Leomund's tiny fort

[Carlobrand]

Leomund's tiny hut - I've heard arguments that one cannot shoot arrows (or poke spears) out from inside it. On the other hand, the spell as written is pretty clear that objects inside when it's cast can exit the hut, and there's nothing that limits their speed when they're exiting. I don't see anything in RAW that prohibits it, which means such a limitation would be a house rule.

There is an understandable concern about a spell that creates a pillbox you can shoot from while the enemy can't hit back. However, it takes a minute to cast so this is not something that happens in the midst of battle, and it's immobile - the enemy can respond by simply moving out of range or hunkering behind cover. And, more importantly, it's the only way to discourage an enemy who spots a hut from simply camping outside and waiting a few hours for the tender vittles inside to emerge.

Of course, a clever enemy outside who retrieves the arrow(s) shot from inside would be able to shoot them back inside - it'd be a blind shot, but that could get entertaining.

[HarrisonF]

Per sage advice, you can't shoot out:

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/22/moving-through-leomunds-tiny-hut/

I tend to side with sage on this one since it is a ritual and still really good even with the nerf.

With that said, it is still a really nice defensive fort. Archer moves out, takes a shoot or four and then moves back in. It works pretty well done bless there are a huge amount of enemies to threaten all surrounding spaces.

[TheFlyingCleric]

And, more importantly, it's the only way to discourage an enemy who spots a hut from simply camping outside and waiting a few hours for the tender vittles inside to emerge.

Elven Wizards. Long rests in just 4 hours, can then recast the hut as a ritual.
But who runs out of food first? Not whoever has the fifth level cleric in their hut as well!

[Giant2005]

Elven Wizards. Long rests in just 4 hours, can then recast the hut as a ritual.
But who runs out of food first? Not whoever has the fifth level cleric in their hut as well!

Elves still take 8 hours to complete a long rest. Not that it matters anyway considering it is a ritual spell - you don't need to be able to replenish your class resources to recast it.

[Socratov]

Leomund's tiny hut - I've heard arguments that one cannot shoot arrows (or poke spears) out from inside it. On the other hand, the spell as written is pretty clear that objects inside when it's cast can exit the hut, and there's nothing that limits their speed when they're exiting. I don't see anything in RAW that prohibits it, which means such a limitation would be a house rule.

There is an understandable concern about a spell that creates a pillbox you can shoot from while the enemy can't hit back. However, it takes a minute to cast so this is not something that happens in the midst of battle, and it's immobile - the enemy can respond by simply moving out of range or hunkering behind cover. And, more importantly, it's the only way to discourage an enemy who spots a hut from simply camping outside and waiting a few hours for the tender vittles inside to emerge.

Of course, a clever enemy outside who retrieves the arrow(s) shot from inside would be able to shoot them back inside - it'd be a blind shot, but that could get entertaining.

Consider this: you know an amry of goblins and orcs is coming and you need to defend the town. Now you give everyone in the town a shortbow and arrows. Create any number of Leomunds Glorious Pillboxes and put the people in there. Once the army arrives, keep the town safe, let people in with ammo batches which can be made in town because the town is safe and you have a perimiter.

[Giant2005]

Consider this: you know an amry of goblins and orcs is coming and you need to defend the town. Now you give everyone in the town a shortbow and arrows. Create any number of Leomunds Glorious Pillboxes and put the people in there. Once the army arrives, keep the town safe, let people in with ammo batches which can be made in town because the town is safe and you have a perimiter.

You would need a lot of wizards - each wizard is only capable of sustaining a single pillbox.

[Aharon]

You would need a lot of wizards - each wizard is only capable of sustaining a single pillbox.

Why? The spell doesn't require concentration, as far as I can see.

[Socratov]

You would need a lot of wizards - each wizard is only capable of sustaining a single pillbox.

4 casters who know the spell is enough. You get an extended perimiter in each of the cardinal directions. Might even be able to get there with 3, dpeeding on the size of the town. Oh, and tomelocks and Bards can cast it as well. So a 4 man party of melee, bard, tomelock and wizard can keep up 3 and cover the town. Then there is the fact of casting from scrolls, and the person casting the spell can shoot a bow as well. with 320 taken for the short bow range, your old perimeter was 320' from the town edge, so let's make that 400 considering that the town might be 160' in diameter (80'radius). the fact that you want a circle from your pillboxes and range with a 40' overlap for security reasons (can't have the enemy sneak past your range edge) this makes your radii from your pillboxes 300'. 3 pillboxes make a circle with 2*3*300 circumference (1800'), which makes for a circle with diameter 574' (ish), making a radius of 289' where the pillboxes will be placed for a perimeter (again at 300' for circle smoothing) of 289+300=589'

Sure, the pillboxes are shooting at disadvantage, but sa long as you have enough people willing to shoot the shortbows any army of gobbo's will get decimated. Oh, on top of that you are safe from spells, harm and the goggo's entering the sphere.

Used: 3 scrolls of tiny hut/3 bards/wizards/tomelocks, 3 people able to ride a horse to dispence arrows and an assortment of people able to use a short bow. if the people you use are proficient in longbows the effect becomes even stronger. :smallamused:

[Giant2005]

Why? The spell doesn't require concentration, as far as I can see.

Because if the caster leaves the pillbox, the pillbox disappears. So he has to stay there while the archers do their thing - he can't wander off to create another without the first disappearing on him.

[Giant2005]

Sure, the pillboxes are shooting at disadvantage, but sa long as you have enough people willing to shoot the shortbows any army of gobbo's will get decimated. Oh, on top of that you are safe from spells, harm and the goggo's entering the sphere.

It doesn't matter how many people are willing - each pillbox can only contain a total of 10 people. An army of goblins isn't going to enjoy running past the 10 archers protecting one side from their impenetrable pillbox, but it isn't going to stop them.

[Socratov]

It doesn't matter how many people are willing - each pillbox can only contain a total of 10 people. An army of goblins isn't going to enjoy running past the 10 archers protecting one side from their impenetrable pillbox, but it isn't going to stop them.

if the army is lvl 1 goblins, they have enough hp to survive about a hit. Let's assume 5 hits out of every 10 because disadvantage. Goblins move at most 60' a round, so 5 rounds to reach the pillbox. that's 3 rounds of 5 kills per round, then they are within normal range, so maybe 7 kills out of 10? Another 3 rounds means 21 kills for a total of 36 kills per pillbox. In 6 rounds. without any chance of harm. And after that they stay in range all the way to the town where the kills keep om happening. this is actually a viable strategy. Every bard/wizard/warlock you can get your hands on makes for an extra pillbox.

[MaxWilson]

It doesn't matter how many people are willing - each pillbox can only contain a total of 10 people. An army of goblins isn't going to enjoy running past the 10 archers protecting one side from their impenetrable pillbox, but it isn't going to stop them.

That reminds me of General Buford's men tangling up Hills' corps in Gettysburg. If the goblins hold their discipline and don't engage, they'll be fine; but if they "get their dander up", the pillbox could snarl up their whole attack.

Good movie.

[Sigreid]

Consider this. The way it is written you can launch misses out, but your opponents can launch those same misses back in.

[MaxWilson]

Consider this. The way it is written you can launch misses out, but your opponents can launch those same misses back in.

Also, hits.

[Kane0]

As an aside, Leomund's Instant Pillbox sounds like an awesome spell. Make it a 7th level concentration spell or so that when upcast can also be camoflaged/invisible.

[TheFlyingCleric]

Elves still take 8 hours to complete a long rest. Not that it matters anyway considering it is a ritual spell - you don't need to be able to replenish your class resources to recast it.

Elves can trance for 4 hours instead of sleeping for 8 hours. This matters because the spell only has a duration of 8 hours, and it takes at least a minute to recast it...


However, there is an inherent problem with fortresses. Military Engineers; soldiers trained to deal with this sort of thing. Your impenetrable hut of force is no good when some clever commander orders his men to cover it with dirt. And rocks. They still can't attack you, neither can you attack out. Or get out. Or get food (unless you have a 5th level cleric).


I could see a use for it in a castle siege type situation though. Put a sphere of force over a siege engine, and it can't be hit by other siege engines. Even Engineers will be hard pressed to get several tons of dirt up onto the engines tower.

[Giant2005]

if the army is lvl 1 goblins, they have enough hp to survive about a hit. Let's assume 5 hits out of every 10 because disadvantage. Goblins move at most 60' a round, so 5 rounds to reach the pillbox. that's 3 rounds of 5 kills per round, then they are within normal range, so maybe 7 kills out of 10? Another 3 rounds means 21 kills for a total of 36 kills per pillbox. In 6 rounds. without any chance of harm. And after that they stay in range all the way to the town where the kills keep om happening. this is actually a viable strategy. Every bard/wizard/warlock you can get your hands on makes for an extra pillbox.

The Pillbox itself isn't really doing much in that case - if there are so few goblins they would be crazy to attack even if the Archers were just standing there at max range, ready to strike.


Elves can trance for 4 hours instead of sleeping for 8 hours. This matters because the spell only has a duration of 8 hours, and it takes at least a minute to recast it...

Non-Elves only need to sleep for 6 hours.

[Sigreid]

As an aside, Leomund's Instant Pillbox sounds like an awesome spell. Make it a 7th level concentration spell or so that when upcast can also be camoflaged/invisible.

That spell used to be called Leomund's Secure Shelter. I liked it a lot.

[Socratov]

The Pillbox itself isn't really doing much in that case - if there are so few goblins they would be crazy to attack even if the Archers were just standing there at max range, ready to strike.


That makes it a perimeter increase. While the goblins know they can storm the town for plunder, it is really worth losing so many over it? the fact that you have an increased range for the town to defend itself makes for a better defense of the town. Those 36 goblins that died getting to the town walls are 36 goblins that can't rush the stockade or attempt to kill townspeople.

[TheFlyingCleric]

Non-Elves only need to sleep for 6 hours.

Went and reread the rules on short rest; the other two hours must be 'light activity'; and the context means that can't include spellcasting
But it also allows you to interrupt the rest with up to 1 hour of strenuous activity, including spellcasting, so yeah you're right.

Non-elven caster can sleep for 3 hours, get up, ritual cast the hut again, spend an hour or two going back to sleep, sleep for another 3 hours, and then get up rested again

[Carlobrand]

I take "Sage Advice" to be advisory, therefore worth considering but not in the same class as an official errata page or something similar. So far I'm not hearing anything that suggests RAW prevents it.

The use of the spell in siegecraft is interesting, but I don't see it as earthshaking. LTH is a 3rd level spell. Ergo, you have tied down your 5th or higher level mage - you know, the guy with the fireball and the flaming sphere - to maintain a pillbox for 9 combatants and/or a small siege engine. That still might be tactically preferable if you need a pillbox and didn't have time to construct a regular one (as for example when trying to hastily close a sudden breach in your wall). However, if you have multiple 5th level mages and all he has to answer with is goblins, then you already have a commanding edge, LTH or no, unless he's got a whole lotta goblins and they don't mind dying in large numbers - and as others have pointed out, a LTH improvised pillbox is vulnerable to some obvious counters. Something as simple as a fog cloud or darkness cast in front of it would prevent the occupants from spotting and targeting approachers.

Me, if I were facing one in siege conditions, I'd build mantlets and move the troops forward behind those. I consider a for-real pillbox to be the greater threat, because a 5th level mage inside one of those is free to hit me with lightning bolts and stinking clouds rather than being tied up maintaining a magical shell.

[Tanarii]

Consider this: you know an amry of goblins and orcs is coming and you need to defend the town. Now you give everyone in the town a shortbow and arrows. Create any number of Leomunds Glorious Pillboxes and put the people in there. Once the army arrives, keep the town safe, let people in with ammo batches which can be made in town because the town is safe and you have a perimiter.

Commoner with shortbow +0 to hit for 1d6 damage. Goblin AC 15, 7 hit points, spd 30ft. 2 hits required for a kill.

At range 320ft to 81ft: 9% chance of hit. 10 commoners can hit once per round. Time to cover distance: 3 rounds. Kills per pillbox: 1.5

At range 80 to 0ft: 30% chance to hit. 10 commoners can hit 3 times per round. Time to cover distance: just over one round, call it three as they keep going past and reach 80ft the other direction. Kills per pillbox: 4.5 kills.

Thats a total of six kills per pillbox until the Goblins are back out of close range. And assuming they don't have any way to take cover on the approach.

[TheFlyingCleric]

I take "Sage Advice" to be advisory, therefore worth considering but not in the same class as an official errata page or something similar. So far I'm not hearing anything that suggests RAW prevents it.

The use of the spell in siegecraft is interesting, but I don't see it as earthshaking. LTH is a 3rd level spell. Ergo, you have tied down your 5th or higher level mage - you know, the guy with the fireball and the flaming sphere - to maintain a pillbox for 9 combatants and/or a small siege engine. That still might be tactically preferable if you need a pillbox and didn't have time to construct a regular one (as for example when trying to hastily close a sudden breach in your wall). However, if you have multiple 5th level mages and all he has to answer with is goblins, then you already have a commanding edge, LTH or no, unless he's got a whole lotta goblins and they don't mind dying in large numbers - and as others have pointed out, a LTH improvised pillbox is vulnerable to some obvious counters. Something as simple as a fog cloud or darkness cast in front of it would prevent the occupants from spotting and targeting approachers.

Me, if I were facing one in siege conditions, I'd build mantlets and move the troops forward behind those. I consider a for-real pillbox to be the greater threat, because a 5th level mage inside one of those is free to hit me with lightning bolts and stinking clouds rather than being tied up maintaining a magical shell.

It's definitely not earthshaking, but it is very good for a 3rd level ritual that doesn't require concentration.

Furthermore, the wizard is not completely tied down while within the sphere. They can pick up a light crossbow themselves (they probably have a better DEX modifier than commoners at the very least, and they can add their proficiency bonus), and they can still cast spells targeting something inside the sphere. OR your familiar can deliver touch spells up to 100 feet

This means they can't fireball enemies outside, but they can still cast a buff on an ally within the sphere, and have that ally walk out. Fly is a good spell for this; the target doesn't have to worry about you getting hit by a stray arrow and losing concentration.

Or you could cast enhance ability Bull's Strength on one or two of those Engineers who are loading the catapult. Fire rate increase right there.

[Socratov]

Commoner with shortbow +0 to hit for 1d6 damage. Goblin AC 15, 7 hit points, spd 30ft. 2 hits required for a kill.

At range 320ft to 81ft: 9% chance of hit. 10 commoners can hit once per round. Time to cover distance: 3 rounds. Kills per pillbox: 1.5

At range 80 to 0ft: 30% chance to hit. 10 commoners can hit 3 times per round. Time to cover distance: just over one round, call it three as they keep going past and reach 80ft the other direction. Kills per pillbox: 4.5 kills.

Thats a total of six kills per pillbox until the Goblins are back out of close range. And assuming they don't have any way to take cover on the approach.
My math was off for common commonners, I was expecting some form of town guard or militia who should have a slightly better chance at hitting the gobbos

It's definitely not earthshaking, but it is very good for a 3rd level ritual that doesn't require concentration.

Furthermore, the wizard is not completely tied down while within the sphere. They can pick up a light crossbow themselves (they probably have a better DEX modifier than commoners at the very least, and they can add their proficiency bonus), and they can still cast spells targeting something inside the sphere. OR your familiar can deliver touch spells up to 100 feet

This means they can't fireball enemies outside, but they can still cast a buff on an ally within the sphere, and have that ally walk out. Fly is a good spell for this; the target doesn't have to worry about you getting hit by a stray arrow and losing concentration.

Or you could cast enhance ability Bull's Strength on one or two of those Engineers who are loading the catapult. Fire rate increase right there.
and ofcourse this. the fact that it's not concentration makes this a great spell. and the fact that you can't cast out.

As for Sigreid: the spell specifically mentions that stuff form outside doesn't get in, but stuff from inside can get out. that's the real beauty of the spell. This makes it harder to resupply, but that can be done by taking enough ammo with you and to resupply at redomification times (as in the point where a new Leomund's Lasciviciously Penetrating Pillbox is cast).

[Tanarii]

My math was off for common commonners, I was expecting some form of town guard or militia who should have a slightly better chance at hitting the gobbos
Assume they are proficient with a Dex bonus of +2: +4 vs AC 15, 2 hits to kill.

Range 320-80: 3 rounds with 16% hit rate: 10 commoners get 4.5 hits.
Range 80-80: 3 rounds with 40% hit rate: 10 commoners get 12 hits.

Total kills per pillbox: 8.25 goblins

[Giant2005]

Assume they are proficient with a Dex bonus of +2: +4 vs AC 15, 2 hits to kill.

Range 320-80: 3 rounds with 16% hit rate: 10 commoners get 4.5 hits.
Range 80-80: 3 rounds with 40% hit rate: 10 commoners get 12 hits.

Total kills per pillbox: 8.25 goblins

I assume you have the goblins taking the dash action each round? If so they should stop taking the dash action and start taking the dodge action once they get in short range.

[TheFlyingCleric]

Assume they are proficient with a Dex bonus of +2: +4 vs AC 15, 2 hits to kill.

Range 320-80: 3 rounds with 16% hit rate: 10 commoners get 4.5 hits.
Range 80-80: 3 rounds with 40% hit rate: 10 commoners get 12 hits.

Total kills per pillbox: 8.25 goblins

That seems a little low... +4 bonus vs 15 AC, they only need to roll an 11 to hit (50%). So why is it 40% hit rate? Unless it's taking into account low cover, but they are assumed to be dashing that distance.
My calculations result in 22.5 hits. 11.25 goblins.
This doesn't take into account crits

As for using the dodge action instead of dashing, they'll take half as many hits (25% vs 50%) but spend twice as long in the close range. No net benefit, except a reduced crit chance perhaps?


How about getting a first level cleric or two in the sphere? That would improve the hit chance (for blessed targets) to 62.5% / 39.1%.

This sphere is starting to get crowded...

[Democratus]

Keep in mind that it is not a sphere. It is a dome.

There is nothing to prevent things from digging into the area of the Hut from below.

[Tanarii]

That seems a little low... +4 bonus vs 15 AC, they only need to roll an 11 to hit (50%). So why is it 40% hit rate?Because I used anydice and +2 to hit instead of +4 to hit, and my brain shut down and didn't think about the results. :smallredface:

Off the top of my head, that should change the results to 25% hit / 7.5 hits, 50% / 15 hits, for a total of 22.5 hits or 11.25 kills.

We've achieved greater than 1 kill / commoner for 6 rounds of fire! :smallamused:

[coredump]

That makes it a perimeter increase. (snipped results of being 300' out.)



At range 320ft to 81ft: 9% chance of hit. 10 commoners can hit once per round. Time to cover distance: 3 rounds. Kills per pillbox: 1.5

At range 80 to 0ft: 30% chance to hit. 10 commoners can hit 3 times per round. Time to cover distance: just over one round, call it three as they keep going past and reach 80ft the other direction. Kills per pillbox: 4.5 kills.
.

You guys are completely missing the problem created by the size of the 'perimeter'.

Lets say the town is only 200 yards in diameter (freaking tiny for a town, maybe a decent sized village)
Now you want to increase the 'perimeter' by putting the huts 300' out, giving you a radius of 600'. Which gives a circumference of almost 3800'.
So you will need at least 12 huts, or they will be able to just run between them and never get touched.
You will need at least *48* huts or they will just run between them and always be in long range.
It just isn't feasible, and this is for a village.... if a village has access to 12-24 spell casters, just kill the goblins.

Lets say you keep them closer, and only put the huts out 80'.
That is still a radius of 380', a circumference of 2400'
That still requires at least 8 huts to get any shots at them, or 30 huts to get any shots without disadvantage.


A better use would be to place a few huts *in* the town to be used as a base. Troops could sally out to engage small bands, and run back to safety when in danger of being overrun. Sight lines aren't as great, but it is better then just watching them running past laughing at you.

[Tanarii]

You guys are completely missing the problem created by the size of the 'perimeter'.hahaha something something trees and forests

[tieren]

You would need a lot of wizards - each wizard is only capable of sustaining a single pillbox.

I always liked the idea of the ever advancing overlapping LTH's. You would just need two casters that could cast it as a ritual. Once the first caster makes one the other caster walks to the farthest point he can inside the dome but in the desired direction of travel and makes a new one, party moves into the new one dropping the old one and first character repeats the process. If they get worn out they can always break for a long or short rest.

Would create some interesting scenarios. Advancing on the enemy castle they can't do a lot to stop your advance but they have a ton of time to prepare for when you get there, they could try to get out ahead of you and dig ditches or something and get into some really slow speed counters.

[Segev]

You guys are completely missing the problem created by the size of the 'perimeter'.

Lets say the town is only 200 yards in diameter (freaking tiny for a town, maybe a decent sized village)
Now you want to increase the 'perimeter' by putting the huts 300' out, giving you a radius of 600'. Which gives a circumference of almost 3800'.
So you will need at least 12 huts, or they will be able to just run between them and never get touched.
You will need at least *48* huts or they will just run between them and always be in long range.
It just isn't feasible, and this is for a village.... if a village has access to 12-24 spell casters, just kill the goblins.

Lets say you keep them closer, and only put the huts out 80'.
That is still a radius of 380', a circumference of 2400'
That still requires at least 8 huts to get any shots at them, or 30 huts to get any shots without disadvantage.


A better use would be to place a few huts *in* the town to be used as a base. Troops could sally out to engage small bands, and run back to safety when in danger of being overrun. Sight lines aren't as great, but it is better then just watching them running past laughing at you.

If you can use the positioning to ensure that you channel the enemy forces into particular corridors, that's still pretty useful.

But there's also the fact that it provides a good forward operations point. Get your strike forces placed out there, and now when the goblins rush past, they're vulnerable to attacks from the rear. Attacks which can retreat to the safety of the tiny hut if the goblins turn to deal with that force.

Strategically, many forts weren't placed because they were, themselves, something worth having. They were placed because they couldn't be ignored by a force heading towards what IS worth having, since ignoring them leaves an armed and dangerous force between you and your supply lines, and leaves your back exposed.

[dickerson76]

I always liked the idea of the ever advancing overlapping LTH's. You would just need two casters that could cast it as a ritual. Once the first caster makes one the other caster walks to the farthest point he can inside the dome but in the desired direction of travel and makes a new one, party moves into the new one dropping the old one and first character repeats the process. If they get worn out they can always break for a long or short rest.

Would create some interesting scenarios. Advancing on the enemy castle they can't do a lot to stop your advance but they have a ton of time to prepare for when you get there, they could try to get out ahead of you and dig ditches or something and get into some really slow speed counters.

With that approach, you could move 20 feet every 10 minutes. Anyone with any foresight wouldn't let you get anywhere near their castle. It wouldn't be too hard to get some impediments in your way to force you into a corral.

[JoeJ]

With that approach, you could move 20 feet every 10 minutes. Anyone with any foresight wouldn't let you get anywhere near their castle. It wouldn't be too hard to get some impediments in your way to force you into a corral.

Behind an improvised barrier you have one spellcaster with Dispel Magic and 100 archers, who all ready an action to fire as soon as the LTH goes down.

Like many other spells, LTH is much less powerful when both sides can use magic.

[Daishain]

With that approach, you could move 20 feet every 10 minutes. Anyone with any foresight wouldn't let you get anywhere near their castle. It wouldn't be too hard to get some impediments in your way to force you into a corral.
Keep them pinned inside the domes with heavy fire, and use mold earth cantrips to bury said domes with mud.

[RickAllison]

Behind an improvised barrier you have one spellcaster with Dispel Magic and 100 archers, who all ready an action to fire as soon as the LTH goes down.

Like many other spells, LTH is much less powerful when both sides can use magic.

And they are duped by the epic Fighter inside, who is carrying his Armoire of Invincibility squarely atop his head. The archers' arrows rain futilely upon the unstoppable cabinet as the rest of the party stands in awe of the warrior who actually found a use for it!

[Doug Lampert]

And they are duped by the epic Fighter inside, who is carrying his Armoire of Invincibility squarely atop his head. The archers' arrows rain futilely upon the unstoppable cabinet as the rest of the party stands in awe of the warrior who actually found a use for it!

Too late, I'm too busy being awed that the big bad was taken out by a party of four white mages.

[Democratus]

Keep them pinned inside the domes with heavy fire, and use mold earth cantrips to bury said domes with mud.

Or just dig a bit under the rim of the dome and you can start casting spells in there.

[Mellack]

Doesn't Mold Earth only have a 30' range? Seems pretty dangerous to get your caster that close.

[coredump]

I always liked the idea of the ever advancing overlapping LTH's. You would just need two casters that could cast it as a ritual. Once the first caster makes one the other caster walks to the farthest point he can inside the dome but in the desired direction of travel and makes a new one, party moves into the new one dropping the old one and first character repeats the process. If they get worn out they can always break for a long or short rest.

Would create some interesting scenarios. Advancing on the enemy castle they can't do a lot to stop your advance but they have a ton of time to prepare for when you get there, they could try to get out ahead of you and dig ditches or something and get into some really slow speed counters.

That just doesn't work.

First problem is the 'speed'. The spell is centered on the caster, and the sides are curved. So even assuming the caster can crouch down near the edge, you are gaining 3-4' of movement every 11 minutes. Which is less than 20' an hour. It would take you 3 hours to cover the ground they could 'dash' in one round.

Second is the 'payload'. With 2 casters, you are able to 'transport' 8 other people. Just how much damage can do you with 8 people? And if they are that tough, why do they need to spend 15 hours to move the length of a football field?

Third is the legality. The Hut "Spells and other magical effects can’t extend through the dome or be cast through it." I would assume casting another dome would be 'extending' an effect 'through' the dome. You could try and time it so one drops and the other is cast.... but that becomes much more of an issue, and opens up some other problems.

Last of all is the response. There are easily dozens of simple counters to stop this since you likely have hours to prepare. A large mound of dirt, a hole in the ground, soak the ground in oil, move up a portable wall and stand behind it, stand an invisible person in front of the hut, walk away, attack their base , etc etc



If you can use the positioning to ensure that you channel the enemy forces into particular corridors, that's still pretty useful.

You still are not limiting things very much, even with *48* huts, there is only time to *maybe* get a single shot at normal range. It just isn't a deterrent. Sure, you could put them closer so the normal range overlaps more, but now you are taking 48 spell casters to create 48 huts, and still leaving about half of the town exposed, and those 48 casters are pretty much out of the fight. What a complete waste.
And where is a simple village finding 48 casters?
And any attack that warrants 48 casters, probably has a *huge* army attacking, and then they can simply charge past 1-2 huts and absorb the small damage, while the other 45+ casters/huts are too far away to do much good.


But there's also the fact that it provides a good forward operations point. Get your strike forces placed out there, and now when the goblins rush past, they're vulnerable to attacks from the rear. Attacks which can retreat to the safety of the tiny hut if the goblins turn to deal with that force.
That only works if the 'strike force' is large enough to be effective, and far enough out to harrass before the enemy can get to their goal. Neither of these are true. So you have 9 commoners/guards/whatever.... that is not a threat against a goblin army. And they can just blow by you to get to the village/town anyway. Then your only choice is to run after them and fight in the city. The 'hut' does nothing for you in that scenario.


Strategically, many forts weren't placed because they were, themselves, something worth having. They were placed because they couldn't be ignored by a force heading towards what IS worth having, since ignoring them leaves an armed and dangerous force between you and your supply lines, and leaves your back exposed.Again, those forts would hold a lot of men, and they would be placed far out from the valuable cities. There are no 'supply lines' in this scenario and they can't do anything to prevent the actual attack.

[Segev]

That only works if the 'strike force' is large enough to be effective, and far enough out to harrass before the enemy can get to their goal. Neither of these are true. So you have 9 commoners/guards/whatever.... that is not a threat against a goblin army. And they can just blow by you to get to the village/town anyway. Then your only choice is to run after them and fight in the city. The 'hut' does nothing for you in that scenario.

Again, those forts would hold a lot of men, and they would be placed far out from the valuable cities. There are no 'supply lines' in this scenario and they can't do anything to prevent the actual attack.

Actually, if you can use hit-and-run tactics to force the army into a choice of dividing its attention or having its rearward flanks picked off, it's valuable. One adventuring party becomes a genuine problem for a goblin army, despite their numbers, without having to rely on being so much higher level that the goblins are helpless against them.

Giving a hard point to which to fall back changes things immensely.

[coredump]

Actually, if you can use hit-and-run tactics to force the army into a choice of dividing its attention or having its rearward flanks picked off, it's valuable. One adventuring party becomes a genuine problem for a goblin army, despite their numbers, without having to rely on being so much higher level that the goblins are helpless against them.

Giving a hard point to which to fall back changes things immensely.

There is no 'dividing' attention. No goblin army is going to care about 8 guys running around. The goblins run past the hut and start ransacking the town. Sure the guards can now leave the hut and run all the way to town, but they might as well have just stayed in town. To be useful as a 'fall back' the hut needs to be close enough to fall back to, and in a direction they have access to. Being hundreds of feet from the edge of town doesn't work.
Thats why I suggested putting the huts *in* the town may be of some use. Now hit and run tactics may be of use, and this way you can have a hard point to protect important locations (food storage, etc)

[Theodoxus]

i think I'm going to use this in reverse... have my party face a barricade of LTH's... see how they handle it.

[krugaan]

i'm divided on this...

While I love the pillbox idea, the fact that's immobile and chews up basically one whole spellcaster kind of sucks. Is a pillbox filled with NPC archers worth losing a fireball / WOF / mass aoe CC?

a horde of goblin mooks is fairly weak to casters in a defendable spot (like, behind a high wall or in a tower or something).

[Theodoxus]

i'm divided on this...

While I love the pillbox idea, the fact that's immobile and chews up basically one whole spellcaster kind of sucks. Is a pillbox filled with NPC archers worth losing a fireball / WOF / mass aoe CC?

a horde of goblin mooks is fairly weak to casters in a defendable spot (like, behind a high wall or in a tower or something).

I'm currently running Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but my players are 7th level (they started with LMoP and went to Greenest). Anyway, they're about to re-explore the raider camp (scenario 3) - I'm thinking of blocking the cave with LTHs - probably stacked on outcroppings. As an added challenge; since simply increasing the CR of critters only goes so far.

Oh, and it doesn't require a 5th level cleric to feed your troops... 1st level druid or nature cleric can feed all 10, every day, forever. Heck, a Wizard 5/Druid 1 (or cleric) can live quite comfortably (if bored) forever in a LTH...

[Daishain]

Doesn't Mold Earth only have a 30' range? Seems pretty dangerous to get your caster that close.
Just use a few mantlets to get them in close. Little quite like mobile full cover to keep one's arse out of the fire.

[Segev]

i think I'm going to use this in reverse... have my party face a barricade of LTH's... see how they handle it.

If they're smart, they'll run for their lives from the barricade of minimum-5th-level mages they just encountered.

[Daishain]

If they're smart, they'll run for their lives from the barricade of minimum-5th-level mages they just encountered.
Not necessarily. As the DM, one could easily whip up a magic item that'l bypass the need for so many mages. For instance a staff that can lay down a limited number of LTH "seeds", or perhaps a nodal structure that will copy a spell cast upon its central control crystal in a specific pattern.

Main trick then is keeping the players from picking it up and abusing it.

[krugaan]

If they're smart, they'll run for their lives from the barricade of minimum-5th-level mages they just encountered.

That was my thinking. Five pillboxes with 10 archers each? Or five mages casting fireballs which wipe out 600 sq ft of goblins per round?

[Malifice]

Elves can trance for 4 hours instead of sleeping for 8 hours. This matters because the spell only has a duration of 8 hours, and it takes at least a minute to recast it...

A long rest is 8 hours long. For everyone. You dont get long rest resources back until those 8 hours passes.

Elves trance for 4 hours of it and twiddle thumbs or sit watch or whatever for the remaining 4 hours.

[RickAllison]

That was my thinking. Five pillboxes with 10 archers each? Or five mages casting fireballs which wipe out 600 sq ft of goblins per round?

How about 5 mages housing 9 archers each. The archers ready actions to attack when they move out of the sphere and Fireball. You get the nuking and then the focus fire if the archers, 5 times.

[Zalabim]

I assume you have the goblins taking the dash action each round? If so they should stop taking the dash action and start taking the dodge action once they get in short range.

Keep taking the Dash action, but drop prone at the end of their movement. They'll move forward at 1.5X movement instead of 2X movement or 1X movement and dodging.


How about 5 mages housing 9 archers each. The archers ready actions to attack when they move out of the sphere and Fireball. You get the nuking and then the focus fire if the archers, 5 times.

But then you don't have pillboxes. You have capsule encounters.

[TheFlyingCleric]

Is a pillbox filled with NPC archers worth losing a fireball / WOF / mass aoe CC?

Probably not. luckily, it's a ritual, so you can cast it without using a spell slot if you have the time. Very useful if you've already expended your spell slots for whatever reason.
The Wizard won't be able to unleash their destructive might while holding the hut, but if for whatever reason they want to stop with the whole hut thing... then it cost them nothing but 11 minutes of casting time.


As for enemies circumventing the hut, remember that it is a very lucky attacker who finds himself able to mount a 360 degree assault on the enemy position. More likely, there will be a limited section of wall around one of the gates serving a road leading up to a castle or such, which they can mount an effective assault against. The weakest point will be the gate, which they may try to bring a ram against. But if you put just one hut right in front of the gate...

You won't be able to make an airtight defense around a position - especially not with Leomund's tiny huts; that's just not possible without access to level 7 spells. But a single Hut in the right place, in addition to regular defensive fortifications such as walls or ditches, can remove the biggest weakness in the defenses and makes a position that much harder to assault.

[Segev]

You won't be able to make an airtight defense around a position - especially not with Leomund's tiny huts; that's just not possible without access to level 7 spells. But a single Hut in the right place, in addition to regular defensive fortifications such as walls or ditches, can remove the biggest weakness in the defenses and makes a position that much harder to assault.

Oh, heavens yes. An illusionist with level 7 spells - specifically mirage arcane - can make a nightmarish defense. "Oh, you breeched that wall? No, you didn't; that wall's a solid sheet of adamantine for our adamantine fortress. You are fording the moat? What moat? That's a 300-foot-deep chasm. Wow, you've got your army pressed right against the wall! ...make that the INNER wall, the outer one has cut off your forces from your front line, making it a lot easier to pick that off."

Every round, the entire fortress is remodeled and repaired and restructured.

[krugaan]

Oh, heavens yes. An illusionist with level 7 spells - specifically mirage arcane - can make a nightmarish defense. "Oh, you breeched that wall? No, you didn't; that wall's a solid sheet of adamantine for our adamantine fortress. You are fording the moat? What moat? That's a 300-foot-deep chasm. Wow, you've got your army pressed right against the wall! ...make that the INNER wall, the outer one has cut off your forces from your front line, making it a lot easier to pick that off."

Every round, the entire fortress is remodeled and repaired and restructured.

Hah, that's nice, by then illusory reality is online?

You could even taunt the goblins with murals of naked dwarves and gnomes on the sides of the chasm / fortress. And then make them REAL!

[Toofey]

Would create some interesting scenarios. Advancing on the enemy castle they can't do a lot to stop your advance but they have a ton of time to prepare for when you get there, they could try to get out ahead of you and dig ditches or something and get into some really slow speed counters.

WWI basically

[Segev]

Hah, that's nice, by then illusory reality is online?

You could even taunt the goblins with murals of naked dwarves and gnomes on the sides of the chasm / fortress. And then make them REAL!

You're a level shy of Illusory Reality, but it honestly isnt' all that useful here. What you're using is Malleable Illusions. Mirage arcane itself provides illusions that are solid. Up to and including modifying or creating structures. So just reform the illusion into something suitable (and undamaged) each round...

Of course, enemy mages might try dispel magic, so...

[Socratov]

That was my thinking. Five pillboxes with 10 archers each? Or five mages casting fireballs which wipe out 600 sq ft of goblins per round?

leomund's Tiny Hut is 3rd lvl spell, which caster get at lvl 5. And a ritual. That's not a time when fireballs become a regular thing or big AOE spells being a thing, at that level you are lucky to get 2 spellslots to cast that. That is a moment that if you do encounter an army that the enemies don't get access to dispel magic (which is also 3rd lvl and not a ritual), what'smore, you are considered to hol dout for reinforcements.

With (36-non Leomund's Portable Perimeter casting partymembers) and just a wizard, bard and tomelock (not unthinkable in a party composition) you can do some great stuff. What's more a regular warlock could pick up the spell through magic initiate, cast it in a minute, rest for an hour to regain the spellslot (since Mi spells are considered spells known) and join the fray: stick hand out, cast, pull hand back (that's the fun of a dome).

The things that are essential to warfare at this level: kill as many enemies as you can, keep as many allies alive. Survive the skirmishers, and you've bought another day for the reinforcements to arrive and make a difference. You can slaughter enemies without real problems, though you will need some planning for resupplies since you can't take in new ones (though a wizard with minor creation or another way to summon supplies might do extremely well).

[Tanarii]

What's more a regular warlock could pick up the spell through magic initiate
How's that work? MI gives you a 1st level spell, not a 3rd level one.

[RickAllison]

How's that work? MI gives you a 1st level spell, not a 3rd level one.

Additionally, it only counts as a spell known for spell slots if you took it through a class that you have.

[Socratov]

oops my bad, but a tomelock could learn it, and a generic warlock who took ritual caster could cast it the ritual way adding 10 minutes...