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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Shapeshifing Ranger Archetype [PEACH]



zeek0
2016-05-25, 02:48 PM
Wild Shape without being a moon druid is largely utilitarian. Moon druids stay competitive by increasing the CR they can change into. But the damage can still stay competitive if you have Extra Attack and don't mind sticking with lower defenses.

The idea here is to combine the extra attack feature with normal beast attacks. After gaining multiple attacks, low-CR beasts can do competitive damage to enemies.

The concept is a ranger who can quickly change into a beast, and dish out good damage before the temporary HP is run down.

Wild Spirit
In some cultures they believe that there are those born with a wild spirit, a spirit suffused with the transformative aspect of nature. Most never discover the powers latent within them. But if trained by nature, fate, or artifice then the wild spirit can come to the fore.
Where other rangers gain control over nature or master it, those with the wild spirit become a part of nature by transforming into beasts and taking animal traits into themselves.
A wild spirit in combat is fearsome – using animals as temporary forms to deal savage attacks against targets, then continuing the offensive when forced to revert back to their natural humanoid shape.

Wild Shape
At level 3, you gain the Wild Shape feature as listed in the Druid class.
Changes: Performed as a bonus action. Magical beast form attacks at level 6.

Partial Transformation
Starting at 7th level, you can perform a finely tuned transformation as a bonus action. You partially transform your body, gaining additional animal traits while retaining your form. The transformation lasts for one minute, and ends if you perform a different partial transformation. You may perform a partial transformation a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier. You regain all uses of this feature after a short rest.
Beasthide. You gain a +1 bonus to AC.
Coiled Strikes. When you deal damage with a weapon attack to a target who is unaware of your presence you deal an additional 3d6 damage.
Farstrider. Your movement speed increases by 10 feet. In addition, you may use the Dash action as a bonus action.
Keen Senses. You gain advantage on all Wisdom-based checks and saving throws.
Mountainwalk. You gain a climb speed of 30 feet. In addition, you have advantage on Strength and Dexterity saving throws made against effects that would knock you prone.
Waterborne. You adapt your body to the water, gaining gills and a swimming speed equal to your walking speed.

Greater Forms
Starting at 11th level, you gain the ability to transform into greater beasts. You may wild shape into any beast of CR 2 or lower.

Bestial Aspect
At 15th level, your senses are elevated beyond that of most beasts and you can discern what even they cannot. Choose one of the following benefits:
Sight. Your sight allows you to see through the illusory and hidden. You gain truesight in a 10 foot radius. You can see up to 1 mile away without difficulty, able to discern even fine details as through looking at something no more than 100 feet away from you. Additionally, dim light doesn’t impose disadvantage on your Wisdom (Perception) checks.
Sound. Superior hearing allows you to react to enemies and garner information. You cannot be surprised, and gain blindsight in a 60 foot radius. In addition, you can understand conversation within 120 feet or identify a sound that you have heard before.
Smell. You are able to sense the presence of nearby enemies and track them across impossible distances. You can track creatures while traveling at a fast pace, even across planes. Additionally, choose one creature type. You can sense if that creature type is within 120 feet of you. This feature doesn’t reveal the creature’s location or number. You may change the creature type at the end of a short rest.

What I'd like help with:
-Are there more Partial Transformations that I should consider?
-This is all rather unorthodox. Do I have my numbers right, and this is both viable and not overpowered?
-I think the name is bland. Help?
An updated version of this homebrew lies in my signature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20886261&postcount=285). Let me know if you have any questions!

Final Hyena
2016-05-25, 04:19 PM
As written partial transformation has no action to use or stacking limitations. Making it a bonus action would likely handle both of those concerns.

Savage Warrior is a problem.
A TWF has 4 attacks dealing 2d6 (brutal attack) +5 dex +d6 (mark) or 15.5 damage across 4 attacks (62).
Granted this takes set up, but even if you ignore mark you're doing 12 damage across 4 attacks (48).
With it lasting a minute and wisdom uses you should have plenty.

I do love the idea of a shapeshifting Ranger, but it needs a little smoothing out. My suggestion would be to make the level 3 feature be your partial transformations and at each later archetype feature you get more options for transformations you can unlock.

zeek0
2016-05-26, 02:16 AM
Thanks for the reply!

It was my mistake to not include the bonus action tag or stacking limitations on Partial Transformation. It has been amended.

I agree that the brutal attacks / savage warrior combo is too much. I think that an acceptable solution would be to remove brutal attacks (it's a boring damage increase anyhow). Then the damage is back to being comparable to any other ranger subclass. I'll replace it later with a tactical combat shapeshift instead.

I've considered switching partial transformation and wildshape. But I think that if I flavor partial transformations as a more finely tuned transformation, it makes sense. I think that wild shape is too key to this archetype's concept to delay until 7th level.

Final Hyena
2016-05-26, 09:40 AM
You could rename it "transformations" and have one of the options wildshape.

zeek0
2016-05-26, 12:03 PM
You could rename it "transformations" and have one of the options wildshape.

If you are suggesting that wildshape be an option alongside the current Partial Transformation features, I heartily disagree. Wildshape is such a powerful feature that it overshadows almost anything else.

Wildshape provides all the possible benefits of a transformation (sneaking, swimming, tracking, etc.) If allows flying with no concentration. It gives an unusually large amount of temporary hp. And with extra attack, it ends up dealing a rather large amount of damage.

Wildshape definitely needs its own feature level. Unless I am mistaken on what you said?

Final Hyena
2016-05-26, 01:14 PM
What my first post was really suggesting was to cut out wild shape and focus more on the adaptations, mostly because wildshape is a hassle, and also because we already have a wildshape class.

But I then saw that you're set on wildshape so was contemplating more of a piecemeal system. At 3rd, 7th, 11th & 15th levels you can unlock so many transformations. Each transformation allows certain things for example one would be to turn into a cr 1/4 beast without a fly/swim speed. You can put level pre requisites on certain transformations that would be too powerful. You allow a ranger to swap out a transformation every level as some things might be awkward if only allowed at the 3, 7, 11 & 15 levels when working with wildshape.

zeek0
2016-05-26, 02:00 PM
Hey again - thanks for the explanation.


focus more on the adaptations, mostly because wild shape is a hassle, and also because we already have a wild shape class.

I think that wild shape makes up for its hassle. And my hope is that this class distinguishes itself from the moon druid because of the way it handles combat scaling, partial transformations, and by virtue of the base class it is attached to.


But I then saw that you're set on wild shape so was contemplating more of a piecemeal system.

It seems like your idea is to spread out the possible transformations of wild shape across the archetype's features. While I think that wild shape is a powerful feature, I don't think that it merits being spread across multiple features.

Perhaps I just want some reasons or further explanation. I like that you are offering new ideas, but their merit isn't self-evident to me.

---

I still would like a second opinion on the crunch of Extra Attack + wild shape (especially level 11+). I'm not sure how to calculate or compare it, so I need some help there.

And the name is still rather generic. I wouldn't mind holding to it, but I'm not enamored by it.

Final Hyena
2016-05-26, 03:25 PM
The idea was that wildshape would be spread out across the features, but so would other interesting abilities which you could get as well.

One thing to consider is that the creatures scale poorly, I believe CR2 stuff doesn't go beyond +7 to hit for example. This means (mostly at higher levels) people would rather leave you in wildshape as you're less of a threat.

Phawksin
2016-05-26, 03:45 PM
This is a cool concept, I really like the flavor. If you don't mind shamelessly ripping off I recommend looking at the Pathfinder Hunter class, specifically the animal focus feature to get some more ideas on partial transformations. With that in mind I would suggest giving each partial transformation a combat and non-combat feature, simply because I think it fits the theme and I personally don't like non-spellcasting resources fighting each other for utility/damage. Besides that I think an extra attack at 11 could be fine and not really steal the fighter's thunder, but I don't think it fits the concept here. I might suggest the CR 2 creature in that slot and something more utility at 15 to improve your wildshape and make up for the low CR.

As for a name, I think something like Aspect or Apex could be cool and fit with the theme of "drawing on the power of nature so hard that you become it".

zeek0
2016-05-27, 01:02 AM
The idea was that wildshape would be spread out across the features, but so would other interesting abilities which you could get as well.

I think this might make the class unfocused and confused. In general, I'm not in favor of the Hunter or Totem style of 'pick your feature'.


One thing to consider is that the creatures scale poorly, I believe CR2 stuff doesn't go beyond +7 to hit

Something real to consider. I'll take a look at it to see how I can increase to-hit.


If you don't mind shamelessly ripping off I recommend looking at the Pathfinder Hunter class

No worries, I'm shameless. I'll take a look and see how it can be adapted.


I would suggest giving each partial transformation a combat and non-combat feature, simply because I think it fits the theme and I personally don't like non-spellcasting resources fighting each other for utility/damage.

I agree with your philosophy, but at the moment Partial Transformations recharge after a short rest. As such, I think that this can be okay - most of the time the period between between short rests is either combat or non-combat. In any case, you won't ever go a whole day without Partial Transformations in combat because you used them on non-combat, or vice-versa.


Besides that I think an extra attack at 11 could be fine and not really steal the fighter's thunder, but I don't think it fits the concept here. I might suggest the CR 2 creature in that slot

I broke down and decided to do the math. Here it is:
Hunter at level 11 deals:
+10 [+4(PB)+4(Dex)+2(archery)] to hit, 8.5 average damage [1d8(weapon)+4]
+Multiattack Feature (Assume one additional attack)
+Colossus Slayer (4.5)
3 Attacks: 30 damage

Brown Bear (CR 1) deals:
+5 to hit, 2d6+4 damage (11)
2 Attacks: 22 damage
3 Attacks: 33 damage

Polar Bear (CR 2) deals:
+7 to hit, 2d6+5 damage (12)
2 Attacks: 24 damage
3 Attacks: 36 damage

Now we must consider:
- The level 11 ranger feature increases combat ability similarly to adding an additional attack.
- We need to increase our ability to hit (especially at later levels)

It seems that moving CR 2 down to the level 11 feature won't work - your combat ability isn't increased by an appreciable amount.

There is a concern about the ability to hit as a beast. This is solved either by giving a bonus to hit, or by allowing more attacks (and therefore more chances to hit). I am in favor of the latter - it feels more beast-like.

What this has shown me is that increasing the available CR to 2 is rather lame. It doesn't increase damage by very much and there are only a few options available. I'll take down the feature and think of a better level 15 feature.


As for the name, here's a short list of ideas. Tell me what sounds decent:
Wild Shifter
Apex Predator
Wild Aspect
Savage Aspect
Natural Aspect
Savage Apex
Wild Spirit


Sorry for the long post, but thanks to both of you for your feedback. I'll think more on this.

Final Hyena
2016-05-27, 08:52 AM
Your Hunter maths doesn't mention a few things;
Firstly you assume one additional attack from the multiattack feature when you often can't.
Secondly even if you multi attack 3 enemies you are hitting 3 separate enemies, spread out damage is less effective than stacked up damage (especially when you take hunters mark into account).

Your animal choices are weird, you are choosing creatures who's power comes from multi attacking which doesn't stack with extra attack. If you went for a creature with a stronger single attack you end up with;

Dire Wolf (CR1)
+5 to hit, 10 damage
DC 13 str or prone
advantage from adjacent allies

Rhinoceros (CR2)
+7 to hit, 14 damage

The issue is that at level 11 your ranger is the best ranger there is due to triple attack, and on top of that he has the bonus hp and utility from wildshape.

zeek0
2016-05-28, 01:47 AM
Thanks for the reply Final Hyena - you've given me much to think about.


Your Hunter maths doesn't mention a few things;
Firstly you assume one additional attack from the multiattack feature when you often can't.
I was assuming an average of one additional attack from this feature. Sometimes you can't use it, but sometimes (a lesser number of times) you get 2, 3, or 4 additional attacks. So, lets assume that you get an additional attack 60% of the time.


I chose the brown bear / polar bear examples because they looked good together, not considering extreme optimization too much. But I realized now I should have, and discover where it leads.

Now the difficulty with calculating around the dire wolf (a sound choice) is pack tactics / knocking prone. But I'll try.

Assumptions:
You gain the benefit from Pack Tactics 75% of the time.
Advantage provides an average of +5 to a d20 roll.
A CR4 monster is an acceptable enemy (1100 (xp) * 2(encounter multiplier) * 4 (number of enemies) = 8800. This creates an encounter that is a medium-hard encounter for an 11th level party
An Orc War Chief is an acceptable CR4 target.

Crunch:
Dire Wolf:
+5 to hit, 10 damage, DC 13 Str or prone, pack tactics
Orc War Chief: AC 16, Str checks +6
Dire Wolf chance to hit, taking into account pack tactics: 9
Dire Wolf chance to hit: 65%
Chance to knock target prone / hit: 35%
Chance to knock target prone / attack: 23%
Orc War Chief chance to be knocked prone once across three attacks: 45%
Dire Wolf Average damage/round, taking into account hit: 20

Ranged Hunter at level 11:
+10 [+4(PB)+4(Dex)+2(archery)] to hit, 8.5 average damage [1d8(weapon)+4]
+Multiattack Feature (Assume one additional attack 60% of the time)
+Colossus Slayer (4.5)
Hunter average damage across attacks: 27
Hunter Average damage/round, taking into account hit: 19

Hunter:
+19 damage/round
+Defensive Tactic option

Wild Spirit:
+20 damage/round
+45% chance to knock target prone
+Temporary hp
+Wild Shape utility
+Partial Transformations
-less able to cast spells in wild shape
Conclusion: Alright, I'm convinced. This archetype offers far too much. I'll change the 11th level feature. I'll get one back in a few hours.

On a more positive note, I've worked up a workable name! I've changed the name to Wild Spirit, and changed the description of the archetype to match/explain. Let me know if it works.

Thanks for the help! If you have any suggestions for what I can change things to instead of what they are, I'd like to think on it.

zeek0
2016-05-31, 10:29 AM
I've created the 15th level feature. The feature doesn't add too much to combat (as least not in the way of damage), and is mostly utility.

Thanks to Final Hyena, especially, for critiquing my work and pushing me to change lots of things around.

If there is something off, then please let me know and I'll make adjustments.

Phawksin
2016-06-01, 11:07 AM
The 15th level feature is bomb. On sound, the inability to be surprised is going to be repeated at 18th level with Feral Senses, so you might consider changing it to something that stacks with that. Maybe a bonus on initiative rolls or some kind of other defensive advantage in the first round of combat. The other two are thematic, utilitarian and useful.

If you wanted to add more partial transformations (though I don't think you need to) you might consider a Temporary hit point bonus and/or a birdlike bonus to resist falling damage and increase jump distances.

I think the overall power is good, with the damage focus on bursting in beast mode and with a strong focus on utility to separate it from the other two. I suppose my only real question is will it keep the same number of wild shapes per day as a druid or are you reducing that amount? I think reducing it really handicaps the build, but keeping it the same as the moon druid may steal their thunder a bit.

zeek0
2016-06-01, 12:56 PM
Hmm... As always, I'm glad of your questions.

Feral Senses doesn't actually prevent you from being surprised - although I think it really should. However, I do think that having blindsight within 60 feet and the listening benefit is adequate for the feature. I'll leave it out, and put the surprised bit into my revised version of the ranger.

Thanks for your kind words.

One bit that I have difficulty with is that 'beast mode' doesn't really give additional damage. Before hit (which is less than a ranger might get), beast mode deals appreciably less damage. But I think that I am satisfied - wild shape offers a huge amount of utility and a good bit of temp hp, in addition to all the utility offered by the ranger.

Well, a druid gets 2 wild shapes per short rest. It is the same for this ranger. But I don't think this is a problem - reducing it by any appreciable amount would invalidate the feature and the subclass.

To be fair (and in retrospect), this is basically a way to have a moon-ranger instead of a moon-druid. You get all the cool wild shape transformations, but when you are in your normal form you are a guardian of the realms of men, not a mysterious wizened figure.

Appreciable differences between the two is that the Wild Spirit subclass is limited in CR, and has a vastly different form to fall back on.

I think that the partial transformations are sufficient, but if I think of a way to fit in an acrobatics/fall damage one, I'll slip it in.

Thanks!

Phawksin
2016-06-01, 01:33 PM
Feral Senses doesn't actually prevent you from being surprised - although I think it really should.

!!!

As my grandpappy would say, "well strip me naked and hide my cloths." I guess I have been looking at homebrew for so long I forgot how it actually works. I guess thats actually wrapped up in one of the UA Ranger features (Ambuscade I think). I'm glad one of us knows how to read.

Regardless I think your evaluation of your own work is spot on. This subclass has more control over their usefulness than a Hunter and less opportunity cost than the beast master. I think its solidly balanced and flavorful. 10/10 would shapeshift again.