tank, though, Crusader may be a better base class.

[Deadline]

Given the party comp in the OP, I think I'd go so far as to recommend a Bard, although I don't think that fits with what the OP has in mind (some warrior type). Perhaps a "From Smite to Song" paladin? There's a substitution level in one of the Faerun books that gives Paladins the Bard Inspire Courage ability.

[AnimeTheCat]

I enjoy the Paladin class a lot and have played many a paladin in my D&D life. That being said, I also see why Crusader is good (just not my favorite). For the purposes of pulling enemies in to fight you, Crusader covers that well. I would say Paladin 4/Crusader 2/Fist of Raziel 10 is a pretty solid investment. You level up to Paladin 4 to get the prerequisite Divine Favor spell, take power attack at 1st, servant of the heavens at 3rd. Enter the class at level 7 since there's a crummy +6 BAB requirement. Other options are to just go Paladin 6/FoR 10/Paladin 4 and take whatever stances or manuvers you want from the martial study feats. That way you get more smites and you get your "get over here" stuff from Crusader. I know you said that you're not going for a "smiteaholic" Paladin, but those smites do give you a fairly strong melee option. Plus, they're free so why not get +cha attack +level damage?!

[Masamourne]

Soo many options =D

Hnmm, let's see the choices we have:

P1- The Feint's End PF Paladin
P2- Savage variant Aasimar [[I]roleplay things and stuff]
P3- The Pyromancer999 A-Game Paladin REALLY [/B]REALLY. But it only work with Illumian, right? if not, this will be [I]the chosen one]
P4- The Guigarci and AnimeTheCat Paladin 4/Crusader X [with this i don't go off so much from the campaign lore]

I don't need to be the face or the greatest damage dealer of the party, just "block and/or resist enemies actions" from advancing through the front line [me] and harm the rest of the group.


Aside from this, there's some questions:
Q1 - Goad[CA] force taunted enemies melee attack the Player? Or force any type of action [spell, ranged attack etc] against the user [in this case, me]?
Q2 - How Stand Still [EPH] work mechanically?
Q3 - If i take sword of the arcane order AND battle blessing, the 2nd feat act in the spells of the 1st feat?
Q4 - There's some Paladin ACF that boost her "defender" side?



PS: wow, i've becoming better on paladin things haha... thanks everyone o/

[Gildedragon]

Golden Cup trades Aura of Courage for giving companions AC bonus
Spirit Guardian paladin trades mount for a spirit that can heal and do other things

[Ahus]

I know it is far afield from your concept but I can't help but notice that your team's only arcane caster is a Dread Necromancer. You might consider a utility caster from a practical perspective.

[Troacctid]

P3- The Pyromancer999 A-Game Paladin REALLY [/B]REALLY. But it only work with Illumian, right? if not, this will be [I]the chosen one]
The build supposedly uses illumian to reduce MADness. However, due to a rules error by the original author, the trick doesn't work—although you can use Strength to determine bonus spell slots, you still need a minimum Wisdom score to cast your spells, so the build as presented is unable to cast any spells at all without magic items to boost Wis, or a higher point buy (32 points works, 28 doesn't). So, since the illumian thing doesn't actually work anyway, I guess there's no reason why you couldn't do it as an aasimar instead.

The build also uses features that are exclusive to Mystra alongside features that are exclusive to Milil, which is not normally allowed, as the two are supposed to be mutually incompatible. However, if your DM overlooks this, the build can work. (I think it is somewhat oversold, though—inspire courage is not nearly as good as the author makes it out to be, especially when you don't even get Words of Creation until level 15, which is 9 levels later than a bard.)

I disagree with the decision to trade away the mount. A unicorn mount is much more useful than the divine spirit.


Aside from this, there's some questions:
Q1 - Goad[CA] force taunted enemies melee attack the Player? Or force any type of action [spell, ranged attack etc] against the user [in this case, me]?
No. It only prevents enemies from making melee attacks against your allies. They can still make ranged attacks, cast spells, move, or do anything other than make melee attacks, and Goad will do nothing to stop them. Also, if they're not standing right next to you, it doesn't restrict their melee attacks either. It also allows a saving throw, and has no effect at all on a large percentage of creatures. Do not take the feat. It is very bad.


Q2 - How Stand Still [EPH] work mechanically?
Instead of making an attack of opportunity to damage an enemy who moves out of your threatened area, you can attempt to halt their movement.

It is generally weaker than the Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) feat, which can stop their movement while still dealing damage. However, it is a little more reliable, since an opposed Strength check is usually easier to pass than a Reflex save.


Q3 - If i take sword of the arcane order AND battle blessing, the 2nd feat act in the spells of the 1st feat?
No. Battle Blessing applies to paladin spells. Sword of the Arcane Order allows you to prepare wizard spells in paladin spell slots, but they are still wizard spells, not paladin spells.


Q4 - There's some Paladin ACF that boost her "defender" side?
Yes, a few. They're pretty much all in Champions of Valor, so have a look at that book.

[Masamourne]

Guigarci, where I find the Spirit Guardian ACF? My google-fu is limited morning in the job.

EDIT: nvm, its the divine spirit ACF quoted after hahaha


Ahus, Actually, I agree with you, this group is not close to being a group prepared for situations and fill roles consistently. But all these years I always played with characters who controlled the situation completely (Codzilla, mage gods, master bluff bards and stuff), the situation now is something like "Let them stay with the main stage while I hold the problems there in the backstage"

Let them sweat a little to be stars sometimes haha

Troacctid, The scenario of the campaign is created by the DM, then feats limited by region, as there are in Eberron etc., are partially allowed(after passing through "overpower filter" DM).

You could help me develop this Fred Mercury Paladin using Aasimars? Especially that unicorn thing, I wanna sing "Aaaalways, i wanna be with you lalala"

PS: we will do the character sheets tomorrow. Then i will talk to the DM to know if the campaign will use constantly mounts and open fields or not. If not, I'll take one ACF.


sorry people, i have more "reference craze" than Captain America lol

[AnimeTheCat]

So, what I'm seeing is that you want a way to get the enemies to attack you before the rest of the party.

Well... rule number 1 for most enemies that are familiar with "human" tactics is kill the healer. Paladins use wisdom for spells and Charisma for a lot of class abilities so Aasimar is a really great race for them. If you're doing a point buy system you'll probably want to raise your charisma to a 16 so that your racial modifier will bring it to an 18 and your wisdom to a 12 so that the racial modifier brings it to a 14 and lets you cast all your paladin spells. Clerics also cast spells based off of wisdom so maybe being a cleric (which can be equally good as a tank) fits the idea that you're going for a bit better than paladin. If you are a cleric you'll also get more spells sooner that can act as a party "shield" as well as providing much needed healing spells across the group. Granted, the Druid can do that.

Another option to make yourself the primary target is to stand in front of whoever the healer is and force the fight to come to you. This will utilize more knock-down and stand still tactics, but is ultimately forcing combat on your own terms. If you stand between the opposition and the rest of your fairly squishy/ranged oriented party, this will force them to go through you first. Granted, with this tactic you will have to worry about tumble, fly, etc. to get around you.

One way that you may be able to get the opposition to target you above the others is if you take Perform (Act) and "Act" like a cleric or healer then turn around and smite the enemies faces off. That's incredibly gamey, but could work. You may be able to convince your DM that you can do that through roleplay, but that's neither here nor there.

I don't know what exactly you're beholden to, but its my opinion that Cleric fits a little better as a "Holy Shield" than a Paladin simply because of better spells. That being said, I personally don't like Crusader over Paladin. That's just my opinion. Granted, you get the delayed damage pool, but with only a 2 level dip in Crusader, you're only delaying 5 points of damage, MAX. If you're looking to use the delayed damage pool, you need as many levels of crusader as you can get and it doesn't lend well to dipping. On top of that, the furious counterstrike ability is far inferior to the smite that paladins get. After taking 1-9 damage, you deal an extra 1 damage and get +1 on your attack, you can furious counterstrike more than you can smite is the tradeoff. So even then, you get some cool maneuvers and stances, but you don't guarantee which maneuvers you get and when you get them. Its random.

Here's my thoughts for a "Holy Shield" that seems like it fits your party:
Paladin 3/Cleric 4/Fist of Raziel 10/Cleric 3
You get all the goodies from Paladin like Smite (needed for FoR), Detect Evil (at will), Divine Grace, Lay on hands (not a lot i'll admit, but you can stabilize without wasting spells), Aura of Courage, and Divine Health, proficiency in all martial weapons, then you get lots of spells from your cleric class which can be continued with FoR. This plan keeps you as a primary combatant who can buff the party, debuff the enemy, heal (in a couple ways), and still lets you be very tanky (thanks to armor, shield, and other buffs you can put on yourself). Feats could go any number of direction. You can focus on making yourself "shield dependent" and take Shield Specialization (Heavy) at first level and Shield Ward at 3rd level. That will grant you your shield bonus to Touch attacks, bull rush attempts, grapple attempts, and some other ones that I can't remember off the top of my head. This keeps you viable through the whole game and I think it fits your character concept. The only reason I would say that deviation from this would be a "good" idea is if it is Cursader 1 ONLY for the Iron Guard Glare stance, but that penalty only applies to opponents you threaten so its limited in its usefulness and not worth the loss in casting ability from Cleric, in my opinion.

[Masamourne]

Last news: We will begin the campaign next week, so I have more time to plan this "holy guy".


The campaign will begin at lvl 3;
The initial stats are 15, 14, 13, 12, 11 and 10 (i will chose one of these numbers for each attribute);
It's a new world created by the DM, but we are free to insert locations, cites and other regions in the Lore [helloooo substitution levels];
And finally, ALL THE BOOKS are allowed ONLY if We have own the book (or the PDF version). Thanks internet for existing.



In a few hours [coming home] I se your post AnimeTheCat o/

[AnimeTheCat]

Here's what I propose. It feels to me like it will fit in to your campaign pretty solidly since it is fairly low OP.

Lesser Aasimar


Attribute
Score


Str
12


Dex
11


Con
13


Int
10


Wis
15+2


Cha
14+2



At 4th level put the one point in to Dex. Since you will hopefully be wearing Full Plate its likely that you won't want to be raising this any higher. Put the 8th level point in to wisdom to get to the next modifier. I would recommend the 12th and 16th level points go in to Charisma to boos your saves a point and get an extra point of smite damage. The last point can go anywhere but probably in Con.



1st
Paladin
Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day
Shield Specialization (Heavy)


2nd
Paladin
Divine Grace, Lay on Hands



3rd
Paladin
Aura of Courage, Divine Health
Power Attack


4th
Cleric
Turn/Rebuke Undead, Spellcasting



5th
Cleric




6th
Cleric

Servant of the Heavens (BoED)


7th
Cleric




8th
Fist of Raziel
Magic Circle, Smite Evil 1/day (Good-Aligned)



9th
Fist of Raziel
Spellcasting Progression
Shield Ward (PHB II)


10th
Fist of Raziel
Smite Evil 2/day (Confirming)



11th
Fist of Raziel
Sanctify Martial Strike



12th
Fist of Raziel
Smite Evil 3/day(Holy)
Sacred Healing (CD)


13th
Fist of Raziel
Sunder Evil Item



14th
Fist of Raziel
Smite Evil 4/day (Fiendsmite)



15th
Fist of Raziel

Extra Smiting


16th
Fist of Raziel
Smite Evil 5/day (Chain)



17th
Fist of Raziel
Holy Martial Strike



18th
Cleric

Whatever tickles your fancy


19th
Cleric




20th
Cleric





Alternatively you can choose to forgo the third paladin level and be a cleric from 3rd to 8th level and you will get 9th level spells. That would require one of your points to go in to Wisdom so that you can cast them. This is far from optimized to the teeth, but it would serve the purpose of tank/shield quite well.

[Soranar]

Hum... I would get rid of the spellcasting if I were you. With a ranger and a druid you have a primary and a secondary healer already. A straight paladin might actually be better for you:

race:lesser Aasimar
template: dragonborn of bahamut (flight aspect since you disregard your mount)

STATS
Str 14 (to hit and damage is useful)
Dex 10 (you can afford a 0 with armor)
Con 15 (tanks need health)
Int 11 (some skillpoints can serve a purpose)
Wis 12 (no spellcasting, dump this)
Cha 17 (useful for saves and lay on hands)

ACF
drop spellcasting for extra feats
drop mount for spirit, it doubles your lay on hands at early levels and you don't lose an action to heal with it (which can be huge) eventually the spirit of combat is better

Support combo

feats

from smite to song

bonus feats
extra smites

With this basic combo you become a useful support class (inspire courage + free action healing from the spirit) while maintaining a decent melee capabality.

combat feats

travel devotion

bonus feats
power attack, extra turning

always important to be able to move and full attack, the extra turns are just there to fuel travel devotion eventually

alternate to wings, get the breath weapon + entangling breath and use it to slow down key enemies

[Gildedragon]

Here's what I propose. It feels to me like it will fit in to your campaign pretty solidly since it is fairly low OP.

Lesser Aasimar


Attribute
Score


Str
12


Dex
11


Con
13


Int
10


Wis
15+2


Cha
14+2



At 4th level put the one point in to Dex. Since you will hopefully be wearing Full Plate its likely that you won't want to be raising this any higher. Put the 8th level point in to wisdom to get to the next modifier. I would recommend the 12th and 16th level points go in to Charisma to boos your saves a point and get an extra point of smite damage. The last point can go anywhere but probably in Con.



1st
Paladin
Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day
Shield Specialization (Heavy)


2nd
Paladin
Divine Grace, Lay on Hands



3rd
Paladin
Aura of Courage, Divine Health
Power Attack


4th
Cleric
Turn/Rebuke Undead, Spellcasting



5th
Cleric




6th
Cleric

Servant of the Heavens (BoED)


7th
Cleric




8th
Fist of Raziel
Magic Circle, Smite Evil 1/day (Good-Aligned)



9th
Fist of Raziel
Spellcasting Progression
Shield Ward (PHB II)


10th
Fist of Raziel
Smite Evil 2/day (Confirming)



11th
Fist of Raziel
Sanctify Martial Strike



12th
Fist of Raziel
Smite Evil 3/day(Holy)
Sacred Healing (CD)


13th
Fist of Raziel
Sunder Evil Item



14th
Fist of Raziel
Smite Evil 4/day (Fiendsmite)



15th
Fist of Raziel

Extra Smiting


16th
Fist of Raziel
Smite Evil 5/day (Chain)



17th
Fist of Raziel
Holy Martial Strike



18th
Cleric

Whatever tickles your fancy


19th
Cleric




20th
Cleric





Alternatively you can choose to forgo the third paladin level and be a cleric from 3rd to 8th level and you will get 9th level spells. That would require one of your points to go in to Wisdom so that you can cast them. This is far from optimized to the teeth, but it would serve the purpose of tank/shield quite well.

The 1st-8th level load out I'd go for is Cleric 2 Crusader 3, PPal 3... And then continue with FoRaziel it is so much better for casting; BAB stays the same or gets better. You get a couple crusader moves in...

[Masamourne]

Thanks guys!

Can I use more than one ACF in the class?

All the builds showed here seems good to me, the only thing that I don't know if will pass is the dragonborn thing.

The paladin's spells are worthy to take or not to trade for ACF?

And soranar, the ranger will be a full arrow shooter, only the druid will support with it.



But thinking better now, we have a group full of summons. Necromancer summons, druid animal companion (he already chose an wolf like animal) and animal summons , ranger animal companion. With this I can be a more offensive than full defender.
Something:
40% offensive / 60% defensive.

Sword of celestial take my attention. It's similar the ancestral relic feat right?

[Divide by Zero]

Can I use more than one ACF in the class?

As long as they lose different features. For instance, on a paladin, you can use an ACF that loses spellcasting and an ACF that loses the special mount, but you can't use two ACFs that both lose spellcasting.

[AnimeTheCat]

I'm not a huge fan of the prestige paladin, personally. I only let players take it if they provide a really good story reason they don't want to use the base class, but then again I like using the base class paladins for npcs. In my honest opinion paladin 6/For 10/Paladin 4 is a great mix of offense and defense. Lots of smite potential without losing your spells. Another branch to look at is the bardadin build I posted about a week ago. Decent offense, amazing buff potential, and pretty good spells. A lot less tank though but with all the summons I bet you can afford to be a little less tanky. Plus, your music will buff the summons too so that's always pretty grand. On top of it all, you will have loads of skills with the build so there's that too. It will let you and the rogue work together to synergies on skills. You be the face, he be the b&e guy kind of deal.
Here's the link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?488486-The-Bardadin
Just something else to think about, but it does deviate from the holy shield concept.

[Masamourne]

Hnmm, let me try to make this Paladin6/FoR10/paladin4

Race: Lesser Aasimar

Stats:
STR: 14
DEX: 10
CON: 15
INT: 11
WIS: 13 (+2 racial)
CHA: 12 (+2 racial)

LEVEL - CLASSES - FEATS
1st - PALADIN - POWER ATTACK
2nd - PALADIN -
3rd - PALADIN - SHIELD ESPECIALIZATION (HEAVY) (Or other more useful, i'm not in the mood of shield ward)
4th - PALADIN -
5th - PALADIN -
6th - PALADIN - SERVANT OF THE HEAVENS
7th - FIST OF RAZIEL -
8th - FIST OF RAZIEL -
9th - FIST OF RAZIEL - BATTLE BLESSING
10th - FIST OF RAZIEL -
11th - FIST OF RAZIEL -
12th - FIST OF RAZIEL - DIVINE JUSTICE
13th - FIST OF RAZIEL -
14th - FIST OF RAZIEL -
15th - FIST OF RAZIEL - DIVINE SHIELD
16th - FIST OF RAZIEL -
17th - PALADIN -
18th - PALADIN - ?????????
19th - PALADIN -
20th - PALADIN -


Would I take the Mystc Fire Knight substitution levels or the Divine Spirit? Or Drakkensteed Mount maybe...

There are some cool spells to use with Battle Blessing [I think, not sure] like:

Lv1:
protect from evil [early levels]
divine sacrifice
Rhino Rush
Endure elements
bless

LV2:
shield another
angelskin
knights move
strenght stone
Zeal

LV3:
dispel magic
blessing of bahamut
holy storm
righteous fury

LV4:
dispel evil
restoration
draconig might
righteous aura
revenance


But, if i'm wrong and using this spells are not worthy, take Holy Warrior ACF would be an viable option?

[AnimeTheCat]

But, if i'm wrong and using this spells are not worthy, take Holy Warrior ACF would be an viable option?

Spells, regardless of how many other spellcasters there are, are worth it. So what if you can sling spells? You can also hit real hard. If you were to get rid of your spellcasting you won't meet the prerequisites to get in to Fist of Raziel. Also, I did a little dig and unfortunately you can't continue Paladin after FoR because of the silly multiclassing rule for Paladin. You could ask the DM to waive it, but there's also a chance you may never see levels 17-20 so you may not even need to worry about that. Otherwise your options are kind of limited to whatever class fits your fancy. I'm guessing something to improve spell casting with Full BAB would be best, even if you miss level 1 from casting. I would personally avoid the 1/2 and 3/4 spell progression classes, but that's just my opinion.

Edit:
It looks like you have possibly picked spells known (Maybe)? Paladins work like Clerics though, they have full access to their spell list whenever they gain access to that level of spells. Unlike Clerics, they don't get domains. My recommendation would be to get a wand of Cure Light Wounds or the like at 4th level so that you can serve as a backup healer, heal the broken poor, heal the child that is sad and crying and injured, etc. After that, prepare spells that either improve your combat effectiveness, take the heat off the rest of the party, or bolsters the rest of the party if you can't hold back the tides of darkness. I would venture to say that your spells are probably one of the more crucial parts of your build since they're what bring on your versatility. Otherwise all you can do is stand there, look pretty in your shiney armor, and hit things. Your spells will be a nice change of pace. Just remember that you can cast ANY spell from the paladin spell list from a wand (if you meet the other prerequisites to activate the spell) without making use magic device checks. So you could have a lot of wands of the spells you cast most and further improve your ability to assist the party.

On a secondary note, I would recommend changing your stats to this:
Str - 13
Dex - 11
Con - 15
Int - 10
Wis - 12+2(Racial)
Cha - 14+2(Racial)

My reasoning is that you are a full BAB progression class so hitting things should be a little easier and since your focus is more defensive you can take a small step down in strength. Also, it's only one point away from what it used to be. Dex 11 because you will want that 1 extra point for your initiative and AC. Full plate allows Max Dex to be a +1 so why not take it if you can get it ya know? Wisdom 12 with the +2 racial so that you can cast any paladin spell. No need to raise it any further. Paladins don't really have (to my knowledge) any really potent save or dead/suck spells so DCs aren't really your focus here. Charisma 14+2 racial because its a bonus on attacks, its a bonus on lay on hands, its a bonus on saves, AND its a bonus on Turning Checks. Plus, if you end up being the face of the party (through the diplomacy skill) you'll want a pretty good charisma.

[Troacctid]

The elite array is pretty harsh. I would actually recommend taking a template to improve your stats. (Paladin levels aren't so amazing that you can't give up one or two if the bonuses are juicy enough.) Mulhorandi Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) or Half-Fey (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), maybe. Saint would be good if you can swing the Exalted feats.

[Rebel7284]

Ruby Knight Vindicator is pretty much the best class for tanking in my opinion. A low casting build looks like Paladin 4/Crusader 1/RKV 7/Whatever rest.

Taking Cleric instead of Paladin would make your character better, of course, but the build is solid either way.

Also, if LA is acceptable, consider the Mineral Warrior template. Difficult to overcome DR8 is completely ridiculous at early levels and stays relevant for a while. Combine with one of the 0LA Aasimar variants for a way better race than a stock Aasimar for the same LA.

Some other nice things to consider:
- Divine Crusader: if you want to focus on combat early and still get spells late game when you really really need them for the game to work.
- Ordained Champion: On a cleric base, this gives you Channel Spell, smiting, and quickening of war domain spells with the possibility of getting a bunch of free feats too. Pretty great class of smashing faces. :)

[Masamourne]

Spells, regardless of how many other spellcasters there are, are worth it. So what if you can sling spells? You can also hit real hard. If you were to get rid of your spellcasting you won't meet the prerequisites to get in to Fist of Raziel. Also, I did a little dig and unfortunately you can't continue Paladin after FoR because of the silly multiclassing rule for Paladin. You could ask the DM to waive it, but there's also a chance you may never see levels 17-20 so you may not even need to worry about that. Otherwise your options are kind of limited to whatever class fits your fancy. I'm guessing something to improve spell casting with Full BAB would be best, even if you miss level 1 from casting. I would personally avoid the 1/2 and 3/4 spell progression classes, but that's just my opinion.

Edit:
It looks like you have possibly picked spells known (Maybe)? Paladins work like Clerics though, they have full access to their spell list whenever they gain access to that level of spells. Unlike Clerics, they don't get domains. My recommendation would be to get a wand of Cure Light Wounds or the like at 4th level so that you can serve as a backup healer, heal the broken poor, heal the child that is sad and crying and injured, etc. After that, prepare spells that either improve your combat effectiveness, take the heat off the rest of the party, or bolsters the rest of the party if you can't hold back the tides of darkness. I would venture to say that your spells are probably one of the more crucial parts of your build since they're what bring on your versatility. Otherwise all you can do is stand there, look pretty in your shiney armor, and hit things. Your spells will be a nice change of pace. Just remember that you can cast ANY spell from the paladin spell list from a wand (if you meet the other prerequisites to activate the spell) without making use magic device checks. So you could have a lot of wands of the spells you cast most and further improve your ability to assist the party.

On a secondary note, I would recommend changing your stats to this:
Str - 13
Dex - 11
Con - 15
Int - 10
Wis - 12+2(Racial)
Cha - 14+2(Racial)

My reasoning is that you are a full BAB progression class so hitting things should be a little easier and since your focus is more defensive you can take a small step down in strength. Also, it's only one point away from what it used to be. Dex 11 because you will want that 1 extra point for your initiative and AC. Full plate allows Max Dex to be a +1 so why not take it if you can get it ya know? Wisdom 12 with the +2 racial so that you can cast any paladin spell. No need to raise it any further. Paladins don't really have (to my knowledge) any really potent save or dead/suck spells so DCs aren't really your focus here. Charisma 14+2 racial because its a bonus on attacks, its a bonus on lay on hands, its a bonus on saves, AND its a bonus on Turning Checks. Plus, if you end up being the face of the party (through the diplomacy skill) you'll want a pretty good charisma.


Aaaah, about The spells i know haha, I only showed the spells I'll probably use the most with battle blessing. Your stats seems better really, I'll use this certainly. Take more levels of paladin could be possible to fulfill the hole to de FoR?

PS: thanks for the advice, no more holy warrior



The elite array is pretty harsh. I would actually recommend taking a template to improve your stats. (Paladin levels aren't so amazing that you can't give up one or two if the bonuses are juicy enough.) Mulhorandi Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) or Half-Fey (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a), maybe. Saint would be good if you can swing the Exalted feats.

I don't think templates will be permitted by the DM , but I'll see. Can you explain me more about the saints and the exalted feats?

[Troacctid]

I don't think templates will be permitted by the DM , but I'll see. Can you explain me more about the saints and the exalted feats?
The Saint template can only be applied to a creature with three or more exalted feats. See Sainthood, in Book of Exalted Deeds.

[Gildedragon]

If you do go with the exalted feats:
Nymph's Kiss at 1
Ranged Smite Evil OR servant of the heavens
Touch of Golden Ice? Sacred Vow? (Not poverty, never poverty)

[Masamourne]

Wow wow wow, things are getting cool here!

So basically, let me see the new feats table:

1st - POWER ATTACK------------------------------------>Nymph's Kiss
3rd - SHIELD ESPECIALIZATION (HEAVY)-------------->????????????
6th - SERVANT OF THE HEAVENS----------------------->Servant of the Heavens
9th - BATTLE BLESSING--------------------------------->Battle Blessing
12th - DIVINE JUSTICE---------------------------------->Divine Justice
15th - DIVINE SHIELD-----------------------------------> Divine Shield
18th - ?????????????------------------------------------->??????????? yet (really don't know what to put here)

Seeing the possibilities in the book, i found:
- Intuitive Attack (don't know if this could be useful in the 3rd or even in the build)
- Sacred Relic (same as above)
- Exalted Smite OR Exalted Turning (???)

If I take "Servant of the Heavens" at 3rd, taking "Knight of Red Falcon (Champions of Valor)" at 6th count to Saint Template? Its exalted too i think.


Paladin6/Saint2/FoR10... only 2 more levels and its done! \o/

[LibraryOgre]

Any more news on this?

[Masamourne]

EDIT: I think Knight of the chalice can fill the hole or not?

I've talked with the DM yesterday. He said that we will use mounts so much, as he said: "Like cars in Mad Max: Fury Road"


A new player joined the group, and the other [with no character yet] left due the family and Nurse job. The new player will be a half-giant warrior [or psychic warrior, hes choosing and give 0 bucks for optimizing, 100% roleplay].

I think now I have a "muscle" partner in front line haha

[AnimeTheCat]

So, if you're wanting to play a Saint, my biggest recommendation is to just be a human at that point. It grants you an extra feat at CC, however keeping in the Aasimar build, you need Power Attack for Fist of Raziel and you need Servant of the Heavens as well.

Feats:
1st - Power Attack
3rd - Servant of the Heavens (1 Exalted)
6th - Nymph's Kiss or Touch of Golden Ice (if you'll be facing lots of evil) (2 Exalted)
9th - Gift of Grace or Hands of a Healer (3 Exalted)

Then there are more great gems for feats like extra smiting, but they aren't necessary immediately. Honestly, Paladin 6/Fist of Raziel 10/Paladin 4 will do everything you want to do. Don't take and ACFs just do it all Vanilla. You get mounts, you get smites, you get spells, you get it all. Just don't compare it to a Cleric because it will fall short simply due to how much support clerics have and just how GOOD spellcasting is.

[Troacctid]

Knight of the Chalice is not worth taking. Better prestige classes would be Knight of the Weave, Divine Crusader, or Beloved of Valarian.


So, if you're wanting to play a Saint, my biggest recommendation is to just be a human at that point. It grants you an extra feat at CC, however keeping in the Aasimar build, you need Power Attack for Fist of Raziel and you need Servant of the Heavens as well.

Feats:
1st - Power Attack
3rd - Servant of the Heavens (1 Exalted)
6th - Nymph's Kiss or Touch of Golden Ice (if you'll be facing lots of evil) (2 Exalted)
9th - Gift of Grace or Hands of a Healer (3 Exalted)

Then there are more great gems for feats like extra smiting, but they aren't necessary immediately. Honestly, Paladin 6/Fist of Raziel 10/Paladin 4 will do everything you want to do. Don't take and ACFs just do it all Vanilla. You get mounts, you get smites, you get spells, you get it all. Just don't compare it to a Cleric because it will fall short simply due to how much support clerics have and just how GOOD spellcasting is.

If you are taking Nymph's Kiss, you're taking it at 1st level. Also, Awesome Smite is pretty much required for a Fist of Raziel.

However, I think Fist of Raziel is actually pretty underwhelming on a paladin, as it gives up advancement of your best ability (special mount) in order to improve one of your worst abilities (smite evil). I would only take it on a cleric or favored soul base—or, if I did take it as a paladin, I would only do it on a dedicated charger build with the charging smite ACF, not on a build that actually plans to use a mount. I don't think charger builds are much fun, though—they tend to be one-trick ponies. (As opposed to mounted paladins, who have one pony trick.)

[AnimeTheCat]

Knight of the Chalice is not worth taking. Better prestige classes would be Knight of the Weave, Divine Crusader, or Beloved of Valarian.



If you are taking Nymph's Kiss, you're taking it at 1st level. Also, Awesome Smite is pretty much required for a Fist of Raziel.

However, I think Fist of Raziel is actually pretty underwhelming on a paladin, as it gives up advancement of your best ability (special mount) in order to improve one of your worst abilities (smite evil). I would only take it on a cleric or favored soul base—or, if I did take it as a paladin, I would only do it on a dedicated charger build with the charging smite ACF, not on a build that actually plans to use a mount. I don't think charger builds are much fun, though—they tend to be one-trick ponies. (As opposed to mounted paladins, who have one pony trick.)

I love smite evil personally. I know that doesn't make it good, but the campaigns I get to play in so rarely use mounts that it's never worth it for me. If I may though, I think that the celestial mount exalted feat would fit beautifully.

[Masamourne]

oh gawd pony trick ahahahah

touch of golden ice works only with unnarmed attacks or apply when they hit me?

I'm giving up to ACFs, only the Planar Paladin 6th level subtitution seems good i think. I need to take the 4th substitution too or not?
One of these PrCs get my attention: Divine Crusader. The resistances sum with the Aasimar resistances?

Fist of Raziel magic circle will be crucial later in the campaign IMO.


and for feats, what if i do this?

1st - Nymph's Kiss
3rd - Intuitive Attack / Servant of Heavens / Touch of Golden Ice
6th - Servant of the Heavens / Celestial Mount [if can't use palanar paladin]
9th - Power Attack
12th - Awesome Smite
15th - Battle Blessing
18th - Divine Justice

[Troacctid]

touch of golden ice works only with unnarmed attacks or apply when they hit me?
Only when you touch them with a bare hand, fist, or natural weapon.


I'm giving up to ACFs, only the Planar Paladin 6th level subtitution seems good i think. I need to take the 4th substitution too or not?
You don't have to take the 4th level sub to take the 6th level one. And yes, the 6th level one is quite nice.


One of these PrCs get my attention: Divine Crusader. The resistances sum with the Aasimar resistances?
No, you take whichever is higher. The real draw is the spellcasting, which is quite strong even though you only get one domain. There are some nice things you can do with it. I mean, obviously you can just cast the spells, but you can also power reserve feats and stuff.


Fist of Raziel magic circle will be crucial later in the campaign IMO.
It is useless if you are a Saint as it does not stack with the innate magic circle granted by the template.

[Masamourne]

Hnmm, i'll not use touch of golden ice then...

But... wait! Without Fist of Raziel and with the Saint Template, i don't need the exalted feats anymore, right?
With this i can change the feats to be more reliable.


What domain will be good to the divine crusader? And i don't understand this "power reserve feats"... #DumbModeON

[Nando]

Hnmm, i'll not use touch of golden ice then...

But... wait! Without Fist of Raziel and with the Saint Template, i don't need the exalted feats anymore, right?
With this i can change the feats to be more reliable.


What domain will be good to the divine crusader? And i don't understand this "power reserve feats"... #DumbModeON

No, you need the exalted feats for Saint, not for FoR:

"In order to qualify for sainthood, a character must meet the
following qualifications, as well as any additional requirements
set by the DM:
• Must be of good alignment
• Must have at least three exalted feats
• Must never have lost the benefit of exalted feats or class abilities
because of committing an evil act, even if the character
properly atoned
• Must at all times behave in a way the DM considers to be
exemplary of the exalted path described in this book
• Must be at least 6th level
• Must make an extraordinary sacrifice (not necessarily his or
her life) for the good of another"

(BoED p.29)

[Masamourne]

By the old And new gods! Thanks nando hahaha
so much time without sleep are not good to health kids u.u

Hnmm, paladin doesn't have much PrCs I think that go well with my saint aasimar. And if I go with the Divine Crusader I don't know a good domain and stuff.

For sure I will take paladin until 6th, taking planar paladin substitution and entering in the pursue of saint template . After taking the template, not sure if take more levels in paladin or go with divine Crusader/other PrC

[Nando]

You should check in with your DM, if you're planing to take on Sainthood, so that they can consider, what that means in theire game and what you need to do, to be allowed to take the template.

I'll leave the advices concerning PrCs in the hand of better suited ppl ;)

[Masamourne]

I've already talked with the DM, Nando.

All the feats/skills/classes/etc in the books, except homebrew, are allowed if those rules are accessible [thanks internet and your PDFs!!!]

All that remains is to decide the remaining feats and PrC[s]

EDIT: Divine Might seems sooooo OP

Thanks for the help o/

[AnimeTheCat]

While it is true that your class feature Magic Circle doesn't stack with your Saint Template one, You get the better of the two. And unless you're STARTING as a Saint, that probably won't come online till a fair bit later. Its a powerful template and should not be used by the faint of heart. I still advocate for Fist of Raziel because of its 9/10 spellcasting Progression, its smite progression, and all of its class abilities. Nothing wrong with Divine Crusader, I just like FoR more. The best way to get in to the class as early as possible, AND get Nymph's Kiss, is 3rd and 6th levels be Power Attack and Knight of the Heavens. IF you're allowed to take flaws (from Unearthed Arcana) Take two and get your power attack, knight of the heavens, and nymph's kiss at character creation. then use your 3rd and 6th level feats for two more exalted feats and you can feasibly become a saint at level 6. I, again, don't recommend this seeing as how the rest of the party isn't particularly optimized. You'll seem way more powerful than them. Unless the DM is going to equally compensate them to keep the on par with your saint, its not going to be pretty.

[Troacctid]

And if I go with the Divine Crusader I don't know a good domain and stuff.

Some good ones off the top of my head might be War (good spells, solid granted ability, very good with Ordained Champion, enables Holy Warrior reserve feat) or Spell (because Anyspell is gas).

[Eisfalken]

Sorry if some of these were already said elsewhere, just throwing my two coppers in there...



1 Elf Psychic Rogue [who have more "psychic" than "rogue"]

Go find The Mind's Eye articles on the D&D 3.5 archive site, there should definitely be a Psychic Rogue class there that does exactly as stated. Psionic progression isn't stupendous, but the abilities you get are definitely good tricks to have as a rogue. But here's the thing: you can also Use Psionic Device, which means you get access to some very, very, very tasty things in the game. The way to chose which powers to know personally and which to access in an item is based a lot on utility: which powers you would need to have at any waking moment, versus which ones you only need once in a while for a specific situation or something.

Otherwise, it's basically a rogue build. Your sneak attack damage gets a bit gimped in exchange for those powers. But the coolest thing you get is the special ability mind cripple... which lets you damage Intelligence with every hit. I'll let you mull that one around for a bit to realize how awful that would be to certain bad guys.

Most feats should be for a stealth build. Darkhidden and Staggering Strike are great. If you get access to 3rd-level powers, think about getting psionic lion's charge which lets you basically full attack after a charge. Combined with mind strike, that should be a pretty sure-fire way to lay out enemies pretty fast.

You don't have to prestige. Like... at all. You can pretty much go straight to 20 and you get something worth taking just about every level. If you have good stats, Dex and Int are primary there (yes, along with Con, but we all already know everyone needs Con all the time forever now...). Since you don't have quite as many skills as a pure rogue, my recommendation is not to worry at all about too many Cha-based skills; psychic rogues aren't exactly the best party face, unless they have stupendous stats allowing more skill points and/or to not have penalties to Cha skills. Str and Wis are dump stats, but I would put Wis higher than Str if possible, so your Listen and Spot skills won't suffer (and therefor you don't get caught by surprise).


1 Drow dread necromancer [ new guy in the group, new at 3.5]

New won't matter. Dread necro is actually a pretty simplistic class. Set list of spells, specific abilities, nothing terribly complex to learn.

The most complex thing actually is animating undead. You have to keep up with the stats of the things you make, how many HD you are controlling, etc. It's still not actually "complex", just a slight bit of paperwork. Tell the player to work carefully with the DM on this part of it.

Other than that? Just look for new and interesting undead to make. Tell him to be experimental. Some creatures make great undead; others less-so. Oh, and he doesn't have to create undead himself to get them. See... he's got rebuke/command undead ability. That means he can STEAL undead from bad guys. Not saying he can't be sly and throw a few spells when the paladin isn't looking, but it might impress the paladin's sense of morality to see you command the undead to destroy their own bad-guy makers instead of attacking the party.


1 Elf Druid [He can't CoDzilla yet, it's new at 3.5]

Oh, ho, ho, ho. All he needs is Natural Spell to become a giant animal casting spells. Don't get me wrong, Complete Divine helps that transition into unstoppable force of nature, but... you actually don't even really need it. Core druids alone are still ridiculous.


I want to build some Almighty Paladin, shiny armor and tanking all the **** around.

Sadly, if your DM allowed more books into the mix, I could actually make you a Thor-like character. As in your hammer could hit as if it were giant-sized without you getting bigger, you can fly under your own power, and you don't need to screw with mounts or familiars or any of that jazz. You can even take a hard hit and deal one out.

If you WERE to talk your DM into being open-minded here, here's how you do all that:
1. Paladin 2 / sorcerer 4 / spellsword 1 (Complete Warrior) / abjurant champion 5 (Complete Mage) / eldritch knight 8 (DMG); stack up Cha high as you can.
2. Dump familiar for spell shield ability (Dungeonscape)
3. Get greater mighty wallop spell from Races of the Dragon book. Basically, every 4 CLs you get +1 size to your weapon damage without actually making it bigger or anything. (You know, so your hammer actually hits as hard as Thor's does.) Oh, and it lasts hours/level, so only will need to cast it once in a while.
4. Get luminous armor and/or greater luminous armor from Book of Exalted Deeds. Basically, these spells give you blazing armor made of light with good AC and they slightly blind enemies trying to hit you (penalty in melee). Best part? Both of these spells get a benefit from the abjurant champion prestige class to give you even more armor. Slight drawback here, though: you take some Strength damage to use these spells, so you need to have something to cure that (or you just need enough Str that it doesn't hurt you that much).
5. Get a rod of bodily restoration (Magic Item Compendium) which can cure some physical stat damage per day; this allows you to use the above armor spells without worrying about having less Str.
6. Get the feat Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior), letting you burn spells for more attack and damage bonus.
7. ???
8. Profit.

All the above doesn't require you to "use" much of any book other than the Magic Item Compendium. The spells I listed are fairly self-contained; they don't use any material from the rest of the books (well, the BoED stuff has a "sacrifice" cost to the spell that needs a brief few seconds to understand, but yeah, easy). And the spells basically have really straightforward rules. One just increases effective weapon size for damage; you don't get any other bonus. The other spells give you bonus AC that overlaps your armor (does stack), and gives a penalty to melee attackers, at the cost of some of your Strength.

And since you are a sorcerer, you can pick up all kinds of arcane spells useful for melee combat. Resist energy, protection from energy, greater magic weapon, enlarge person (because there are actual benefits to being bigger other than just weapon damage), fly (and overland flight), plane shift (now you can summon the Bifrost Bridge and travel to other planes), and the list kind of just keeps going on.

Well... I mean, if you could talk the DM into a little more leeway.


Books Allowed by our DM:

Talk them into allowing Magic Item Compendium once you guys have played enough to get to 10th level or so. Mostly just so you can fish for better items than +1 longswords and such.

[GreyBlack]

Knight is T5, Paladin is T4.

With proper optimization, Paladin bounces up to T3.

As such, I recommend playing a Bardadin. Paladin 2/Bard X is always fun, and provides you with that fluff of "inspiring your allies to greatness and letting your faith be their bulwark" stuff.

[Troacctid]

With proper optimization, Paladin bounces up to T3.
Not if you're single-classed.

[Masamourne]

WTF, so many posts ;3

As Jack said, let's go by parts:

EisFalken:
1) Exactly this! The "more psy than rogue" is because she will focus more on the psychic side of the class only while she is the skillmonkey in group;
2) Not much to say, he's new and will go by "corpsecrafting" way.
3) He know this, but he chose to do an "roleplay" 100% instead of a full optimization CoDzilla raaaawr
4) The only problem with my DM is the big multiclassing builds, all books are allowed (except homebrews) but he don't like more than something like this: CLASS 1 / CLASS 2 / CLASS 3 (maybe /CLASS 4)

GreyBlack: IF there's no waw (And the DM go crazy using nerf hammer in my ideas) Bardadin have a special place in our hearts s2
OBS: I'm part of the 22% too o/


AnimeThecat and Troacctid:
So many true words haha
What AnimeTheCat said about Saints it's true, jackpot! And flaws will not pass, i've tried ahahaha

Let's go in nerd safe mode then:

If Saints are OK, let's go with this:

Str - 13
Dex - 11
Con - 15
Int - 10
Wis - 12+2(Racial)
Cha - 14+2(Racial)

LEVEL - CLASSES - FEATS
1st - PALADIN - NYMPH'S KISS
2nd - PALADIN -
3rd - PALADIN - SERVANT OF THE HEAVENS
4th - PALADIN -
5th - PALADIN -
6th - PLANAR PALADIN SUBSTITUTION - SACRED VOW (?)
7th - SAINT -
8th - SAINT -
9th - PALADIN -
10th - PALADIN - WEAPON FOCUS
11th - DIVINE CRUSADER - WAR DOMAIN
12th - DIVINE CRUSADER - HOLY WARRIOR RESERVE FEAT
13th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
14th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
15th - DIVINE CRUSADER - BATTLE BLESSING
16th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
17th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
18th - DIVINE CRUSADER - DIVINE MIGHT
19th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
20th - DIVINE CRUSADER -


If Saint got overpowered and banned, let's go with this:

Str - 13
Dex - 11
Con - 15
Int - 10
Wis - 12+2(Racial)
Cha - 14+2(Racial)

LEVEL - CLASSES - FEATS
1st - PALADIN - POWER ATTACK
2nd - PALADIN -
3rd - PALADIN - SERVANT OF THE HEAVENS
4th - PALADIN -
5th - PALADIN -
6th - PLANAR PALADIN SUBSTITUTION - AWESOME SMITE
7th - FIST OF RAZIEL -
8th - FIST OF RAZIEL -
9th - FIST OF RAZIEL - DIVINE MIGHT
10th - FIST OF RAZIEL -
11th - FIST OF RAZIEL -
12th - FIST OF RAZIEL - BATTLE BLESSING
13th - FIST OF RAZIEL -
14th - FIST OF RAZIEL -
15th - FIST OF RAZIEL - DIVINE JUSTICE
16th - FIST OF RAZIEL -
17th - PALADIN -
18th - PALADIN - PROTECTION/TRAVEL DOMAIN (?)
19th - PALADIN -
20th - PALADIN -

[AnimeTheCat]

To your Alpha and Omega build, I would recommend Celestial Mount instead of Sacred Vow. Sacred Vow is typically used when trying to get other vows (like Vow of Poverty, Vow of Non-Violence, Vow of Peace, etc.) and as such, it's bonus is not particularly worth it as a stand alone feat. Celestial Mount gives whatever Paladin Special Mount you pick the Celestial Template netting you, among other things, smite from your mount, Damage Reduction, and energy resistances. Its a feat that will help quite a bit I would imagine if your DM is going to include lots of mounted combat. That being said, I would almost say that some of the later feats you take might want to be more mounted-centric. As it is now, you're not getting any real bonus to being on your mount. Mounted Combat is the opener for a wide array of mounted feats and might be important.

EDIT:

As such, I recommend playing a Bardadin. Paladin 2/Bard X is always fun, and provides you with that fluff of "inspiring your allies to greatness and letting your faith be their bulwark" stuff.

My hero :smalltongue: I've been trying to get someone to try the build for awhile.

[Florian]

Check if you can use the Pathfinder version of the Paladin. That is way more enjoyable then the very lackluster 3.5 version.

[Masamourne]

AnimeTheCat:

I don't want to take mount feats because of:
1- ) The planar paladin give me celestial mount already;
2- ) Using other mount feats will make me more dependant of the animal, personally I don't like it (as you too i think haha)

OBS: My Fred Mercury Paladin are safe here, waiting for the right momment.


Florian:
Thanks for the tips, the DM don't like so much mix pathfinder with 3.5. If he nerf shot the Fist of Raziel, Divine Crusader and the Bardadin (don't know why) next week, my last last LAST try will be the PF paladin

[Florian]

Florian:
Thanks for the tips, the DM don't like so much mix pathfinder with 3.5. If he nerf shot the Fist of Raziel, Divine Crusader and the Bardadin (don't know why) next week, my last last LAST try will be the PF paladin

Try it. At its´ core is only a very small fix: Smite Evil lasts until the designated target is dead. Compared to the PrC you mentioned, it´s a small thing, but one that you´ll take notice of in actual play.

[GreyBlack]

AnimeTheCat:

I don't want to take mount feats because of:
1- ) The planar paladin give me celestial mount already;
2- ) Using other mount feats will make me more dependant of the animal, personally I don't like it (as you too i think haha)

OBS: My Fred Mercury Paladin are safe here, waiting for the right momment.


Florian:
Thanks for the tips, the DM don't like so much mix pathfinder with 3.5. If he nerf shot the Fist of Raziel, Divine Crusader and the Bardadin (don't know why) next week, my last last LAST try will be the PF paladin

While note _necessary_, the PF Paladin is a significant upgrade from the 3.5. Failing that, however, taking Devoted Performer will allow you to go Bardadin with ease, as it eliminates the alignment requirement for Bard (It's from the Complete series). However, I do have to ask.... _why_ would the Bardadin be nerfed yet the base Wizard not be?

[Troacctid]

Str - 13
Dex - 11
Con - 15
Int - 10
Wis - 12+2(Racial)
Cha - 14+2(Racial)

LEVEL - CLASSES - FEATS
1st - PALADIN - NYMPH'S KISS
2nd - PALADIN -
3rd - PALADIN - SERVANT OF THE HEAVENS
4th - PALADIN -
5th - PALADIN -
6th - PLANAR PALADIN SUBSTITUTION - SACRED VOW (?)
7th - SAINT -
8th - SAINT -
9th - PALADIN -
10th - PALADIN - WEAPON FOCUS
11th - DIVINE CRUSADER - WAR DOMAIN
12th - DIVINE CRUSADER - HOLY WARRIOR RESERVE FEAT
13th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
14th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
15th - DIVINE CRUSADER - BATTLE BLESSING
16th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
17th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
18th - DIVINE CRUSADER - DIVINE MIGHT
19th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
20th - DIVINE CRUSADER -


Note that Saint is a level adjustment, and does not actually represent two level-ups—it's more like phantom levels that count as levels when calculating XP, but not for anything else, like feats or skills or HP or whatnot. So your feats here are off.

Servant of the Heavens is pointless if you don't need it as a prerequisite. Gift of Discernment, Defender of the Homeland, Knight of the Red Falcon, and maybe Knight of Tyr's Merciful Sword would all be better. You could also take Sacred Vow as a bad Skill Focus (Diplomacy), although you wouldn't be very happy about it.

Strength should be your 15. It is your primary stat, and the one that you don't get any racial bonuses to.

[Masamourne]

While note _necessary_, the PF Paladin is a significant upgrade from the 3.5. Failing that, however, taking Devoted Performer will allow you to go Bardadin with ease, as it eliminates the alignment requirement for Bard (It's from the Complete series). However, I do have to ask.... _why_ would the Bardadin be nerfed yet the base Wizard not be?

Don't know exactly yet. It's more a "what if..." than "he certainly will block this idea dude! Do a fighter now!!!1!1!!"



Note that Saint is a level adjustment, and does not actually represent two level-ups—it's more like phantom levels that count as levels when calculating XP, but not for anything else, like feats or skills or HP or whatnot. So your feats here are off.

Servant of the Heavens is pointless if you don't need it as a prerequisite. Gift of Discernment, Defender of the Homeland, Knight of the Red Falcon, and maybe Knight of Tyr's Merciful Sword would all be better. You could also take Sacred Vow as a bad Skill Focus (Diplomacy), although you wouldn't be very happy about it.

Strength should be your 15. It is your primary stat, and the one that you don't get any racial bonuses to.

sooooooo, here we go again:

Str - 15
Dex - 11
Con - 13
Int - 10
Wis - 12+2(Racial)
Cha - 14+2(Racial)

LEVEL - CLASSES - FEATS
1st - PALADIN - NYMPH'S KISS
2nd - PALADIN -
3rd - PALADIN - [need help here LOL:] GIFT OF DISCERNMENT/EXALTED TURNING[?]/DEFENDER OF THE HOMELAND
4th - PALADIN -
5th - PALADIN -
6th - PLANAR PALADIN SUBSTITUTION - KNIGHT OF THE RED FALCON
6th++ - SAINT TEMPLATE
7th - PALADIN -
8th - PALADIN -
9th - PALADIN - WEAPON FOCUS
10th - DIVINE CRUSADER - WAR DOMAIN
11th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
12th - DIVINE CRUSADER - HOLY WARRIOR RESERVE FEAT
13th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
14th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
15th - DIVINE CRUSADER - BATTLE BLESSING
16th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
17th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
18th - DIVINE CRUSADER - DIVINE MIGHT
19th - DIVINE CRUSADER -
20th - DIVINE CRUSADER -


Question: Taking Nimbus of Light [3rd] and Holy Radiance [6th] are good too?