Stealth caster

[Asus]

I’d like to create a stealth centric caster, and would like some suggestions on how I go about building one in the 5th edition.

From a mechanic perspective, I’d imagine an incorporation of Metamagic could be of some use their subtle spell being used to remove somatic / verbal components. Taking levels in an expertise class, could boost the Stealth roll to a high level as well. I’m not so sure about the next part, but couldn’t you in theory use a Sleight of Hand check for a Somatic spell? From a roleplay perspective, couldn’t you simply attempt to mask any Verbal component with the ambient noise, i.e. people talking in the streets? I’m seeking to avoid direct combat whenever possible, so the idea of taking a skill heavy build appeals to me but isn’t paramount.

I’ve heard that Arcane Trickster is pure garbage, mainly because it doesn’t take advantage of the class Sneak damage, so I was thinking perhaps a blend of Bard & Sorcerer, perhaps 16/4 ?
I imagined I could utilise illusions, to lure my prey into traps etc, with blasting being used as a last resort.

tl;dr Stealth caster 5e

Any ideas?
Assume all content open, and point-buy.

[Oramac]

That's a lot of questions.


From a mechanic perspective, I’d imagine an incorporation of Metamagic could be of some use their subtle spell being used to remove somatic / verbal components.

Definitely do-able.


Taking levels in an expertise class, could boost the Stealth roll to a high level as well.

Rogue gets Expertise at 1st level.


I’m not so sure about the next part, but couldn’t you in theory use a Sleight of Hand check for a Somatic spell? From a roleplay perspective, couldn’t you simply attempt to mask any Verbal component with the ambient noise, i.e. people talking in the streets?

AFAIK, this part would be DMs discretion, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work.

Personally, I'd go Sorc 19 / Rogue 1. Get proficiency and expertise in Stealth and Sleight of Hand.

Also, you could maybe fluff the Actor feat as Ventriloquism to do the verbal components without moving your mouth.

EDIT: to add a build.

27 point buy Half-Elf with the Criminal background.

Buy stats: 8; 15; 13; 10; 10; 15

Half elf gets +2 Cha and put the +1 to two others in Dex/Con.

Criminal gets Stealth, and you can get Sleight of Hand easy enough from being a Half-Elf.

Start Sorc 1 > Rogue 1 > Sorc 18. Grab Expertise in Stealth and Sleight of Hand at Rogue 1 and Actor (assuming you can fluff ventriloquism) at Sorc 4 (character level 5).

The whole thing comes online at character level 5. Not too shabby.

[dejarnjc]

I’ve heard that Arcane Trickster is pure garbage, mainly because it doesn’t take advantage of the class Sneak damage.

Huh, I've always been of the opposite opinion. I think Arcane Trickster is the best rogue archetype. You still benefit from sneak attack on your attacks. Enemies get disadvantage to resist spells if you're hidden. You can ALWAYS have sneak attack available with your mage hand post level 13. And the spell list shouldn't focus on damage but protection (mirror image ftw) and enchantment/distraction (charm/illusion spells).

Compared to Assassins, who are VERY good if they get surprise but meh if not, and Thiefs, who are still quite good but requires creativity IMO, the Arcane Trickster really seems to stand out. Not to mention minor illusion and an invisible mage hand lend all sorts of fun role play opportunity.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I’ve heard that Arcane Trickster is pure garbage

My favourite character of all the ones I've played in 5e was an arcane trickster. It's a hugely fun class to play, in my opinion.

As a DM, I'm not a fan of using Sleight of Hand to mask somatic components. I feel it steps too much on the sorcerer's toes when they have little enough going for them as it is. I'm sure others would feel differently, though, so you could dispense with the sorcerer levels if you think your DM will allow it.

[Icewraith]

Why not just go straight Bard?

[jas61292]

Personally, I advise against allowing someone to use sleight of hand or whatever to disguise somatic or verbal components. This is a specific Sorcerer feature with a specific cost. You wouldn't allow anyone to make a check when attacking from hiding to get a rogue's sneak attack, or allow anyone who is angry make a check to get a barbarian's rage. So you shouldn't allow someone to make a check to get a sorcerer's metamagic. Especially when metamagic is comparatively expensive and limited.

If you want to do something like this, just go Sorcerer. They have the ideal feature for it build right in, with plenty of other helpful options as well.

[dejarnjc]

Personally, I advise against allowing someone to use sleight of hand or whatever to disguise somatic or verbal components. This is a specific Sorcerer feature with a specific cost. You wouldn't allow anyone to make a check when attacking from hiding to get a rogue's sneak attack, or allow anyone who is angry make a check to get a barbarian's rage. So you shouldn't allow someone to make a check to get a sorcerer's metamagic. Especially when metamagic is comparatively expensive and limited.

If you want to do something like this, just go Sorcerer. They have the ideal feature for it build right in, with plenty of other helpful options as well.

I'd just make the DC pretty high and the use fairly situational. Casting a somatic only spell while in a crowded marketplace should be able to be done with little notice IMO. A verbal only spell should be OK to do subtly as long as there's lots of noise. Somatic & verbal should be near but not quite impossible to do without notice.

Also, conceivably, a sorcerer with his focus could cast a fireball spell in the middle of giving a speech while being looked on upon by hundreds and no one would know it was him. Can't really do that with sleight of hand.

[Naanomi]

Bard 3/Sorcerer 17?

[Specter]

Sorcerer (any) 11/Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 9. Magical Ambush is exactly what you want.
Trickery Cleric also gets Pass Without Trace, which is just gold for Stealth.

[Sir cryosin]

I had a magic assassin build Im sad because I only got to play it once but it was a rogue assassin 3, dragon sorcerer 3. The rogues assassin lv3 ability works on anything that has a attack roll so your spell work which is really nice. Then you get cunning action. And when you run out of spells you can cast the cantrips greenflame blade or booming blade and still get sneak attack.

[X3r4ph]

Sorcerer (Favored Soul: Trickery) 20. Who needs expertise if you have Pass without Trace?

[Asus]

Wow, that’s quite a few responses already!

The initial paragraph was simply to set out my ideas on how to achieve the build, a fair amount would come down to the DM of course. I was initially considering some blend of Bard for the expertise, as rogue spell caster seems somewhat suboptimal. INT based 1/3 spellcasting progression, with a poor spell selection?

Anyway, to collect all of the suggestions so far we have a


Bard 3/Sorcerer 17?


Sorcerer (any) 11/Rogue (Arcane Trickster) 9. Magical Ambush is exactly what you want.
Trickery Cleric also gets Pass Without Trace, which is just gold for Stealth.


Why not just go straight Bard?


…Half-Elf with the Criminal background.

Buy stats: 8; 15; 13; 10; 10; 15
8; 16; 14; 10; 10; 17
Half elf gets +2 Cha and put the +1 to two others in Dex/Con.


…Rogue assassin 3, dragon sorcerer 3. The rogues assassin lv3 ability works on anything that has a attack roll so your spell work which is really nice. Then you get cunning action. And when you run out of spells you can cast the cantrips greenflame blade or booming blade and still get sneak attack.

As you can see, there is a fair amount of suggestions of how you’d go about the build. I personally thought that a bard’s spell casting and expertise would be an ideal combination with the Sorc Meta-magic. But some people think otherwise, so I’m interested to see what other input you’d have, perhaps a stat array for the arcane trickster?



Huh, I've always been of the opposite opinion. I think Arcane Trickster is the best rogue archetype. You still benefit from sneak attack on your attacks. Enemies get disadvantage to resist spells if you're hidden. You can ALWAYS have sneak attack available with your mage hand post level 13. And the spell list shouldn't focus on damage but protection (mirror image ftw) and enchantment/distraction (charm/illusion spells).

Compared to Assassins, who are VERY good if they get surprise but meh if not, and Thiefs, who are still quite good but requires creativity IMO, the Arcane Trickster really seems to stand out. Not to mention minor illusion and an invisible mage hand lend all sorts of fun role play opportunity.

Magical ambush: Inflict saving throw disadvantage against spell. But at quite the cost, you already have lower level spell slots, INT based casing generally means your DC will be quite low?
Spell thief: comparatively weak ability for a high level class.
You don’t actually get the sneak attack bonus to damage as I’m mistaken?


My favourite character of all the ones I've played in 5e was an arcane trickster. It's a hugely fun class to play, in my opinion.

As a DM, I'm not a fan of using Sleight of Hand to mask somatic components. I feel it steps too much on the sorcerer's toes when they have little enough going for them as it is. I'm sure others would feel differently, though, so you could dispense with the sorcerer levels if you think your DM will allow it.


Personally, I advise against allowing someone to use sleight of hand or whatever to disguise somatic or verbal components. This is a specific Sorcerer feature with a specific cost. You wouldn't allow anyone to make a check when attacking from hiding to get a rogue's sneak attack, or allow anyone who is angry make a check to get a barbarian's rage. So you shouldn't allow someone to make a check to get a sorcerer's metamagic. Especially when metamagic is comparatively expensive and limited.

If you want to do something like this, just go Sorcerer. They have the ideal feature for it build right in, with plenty of other helpful options as well.


I'd just make the DC pretty high and the use fairly situational. Casting a somatic only spell while in a crowded marketplace should be able to be done with little notice IMO. A verbal only spell should be OK to do subtly as long as there's lots of noise. Somatic & verbal should be near but not quite impossible to do without notice.

Also, conceivably, a sorcerer with his focus could cast a fireball spell in the middle of giving a speech while being looked on upon by hundreds and no one would know it was him. Can't really do that with sleight of hand.

This is more in line with what I’m suggesting, I’m by no ways suggesting that you simply utilise sleight of hand, all of the time, I’m instead suggesting that you use it on the rare occasion that you can’t afford to use Subtle Spell, in an RP scenario that would allow it, I’d imagine the GM would boost the DC to a fair level, and the application would by its very nature be highly situational; Snape manages to cast a spell during a Quiditch match whilst being unnoticed by the vast majority? In short a situation in which you aren’t actively using perception. During a speech, are you really looking around the crowd to see a somatic component of a spell, that could presumably be performed below, waist level, abstracted by other people? Just saying that there are situation in which I can see an application be valid.


"Sleight of Hand. Whenever you attempt an act of legedemain or manual trickery...concealing an object on person"PHB
Couldn’t you also use your sleight of hand to conceal your focus on your person?

[uraniumrooster]

If you want to be more of a pure-caster (not a Sneak attacker w/ spells), Shadow Sorcerer (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/02_UA_Underdark_Characters.pdf) might be something to look at. 1 Sorcery point to cast Darkness, and you can see through it.

Sorc 3-4/Lore Bard X would work pretty well. I'd start out in Sorcerer to get the Con Save proficiency, so you wouldn't get Expertise until level 4 at the soonest - and I'd probably take all the Sorcerer levels in the front to get access to Metamagic sooner, so that'd delay Expertise until level 6-7. It also slows down access to Greater Invis, which is a stealth caster's dream. Still, with Darkness for 1 SP, and regular Stealth proficiency from your race or background, you still have plenty of ways to stay unseen.

If you don't mind layering in a melee class, a Shadow Sorcerer/Shadow Monk could have some pretty fun, unique tricks up their sleeve, and be very thematic.

[Asus]

So the spell Pass Without Trace has come up a few times, adds a +10 to Dex checks for an hour (Con), as a druid / ranger skill. The Earth Genasi start with this spell which would mean it could be incorporated into a rogue build if needed. Cleric can acquire the spell through the trickster domain, and consequently the “Favored Soul” Sorcerer. Bard could potentially steal the spell through their Magical secrets? They also have the option of utilising expertise & peerless skill to gain a massive boost to stealth. Unless I’m mistaken the Sorcerer does not benefit from the Cleric’s Blessing of the Trickster, nor would they gain the Guidance cantrip? In theory wouldn’t this also allow a warlock dip to be somewhat effective? As you could dip 3 levels, acquire pact of tome / Book of Ancient Secrets, then self-cast guidance through the familiar and have it ‘help’. Perhaps it isn’t the best use of the levels, but in theory it could still be done?

You can't hide from a creature that can see you, but you can use Full Cover to get out of sight (p. 196) Thus there would be all kind of situations in which you could just stealth yourself, casting next to a corner, turning it and becoming stealth due to the nature of breaking line of sight. Small characters could hide behind mid-sized, Wood elf can use lightly obscured natural pheneomena and Skulker (p 183) just allows any lightly obscuring environment at all. Couldn’t you essentially hide by taking no action at all, if you are already positioned in environment that provides no natural source what so ever, as technically they can’t see you.


If you want to be more of a pure-caster (not a Sneak attacker w/ spells), LINK might be something to look at. 1 Sorcery point to cast Darkness, and you can see through it.

Sorc 3-4/Lore Bard X would work pretty well. I'd start out in Sorcerer to get the Con Save proficiency, so you wouldn't get Expertise until level 4 at the soonest - and I'd probably take all the Sorcerer levels in the front to get access to Metamagic sooner, so that'd delay Expertise until level 6-7. It also slows down access to Greater Invis, which is a stealth caster's dream. Still, with Darkness for 1 SP, and regular Stealth proficiency from your race or background, you still have plenty of ways to stay unseen.

If you don't mind layering in a melee class, a Shadow Sorcerer/Shadow Monk could have some pretty fun, unique tricks up their sleeve, and be very thematic.Darkness sounds like an interesting spell, however I am left wondering doesn’t this somewhat forfeit your stealth? Situationally at least? If you cast darkness it becomes quite apparent that something is happening—providing the rest of the area isn’t covered by darkness—it just becomes a case of being unable to see it?

On another question all together, is the CON benefit from Sorc better than the DEX benefit that comes from Bard?

[dejarnjc]

Magical ambush: Inflict saving throw disadvantage against spell. But at quite the cost, you already have lower level spell slots, INT based casing generally means your DC will be quite low?
Spell thief: comparatively weak ability for a high level class.
You don’t actually get the sneak attack bonus to damage as I’m mistaken?


Arcane casters can easily have 18/18 int/dex by level 8 and by level 12 they can have 20/20 int/dex since they're not feat dependent. That not only ensures a solid DC but the disadvantage aspect of magical ambush equates to a -5 average roll for the enemy. Probably best way in the game to make save or suck spells hit when you need em.

Spell thief sucks but who even plays past level 15 anyway?

Arcane Tricksters get sneak attack bonus to ranged attacks and melee finesse weapon attacks. Sneak attack also procs off of booming blade and green flame blade. A generous DM may let you use sneak attack with another ranged attack cantrip but the only way to balance that would be to not have the cantrip base damage scale with level.


Anyway, it seems you're not really interested in an arcane trickster, which is perfectly fine, I just wanted to defend them because I think they rock :)

[Petrocorus]

27 point buy Half-Elf with the Criminal background.

Criminal gets Stealth, and you can get Sleight of Hand easy enough from being a Half-Elf.


Urchin get Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Thief's tools, Disguise Kit.
This is the background you want.



On another question all together, is the CON benefit from Sorc better than the DEX benefit that comes from Bard?
The Con Save is important for caster because your concentration is keyed on it.

[Sir cryosin]

So the spell Pass Without Trace has come up a few times, adds a +10 to Dex checks for an hour (Con), as a druid / ranger skill. The Earth Genasi start with this spell which would mean it could be incorporated into a rogue build if needed. Cleric can acquire the spell through the trickster domain, and consequently the “Favored Soul” Sorcerer. Bard could potentially steal the spell through their Magical secrets? They also have the option of utilising expertise & peerless skill to gain a massive boost to stealth. Unless I’m mistaken the Sorcerer does not benefit from the Cleric’s Blessing of the Trickster, nor would they gain the Guidance cantrip? In theory wouldn’t this also allow a warlock dip to be somewhat effective? As you could dip 3 levels, acquire pact of tome / Book of Ancient Secrets, then self-cast guidance through the familiar and have it ‘help’. Perhaps it isn’t the best use of the levels, but in theory it could still be done?

You can't hide from a creature that can see you, but you can use Full Cover to get out of sight (p. 196) Thus there would be all kind of situations in which you could just stealth yourself, casting next to a corner, turning it and becoming stealth due to the nature of breaking line of sight. Small characters could hide behind mid-sized, Wood elf can use lightly obscured natural pheneomena and Skulker (p 183) just allows any lightly obscuring environment at all. Couldn’t you essentially hide by taking no action at all, if you are already positioned in environment that provides no natural source what so ever, as technically they can’t see you.

Darkness sounds like an interesting spell, however I am left wondering doesn’t this somewhat forfeit your stealth? Situationally at least? If you cast darkness it becomes quite apparent that something is happening—providing the rest of the area isn’t covered by darkness—it just becomes a case of being unable to see it?

On another question all together, is the CON benefit from Sorc better than the DEX benefit that comes from Bard?


I'm sorry but I got to say it " if I can't see you then logic dictate that you can't see me." But on a serious note for a spell-caster con proficiency is better than dex proficiency because con proficiency will help you on your concentration spells.

[Ninja_Prawn]

becoming stealth

I am become stealth, destroyer of worlds!


if you are already positioned in environment that provides no natural source what so ever, as technically they can’t see you.

Do you mean "provides no light source"?

In which case, yes, a creature that doesn't have darkvision or similar can't see you, and you'd have advantages on attack rolls if you can somehow see them. That does not, however, mean that you're hidden. They might be able to hear or smell you, or know that you're there based on other factors (they saw you enter the darkness and didn't hear you leave; they know you're there because you're shooting them with arrows). As far as I'm concerned, you have to take the Hide action to become hidden.

[ImSAMazing]

OP, may I ask why you put your letters in such a small size? It makes reading it a bit harder than it should.

[Asus]

I don't understand what you mean by "if I can't see you then logic dictate that you can't see me."



I am become stealth, destroyer of worlds!



Do you mean "provides no light source"?

In which case, yes, a creature that doesn't have darkvision or similar can't see you, and you'd have advantages on attack rolls if you can somehow see them. That does not, however, mean that you're hidden. They might be able to hear or smell you, or know that you're there based on other factors (they saw you enter the darkness and didn't hear you leave; they know you're there because you're shooting them with arrows). As far as I'm concerned, you have to take the Hide action to become hidden.

Yes, I meant light source.
The skulker feat allows you to attempt to hide in dim light. So if you were in total darkness, even a creature with darkvision wouldn’t be able to see you, as they would technically see in the darkness as if it was dim light. Or at least that is my understanding of it.

Also as a note, I haven't changed the size of the text in my prior posts only the font. I can increase the size for better readability if that helps you.

[Oramac]

Urchin get Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Thief's tools, Disguise Kit.
This is the background you want.

Indeed it does. I overlooked that.


The Con Save is important for caster because your concentration is keyed on it.

Definitely start Sorc for con save proficiency. It helps a ton.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I don't understand what you mean by "if I can't see you then logic dictate that you can't see me."

I wasn't the one who said it, but I assume Croysin was referring to the classic joke wherein animals or young children believe that being blind is the same as being invisible. Example:

https://rawmultimedia.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/cute-cat-kitty-photo.jpg


Yes, I meant light source.
The skulker feat allows you to attempt to hide in dim light. So if you were in total darkness, even a creature with darkvision wouldn’t be able to see you, as they would technically see in the darkness as if it was dim light. Or at least that is my understanding of it.

Yes, yes, a skulker can hide in dim light. Personally, I consider the lighting condition in isolation, regardless of whatever special senses anyone may have, so I wouldn't prevent a skulker hiding in dim light in the presence of an elf (I would instead give the elf advantage to perceive them, since the area seems well-lit to them).

What I was trying to make clear is that 'hiding' is something you actively do. It doesn't just happen automatically. Maybe you knew that already, but your phrasing implied to me that you might not.


Also as a note, I haven't changed the size of the text in my prior posts only the font. I can increase the size for better readability if that helps you.


In my view, Garamond and TNR need to be size 3 to be readable on this forum.

[Asus]

Just to clarify, I understand the expression. I just don’t see how it would apply to this situation, when a rogue is hidden/stealth they aren't denied their sight. Right?
For example, a skulker could stand in dim light, this wouldn’t deny them vision of the NPC.

[Sir cryosin]

I wasn't the one who said it, but I assume Croysin was referring to the classic joke wherein animals or young children believe that being blind is the same as being invisible. Example:

https://rawmultimedia.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/cute-cat-kitty-photo.jpg



Yes, yes, a skulker can hide in dim light. Personally, I consider the lighting condition in isolation, regardless of whatever special senses anyone may have, so I wouldn't prevent a skulker hiding in dim light in the presence of an elf (I would instead give the elf advantage to perceive them, since the area seems well-lit to them).

What I was trying to make clear is that 'hiding' is something you actively do. It doesn't just happen automatically. Maybe you knew that already, but your phrasing implied to me that you might not.



In my view, Garamond and TNR need to be size 3 to be readable on this forum.

Thank you. I baby sit a lot so it kid logic lol. I'm just glade someone got it

[Ninja_Prawn]

I just don’t see how it would apply to this situation


Oh, neither do I. Sir Croysin's sense of humour often confuses me, but you get used to it. :smalltongue:

[SharkForce]

Arcane casters can easily have 18/18 int/dex by level 8 and by level 12 they can have 20/20 int/dex since they're not feat dependent. That not only ensures a solid DC but the disadvantage aspect of magical ambush equates to a -5 average roll for the enemy. Probably best way in the game to make save or suck spells hit when you need em.

Spell thief sucks but who even plays past level 15 anyway?

Arcane Tricksters get sneak attack bonus to ranged attacks and melee finesse weapon attacks. Sneak attack also procs off of booming blade and green flame blade. A generous DM may let you use sneak attack with another ranged attack cantrip but the only way to balance that would be to not have the cantrip base damage scale with level.


Anyway, it seems you're not really interested in an arcane trickster, which is perfectly fine, I just wanted to defend them because I think they rock :)

even spell thief is fine in the right situation. at level 15, the wizard probably doesn't want to cast haste on you (not because it's a bad spell, but simply because concentration is for things like wall of force that can drastically change the course of a fight), and it would take up your precious single level 3 spell known outside of enchantment and illusion to choose it, but haste is amazing on a rogue.

so, first thing in the morning, ask the wizard to sacrifice a level 3 spell slot to cast haste on you, and learn it for the day. if tomorrow you need fly, learn that instead. if the party could use more healing, ask for a cure spell from the cleric. basically, any time there's a low level spell that would be useful for someone to know, but it isn't really worth the concentration of a primary spellcaster, you can become able to cast it for a day, ranging from pass without trace to haste to entangle to spirit guardians to whatever else you could possibly need. it even helps for scouting, if you have a spell you'll need to use while separated from the rest of the party.

(now, whether that's getting you more than taking levels in some other class i can't say, but while the ability is perhaps not as exciting as it could be, it isn't a bad ability and has plenty of uses. though it does lose some value if the DM loosens up the restrictions on spell schools for arcane tricksters and eldritch knights).

[Temperjoke]

"Hey guys, did any of you notice the large cloud of darkness sitting in the middle of the courtyard in bright sunlight?"

"No, we failed our perception checks."

"I told you guys not to dump wisdom."


Sorry, couldn't resist the joke.

Anyways, you should also take into account different situations and magical items, assuming your DM cooperates. Fly can do wonders for being stealthy, but you can't maintain that concentration and maintain Invisibility at the same time, but a ring can help that.

A Chain Warlock dip isn't a terrible idea, some invocations, a pet that can be invisible or shapeshift able to hit enemies with your touch spells can be very useful for someone trying to be stealthy.

[Malifice]

Its important to note that being invisible doesnt make you 'hidden' in and of itself. It just fulfils two of the preconditions that allow the hide action (it stops your foes from seeing you clearly enabling you to attempt to hide, and it provides you total obscurement within which to hide).

So for any stealth build 2 levels of Rogue is vital; both for expertise in stealth and for cunning action (the latter allows you to cast invisiblity and then use your bonus action in the same round to perform the Hide action).

There are other ways - a Sorcerer can spam a quickened Invisibility as a bonus action and then perform the Hide action straight away as an action. This method is more resource intensive however.

A 2 level Rogue dip gives you all the tools you need. Cast invisiblity, then cunning action hide (using your expertise in stealth to become virtually undetectable). Bonus points if you can track down some elven boots which grant advantage to your stealth check to hide for 'sound only' stealth checks - which this is.

A hidden and invisible PC (with expertise in stealth) can be a nightmare. He cant be targeted with most spells (or attacks of opportunity) and imposes disadvantage on attack rolls simply on account of being invisible, but being hidden as well forces his enemies to first guess his location to even have a chance of hitting him.

[Oramac]

A hidden and invisible PC (with expertise in stealth) can be a nightmare. He cant be targeted with most spells (or attacks of opportunity) and imposes disadvantage on attack rolls simply on account of being invisible, but being hidden as well forces his enemies to first guess his location to even have a chance of hitting him.

It's worth noting that this is especially nasty when you get access to Greater Invisibility. As a Rogue/Sorcerer, you can Twin it on yourself and someone else, and it doesn't end when you attack or cast a spell.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Greater Invisibility. As a Rogue/Sorcerer, you can Twin

Notably, regular Invisibility can be cast on multiple targets by using higher level slots, but Greater Invisibility can't. Twin Spell is the only way to do this.

[Sir cryosin]

Oh, neither do I. Sir Croysin's sense of humour often confuses me, but you get used to it. :smalltongue:

I know I been posting quite regularly. And if I'm being a nuisance just let me know I'll stop. Sorry.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I know I been posting quite regularly. And if I'm being a nuisance just let me know I'll stop. Sorry.

For the record: I mean no offence and I wouldn't say you're a nuisance. We just have different senses of humour, is all.

[Sir cryosin]

For the record: I mean no offence and I wouldn't say you're a nuisance. We just have different senses of humour, is all.

No no no no you didn't offend me I was just afraid that I was being a nuisance to people with my frequent comments.

[Malifice]

It's worth noting that this is especially nasty when you get access to Greater Invisibility. As a Rogue/Sorcerer, you can Twin it on yourself and someone else, and it doesn't end when you attack or cast a spell.

Yeah it would end on an attack wouldnt it?

[Oramac]

Yeah it would end on an attack wouldnt it?

You're thinking on regular Invisibility which does end when you attack or cast a spell.

Greater Invisibility does not end on attack/spell casts.

[Malifice]

You're thinking on regular Invisibility which does end when you attack or cast a spell.

Greater Invisibility does not end on attack/spell casts.

Doh! Yep. Heh

[Eriniou]

Currently, I am playing a wizard bladesinger in my 5e group. I got the short straw on magic items until we found a cloak of elven kind, and being an elf, I got it for the laugh factor. Next session, I realized that I could be a great stealth mage by doing the following.

1. Casting Greater Invisibility and using a rapier as a weapon.
2. Casting Dispell on caster type enemies.
3. Using reactions to cast Counterspell.
4. Using Misty Step to draw attention to the place you were at, and strike from a new angle.
5. Set simple traps/Arcane Locking doors

Since then, I have added Major Illusion, Darkness, and Steel Wind Strike to my repertoire, picked up Stealth through training in game, and I have been making a wonderful off-rogue for my party. I let the beefy ones lay siege to castles, start a major fight, what have you, and slip in behind the lines to harrier the casters while darting around the combat area like a poor man's Nightcrawler. With a sword! For cheese factor, I am hoping to get a Handy Haversack or Bag of Holding, and using it to concentrate for me, opening up Shadow Blade while doing this as an option.....

[JackPhoenix]

Currently, you're necromancing 2 years old thread.

[TheUser]

oops thread necromancy!

[Exocist]

Currently, I am playing a wizard bladesinger in my 5e group. I got the short straw on magic items until we found a cloak of elven kind, and being an elf, I got it for the laugh factor. Next session, I realized that I could be a great stealth mage by doing the following.

1. Casting Greater Invisibility and using a rapier as a weapon.
2. Casting Dispell on caster type enemies.
3. Using reactions to cast Counterspell.
4. Using Misty Step to draw attention to the place you were at, and strike from a new angle.
5. Set simple traps/Arcane Locking doors

Since then, I have added Major Illusion, Darkness, and Steel Wind Strike to my repertoire, picked up Stealth through training in game, and I have been making a wonderful off-rogue for my party. I let the beefy ones lay siege to castles, start a major fight, what have you, and slip in behind the lines to harrier the casters while darting around the combat area like a poor man's Nightcrawler. With a sword! For cheese factor, I am hoping to get a Handy Haversack or Bag of Holding, and using it to concentrate for me, opening up Shadow Blade while doing this as an option.....

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