oracle and hellknight signifier interaction

[Kahlendrrari]

An oracle with levels in hellknight signifier can stack their levels to determine the power of their revelation.

Does this also determine which revelations they can choose if they decide to take another level in oracle that grants access to a new revelation?

such as: oracle 6 / hellknight signifier 9 / oracle 1 (16th level character, treats revelations as if they are a 16th level oracle) can they choose revelations as if they were a 16th level oracle gaining access to revelations that can only be chosen by an oracle of a certain level?

Catechesis (Ex): If a Hellknight signifer has the Warrior Priest feat, his Hellknight signifer level stacks with other divine spellcasting classes for determining the effects of those classes’ domain powers, inquisitions, and mysteries. This doesn’t grant any new powers or abilities.

If the character chooses a revelation that gains "a new power" at a certain level, do the signifier levels allow them to gain the secondary power granted by the revelation?

so an example would be an oracle of metal with the dance of the blades revelation. This revelation has different abilities that come on line at different levels. Would an oracle 6 / hellknight signifier 5 gain all of the abilities as if they were an oracle 11? or would they just gain them as if they were 6th level? If they decided to take another level of oracle to make it oracle 7 / hellknight signifier 5 would they be able to choose the iron skin revelation?

[Florian]

Generally speaking, scaling class features scale by actual class levels, not by overall character level.
Catechism allows to count Hellknight Signifier levels as being Cleric or Oracle levels for scaling, nothing more.

To use the Life mystery Life Link revelation as a example: Your Oracle7/Hellknight Signifier 9 could bond with up to 16 creatures as the regular 1 creature/Oracle level is extended by Catechism.

[grarrrg]

The "This doesn’t grant any new powers or abilities." just reinforces that you don't get any new Revelations from Hellknight levels.
Although you can still take the "Extra Revelation" feat, or later take more Oracle.

Revelations that gain different/extra effects with level (e.g. Dance of Blades) will still gain those effects with Hellknight levels, as that's an 'effect' of the Revelation you already have, and not a wholly new ability.

As for 'help qualify for new powers' that's a bit less clear. A strict wording of the stacking would result in an Oracle 6/Hellknight X only counting as Oracle 6 for the purposes of taking new Revelations (Extra Revelation feat, more levels of Oracle...).
Ultimately you'd have to ask your DM, but I see little issue with letting the levels stack for qualification purposes.

[Kahlendrrari]

while the first of my questions was more of an affirmation, the second part about qualifying for an ability based off level is still kind of vague. It seems to me that the only requirement that actually needs to be met to gain a revelation with a level requirement (such as the iron skin) is to be at least of that certain level. I have read a few different reprints of Ultimate magic and from what I'm gathering, is that you only have to be level 11 to gain said revelation. So by RAW, I could go commoner 10 / oracle 1 and get the iron skin revelation, as nowhere in the text does it state that the character has to be an 11th level oracle to choose it.... it only states that the character needs to be 11th level. The down side being to the above case is that the spell like ability's caster level is based off the character's oracle level, which would only be 1.

[Florian]

while the first of my questions was more of an affirmation, the second part about qualifying for an ability based off level is still kind of vague. It seems to me that the only requirement that actually needs to be met to gain a revelation with a level requirement (such as the iron skin) is to be at least of that certain level. I have read a few different reprints of Ultimate magic and from what I'm gathering, is that you only have to be level 11 to gain said revelation. So by RAW, I could go commoner 10 / oracle 1 and get the iron skin revelation, as nowhere in the text does it state that the character has to be an 11th level oracle to choose it.... it only states that the character needs to be 11th level. The down side being to the above case is that the spell like ability's caster level is based off the character's oracle level, which would only be 1.

Sorry, but where exactly did you get that?

In PF, there´s a strict difference between "class level" and "character level" and those don´t mesh unless you have a specific ability to do so or you´re explicitly told to use one as the other.

For the Oracle class, only your actual class levels count for acquisition of revelations and them scaling, if they do that.
The Hellknight Signifier PrC simply allows you to count that class towards Oracle class levels when issues of scaling are involved.

I don´t see the basis for trying to read anything out of that beyond that.

[Kahlendrrari]

Iron Skin (Sp): .........This ability functions as stoneskin, using your oracle level as the caster level, except it only affects you. At 15th level, you can use this ability twice per day. You must be at least 11th level to select this revelation.



It specifically mentions oracle level for the caster level. There is no such mention of class level for being able to use this twice, nor qualifying to select this ability.

[grarrrg]

Iron Skin...You must be at least 11th level to select this revelation.

It specifically mentions oracle level for the caster level. There is no such mention of class level for being able to use this twice, nor qualifying to select this ability.

Linky (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Multiclassing)
"Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class."

This means that Oracle abilities ONLY function off of Oracle levels, unless something specifically states otherwise.
Usually if they mean 'character level', they will write 'character level'.

They did it this way so that they could just write "Xth level", instead of constantly spelling out "X levels of Oracle".

[Florian]

@Kahlendrrari:

Get used to the concept of exception-based design. This will help you read most table entries in PF.

What that means is that you are expected to know the basic rules and from then on out, the system will will only ever mention specific exceptions to the established rule. That saves a lot of writing space and should help prevent discussions.

The basic rule has already been mentioned: Class features are only gained or scale by their originating class.

From then out out, you´ll only find the exceptions to this rule.
For example, the Dragon Disciple can counts its PrC levels toward the base class levels for gaining and scaling bloodline powers, but not bonus spells or feats.
The Hellknight Signifier we discuss here only counts towards scaling, no new gain, no bonus feats.
And so on.

[Psyren]

The Catechesis scaling does make you count as X level for your Mystery though, which means Extra Revelation should work as an acquisition method.