Oh hey, they made poison viable under our noses!

[Kevingway]

So the most recent DMG Errata just did this cool little thing:


Injury poison can be applied to weapons, ammunition,
trap components, and other objects that deal piercing or
slashing damage and remains potent until delivered through a
wound or washed off. A creature that takes piercing or slashing
damage from an object coated with the poison is exposed to
its effects.

It used to only last for one minute before if memory serves. In what ways can we make this the optimal thing to do? Coat an entire quiver of arrows? I say yes!

Edit: I believe our original ruling was based on the basic poison from the PHB, which I don't think has also been Errated, meaning that only basic poison has such a limitation possibly due to its... well, simplicity.

[Ninja_Prawn]

It used to only last for one minute before if memory serves. In what ways can we make this the optimal thing to do? Coat an entire quiver of arrows? I say yes!

Yes, one minute. Aside from the quiverful of arrows you mention, which makes poisoned-archery look very attractive (if expensive), it doesn't change much in combat. I guess it saves you an action if you get ambushed/surprised, but that's relatively minor.

Out of combat, I suspect it opens up many more possibilities. Poison traps, for a start. You could poison a surgeon's scalpel an hour before they start surgery. Or maybe a knight's sword the day before the tourney... :smallamused:

[Slipperychicken]

You could coat a secondary weapon in deadly poison, and only take it out when you need those extra dice. A rogue might do this with an extra knife, for example.


A wicked DM might poison the traps in a dungeon, so that even if sprung many years after being set, a trap still holds its deadly sting. To preserve it, maybe it could be mixed or coated with honey or something, since it's well-known that honey can preserve things for thousands of years.

[AvatarVecna]

You could poison a surgeon's scalpel an hour before they start surgery

Any surgeon who isn't washing their scalpel off immediately before the surgery is a surgeon who was likely gonna kill his patient with infection without your assistance anyway. :smallamused:

[Ninja_Prawn]

Any surgeon who isn't washing their scalpel off immediately before the surgery is a surgeon who was likely gonna kill his patient with infection without your assistance anyway. :smallamused:

Hey, that wasn't discovered in the real world until 1847 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis#Efforts_to_reduce_childbed_fever) . Most D&D settings aim for medieval-esque technology, so it stands to reason that a Waterdhavian ship's doctor wouldn't sterilise their tools.

[Regitnui]

Hey, that wasn't discovered in the real world until 1847 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis#Efforts_to_reduce_childbed_fever) . Most D&D settings aim for medieval-esque technology, so it stands to reason that a Waterdhavian ship's doctor wouldn't sterilise their tools.

But the Renaissance-era Eberron House Jorasco would probably have figured it out, even though they haven't discovered the actual existence of microorganisms yet.

[Tanarii]

This is not a new errata. It's been in play for a while.

I detailed the new errata in the other general thread about errata.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?489019-New-errata

(Not to derail any discussion on the errata. Just pointing out its not new with the 6th printing.)

[Kevingway]

This is not a new errata. It's been in play for a while.

I detailed the new errata in the other general thread about errata.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?489019-New-errata

(Not to derail any discussion on the errata. Just pointing out its not new with the 6th printing.)

Noted, but I had been going under the assumption of the one minute thing for a while now. Just now discovered it and didn't see very many discussions of such a helpful change, so I thought I'd bring it to the optimizers' attention!

[Tanarii]

There was no one minute limit. The original wording:
Injury. A creature that takes slashing or piercing damage from a weapon or piece of ammunition coated with injury poison is exposed to its effects.

Before, it was questionable how long it lasted. Now it's clear, it's gone after one use.

[Shining Wrath]

The key thing about this errata is that a 20th level fighter can't coat his greatsword with wyvern venom and then make > 40 attacks with the poison damage bonus.

It is worth noting that the Assassin in the NPC section of the monster manual gets poison on all their attacks, which means somewhere out there is a formula for injury poison that lasts longer than one attack - either that, or the Assassin needs nerfing. As a DM I'd allow someone proficient in alchemy and with a poisoner's kit to research that for lots of time and money.

[MaxWilson]

Noted, but I had been going under the assumption of the one minute thing for a while now. Just now discovered it and didn't see very many discussions of such a helpful change, so I thought I'd bring it to the optimizers' attention!

So had I--so thank you for pointing it out!

I'd read the errata before but it had never registered on me that the one minute limit doesn't apply. Now I can stop giving my NPC drow warriors special training to let them poison crossbow bolts as a bonus action--they are simply pre-poisoned.

And yes, this makes Purple Worm Venom amazing for archers. Fighters FTW!

[DizzyWood]

The key thing about this errata is that a 20th level fighter can't coat his greatsword with wyvern venom and then make > 40 attacks with the poison damage bonus.

It is worth noting that the Assassin in the NPC section of the monster manual gets poison on all their attacks, which means somewhere out there is a formula for injury poison that lasts longer than one attack - either that, or the Assassin needs nerfing. As a DM I'd allow someone proficient in alchemy and with a poisoner's kit to research that for lots of time and money.

Hmmm what about a dagger with built in poison reservoir? It would be expensive as heck but totally worth it to the right character. That's a reward for a nice side quest there.

[Slipperychicken]

Hmmm what about a dagger with built in poison reservoir? It would be expensive as heck but totally worth it to the right character. That's a reward for a nice side quest there.

Back in 3rd edition, you could modify a weapon to automatically spray a dose of poison or other fluid onto itself when you press a button. It didn't even cost much either; just a few hundred gold IIRC. Some of it would get on the wielder's hands, so you generally don't want contact poisons for it. Injury poisons were fine however, as simply getting it on your skin isn't enough to suffer the effect.

[DizzyWood]

Back in 3rd edition, you could modify a weapon to automatically spray a dose of poison or other fluid onto itself when you press a button. It didn't even cost much either; just a few hundred gold IIRC. Some of it would get on the wielder's hands, so you generally don't want contact poisons for it. Injury poisons were fine however, as simply getting it on your skin isn't enough to suffer the effect.

I never really played a Dex character back then so I do not remember those... I thought I was being clever.

Any idea how much that would cost in 5e?

[AvatarVecna]

Hey, that wasn't discovered in the real world until 1847 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis#Efforts_to_reduce_childbed_fever) . Most D&D settings aim for medieval-esque technology, so it stands to reason that a Waterdhavian ship's doctor wouldn't sterilise their tools.

I stand by my statement. Just because it wasn't discovered until 1847 IRL doesn't mean that it wasn't true prior to 1847, and so it is in the D&D world. Its just means that when the magic surgeons jave patients dying like flies, they blame assassins, and never suspect that it's because they used infected equipment.

And thatcs why healing is a matter for clerics, not doctors.

[Slipperychicken]

I never really played a Dex character back then so I do not remember those... I thought I was being clever.

Any idea how much that would cost in 5e?

It's listed in the book Dungeonscape, pages 31 and 33. It's called Oil Chamber and actually costed 1,000gp to add it to a weapon. It wasn't intended for poisons, but people used it for that anyway. Applying the potion was a "swift action", and in this case I think it would translate to an object-interaction, since it's just pressing a button near the grip of a weapon.


I'm not sure if the cost would change much moving to 5e. In 3rd edition, you could buy magic items, and 1000gp was what it costed to get a +1 weapon enchantment. Yes, you could buy magic weapons for list price in those days, so I'm not 100% what it should cost in 5e. Most prices are arbitrary in D&D anyway with no consideration given to economics, especially for mundane goods, so I say just go with whatever.

[Shining Wrath]

Hmmm what about a dagger with built in poison reservoir? It would be expensive as heck but totally worth it to the right character. That's a reward for a nice side quest there.

Sounds like a gnomish device - House Sivis from Eberron type gnomes.

[RulesJD]

What in-game methods exists to harvest/make poison?

Ideally, looking for AL Legal methods that aren't homebrew, which I know is greatly limiting.

[Slipperychicken]

What in-game methods exists to harvest/make poison?

Ideally, looking for AL Legal methods that aren't homebrew, which I know is greatly limiting.

DMG page 258, "Crafting and Harvesting Poison". You can harvest poison from a dead or subdued poisonous creature with 1d6 minutes and a DC 20 check that can be Intelligence(Nature) or Intelligence(Poisoner's Kit). A sensible DM should let you harvest it from a willing creature too. It's anyone's guess what happens to poison harvested from a humanoid polymorphed into a poisonous creature, but you should be able to get it from a familiar.

In the same section, one can also craft poison using the PHB crafting rules for nonmagical items. At the DM's discretion, of course.

[Regitnui]

Sounds like a gnomish device - House Sivis from Eberron type gnomes.

House Signs would probably have it designed so that their daggers can be used to write. Have ink in the reservoir and the needle-tip of a stiletto, and you've a functional quill.


I stand by my statement. Just because it wasn't discovered until 1847 IRL doesn't mean that it wasn't true prior to 1847, and so it is in the D&D world. Its just means that when the magic surgeons jave patients dying like flies, they blame assassins, and never suspect that it's because they used infected equipment.

And thatcs why healing is a matter for clerics, not doctors.

House Jorasco would disagree. Healing is a matter for doctors, not temples. If you can afford a House Jorasco stay, you'll walk out healthy.

[Keltest]

House Jorasco would disagree. Healing is a matter for doctors, not temples. If you can afford a House Jorasco stay, you'll walk out healthy.

House Jorasco can disagree all it wants, but when ive got a sword bisecting my spleen, I'm going to a cleric.

[Regitnui]

House Jorasco can disagree all it wants, but when ive got a sword bisecting my spleen, I'm going to a cleric.

And in Eberron, most clerics and temples will point you to a hospital. What do you expect a priest to do about an injury sustained by someone outside their faith doing something that doesn't benefit the church?

[Arkhios]

House Jorasco can disagree all it wants, but when ive got a sword bisecting my spleen, I'm going to a cleric.

Surviving from a sword stab is not a miraculous achievement. Even us, normal, mundane humans of IRL, can manage that. Put pressure on the wound, pull the blade out, apply some surgery (stiching where needed, e.g. wide-open intestines), wrap some bandages, done! Zero need for healing magic. Sure, you lost some hit points, but if you can walk on your own while having a sword in your belly, you'll be fine and recover over a few days or weeks, depending how realistic the game is about healing over time. :smalltongue:

[JumboWheat01]

House Jorasco can disagree all it wants, but when ive got a sword bisecting my spleen, I'm going to a cleric.


And in Eberron, most clerics and temples will point you to a hospital. What do you expect a priest to do about an injury sustained by someone outside their faith doing something that doesn't benefit the church?

This really makes me want to see a story about a bunch of Faerun characters being stuck in Eberron somehow, and having to cope with the massive differences.

[Segev]

I don't see how this makes poison any more viable. The amount of money you spend for the miniscule, one-off damage bonus just isn't worth it.

[Stan]

I don't see how this makes poison any more viable. The amount of money you spend for the miniscule, one-off damage bonus just isn't worth it.

That's still totally true. But at least you don't have to wait until you're in battle to apply it.

I think the notion of the one minute duration comes from the description of basic poison in equipment, which also unclearly implies that the poison lasts for the whole minute.

[JumboWheat01]

I don't see how this makes poison any more viable. The amount of money you spend for the miniscule, one-off damage bonus just isn't worth it.

Plus there is the whole point about how many things are either resistant or flat out immune to Poison damage. The most common resistance/immunity in the game right now.

[Regitnui]

This really makes me want to see a story about a bunch of Faerun characters being stuck in Eberron somehow, and having to cope with the massive differences.

That could be quite interesting...

[Oramac]

Plus there is the whole point about how many things are either resistant or flat out immune to Poison damage. The most common resistance/immunity in the game right now.

Sorry to go way off topic, but I just read your sig about the barbarian and laughed my ass off. Love it!

[indemnity]

What in-game methods exists to harvest/make poison?

Ideally, looking for AL Legal methods that aren't homebrew, which I know is greatly limiting.

At a minimum, you need a poisoner's kit. No class or background has one in their starting inventory, so you need to purchase.

The only poison allowed in AL is basic poison from the PHB.

It takes 20 days to create one vial of basic poison. AL requires downtime to create items where 1 day = 5gp. Multiple characters can assist, at the same rate of 1 day = 5gp.

Also, while crafting you don't have to pay the 1 gp per day of lifestyle expenses.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Surviving from a sword stab is not a miraculous achievement. Even us, normal, mundane humans of IRL, can manage that. Put pressure on the wound, pull the blade out, apply some surgery (stiching where needed, e.g. wide-open intestines), wrap some bandages, done! Zero need for healing magic.

I respectfully disagree.

Do all of the above and you will likely die in a few days. The inevitably present bacteria brought in on the sword (and much more from the ruptured intestine) in a closed environment (you stitched it closed) happily grow like crazy, releasing toxins into your bloodstream not to mention their own dead organic matter. It is a race between your immune system and the bacteria to see who wins, and the bacteria get a big head start.

That's why it takes an act of a god to heal you instantly, why we pay emergency room surgeons IRL big $, and why people IRL and game survive the moment of stabbing (HP > 0) only to die later from a slow acting poison.

That's why wounds were kept open and people went to a relatively cleaner hospital rather that stay at home. Good hospitals had sunlight and were kept as clean as possible long before the concept of sterile existed.

That's why people considered themselves dead when they were deeply stabbed by a rapier. There was no way to open the wound, infection was inevitable, and thus death. The blood flow could not physically carry the bacteria back out of the body.

Consider the term "mortal wound." Your body is not instantly killed by the wound, but your mortality ends. bacteria is why.

So I give you this unneeded ruling.

The skill check for non-magical healing should always be disadvantaged, with the first roll being modified by the skill of the healer, the second modified by the target's CON mod.

[Arkhios]

Bacteria.

I just knew someone would tackle this bit. Of course there are the bacteria, but that's a matter of how realistic the game is meant to be at any given table.

I'm fairly positive that in Eberron their hospitals have invented antiseptic surgery (as we do; the example in my previous post was tongue-in-cheek simplification). I mean, they have skyscrapers, and electro-magical railroad... Eberron of all settings should have decent non-magical medical services.

[Stan]

bacteria

This also assumes that hit points are purely physical damage, which doesn't hold up well in the overall rules. There's no need to penalize nonmagical healing as (aside from autoheal over time) it's already weak.

Yea, a wound that perforates intestines is likely fatal in a no-magic, pre-surgery era. But that's only a small proportion of possible wounds.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Yea, a wound that perforates intestines is likely fatal in a no-magic, pre-surgery era. But that's only a small proportion of possible wounds.

"Eberron of all settings should have decent non-magical medical services."

Agreed and agreed about Eberron.

Perhaps this is why some considered arrows, bolts, and daggers as "lesser" or non-noble weapons. A sword hack would cause one to bleed out if it was a fatal blow, a relatively quick and painless (good) death compared to a lingering death by infection from a penetrating wound.

Wow, way way off topic now.

[krugaan]

This also assumes that hit points are purely physical damage, which doesn't hold up well in the overall rules. There's no need to penalize nonmagical healing as (aside from autoheal over time) it's already weak.

Yea, a wound that perforates intestines is likely fatal in a no-magic, pre-surgery era. But that's only a small proportion of possible wounds.

rapiers weren't just fatal because of bacterial infection, but because of deep penetration and internal bleeding. A man struck by a rapier could continue to duel even if he had been pierced through the heart, but he would almost certainly be dead, whether it was ten minutes or even a day later, depending on the size of the hole(s) in his heart.

magical healing is one of the most incredible things in DnD, really, especially at the levels at which it is available.

[NewDM]

rapiers weren't just fatal because of bacterial infection, but because of deep penetration and internal bleeding. A man struck by a rapier could continue to duel even if he had been pierced through the heart, but he would almost certainly be dead, whether it was ten minutes or even a day later, depending on the size of the hole(s) in his heart.

magical healing is one of the most incredible things in DnD, really, especially at the levels at which it is available.

Uh no. Once your heart is pierced you die in less than a minute, faster if you are physically active as the blood flow stops and your organs become oxygen starved.

[Segev]

Uh no. Once your heart is pierced you die in less than a minute, faster if you are physically active as the blood flow stops and your organs become oxygen starved.

Bah. See what happens when you have an oxygen addiction?

Necromancy can cure you of that!

[Gnomes2169]

Bah. See what happens when you have an oxygen addiction?

Necromancy can cure you of that!

Can cure you of your dihydrogen monoxide addiction too! And that stuff is a killer man, let me tell you! You're better off without it.

[Regitnui]

Uh no. Once your heart is pierced you die in less than a minute, faster if you are physically active as the blood flow stops and your organs become oxygen starved.

Or the blood just flows out of the heart. Which is why you don't remove the piercing implement until you're with a doctor/Jorasco healer/registered cleric.

Or you can remove it and trust your buddies to get you to a cleric/necromancer as fast as possible...