Opinions on the Conjure Ice Beast line.

[tadkins]

Lining up a possible new character for a future game. The ultimate frost wizard. Basically the kind of character that'd give Elsa, Mr. Freeze, Sub-Zero...well, any one of these (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnIcePerson) a run for their money.

I have the character personality and background planned out for the most part. What I'm still debating on is the style of combat for this wizard. Ice blaster, ice summoner, controller, or maybe just a generalist who happens to do everything with a touch of frost. I'm definitely leaning toward the Frost Mage PrC as a focus, and one of the things they get that caught my eye is access to the Conjure Ice Beast spell line. A group of spells normally belonging to Clerics and Druids, but accessible by Wizards with the PrC.

On the surface, this looks like a great thing. A wizard being able to use both summon monster and summon nature's ally without needing a lot of clever tricks and system gaming. The flipside is that all of the creatures I summon with it must be freezing. This could be both a good thing (can take cold-based feats/spells to work in synergy with them) and a bad thing (enemies who learn my schtick can exploit weaknesses).

Is my assessment correct here for the most part, or am I missing anything?

[eggynack]

The thing you're missing is that the ice beast template does more than make your creature icy, like some spell form of beckon the frozen. It also makes the creature lose all special attacks and qualities, in favor of some rather weak ones defined by the template. It also loses its alternate movement modes (mostly), some of its feats, all of its skills, and you trade out your AC bonus and HP for some predetermined numbers that could be better or worse. It's not all downside, of course. Construct traits are nice, and some of those special attacks are at least nice to have access to, but losing all of those abilities is disaster for the usually special ability oriented summon monster, and pretty bad for the often special attack and occasionally ability oriented summon nature's ally. Doesn't help that it's not a summoning spell, losing you out on summoning synergies.

[Bronk]

It can be a good spell for a cleric without any arcane allies, because the ice beasts come with cold based area effect attacks. Clerics have few damaging area affect spells at low levels, so this works out well when encountering swarms. Wizards don't have as much of a limitation in that area.

Depending on the beast's size, they can get a HP boost, which is nice.

[Darrin]

I'm a big fan of the CIB spells.

It gives you access to the SNA creatures, which tend to have better stats than the SM line. Yes, you lose SA/SQs, but you also get two interesting SAs:

Cold aura: 1/round 10' burst of 1d6 [cold] damage as a free action, and there's no save. This turns CIB into something of a "blaster" spell, as you can summon multiple IBs and surround your target for Xd6 [cold] damage.

Engulf: The larger-sized giant centipedes can swallow hole medium-sized or large-sized creatures.

[tadkins]

Thanks for the responses everyone. :)

It sounds like I'm better off using CIB on monsters that are beefier/more combat based, and save SM for the ones used typically as utility.

I do like the idea of using higher level CIBs to summon swarms of lower level monsters for multiple pulsing cold-auras, too.

[Pluto!]

I like it quite a bit, but I only like it in a certain niche.

It gives Clerics some serious fatties to summon at level 3 or so, when the SNA list damage bonus, aura bonus and HP bonus are bigger than you'd normally get out of a summon spell.

On the other hand, it's a pretty bad spell for summoning specialists because its combat benefits are comparable to those of Augment Summoning (they don't stack), but without the flexibility of SLAs, mobility speeds, scouting capabilities or other special qualities and attacks. And it doesn't give SNA-casters very much at all because SM creatures without supernatural/spell-like abilities are just worse than the SNA list has already.

So for a melee or healbot cleric who wants to fill a combat spell slot, casting CIB2 for a Ice Beast Hippogriff will obsolete the level 3 fighter then and there, but it's a much less compelling option for something like a level 13 Archivist with Augment Summoning and a Ring of the Beast because it's worse than any other summon spell he might use his slots for. (Well, maybe not worse than Summon Desert Ally. Maybe.)

[tadkins]

On the other hand, it's a pretty bad spell for summoning specialists because its combat benefits are comparable to those of Augment Summoning (they don't stack), but without the flexibility of SLAs, mobility speeds, scouting capabilities or other special qualities and attacks. And it doesn't give SNA-casters very much at all because SM creatures without supernatural/spell-like abilities are just worse than the SNA list has already.

So for a melee or healbot cleric who wants to fill a combat spell slot, casting CIB2 for a Ice Beast Hippogriff will obsolete the level 3 fighter then and there, but it's a much less compelling option for something like a level 13 Archivist with Augment Summoning and a Ring of the Beast because it's worse than any other summon spell he might use his slots for. (Well, maybe not worse than Summon Desert Ally. Maybe.)

It sounds like it could be a good option for a wizard who isn't a summoning specialist though, right? Summon a couple of beefy frozen walls, then make with the blasting/battlefield control.

[Pluto!]

CIB isn't on the Wizard spell list, so it's pretty much a Cleric thing unless you burn resources getting it - at which point, you may as well sink the same resources into actual summoning.

[tadkins]

CIB isn't on the Wizard spell list, so it's pretty much a Cleric thing unless you burn resources getting it - at which point, you may as well sink the same resources into actual summoning.

You get 'em as a Wizard taking the Frost Mage PrC.

[Pluto!]

You get 'em as a Wizard taking the Frost Mage PrC.
The level delay on Frost Mage makes them pretty bad, since Ice Beasts are pretty poor out-of-combat and aren't so hot on the front line when you're getting them 7 levels late.

Archivist could reasonably have a scenario where they'd be useful though.

[tadkins]

The level delay on Frost Mage makes them pretty bad, since Ice Beasts are pretty poor out-of-combat and aren't so hot on the front line when you're getting them 7 levels late.

Archivist could reasonably have a scenario where they'd be useful though.

Hmm...I didn't think of that. Good point.

Thanks for the help. I might have to try another route to being the ultimate frost wizard. xD

[Coidzor]

Some of them might be worth the time and money to research arcane versions thereof, though, if that's something you can finagle with the DM.

[Fizban]

Conjure Ice Beast is solid, you'll only use a few of the options due to the template mechanics hosing the rest but they'll fight just fine. The fact that they're not summoning is a feature, letting you summon conjure guys with impunity even when dimensionally locked or dealing with some other interference like Distort Summons. It's what the Summon Desert Ally line wishes it was, actually useable.

Frost Mage access is terrible, makes no sense, and is an insult. The whole class is actually. The special note under Piercing Cold further shows the writer didn't know what they were doing, since Piercing Cold doesn't care about magic items or specify that it only works on natural resistances. Unless for some reason you really want +4 natural armor and innate cold subtype (at admittedly zero casting loss), there's no reason to take this class. Sadly any other energy specialist will have to lose casting for the "privilege," otherwise I'd recommend messing with Elemental or Argent Savants.

You've already noticed by now that most of the good frost attack spells are on the cleric's list, and the Winterhaunt of Iborighu has all the stuff Frost Mage and Elemental Savant wish they had. If you're playing a non-epic game you can probably stand not having Iceberg or Frostfell since they don't show up until 9th anyway. Otherwise, if you really want it all I guess you're stuck cheesing a double 9's theurge. Similar problem trying to get all the slime spells, can't do it without theurge but at least you don't need 9's for slime time.

[tadkins]

Frost Mage access is terrible, makes no sense, and is an insult. The whole class is actually. The special note under Piercing Cold further shows the writer didn't know what they were doing, since Piercing Cold doesn't care about magic items or specify that it only works on natural resistances. Unless for some reason you really want +4 natural armor and innate cold subtype (at admittedly zero casting loss), there's no reason to take this class. Sadly any other energy specialist will have to lose casting for the "privilege," otherwise I'd recommend messing with Elemental or Argent Savants.

You've already noticed by now that most of the good frost attack spells are on the cleric's list, and the Winterhaunt of Iborighu has all the stuff Frost Mage and Elemental Savant wish they had. If you're playing a non-epic game you can probably stand not having Iceberg or Frostfell since they don't show up until 9th anyway. Otherwise, if you really want it all I guess you're stuck cheesing a double 9's theurge. Similar problem trying to get all the slime spells, can't do it without theurge but at least you don't need 9's for slime time.

That's a pity. Honestly I'd consider Cleric or Druid if I wasn't after more spells than just cold. Prismatic/color spells are also pretty fitting for the theme, representing the auroras typically found in the northern lands. So I'm pretty set on making an arcane character.

At this point I'm considering just making a standard god wizard and just infusing the "northern mage" theme into the RP. Wearing a fluffy white fur robe, maybe taking the Archmage PrC and using Mastery of Elements Cold more often than not, and so forth.

[Fizban]

If you're willing to burn points on wisdom and eat the stupid non-cleric domain restrictions, Arcane Disciple (Winter) will net you Snowsight, Snow Walk, Blizzard, Death Hail, and Summon (Frost) Giant. Blizzard has no outdoor restrictions and really fouls up anyone who doesn't have Snowsight+Snow Walk. You could also burn some 3 feats on Focus, Augment, and Beckon the Frozen to get a tiny bit more damage and flavor on summons, but yeah it's not what you want.

Or just ask your DM to un-suckify Frost Mage and give you the full line of Conjure Ice Beast like it obviously should (seriously, ice beast 1-4 and then straight to a 9th level spell you can already learn? wtf?). If he wants to charge caster levels then you can demand more than just a single alternate summon line, so long as you stick to a theme and don't try to just take everything. Sandshaper has a lot of problems and a fundamentally different aim, but when it takes a caster level it gives a lot more spells than just it's bad summon line.