Pact Roleplaying Game - Feedback Wanted

[GameOfChampions]

So for those of you who don't know Pact is a online web serial by Wildbow based around an original universe involving occult magics and ancient practices and creatures. The same guy also wrote Worm which spawned a successful role playing game called Weaverdice. After playing Weaverdice for a while I felt the bug to play a similar thing based on Pact.

So I got onto the old Googledocs and started typing. I have, tried to at least, create a role playing game that works in the Pact-verse, it would be largely free form and open to interpretation but this would address character creation and how conflict would work as well as the magic system and the like. I'm still working on a few aspects of the game but I thought I would ask for some thoughts on the system while I'm still doing some edits and stuff.

Here is the link to Devils and Dice: A Pact Roleplaying Game (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dumFYtlsSGlHckLBBLkH-Ut91kiW1_s6l1B7NsdhX-M/edit).

[GameOfChampions]

Any feedback at all would help. Do the rules make sense? Are they too rigid? Are they too fluid? Does the idea of having a set way to fight/use magic make sense? Continuing that line of thought does the idea of having a way of doing magic/combat but leaving it bare bones to let the players choose how to roleplay what's happening work? Did I limit the Big Three enough so players don't use them to break the game or limit them to much with the rules and conditions to get them?

Anything helps people.

[JeenLeen]

For character creation, it took me a couple reads to realize the 2d4 roll is to determine which two charts you roll for and that the two d4s are independent of each other, i.e., you don't add the results together.
Perhaps also number the charts 1-4, to more clearly correlate to the dice results.
Also, if you roll the same result twice, do you then roll on the same chart twice? If yes, what happens if you get the same result? For example, what is someone rolls '1' on both d4s, then '1' on both d8s?

I also recommend a sentence stating that, by DM option, you can just choose two results, but a sentence to discourage it since it's against the flavor of the setting or something like that and to discourage powergaming. I can see these results being strongly tied into a character's backstory, so rolling for them feels too akin to rolling for stats in old D&D. If I want to play <whatever>, I want to have a certain background Karma/Connections/etc.

P.S. Could you post a link to Weaverdice, if it's available online?

[GameOfChampions]

First thanks for posting and some feedback. :smallsmile:

Ya those are both good ideas and I will definitely add them. Numbering the charts makes sense and I can see how some players would want to be able to pick their choices if DM OK's it for flavor reasons. As for the same result thing it had totally slipped my mind if I'm being honest :smalleek: Thinking about it I think the player will be allowed to re-roll or keep it at their choice.

Also sure. Here is the most recent edition of Weaver Dice (https://img.fireden.net/tg/image/1446/92/1446929951560.pdf) I believe, though I could have missed one and if so my bad. Also here is a homebrew (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OgHauqLD7LZqOZYworruBoL4h7wDNgRCmzAJWOdSumY/edit) thing that I find really useful for creating capes with the rolls if you need to populate a city or just are making them for fun, I find the rolls help give me a framework to work around.

[JeenLeen]

I started reading Pact and can now give some more feedback.

With combat: it sounds like it boils down to each combatant chooses secretly to spend x power. Whoever spends the most wins, but winning by a large margin can have negative consequences.

Is that accurate?
If yes, the fluff for it makes sense and matches Pact pretty well, I think. I would go into how rounds of combat work. For example, can/should there be an initial round where the two combatants can feel each other out? I can see one practitioner planning to fail in a short-term duel and starting out bold, only to hold back in the rest so their opponent expends unneeded power and is altered in some way that could hurt long-term.

Details to add: I was thinking of how to make a Pact game my gaming group would like, and I think the two things that need rules are how to gain and spend Power and how Karma works.

For power, I recommend harder rules (and/or more examples) on how power is gained, invested, etc. For example, you could have a standard person noted with no tools, then after they gain a weak power source (like June?), then them making their 3 major tools (demense, familiar, implement), and lastly an example after that and some other minor workings. Show how power could be invested so it is not available and other details.

For karma, I can see some sort of passive penalty or something the DM can invoke at a given time to reflect the backlash of lying or breaking a promise. (Also, probably recommend DMs warn the player if they are about to forswear an oath or blatantly lie, to make sure players don't screw over their PC by a mistake or forgotten detail.) At the least, having bad luck vs. good luck and an initial reaction from Others could be it.
It probably doesn't fit the system well, but I could see borrowing something from oWoD Mage's Paradox system. Just backlashes are a ton more subtle almost all the time, and having 'paradox' gives you bad luck.

Also, unless I missed it, an... whatever glamour is under should be added to the types of magic.

[GameOfChampions]

I started reading Pact and can now give some more feedback.

With combat: it sounds like it boils down to each combatant chooses secretly to spend x power. Whoever spends the most wins, but winning by a large margin can have negative consequences.

Is that accurate?
If yes, the fluff for it makes sense and matches Pact pretty well, I think. I would go into how rounds of combat work. For example, can/should there be an initial round where the two combatants can feel each other out? I can see one practitioner planning to fail in a short-term duel and starting out bold, only to hold back in the rest so their opponent expends unneeded power and is altered in some way that could hurt long-term.


Well that's the gist of it really, the power spending is a little more complicated though what with the possibilities of having Items/trinkets granting either more power or abilities/spells that can grant bonuses in other ways as a few of the spells specify. This would grant some more complexity on top of the system and, I think at least, be in keeping with the magic theme from Pact.



Details to add: I was thinking of how to make a Pact game my gaming group would like, and I think the two things that need rules are how to gain and spend Power and how Karma works.

For power, I recommend harder rules (and/or more examples) on how power is gained, invested, etc. For example, you could have a standard person noted with no tools, then after they gain a weak power source (like June?), then them making their 3 major tools (demense, familiar, implement), and lastly an example after that and some other minor workings. Show how power could be invested so it is not available and other details.

OK I can see how the power explanations can be confusing, I'll add a more descriptive example paragraph outlining the rules more clearly but I think the rules are pretty good. I can't be to descriptive because items will most likely change practitioner to practitioner and so there are the general rules to follow but nothing too in depth.



For karma, I can see some sort of passive penalty or something the DM can invoke at a given time to reflect the backlash of lying or breaking a promise. (Also, probably recommend DMs warn the player if they are about to forswear an oath or blatantly lie, to make sure players don't screw over their PC by a mistake or forgotten detail.) At the least, having bad luck vs. good luck and an initial reaction from Others could be it.

I will admit I was somewhat stumped on how to deal with Karma. The tables were OK for character creation but don't really work as well I think for actual gameplay and problems. I like those ideas though. As far as the GM warning people though I would have hoped they just do that otherwise it's just mean. :smalltongue:


It probably doesn't fit the system well, but I could see borrowing something from oWoD Mage's Paradox system. Just backlashes are a ton more subtle almost all the time, and having 'paradox' gives you bad luck.

Honestly not sure what the oWoD Mage Paradox System is sooooo clarification???


Also, unless I missed it, an... whatever glamour is under should be added to the types of magic.

My bad must have missed it. There are so many. However most importantly thanks for all this feedack! I honestly thought this thread was dead.

[JeenLeen]

Re: Paradox (fluff simplified)

As mages do things that violate the natural order of the world (namely, casting obvious magic), the universe gets mad at them and they accumulate Paradox. Its usually related to what you do; for example, transformation magic might backlash as you turning into something weak or immobile, while mind magic might cause you to not think straight or to see illusions. Poetic justice ideas.

A low amount of Paradox (1-3) is like a bad headache, but can be ignored.
At 4-6, it's likely to backlash as a minor, temporary curse as the universe screws you for violating the rules. Maybe you are deaf for a week, or you can't speak English for a time. Or you just get some minor wounds that take time to heal.
At 5-10, it's bad. The damage you suffer might kill you, or you are severely handicapped (turn to glass for a week or two). Or you hallucinate and the hallucinations become real.
At 10+, you are likely to die if it manifests as damage; if some other form, you are really screwed.

In Mage, Paradox wears off when you don't use magic blatantly, but I don't see bad Karma wearing off on its own. Also, Paradox is too blatant.

I would recommend you gain Bad Karma like this:
(1-3 starting, based on bad family history, karmic debt, curses, etc.)

1 point gained by a minor lie (white lie, sarcasm), minor violations against 'laws' like hospitality (severe rudeness, stealing), killing someone who kinda-did-kinda-didn't deserve it. Also can be gained if putting off a promise unduly.
2 points gained by a blatant lie, major violations against 'laws' like hospitality (ex. kill a host), killing someone for no good reason
3 points gained by breaking a promise*
4 points gained by breaking an oath, in addition to being foresworn
varies: owing someone x or avoiding the cost of getting x: gain bad karma equal to x.

*assumes a promise and an oath are different things. I haven't read enough into Pact to know if it differentiates. If the same, maybe 3 is breaking one by accident or a minor violation. ("I was late when I promised I'd be on time for this date.")
You could probably put in there violating laws of the universe, if such exist and can be broken.

If you have bad karma, you are just generally unlucky. If you have a lot, you are very unlucky. Also, people get a bad vibe about you. Others/practitioners may or may not be conscious of why, but they know there's less at stake karmic-wise when opposing you.

Bad Karma does not wear off on its own, but it can be counteracted by Good Karma. You gain good karma by things like:

1 point: fulfilling a significant oath/promise, or making a life-binding/altering agreement
2 points: fulfilling a very significant oath/promise (or maintaining an ongoing oath for a significant number of years)
3 points: ...???
varies: doing something worth x for free (or as free as something can be BUT excluding working for good will/manipulation). Worth good karma equal to x.

Fitting the dark setting, it's harder to get good karma than bad karma. Maybe also you can get points for just not screwing up in a decade. Use up the good karma so you can kill a foe with trickery when needed.

I don't know enough about Pact (haven't read enough) to know if things like deceit, killing, etc. get bad karma, or if you can kill something bad and get good karma. For example, would a diabolist get bad karma by nature of what they work with, or could one get good karma by sealing away demons?

--
Also, I thought up some tentative rules for objects of power and demenses. I'll try to post it here tonight, either as a new post or an edit to this one. (The terminology is a little different, since I was writing it as a game based on Pact more than trying to imitate Pact as closely as possible, and I dislike the term 'implement' and cannot remember how to spell demense.)

I liked your idea of having so many 'power points' to use to make your main 3 tools, so I took that as a person having 5 points of power (like MP in a video game), and you gain a bigger power pool from external forces. Follows the idea of, when weak, make a weak implement, demenese, or familiar, and make a better one of the others once you are stronger.

EDIT: in the spoiler below is what I wrote up. It's a little jumbled, but I hope it might be helpful. I'm a bit tight on time or I'd clean it up more.

Terminology
Internal Power - your base 5 power
External Power - power from other sources
Quintessence - power in a physical form, often generated from founts

contagion: how you gain power impacts you in subtle ways. A necromancer will naturally get a touch of death. If you are low on personal power, it can impact you more severely. When your pesronal power is at 2 or lower, you run a risk of contagion whenever casting a spell. Contagion means that some supernatural aspect around you has gotten into you deeply. It is usually one of your foci. For example, a necromancer with bound ghosts might get paler, or might develop a hallow cough, or just look skeletal to others. A fire elementalist might get red hair, or a flaming glint to their eye, or literal eyes of fire. (Note that mundanes tend not to notice supernatural aspects per se, but it makes it hard to avoid that something is up and very hard to hide from supernaturals.) In a sense, you become less human and more Other.

Base 5 power. If low, you feel drained and tired and suffer penalties to physical actions (and magic?). Also, having less of your own strength opens you up to contagion.
at 0, -2 penalty, 50% contagion
at 1, -1 penatly, 20% contagion
at 2, no penalty, 10% contagion
Normally, you regenerate 1 Internal Power/day when resting. If you draw upon your blood, it takes an extra day before you regenerate your internal power pool. External power regenerates each day.

Focus - something that gives you an effective boost to your power pool. Takes at least twice the boost to create/seal. Foci, except for one's Implement, are almost always Tools or Seals as well.
Examples: one's Implement, an object with a sealed Other, a token from another with some of their pool sealed in it
Lesser (+1), Modest (+2), Greater (+3)

Implement - an object you have ritually bonded with. It is a reflection of you. As well as being a focus, it lets you cast spells at -1 power cost if they fit in the theme of your implement and you use it with the casting. Conversely, those opposed to it cost an additional 1 power to cast, and you can only cast such spells using External Power.
Tool - something that gives an extra magical ability.
Seal - something with an Other sealed inside it. You can free the Other to command it. Depending on how it was sealed, it may or may not be particularly friendly or obedient. Most who bind Others make them promise to obey whoever holds the seal.
A given object can be a tool and a seal, the Other granting a power as well as being summonable.

Example: you bind a ghost into an object. This object radiates with the ghost's energy, which you can use, making it a focus. The ghost died from frostbite, making it a tool to freeze your foes. It is also a seal, and you can free the ghost.

Fount - something that gains power over time, can be tapped from, and stores power. This power can be pulled into oneself to replenish one's power pool.
A fount can be dedicated to a particular use. This increases how often it generates power, but limits how broadly the power can be used, and the power is generated as solidified Quintessence instead of raw magical energy. Quintessence 'spoils'
Lesser - 1 power/fortnight or 1 Quintessence/day, stores 5
Modest - 1 power/week or 2 Quintessence/day, stores 10
Greater - 1 power/day or 3 Quintessence/day, stores 15
Example: you claim a faerie's hair as a reward and put it in a locket. This steals a portion of the fairy's power (diminishing its power pool by 2) and creating a lesser fount. If you simply draw upon it, it generates 1 power per fortnight that you can use. However, you mix the ground hair with ink to create paint used to create glamours. This repurposes it to glamours only. The hair grows of its own accord, generating enough to make one spells' worth of paint per day.

Domain - an area ritually claimed as your own. It acts as a Fount, and you can alter reality within it. A lesser fount is about the size of a room, a modest one about the size of a house, and a greater one about the size of a city block.

Link - a physical object made into a link to a Fount or one's Domain. Requires an investment of 1 internal power to create if linking to a domain, 2 otherwise (i.e., drops your power pool by that amount). It lets one, when using it, tap into a fount.
Example: a key that, when put into a lock, lets you open into the power of your Domain, your home