Build critique

[killianh]

Hello Playground. I threw this together for a gestalt campaign and I wanted to hear your thoughts on the build. Please note before critique that A) only one flaw was allowed and it had to be something that would actually effect the character (so I couldn't take a penalty to ranged attacks on an all melee guy) an B) we don't have LA buy off, but all LA goes to only one side of the build. Apologies in advance for any spelling errors/the format.

Human base Fighter 5/Weapon Master 7/Disciple of dispater 8//Half Orge/Half Minotaur/Primordial Giant/unseely fey/Feral/Mineral Warrior 3/
Overpowering attack monk 2/Clostered Cleric 1/Druidic Avenger swift hunter Druid 1/Feat Rogue 1/Warblade 1/Human Paragon 2/
Swordsage 1/Factotum 3/Feat rogue 1/warblade 2/swordsage 1/Binder 1

The idea at the end is to have a brute, but rounded off as a character. highlight is ending up with a 5-20 crit range with a 3d6 weapon that does x4 crits all day long, and occasionally x5.

LEVEL 1
Human Bonus feat: Mobility (+4 dodge AC against AoO), First level feat: Dodge (+1 dodge AC against 1 foe), Half Orge: +10 movement,
Large size (+8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, 10ft reach, +2 NA), +2 Nat Armour, 60ft darkvision. Half Minotaur: +2 NA, 1d8 gore attck, Scent, know north, +4 int check in mazes
Track bonus feat, +2 search, spot, and listen. Primordial GIant: Invisibility (CL=HD), +2 spellcraft and UMD, Spell likes at +1 CL. Unseely Fey: unusable batwings,
Winter Chill ((su) living non fey within 5' take moral penalty to saves = CHA mod no save), DR HD 1-3 None 4-7 5/iron 8-11 10/cold iron 12+ 15/cold iron, Iron vulnerability:
take 1 point of damage for touching iron, extra 1d6 when hit with it, DR applies at later levels, low light vision, +4 intimidate, bard skills as class skills.
Fighter Feat: Weapon Focus (minotaur great hammer) Flaw (-1 AC) Feat (EWP Minotaur great hammer)
Skills: (2+int)x4
LEVEL 2
Fighter Feat: Combat Reflexes. Feral: +10' movement, +6 NA or original (Same amount), 2 2d6 claw attacks, HD scaling abilities: 1-3: Imp Grab, fast heal 2, 4-7: pounce FH 3
8-11: Rake, Darkvision 90', FH 4, 12+: Rend, DV 120;, FH 5.
skills 2+int
LEVEL 3
Level Feat: Combat Expertise (trade up to 5 BAB for AC). Mineral Warrior: Burrow speed=1/2 land speed, Stacking +3 NA, 1/day earth strike (add con to attack), DR 8/adamantine.
skills 2+int
LEVEL 4
Fighter Feat: Spring Attack (may move before and after attack, no AoO from attacked creature)//OA Monk: +2 Intimidate, Power Attack. Wis to AC unarmoured, Flurry,
Imp Unarmed Strike, Monk unarmed strike progression.
skills 4+int
LEVEL 5
OA Monk: Evasion, Imp bull rush
skills 4+int
LEVEL 6
Cloistered Cleric: level 1 Cleric Casting, rebuke undead, Lore (ex, bardic knowledge), Three domain powers (knowledge traded for knowledge devotion feat (gain +atk/dmg for knowledge checks),
Time: Imp initiative, Pride: reroll nat 1s on saving throws)//Weapon Master 1: Ki Damage: 1/day/WM level after hitting before rolling weapon damage can declare max damage.
not on criticals. Level feat: Whirlwind attack.
skills 6+int
LEVEL 7
Weapon Master: Increase critical multiplier by 1 1/day/even levels//Druid: level 1 druid casting, +10 movement, Rage, Favoured enemy (good outsiders, +2 bluff, listen,
move silently, spot, and survival checks against them, +2 damage), no companion or wild shape.
skills 4+int
LEVEL 8
Weapon Master: Superior weapon focus (+1 atk)//Feat Rogue: Trap finding, Bonus feat: imp crit,
skills: 8+int
LEVEL 9
Level Feat: leadership, Warblade: (initiator lvl 4) Battle Clarity (ex, gain int to ref saves),
Manuvers: 3 known (emerald razor (attack is touch), Charging minotaur, Disarming strike), 3 readied, 1 stance (blood in the water)
skills 4+int
LEVEL 10
Weapon master: add wis to AoO per round//Human Paragon 1: make one skill (intimidate) always a class skill
skills 4+int
LEVEL 11
Human Paragon: feat: hold the line (gain AoO on charging enemies
skills 4+int
LEVEL 12
Weapon Master:+2 to crit range, level feat: Disciple of darkness (1/day +1 divine bonus)//Swordsage 1 (init lvl 5), +1 initiative, 6 known (feigned opening,
Shadow Garrot, Strenth draining strike, fan the flames, Drain Vitality, Fire Riposte), 4 ready, 1 stance (Thicket of blades)
skills 6+int
LEVEL 13
Factotum: 2 inspiration points, trap finding, Cunning insight (gain int to roll), Cunning knowledge (gain factotum level to skill check), Disciple of dipater:
Device lore: gain +2 to trap finding or disble of metal traps
skills 6+int
LEVEL 14
Factotum: Spells lvl 0, DoD: Iron hews (1/con/day gain +3 divine damage)
skills 6+int
LEVEL 15
Factotum: Brains over brawn (gain int to str and dex checks and skills), Cunning defense (point for int as dodge to ac), DOD: Rusting grasp (CL 15)
Level feat: Karmic Strike (can declare -4 AC at begining of turn to gain AoO on enemies that hit, penalty lasts till next turn)
skills 6+int
LEVEL 16
Feat rogue: Feat Sidestep (after AoO can take a 5' step, does count against 5' step for the round), evasion, DOD: Iron Power (+1 atk/dmg, crit range x2, stacks with Imp Crit)
skills 8+int
LEVEL 17
DOD: Summon one erinyes/day (cl 15), Warblade; (Initiator level 8) uncanny dodge, 1 manuever (lightning recovery: counter, reroll failed attack with +2)
skills 4+int
LEVEL 18
DOD: Greater Iron Hews (1/con/day +6 atk/dmg. separate ability from previous version), Warblade: (IL 9) Battle Ardor (+int to conf crits), 1 new manuever
(Rapid counter: Gain additional attack on an AoO, or use in place of an AoO to use later [will use in combo with sidestep and karmic strike])
Level feat: Brutal strike (DC = 10+damage from power attack or sickened)
skills 4+int
LEVEL 19
DOD: Stoneskin SLA 1/day (CL 15)/ Swordsage: (IL 9) AC (wis to AC in light armour), 1 new Maneuver (Bloodletting: strike deals 4 con), 1 new stance (Giant's stance:
deal damage as if you we one size larger)
skills 6+int
LEVEL 20
DOD: Iron Power 2: +2 atk/dmg, threat range triples. Binder 1: soul binding (likely naberous for disguise self at will, ability point healing, command 1/5 rounds, and taking 10 on diplomacy and bluff)

[arkangel111]

Holy crap dip happy. I don't even believe in penalizing for dipping but that's a bit much for my taste. I don't really understand what your actually wanting to accomplish to be honest. You say you want a competent fighter and well rounded but that can be accomplished a ton of other ways that aren't nearly as messy. I highly suggest you keep this character in the theory folder, your bookkeeping alone is going to be a nightmare. You're casting from 3 different classes with different spell lists (with differing caster levels and stats), Binding, Using various spell-like abilities (with differing caster levels and stats), AND Using 2 separate forms of maneuvers.
Factotum for example is generally considered an extremely well rounded class, and AMAZING for gestalting. factotum 8 gives you the extra actions to help make any "fighter" more viable, also gaining spells along the way. Speaking of fighter. ToB is allowed and yet you still grabbed vanilla fighter!!! what the hell dude?! there is literally nothing your gaining from fighter that you couldn't get better with more ToB class levels.
To be honest I could tear your build apart level by level, pointing out things like grabbing binder 1 at level 20, even for naberious is a waste, true seeing has been out so long its uncommon to see an enemy that doesn't have it by this time and the ability damage healing is not utilized in your build and also comes too late, but its just far easier to give a newer cleaner build. Unfortunately that's going to be tough unless you can give a specific goal and some criteria. I see you like critting a lot but your not actually built for that either (no lightning maces, and ton of attacks). I am going to assume your aiming for tier 3?!? despite a few dips into tier 1 I would not consider this thing more than tier 3 for sure. I might be being generous on my tier 3 ruling since at level 20 the ONLY thing you can really do reliably is damage and only if you can crit. You have a few tricks but mostly its just damage and things fighters can do with some magic items or UMD anyways.

I'll work on throwing something together that's at least cleaner and maybe hits the heart of your character but honestly more direction would be needed without just throwing random builds at you until they stick. Also I am not sure what sources are allowed. Seems your allowed a lot, and given either 3.0 or 3.5 even using unupdated versions.

[Rangô]

I absolutely agree with arkangel111, this is a mess. Try to look for ultimate concept and then stepdown to the basis of it.

[arkangel111]

Alright. So after much back and forth I have decided to revoke my last sentence. I will not be giving you a build until you give me a direction first. The more I dig into your build the more I hate it. Sorry but it's true. I know it sucks getting told your build is horrible and for that I apologize. Your character is literally being pulled in so many directions at once that there is absolutely no way to give you advice on it other than to clean it up. While "jack-of-all-trades" builds can work in certain situations I would not even consider you a jack, maybe a deuce. There is so many dips with each having their own goal that the character has no continuity from level to level.
Everytime I attempt to rebuild this guy and give him a direction I find a feat chain/class feature/template that pushes it in another direction and I know I am missing a good 90% of your concept (if you can call it that).

A few examples of some problems I have found:
Templates grant natural attacks but build relies solely on a 2h weapon
Massive damage can be achieved in select situations (nearly worthless against 90% of the foes you will face at your ECL) (PA+LA+ST is better)
Large size is gained (typically for reach purposes) but nothing is utilized in the build
Spell lists from everywhere but there is nothing beyond level 1 spells gained in most cases
Various stats added to various abilities but nothing is synergized (you made yourself MAD on purpose?)
You grab karmic strike (AoO on HIT) but then you pump your AC with templates and stacking stats

To be honest I think a straight warblade//Artificer would do everything your trying to do AND do it better. For feats I'd work in power attack, leap attack, shock trooper. You could even grab karmic strike with thicket of blades and it would have more synergy with shocktrooper, and you'd have the HP to back it up. Best news is you could keep the templates on the artificer side since nothing is gained past 14 really. All of your spell-like abilities can be duplicated (more than 1x per day even) with a magic item. While artificer can be a lot of bookkeeping, this character would have far less than your current idea.
But now you're probably beginning to see my conundrum. I just did everything better with a simple build yet still missed several things in your build (massive crits, natural attacks, large size (you get this with templates but i still did nothing with it)). I was working a build utilizing dervish/tempest//factotum and twf but then again your natural attacks take back seat and feral template is half wasted (pounce,rake, claws unused) and while you can go warblade into dervish/tempest the maneuver's can't really be highlighted.

Bottom line. If you want help on this forum your gonna have to give us an idea of WHO the character is and a few things that you MUST have to meet your concept. Then we can start trimming the fat and give you advice on how to build him. I'll check back later. Hopefully you can do some soul searching and give us direction.

(edited for accidental duplicate sentence)

[WeaselGuy]

Right off the bat, from looking at Weapon Master and Disciple of Dispater, I can tell you're going for a crit-fisher build. Only problem is, I would bet dollars to doughnuts that you're using the 3.0 Weapon Master PrC, (from Sword and Fist), when it got updated to 3.5 (in Complete Warrior) and isn't quite as useful for what you're wanting to do.

[ExLibrisMortis]

While "jack-of-all-trades" builds can work in certain situations I would not even consider you a jack, maybe a deuce. There is so many dips with each having their own goal that the character has no continuity from level to level.
Err, the build is actually consistently about heavy critical damage and full attacks. Let me classify the levels for you:

Fighter 1-5: Bonus feats, exotic weapon proficiency.
Weapon Master: Increased crit range/multiplier, whirlwind attack as standard action.
Disciple of Dispater: Increased crit range.
Half-ogre, half-minotaur, mineral warrior: strength boosts.
Feral: pounce.
Primordial giant, unseelie fey: cha/int equalizer, debuff, flight.
Monk: PA and Improved Bull Rush as monk feats, plus IUS.
Cleric: travel devotion + turn undead, skills, will save.
Druid: fast movement, rage, monk AC bonus, fast movement, track, favoured enemy.
Rogue: two bonus feats, skills, reflex save.
Warblade: maneuvers, uncanny dodge.
Human paragon: skills, bonus feat.
Swordsage: maneuvers.
Factotum: skills, int to str/dex checks and skills.
Binder: various - social skills and ability damage healing with Naberius, for example, or extra turn attempts with the Green Lady.

The spellcasting is mostly for wand use, the main attack strategy is charging, and then getting AoOs when your enemies retaliate.

I'm not sure why you'd take fighter 5 over warblade 1, though, or, for that matter, any other full base attack class. On the other hand, if you're going dungeoncrasher, fighter 6 is better than warblade 3.

[arkangel111]

Alright ExLM I'll use your same method to show you how much he is not using or has made redundant. Anything not used is ultimately the definition of being unoptimized. While I understand he has gained a lot he has also lost a lot due to redundancies or other abilities. the big one is pounce. He gained pounce which lets him "full-attack" on a charge yet then he loads himself up with standard action abilities that will likely never be used. With his pounce he also for some reason picked up pseudo-pounce (travel devotion).



Fighter 1-5: (used only for PRC reqs) exotic weapon (claws and IUS would be better with beast strike)
Weapon master (3.0 source may not be valid): Increased crit range/multiplier, whirlwind attack (maneuvers and pounce)
Disciple of Dispater: Increased crit range. Added damage, device lore (trapfinding), Rusting grasp/summon erinyes (1/day only) Ironskin (mineral warrior)
Half-ogre, half-minotaur, mineral warrior: strength boosts, Gore, AC boosts (karmic strike)
Feral: pounce, claws (hammer),Rake (see claws), imp grab (see claws), Rend (see claws)
Primordial giant, unseely fey: Cha/int equalizer, Debuff (cha based), Flight (nope mineral warrior)
Monk: PA, Improved Bull Rush, plus IUS (see claws)
Cleric: travel devotion (pounce), turn undead (only really useful for fueling travel devotion), skills, will save (OK i guess?), Spells (not used)
Druid: fast movement, rage (spell-likes and spells), monk AC bonus (Monk?, karmic strike), favoured enemy, Spells (not used)
Rogue: two bonus feats (see fighter), skills, reflex save (again, ok i guess)
Warblade: maneuvers (pounce kinda limits this usefulness), uncanny dodge, Battle clarity (limited to +1)
Human paragon: skills, bonus feat (see fighter), caster level (worthless)
Swordsage: maneuvers (see warblade), Unarmored AC (Monk/druid/wear better armor)
Factotum: skills, int to str/dex checks (why? more MAD), Inspiration (missing the good ability), Cunning insight/knowledge (why? more MAD), trapfinding (DoD, rogue), Arcane dilitante (could be used but 1st levels spells are not going to affect the game at ECL 20)
Binder: various (too little too late. Naberius would be nice but scrolls and wands are such a small cost at this level, besides what else are you using your spell slots on?)

You mention spellcasting is for wand use, well UMD cover's that (factotum) and you don't have to waste levels on it. Charging and critting the dude is all well and good (assuming can be crit, negated with creature types and even fortification). since he has pumped his AC through several different means including wasting a feat on combat expertise and spring attack, he is shooting himself in the foot.

[Troacctid]

Feral and Primordial Giant are actually both illegal on this build, as neither template can be applied to a fey. You also cannot be both human and half-ogre, since they are separate races, although IIRC the variant rules for half-humans in Races of Destiny would allow a half-ogre to still take Human Paragon levels.

Can't say I'm not a little baffled as to why you would take an odd number of fighter levels. Fighter 5 is doing what exactly?

Weapon Master was updated (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x) to Exotic Weapon Master in Complete Warrior and is probably no longer useful to you. Remember, 3.0 material is legal in 3.5 so long as it has not received an official update—but Weapon Master has, so it's not.

[Gildedragon]

Feral and Primordial Giant are actually both illegal on this build, as neither template can be applied to a fey. You also cannot be both human and half-ogre, since they are separate races, although IIRC the variant rules for half-humans in Races of Destiny would allow a half-ogre to still take Human Paragon levels.


Probably is talking about the Hogre template rather than race

[Troacctid]

RD half-ogre is the most recent version and supersedes previous versions, assuming you are using that book.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Fighter 1-5: (used only for PRC reqs) exotic weapon (claws and IUS would be better with beast strike)
Weapon master (3.0 source may not be valid): Increased crit range/multiplier, whirlwind attack (maneuvers and pounce)
Disciple of Dispater: Increased crit range. Added damage, device lore (trapfinding), Rusting grasp/summon erinyes (1/day only) Ironskin (mineral warrior)
Half-ogre, half-minotaur, mineral warrior: strength boosts, Gore, AC boosts (karmic strike)
Feral: pounce, claws (hammer),Rake (see claws), imp grab (see claws), Rend (see claws)
Primordial giant, unseely fey: Cha/int equalizer, Debuff (cha based), Flight (nope mineral warrior)
Monk: PA, Improved Bull Rush, plus IUS (see claws)
Cleric: travel devotion (pounce), turn undead (only really useful for fueling travel devotion), skills, will save (OK i guess?), Spells (not used)
Druid: fast movement, rage (spell-likes and spells), monk AC bonus (Monk?, karmic strike), favoured enemy, Spells (not used)
Rogue: two bonus feats (see fighter), skills, reflex save (again, ok i guess)
Warblade: maneuvers (pounce kinda limits this usefulness), uncanny dodge, Battle clarity (limited to +1)
Human paragon: skills, bonus feat (see fighter), caster level (worthless)
Swordsage: maneuvers (see warblade), Unarmored AC (Monk/druid/wear better armor)
Factotum: skills, int to str/dex checks (why? more MAD), Inspiration (missing the good ability), Cunning insight/knowledge (why? more MAD), trapfinding (DoD, rogue), Arcane dilitante (could be used but 1st levels spells are not going to affect the game at ECL 20)
Binder: various (too little too late. Naberius would be nice but scrolls and wands are such a small cost at this level, besides what else are you using your spell slots on?)

You mention spellcasting is for wand use, well UMD cover's that (factotum) and you don't have to waste levels on it. Charging and critting the dude is all well and good (assuming can be crit, negated with creature types and even fortification). since he has pumped his AC through several different means including wasting a feat on combat expertise and spring attack, he is shooting himself in the foot.
First, I was mistaken about Travel Devotion, it's just knowledge devotion, time domain (Improved Initiative) and pride domain (reroll 1s on saves), so effectively a single-level dip for two feats, a useful ability, skill points and a good will save. A classic dip, but it leaves you wondering what TU is going to be used for. As for the rest:

1a) A minotaur greathammer has a 4x critical multiplier, unlike claws/IUS.
1b) A minotaur greathammer is made of metal, so it works with Disciple of Dispater, unlike claws/IUS.
1c) A minotaur greathammer fits the character concept. You can also optimize claws/IUS with the same levels (except DoD), but the OP chose not to.
1d) Claws and gore can still be used as secondary natural attacks, which is a good suggestion for the OP: take Multiattack.

2a) Disciple of Dispater is good enough just with the crit range increases.
2b) The strength boosting templates are worth it just for the stats.
2c) The feral template is used for pounce, fast movement, fast healing, and some stat boosts. That's plenty. However, it must be applied first.
2d) Unseelie Fey must be applied after mineral warrior for the flight to work, good catch. It must be applied last for Primordial Giant and Feral to work.
2e) The monk, cleric, rogue, and druid levels are worth it for the feats and minor abilities.
2f) In short, those 'wasted' abilities aren't that relevant. Sometimes a class or template comes with chaff. Easier wand use is just a perk, just like Rend and Rake.

(part below is mostly relevant to the OP)
3a) Weapon Master is not 3.5 legal, as per Troacctid's post.
3b) The go-to fix is to dip ardent 1, take Practiced Manifester, and get into psychic weapon master.
3c) Ardent mantles are perfect for a dip-happy build like this. I suggest choosing between Conflict (grants Weapon Focus), Freedom (+10' speed while focused), and Time (+2 initiative).
3d) You need to craft your weapon of some crystal that counts as metal (it exist, just can't think of the name right now). This will allow it to work with Disciple of Dispater.
3e) I wouldn't take the human paragon levels. Psychic warrior 2 is better, possibly providing a mantle, expansion a few times a day, and always at least fighter bonus feats.

4a) Maneuvers are very useful just for Iron Heart Surge, counters and boosts. Enough maneuvers work fine with plain full attacking.
4b) Critical warblade maneuvers include White Raven Tactics, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Iron Heart Surge. Rapid Counter can be fun too, with Karmic Strike.
4c) Shadow Stride is a critical swordsage maneuver. Also consider Dancing Mongoose, Fountain of Blood, Blood in the Water, and Sudden Leap.
4d) In general, select counters, boosts, and utility maneuvers. You already have plenty of damage.
4e) Battle Clarity maxes out at +3. Warblade 3 also provides int to confirm crits, which is pretty good, considering the 5-20 crit range.

5a) I'm pretty sure that Karmic Strike and Spring Attack are just a 'nice to have', because Weapon Master requires Dodge and Mobility, as does Psychic Weapon Master.
5b) Combat Reflexes is taken because if you do, you get wis to AoOs/round from Weapon Master.
5c) MAD is an issue, but not crippling. With the templates, it's easy enough to get high stats.
5d) However, even if 5c applies, the OP's total stat boosts are +8 str +4 con -6 int +2 cha. That doesn't work well with warblade, Knowledge Devotion or factotum at all.
5e) I'm not 100% sure how to fix the intelligence deficiency, other than to apply yet another template.
5f) Binder is a bit late, for sure. I'm guessing (well, hoping) this build was meant to be played at 20, else it's not going to do much.

Sorry about the long list, I wrote it up as paragraphs, but that just got terribly unreadable. In any case, I think we're getting much closer to the problems with the build. I won't argue that a straight warblade is much more elegant and - in my opinion - fun to play, but you can make a build work like this. It's a matter of polishing some feat and maneuver selections.

[arkangel111]

ExLM- I agree with much of what you said. some of it works for his concept, but in my opinion he is bypassing so much and turning away from his strengths.

about travel devotion, I assumed he had it cause you mentioned it, never even looked back over it. just shows how messy this character is. regardless knowledge devotion was gained and you can see my argument in 5 for that.


1. Feral is a great template and honestly I prefer it over the common Barb dip. The thing I don't understand is why the character would pick up a warhammer in the first place. His claws are doing more damage on average for nearly the whole lifespan of his character, especially when you consider he'll net 4 attacks @20 with the hammer and he gets 5 attacks with claws, rend, rake AND 4 unarmed attacks. a single feat (as opposed to 15 levels and a feat to make hammer useful) can give him 4d6 for each attack as opposed to the 3d6 for hammer. A little bit of investment and rework on the character (especially in gestalt) can give him even further gains.
Now admittedly his crit range and damage won't be as high per hit without the change, I'd have to do the math to see which is better overall, but my money is still on the claws afterall a miss with the hammer will be losing 1/4 your damage for the round while with the claw it won't matter unless you miss the majority of your attacks. There are ways to further enhance his claws crit range and multiplier that will help close the gap on damage.

2. No idea what to do about that template stacking. I see why he did some of it, after all if its free you'd be dumb not to take it. Disciple of dispater is a great thing to work around if that's what he really wants I just don't think the way he worked around it was optimal. I don't agree with your 2e statement. 4 class levels is a lot of investment for what little he got out of it, if he wasn't trying to meet so many other requirements or picking up crap feats he wouldn't need the dips in the first place.

3. The ardent dip into PWM could probably help focus him more and its legal so I am all for it. His big problem would again be feats. Using the crystal/metal weapon would be good but remember its got to be crystal/steel as iron could be an argument with the DM, afterall unseely fey hate iron. I agree with the PW suggestion as well after all its hard to be a human paragon if your not really human anyways.

4. I agree totally with this whole section, which is part of my argument. With all of the wonders that are gained just from a dip I can't help but say, why not stay or focus here? There is so much he is passing by all because he has forced himself into a corner (fighter 5 (4 actually but hey we agree the 5 is odd) must be taken to qualify for both WM and DoD). His build is very feat intensive and because of this he has been forced from one dip into another. You are right on the +3 for battle clarity though he won't have the int for it either way, same applies to the crit confirmation. Its so dip happy its easy to miss things.

5.(a) Nice to have and cluttering the build is a fine line though. I don't even think he is actually gaining enough use out of either in the long run, now ww was free so its hard to really argue against it but he seems built against using karmic strike, not for it. (b-e) I would argue he has crippled himself. Because he has made himself so MAD though he is actually not getting anything from many his class features even though he has them on paper. think about it, on a 32 pt buy he must spend half his allotment on int just to get +1 to clarity, +1 to crit confirm, +1 to str/dex checks, +1 dodge, +1 atk/dmg/saves (pick one), oh yea and knowledge devotion is in here too. Throw in the fact that he needs wis to buff his ac and AoO's and other things and he has to invest at least 20 of his 32 points into 2 stats for a few +1's and neither of these are even helping with the main portion of his build yet. yes he can afford to dump str and con due to his massive boost, but it would be better to pump those and lose the wasted level/feats. (f) Again I don't think he's actually getting anything from the dip. his int bonus assuming he puts an 18 starting (now 12) is not going to give him a lot of skill points. He pointed out naberius so I'll focus my attention there. As I stated earlier the disguise self is nearly worthless at 20, besides it doesn't work as well for a large creature anyways. The social boosters are nice but where is he getting the skill points to make this useful? The ability healing is nice I admit that, but hardly worth the dip by itself, at least in this build. Yes there are a ton of other bindings he can grab for various situations and all of them have their niche uses I just think he could have got more for his dip if he instead was looking for something specific instead of general. To me it seems he grabbed binder to finally claim he "rounded out" his character, a goal he mentioned in the OP anyways.

lastly as a side note. You were right about your way looking cleaner but I already typed this up and am too lazy to go back and list it instead. So, sorry for the wall of text. I love build challenges so I hope the OP returns to give us direction, Unfortunately life has been too busy so I can't do anymore IC atm, but this is still fun.

[Troacctid]

2c) The feral template is used for pounce, fast movement, fast healing, and some stat boosts. That's plenty. However, it must be applied first.
2d) Unseelie Fey must be applied after mineral warrior for the flight to work, good catch.

You cannot apply acquired templates before inherited templates.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You cannot apply acquired templates before inherited templates.
Huh. Fancy that. I never realized that was acquired - it looks pretty in-born. Better throw the template out, then. Should bring intelligence back up a bit, as well.


1. Feral is a great template and honestly I prefer it over the common Barb dip. The thing I don't understand is why the character would pick up a warhammer in the first place. His claws are doing more damage on average for nearly the whole lifespan of his character, especially when you consider he'll net 4 attacks @20 with the hammer and he gets 5 attacks with claws, rend, rake AND 4 unarmed attacks. a single feat (as opposed to 15 levels and a feat to make hammer useful) can give him 4d6 for each attack as opposed to the 3d6 for hammer. A little bit of investment and rework on the character (especially in gestalt) can give him even further gains.
Now admittedly his crit range and damage won't be as high per hit without the change, I'd have to do the math to see which is better overall, but my money is still on the claws afterall a miss with the hammer will be losing 1/4 your damage for the round while with the claw it won't matter unless you miss the majority of your attacks. There are ways to further enhance his claws crit range and multiplier that will help close the gap on damage.

2. No idea what to do about that template stacking. I see why he did some of it, after all if its free you'd be dumb not to take it. Disciple of dispater is a great thing to work around if that's what he really wants I just don't think the way he worked around it was optimal. I don't agree with your 2e statement. 4 class levels is a lot of investment for what little he got out of it, if he wasn't trying to meet so many other requirements or picking up crap feats he wouldn't need the dips in the first place.

3. The ardent dip into PWM could probably help focus him more and its legal so I am all for it. His big problem would again be feats. Using the crystal/metal weapon would be good but remember its got to be crystal/steel as iron could be an argument with the DM, afterall unseely fey hate iron. I agree with the PW suggestion as well after all its hard to be a human paragon if your not really human anyways.

4. I agree totally with this whole section, which is part of my argument. With all of the wonders that are gained just from a dip I can't help but say, why not stay or focus here? There is so much he is passing by all because he has forced himself into a corner (fighter 5 (4 actually but hey we agree the 5 is odd) must be taken to qualify for both WM and DoD). His build is very feat intensive and because of this he has been forced from one dip into another. You are right on the +3 for battle clarity though he won't have the int for it either way, same applies to the crit confirmation. Its so dip happy its easy to miss things.

5.(a) Nice to have and cluttering the build is a fine line though. I don't even think he is actually gaining enough use out of either in the long run, now ww was free so its hard to really argue against it but he seems built against using karmic strike, not for it. (b-e) I would argue he has crippled himself. Because he has made himself so MAD though he is actually not getting anything from many his class features even though he has them on paper. think about it, on a 32 pt buy he must spend half his allotment on int just to get +1 to clarity, +1 to crit confirm, +1 to str/dex checks, +1 dodge, +1 atk/dmg/saves (pick one), oh yea and knowledge devotion is in here too. Throw in the fact that he needs wis to buff his ac and AoO's and other things and he has to invest at least 20 of his 32 points into 2 stats for a few +1's and neither of these are even helping with the main portion of his build yet. yes he can afford to dump str and con due to his massive boost, but it would be better to pump those and lose the wasted level/feats. (f) Again I don't think he's actually getting anything from the dip. his int bonus assuming he puts an 18 starting (now 12) is not going to give him a lot of skill points. He pointed out naberius so I'll focus my attention there. As I stated earlier the disguise self is nearly worthless at 20, besides it doesn't work as well for a large creature anyways. The social boosters are nice but where is he getting the skill points to make this useful? The ability healing is nice I admit that, but hardly worth the dip by itself, at least in this build. Yes there are a ton of other bindings he can grab for various situations and all of them have their niche uses I just think he could have got more for his dip if he instead was looking for something specific instead of general. To me it seems he grabbed binder to finally claim he "rounded out" his character, a goal he mentioned in the OP anyways.

lastly as a side note. You were right about your way looking cleaner but I already typed this up and am too lazy to go back and list it instead. So, sorry for the wall of text. I love build challenges so I hope the OP returns to give us direction, Unfortunately life has been too busy so I can't do anymore IC atm, but this is still fun.
1) I think the issue with claw spam versus heavy crits with a minotaur hammer mostly comes down to a flavour choice. I also think the hammer still does more damage, because an 80% chance of 4x damage is better than anything you're going to get on claws. It doesn't matter how many attacks you get and how many miss (75% of 4 attacks missing is equal to 75% of 6 attacks missing) - in the end, accuracy is still a percentage that gets multiplied into your damage, and it's not going to be that different between claws and hammer.


Primary IUS/claws: six attacks, 6d6+12 = 33 average damage each, plus rend (double claw damage), total 198+66 average damage. 19-20/x2 crit, average damage after crit: 217.8+66.
Hammer: four attacks, 3d6+18 = 29.5 average damage each, total 118 average damage. 5-20/x4 crit, average damage after crit: 401.2.

It's a difference of about 120 damage, or the claws doing about 70% of the hammer's damage, and Power Attack (and haste, but not Dancing Mongoose/Raging Mongoose) will favour the hammer. You can technically still trigger Rend with secondary attacks, too, which also favours the hammer, as Rend triggers only once per target per round. I'm assuming that the secondary attacks are roughly equally effective between builds, but you do need Multiattack in there.
An issue: you need a whole bunch of weapon crystals, or you won't be able to crit everything. And you need to take levels in Exoticist fighter, or you're losing a feat on EWP (I was assuming this all along, but I might not have been clear about that).

You'll definitely want Shock Trooper in there, which also synergizes with Karmic Strike, and presumably Robilar's Gambit, which synergizes as well (enemies get +4 to hit you), and works nicely with both Dex and Wis to the number of AoOs you get to take. I think you mentioned that before.

2) Six levels - two monk, two rogue, one druid, one cleric - for the following: +20' movement speed, Rage 1/day, Turn Undead, Favoured Enemy, wisdom to AC (twice, nonstacking), Evasion (twice, so you get Improved Evasion, or an ACF), Pride domain power (reroll 1s on saves), Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Knowledge Devotion, Power Attack, Track, and two fighter bonus feats. You also decent skill points, and save bumps to your important will save. I think it's worth it, as it rounds out the character defensively, and provides a lot of troublesome prerequisite feats.

3) Feats are the problem for WM/PWM, definitely. Unseelie fey are hurt by steel, too, but unless it's cold iron, they get to use their DR/cold iron as normal, even against the 1 damage they take for just touching metal. So although they'd be vulnerable, it can (should!) be solved via some interesting RP.

4) Yep. If Mineral Warrior is out, as per the above, int should come back up.

5) I agree, I didn't think the MAD was so bad, until I realized just how low his mental stats were going with the templates (as per 5d). And binder could probably be improved on.

So how about we'll try a revised build, I've been looking through some playable devils with a nice ability spread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?401132-Lists-of-Every-Playable-Monster-by-ECL), but the really low ECLs don't have much.

fighter 6/disciple of dispater 8/psychic weapon master 6//monk 2/rogue 2/ardent 1/psychic weapon master 1/psychic warrior 2/warblade 1 (IL 5)/[stuff]/warblade +1 (IL 7)/[stuff]/warblade +1 (IL 9) etc.

or: fighter 6/disciple of dispater 8/psychic weapon master 6//[prequisites 5]/psychic weapon master 1/[dips 14]. Still dip-happy and crazy, but that's the point, I guess. Fighter levels are dungeoncrasher exoticist. The latter part of the dips should preferably tie the whole thing together. I think the core concept is to have a lawful evil not-very-magical brute, who charges into groups of enemies, deals heavy critical damage (including all sorts of magic weapon goodness), and then uses Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit to pound retaliating enemies into dust.

Or maybe the OP will shoot us down, it can happen :smalltongue:. Good fun either way.

[arkangel111]

Alright so here's a stub I got that keeps the hammer (it probably is partially a flavor thing afterall)

Psywar 4/Exoticist Fighter 2/Psychic weapon master 10/Disciple of dispater 4*//Templates 2**/OA Monk 2/Factotum 8/Swordsage 2/Warblade 6

*Made more of a dip since after 4 little is gained that will be used. More damage is nice but he's hitting like a truck already.
**Haven't checked templates yet but if Mineral warrior is off the table that reduces the LA by 1 at least

I could list the feats by level gained but its actually possible to qualify for the following almost entirely on 1 side of the build.

All pre-req feats of course
Karmic strike+Robilars Gambit+combat reflexes -- Retaliation is still possible
PA+LA+ST -- ST helps with the above and the combo gives massive damage boosts
Imp. Trip + Knockdown -- more retaliation AND the damage triggers constant trips which gives more attacks

IF the build is to be played at 20 this probably works but if leveling is needed then it probably needs tweaked.

The good thing about that build is that you only WANT high strength (technically not needed, it could function with 14). Int is nice too since it fuels Warblade and Factotum, and Dex isn't a bad option but its not a high priority need just enough wis to cast your highest spell. Still a little MAD but most stats would just be icing on the cake and not a requirement.

The large factotum dip is going to round out the character nicely as can picking up some utility stances and maneuvers through warblade and swordsage, or powers through Psywar.

The build has a few more dips than I'd like still but that probably comes from falling into the mindset of IC. Ultimately anything his build can do this one should be able to mimic(ish) if really wanted.