PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Martial Archetype: Dark Knight [PEACH]



Professor Gnoll
2016-05-24, 05:40 AM
Martial Archetype: Dark Knight

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/3/3f/BDPB_Dark_Knight.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131224033242
Alternis Dim, Dark Knight of Eternia.
Image property of Square Enix.

This is the first of hopefully several conversions of Bravely Default Asterisk Jobs into 5th Edition classes and archetypes.

Dark Knights are warriors that have learned to harness the power of hatred and pain, transforming their injuries into dark energy and combat prowess. They revel in shedding the blood of their enemies and receiving injuries of their own, throwing themselves into the thick of combat with a complete disregard for their own safety. To walk the path of a Dark Knight is to devote one's self entirely to combat, abandoning self-preservation in exchange for wreaking havoc upon one's enemies. To face a Dark Knight is to face a warrior that only grows more powerful as they are injured, a warrior that will fight until the very brink of death- and even beyond.

The Dark Knight is a Martial Archetype for the Fighter, selected at 3rd level.

Adversity: Starting at 3rd level, after choosing this archetype, you are able to transform your pain into rage, using it to fuel your combat prowess. Once a turn, when you take damage from an enemy or your Dark Bane attack, you gain an Adversity Dice, which is a D6. An Adversity Dice is expended when you use it, or after 1 minute. When you make an attack roll, damage roll, or Constitution saving throw, you may roll a single Adversity Die and add the result to your roll. You may wait until after rolling the D20 to choose to add the result, but must decide before the DM says whether the roll succeeded or failed. At 10th level, your Adversity Dice turn into D8s. At 18th level, they turn into D10s. At any one time, you may have a maximum of four Adversity Dice. This maximum increases to five die at 7th level and six at 15th level.

Dark Bane: At 7th level, you learn to channel your life-force into your attacks, injuring yourself in order to destroy your opponents with dark energy. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you may add either 1D8, 2D8 or 3D8 damage to your attack, in addition to your Con modifier. This bonus damage is Necrotic. Immediately after you use your Dark Bane, you take Necrotic damage equal to the result of your rolls. The damage that you take cannot be resisted or ignored by any means. Additionally, you may expend an Adversity dice to force the target to take a Constitution saving throw or be blinded until the end of your next turn. The saving throw DC for this effect is 8 + the result of the Adversity Dice + your Con modifier.

Minus Strike: Starting at 10th level, you can convert your injuries into negative energy, letting your opponent feel your pain. When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you may choose to force them to take a Con saving throw. The DC for this saving throw is 8 + your Proficiency bonus + your Con modifier. On a failed saving throw, the target takes additional Necrotic damage equal to half of your missing HP, rounding up. On a success, you instead take damage equal to a quarter of your HP, rounding up. After using this ability, you must take a short rest before you can use it again.

See You in Hell: At 15th level, your hatred lingers past your ability to fight on, and your spite translates into pain for your foes. When you are reduced to 0 HP, you may choose to deal 6D10 + your Con modifier Necrotic Damage to every creature within 20ft of you. Once you have used this ability, you must take a short rest before you can use it again.

Life or Death: At 18th level, you may enter a state of pain-fuelled rage, during which your Dark Knight abilities reach a new level of power. For a number of turns equal to your 1+ your Con modifier, you gain the following effects:

Abate Dark: You can see in dim light within 60ft of you as if it were bright light, and dark light as if it were dim light.

Dark Nebula: Whenever you use your Dark Bane, all enemies within 10ft receive damage equal to the result rolled + your Con modifier.

Gloom: Whenever you expend an Adversity Dice, you may create a cloud of darkness around you. This cloud takes the form of a 10ft sphere of dark light, centred on you, that lasts until the end of your Life and Death state. You can see in this darkness as if it were bright light. In addition, every enemy within 10ft takes damage equal to the result rolled on your Adversity Dice plus your Con modifier.

Once your Life or Death state ends, you immediately drop to 0 HP. You must complete a long rest before you can use this ability again.

The Dark Knight Martial Archetype is intended as a conversion of the Dark Knight job from Bravely Default into 5th edition. The idea behind the class is obvious: Take damage to deal damage. The ability names are all named after aspects of the Job from the game, though some of the functions have changed. However, the basic concepts behind them remain the same. Adversity gives you bonuses when you take damage, Dark Bane lets you damage yourself to make a dark attack, etc, etc. A few possible concerns:
-It may be too easy to obtain Adversity dice. While I specifically stated that the only way to gain them through self-harm is via Dark Bane, a horde of weaker enemies or an enemy that makes a lot of attacks in one round very quickly power you up. I may need to reduce the die size or put a cap on how many you can receive each round.
-Minus Strike may be too powerful. I'm hoping its balanced by needing to be on low health to use it effectively, but I'm still not entirely sure.
Overall, though, pretty happy with how it turned out. Next up, Bravely Second's Chariot.

Please feel free to comment, honest critique and suggestions would be appreciated.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-05-24, 06:10 AM
-It may be too easy to obtain Adversity dice. While I specifically stated that the only way to gain them through self-harm is via Dark Bane, a horde of weaker enemies or an enemy that makes a lot of attacks in one round very quickly power you up. I may need to reduce the die size or put a cap on how many you can receive each round.

This is my main concern, too. The rest of the subclass is very good! I mean, I've never heard of Bravely Default Asterisk or whatever, but this is one of the better '5e class that takes damage to deal damage' implementations I've seen.

My first instinct is to say:

No more than one Adversity Die gained per turn.
No more than one spent per roll.
Maximum stored at any one time equal to the Battlemaster's max Superiority Dice.
Fade after 1 minute, not 10.
Possibly step down the dice size, but I don't think that's necessary.

Professor Gnoll
2016-05-24, 06:16 AM
This is my main concern, too. The rest of the subclass is very good! I mean, I've never heard of Bravely Default Asterisk or whatever, but this is one of the better '5e class that takes damage to deal damage' implementations I've seen.

My first instinct is to say:

No more than one Adversity Die gained per turn.
No more than one spent per roll.
Maximum stored at any one time equal to the Battlemaster's max Superiority Dice.
Fade after 1 minute, not 10.
Possibly step down the dice size, but I don't think that's necessary.
All good points, all added. Thanks for the feedback.

Final Hyena
2016-05-24, 09:59 AM
The class seems like a fun (albeit likely sub par) variant of battle master at 3rd, the 7th level options round it out nicely.
By the time you get Minus Strike having 90+hp is fairly easy, even if you play it safe an extra 50 damage nova is insane, and it keeps scaling.
See You in Hell is 30 aoe damage output on top of that.

Minus Strike is the main concern, given the flavour text;

To face a Dark Knight is to face a warrior that only grows more powerful as they are injured, a warrior that will fight until the very brink of death- and even beyond.
Perhaps changing it to an ability that allows them to attack at 0hp, maybe necrotic energy lashes out from your corpse. It is a damage boost, but encourages enemies to finish you off risking death.

Grey Watcher
2016-05-24, 12:18 PM
Martial Archetype: Dark Knight

Yay, Dark Knights! I tried to do this a while back (using FF4 as a starting point, rather than Bravely Default), but yours is overall more elegant.




Adversity: ... This maximum increases to five die at 7th level and six at 15th level.


Minor error, this should be dice (on the off chance you're planning on publishing this on DM's Guild or something).



Dark Bane: ... you may add an additional 1D8/2D8/3D8+ your Con modifier. ...

I understand you're trying to convey "pick a number of dice to roll" but I think you're better of saying that with words, since it's a bit ambiguous as to whether this is an option or a level progression.


The saving throw DC for this effect is 10 + the result of the Adversity Dice + your Con modifier.

The standard formula for saving throw DC's is 8 + Stuff. Is there a reason you did 10? In a bounded accuracy system, that seems like a lot, especially on top of a good roll with the Adversity Dice. (That, at least, carries the risk of a crummy roll.)


Life or Death: ...

Darkvision: You can see in dim light within 60ft of you as if it were bright light, and dark light as if it were dim light.

...

Gloom: Whenever you expend an Adversity Dice, you may create a cloud of darkness around you. This cloud takes the form of a 10ft sphere of dark light, centred on you, that lasts until the end of your Life and Death state. In addition, every enemy within 10ft takes damage equal to the result rolled on your Adversity Dice plus your Con modifier.

Darkvision normally does not penetrate magical darkness. I presume that the Dark Knight can see through her own Gloom, but it'd be good to spell out explicitly.

Professor Gnoll
2016-05-24, 04:53 PM
The class seems like a fun (albeit likely sub par) variant of battle master at 3rd, the 7th level options round it out nicely.
By the time you get Minus Strike having 90+hp is fairly easy, even if you play it safe an extra 50 damage nova is insane, and it keeps scaling.
See You in Hell is 30 aoe damage output on top of that.

Minus Strike is the main concern, given the flavour text;

Perhaps changing it to an ability that allows them to attack at 0hp, maybe necrotic energy lashes out from your corpse. It is a damage boost, but encourages enemies to finish you off risking death.
I'm very fond of Minus Strike as an ability, though. I'd rather limit the usage/power of the ability than change the mechanic entirely. It seems a bit weird to make it once per Long Rest, though- maybe half of your missing HP? Add a percentage of your missing HP to Dark Bane attacks?
The 'fighting beyond death' line is a reference to See You in Hell. If you think it's too much, See You in Hell could perhaps be once per Short Rest, to avoid small-heal-then-kill-yourself-with-Dark-Bane shenanigans.

I'm very fond of Minus Strike as an ability, though. I'd rather limit the usage/power of the ability than change the mechanic entirely. It seems a bit weird to make it once per Long Rest, though- maybe half of your missing HP? Add a percentage of your missing HP to Dark Bane attacks?

Yay, Dark Knights! I tried to do this a while back (using FF4 as a starting point, rather than Bravely Default), but yours is overall more elegant.

Minor error, this should be dice (on the off chance you're planning on publishing this on DM's Guild or something).

I understand you're trying to convey "pick a number of dice to roll" but I think you're better of saying that with words, since it's a bit ambiguous as to whether this is an option or a level progression.
Thanks, changed.


The standard formula for saving throw DC's is 8 + Stuff. Is there a reason you did 10? In a bounded accuracy system, that seems like a lot, especially on top of a good roll with the Adversity Dice. (That, at least, carries the risk of a crummy roll.)
This is what happens when you forget to check the formula. Just a mistake.



Darkvision normally does not penetrate magical darkness. I presume that the Dark Knight can see through her own Gloom, but it'd be good to spell out explicitly.
Another mistake. Thanks for pointing all of these out, I completely missed them.

Final Hyena
2016-05-24, 05:23 PM
My feeling is that by level 7 the Dark Knight is on par with a battle master and scales with it's existing features. The 10 and 15th level features add on top of that.

One idea is giving Minus Strike a Con save, on a fail they take half your missing hp in necrotic damage, on a pass you take it.

If See You in Hell hit everybody that would be a bit more risky, encouraging rushing through the enemy ranks.

Professor Gnoll
2016-05-24, 06:04 PM
My feeling is that by level 7 the Dark Knight is on par with a battle master and scales with it's existing features. The 10 and 15th level features add on top of that.

One idea is giving Minus Strike a Con save, on a fail they take half your missing hp in necrotic damage, on a pass you take it.

If See You in Hell hit everybody that would be a bit more risky, encouraging rushing through the enemy ranks.
I feel like that might make Minus Strike a bit too risky, though- immediately falling unconscious if it fails is pretty extreme. I do like the potential backlash idea, though, and the Con save makes sense.
EDIT: Made it so that if they pass their saving throw, you take a quarter of your HP in damage. Still pretty bad, but won't actually immediately kill you. Also encourages using it at as low health as possible, to minimise the possible backlash (while obviously maximising the damage).
I also like making See You in Hell hit everybody. It rewards rushing in with reckless abandon and punishes hanging back too much. Changed it to suit.

Professor Gnoll
2016-05-25, 10:39 PM
If no one's got any other criticisms or comments, am I safe to call this balanced and usable for a game?

JeenLeen
2016-05-26, 09:33 AM
I think I found an exploit to this class. Nothing that necessarily needs to change, but I wanted to point it out.
Basically, making the Dark Knight into a bomb via the party having readied actions.

Have a wounded Dark Knight walk into a cluster of enemies. If necessary, prep by having teammates attack the Dark Knight or the Dark Knight hit himself.

The Dark Knight attacks himself, to drop to 0 HP (or just waits until enemies reduce to 0 HP), triggering See You in Hell.

Readied action to heal the Dark Knight (ideally from range), such as Healing Word.
Another PC has a readied action to hit the Dark Knight with an arrow, dropping him back to 0 HP, triggering See You in Hell again.

If enough PCs (or hired level 1 helpers), repeat.

I haven't played a high-level game, so this might not even be relevant or that powerful at 15th-level, but this idea hit me when I read the class description.

Also, with See You in Hell:
I'm not sure if "each creature" would by default include the Dark Knight, thereby causing you to suffer a failed death save.
This power is dangerous, since if triggered in combat, it hurts your allies. (That it hits your allies is a good limiter on the 'bomb' technique, though.)
Although you say "into pain for your foes", the actual mechanics don't distinguish between friend and foe. Add a note that hostile creatures take the damage, if that's your intent.

Final Hyena
2016-05-26, 09:43 AM
Make it once per short rest?

Professor Gnoll
2016-05-26, 04:24 PM
Also, with See You in Hell:
I'm not sure if "each creature" would by default include the Dark Knight, thereby causing you to suffer a failed death save.
This power is dangerous, since if triggered in combat, it hurts your allies. (That it hits your allies is a good limiter on the 'bomb' technique, though.)
Although you say "into pain for your foes", the actual mechanics don't distinguish between friend and foe. Add a note that hostile creatures take the damage, if that's your intent.
Fair enough. It was an intentional decision made to have it hit both friend and foe; to encourage getting into the thick of things rather than holding back.
I'll make it once per short rest, but I'm not sure if it's good enough now, because Short Rests aren't a guarantee. What if it cost an Adversity Die to use? That would still limit it, but allow for multiple uses.

JeenLeen
2016-05-27, 10:25 AM
Fair enough. It was an intentional decision made to have it hit both friend and foe; to encourage getting into the thick of things rather than holding back.
I'll make it once per short rest, but I'm not sure if it's good enough now, because Short Rests aren't a guarantee. What if it cost an Adversity Die to use? That would still limit it, but allow for multiple uses.

Costing an adversity die and making it optional, though with an explicit note that you can choose to activate it when incapacitated?

To force a player to use up their adversity dice seems unfair, and this also helps the Dark Knight not accidentally kill his allies.

Edit: another thought is to make it optional, but have it be usable <relevant stat>-mod times per short/long rest. Or any combination of limited by stat mod, by resting, by adversity die, and/or being optional.

I know I would hesitate to take a class that might make me kill my allies by mistake. If I get ambushed by archers, they might not just kill me but also severely injure my party, at no risk to themselves.

Grey Watcher
2016-05-27, 11:18 AM
Fair enough. It was an intentional decision made to have it hit both friend and foe; to encourage getting into the thick of things rather than holding back.
I'll make it once per short rest, but I'm not sure if it's good enough now, because Short Rests aren't a guarantee. What if it cost an Adversity Die to use? That would still limit it, but allow for multiple uses.


Costing an adversity die and making it optional, though with an explicit note that you can choose to activate it when incapacitated?

To force a player to use up their adversity dice seems unfair, and this also helps the Dark Knight not accidentally kill his allies.

Edit: another thought is to make it optional, but have it be usable <relevant stat>-mod times per short/long rest. Or any combination of limited by stat mod, by resting, by adversity die, and/or being optional.

I know I would hesitate to take a class that might make me kill my allies by mistake. If I get ambushed by archers, they might not just kill me but also severely injure my party, at no risk to themselves.

I definitely second the "at player's option" thing.

Probably shouldn't hit the Dark Knight herself, since having to go down in melee to use it is pretty risky already.

I actually think you're better off just flat-out limiting it to once per short, or even long rest. It really strikes me more as a finishing move kinda thing. Like going down during a boss fight, or something. Compare/contrast a Berserker Barbarian's Frenzied Rage: a level of Exhaustion is pretty punishing, so it's clearly not meant to be something your meant to use every fight. (Of course, Frenzied Rage isn't exactly a one-and-done thing like See You in Hell, so... :shrug:)

Professor Gnoll
2016-05-27, 09:04 PM
Costing an adversity die and making it optional, though with an explicit note that you can choose to activate it when incapacitated?

To force a player to use up their adversity dice seems unfair, and this also helps the Dark Knight not accidentally kill his allies.

Edit: another thought is to make it optional, but have it be usable <relevant stat>-mod times per short/long rest. Or any combination of limited by stat mod, by resting, by adversity die, and/or being optional.

I know I would hesitate to take a class that might make me kill my allies by mistake. If I get ambushed by archers, they might not just kill me but also severely injure my party, at no risk to themselves.

I definitely second the "at player's option" thing.

Probably shouldn't hit the Dark Knight herself, since having to go down in melee to use it is pretty risky already.

I actually think you're better off just flat-out limiting it to once per short, or even long rest. It really strikes me more as a finishing move kinda thing. Like going down during a boss fight, or something. Compare/contrast a Berserker Barbarian's Frenzied Rage: a level of Exhaustion is pretty punishing, so it's clearly not meant to be something your meant to use every fight. (Of course, Frenzied Rage isn't exactly a one-and-done thing like See You in Hell, so... :shrug:)
Fair enough. All good points. If it's going to be once per Short Rest, should the damage be higher? I'm a little nebulous on what constitutes good damage at that level, so now I'm wondering if that's enough.

Any opinions on Life and Death? I'm not certain if its quite good enough. Perhaps it should also improve your Dark Bane, or give Necrotic Damage Resistance?