Semi-realistic discussion on death by age in D&D

[Conradine]

In Dungeons & Dragons ( classical setting ) I got the impression that death of old age is something unrelated to physical integrity.

After all, it makes no sense that a disease-immune, perfectly healthy Druid or Monk dies as his hour comes without regard of his supernatural constitution.
Also, the explanation given about characters died of old age being unable to be resurrected is " their souls are too frail to survive the travel back to the Material Plane ".

So, on these basis, should we assume that in default D&D 3.0 / 3.5 setting, death by old age comes due the soul weakening rather than by physical decay?


Self confutation:

But then how could liches prolong their unnatural existence? Even if their bodies are animated by magic, their soul should wither as normal.

Also, characters like the Green Star Adept ( that becomes a construct ) or the Cancer Mage ( that can exist forever in disease form ) should still die of old age, even if their phisical bodies cannot age.


Confutation of confutation:

But if aging is merely a physical problem, then an high level Cleric able to restore missing limbs or even to rebuild a body from his ashes ( Resurrection ) should have no problem rebuilding an old body into a young one.

[Flickerdart]

There is an actual, physical, anthropomorphic God of Death, and robots whose only job is to fly around the universe murdering people who extend their lifespans past the natural duration.

The soul doesn't need any special properties for a person to suddenly drop dead.

[Conradine]

There is an actual, physical, anthropomorphic God of Death, and robots whose only job is to fly around the universe murdering people who extend their lifespans past the natural duration.

Nerull and Inevitables, I guess.



A specific question: let's say someone has free access to Regenerate ( Cleric / Healing 7 ).
When he gets old, he simply regrows nerves, circulatory sistem, internal organs, brain: everything that get damaged by time.

What happens?


1) He drops dead when he reach maximum age - looking perfectly young and healthy?
2) It doesn't work, the regrow parts immediately age - if yes, why ?
3) He keeps living forever?
4) Something else?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Nerull and Inevitables, I guess.

A specific question: let's say someone has free access to Regenerate ( Cleric / Healing 7 ).
When he gets old, he simply regrows nerves, circulatory sistem, internal organs, brain: everything that get damaged by time.

What happens?

1) He drops dead when he reach maximum age - looking perfectly young and healthy?
2) It doesn't work, the regrow parts immediately age - if yes, why ?
3) He keeps living forever?
4) Something else?
By the rules, sort of 1, with a side of 4 - regenerate doesn't make you look young. If you try to extend your life with copious amounts of restorative magic, you can be reasonably sure you won't die of accidents, disease, or poison. However, unlike the real world, D&D natural death is not due to any of those things. It just happens at some point. In my opinion, the mechanic is a bit weak, but it's not important in most games, so I doubt it got/needs much attention.

If you were changing the natural death mechanic: it would make more sense to keep stacking str/dex/con decreases, until the character finally reaches 0 constitution (which would also prevent resurrection) and simply dies, maybe after being paralyzed for a while. That would get you result 3, which I would prefer. I think it makes more sense, based on what spells like regenerate can do. I definitely think that 'immortality' is often overpriced, as ability, in a lot of 3.5 material. It should be a high-level ability, but not a costly one, even free at levels 21+, maybe 16+.

[Mr Adventurer]

Look up Reincarnate.

[TheIronGolem]

Also, the explanation given about characters died of old age being unable to be resurrected is " their souls are too frail to survive the travel back to the Material Plane ".

Well, the "real" reason it's this way is because the designers overvalued immortality1 as an in-game ability. It's less of a descriptive explanation of the way things are and more of a post-hoc justification for a conscious design decision. So it's not surprising that this explanation would be inconsistent with other elements of the game universe.

"Making undead for any reason is Evil Because Magic Radiation" is a similar case, though motivated more by a sense of tradition than any kind of game-design ethic.

1Of the "can't die of old age kind", not the "can't die at all" kind

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Goddamn Maruts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm). That's why.

[Necroticplague]

In order to live forever, you have to find some way to either ossify the soul's link to the body (warforged souls are ossified as such, and Elan souls are renewed by their psionic energy), or replace your soul with something else (Undead, including liches, have a connection to the NEP where there soul should be).

For your examples: Green Star Adepts ossify their soul tethers just as much as their physical body as a result of their process. Cancer Mages have a fundamentally different connection to their soul when a disease (since it has to full double-duty as their sense organ, since their brain isn't currently around), which is separate from it's connections as a living being.

To your question in the second post: number two. It doesn't say the regenerated body part is any younger than the rest of the body, so it isn't. Cut off an old man's arm, an old man's arm grows back.

[Seppo87]

In dnd world there is an actual thing called "death by old age" which is bound to happen at a prefixed time no matter how healthy the body and is decided at birth. The body has an internal countdown that makes it stop working at some point in the future and while it is usually accompanied by getting phisically weaker and fragile, is actually unrelated and will happen anyway.
Death by old age does therefore only happens to people with bodies that function normally.
Lich and warforged do not suffer from death by old age because their body is different amd has no countdown.
When this kind of death occurs, the soul that was inside the body is weakened and cannot be resurrected.

[Jack_Simth]

It's not decided at birth: Check here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age)
When a character reaches venerable age, secretly roll his or her maximum age, which is the number from the Venerable column on Table: Aging Effects plus the result of the dice roll indicated on the Maximum Age column on that table, and records the result, which the player does not know. A character who reaches his or her maximum age dies of old age at some time during the following year.(Emphasis added)

Also of note: See the spells Reincarnate and Steal Life (Book of Vile Darkness); either can be leveraged to grant what amounts to agelessness, as can the Psionic power True Mind Switch (or Astral Seed and regular Mind Switch, if you accept the 3.0 holdover in Astral Seed as being intended).

[PraxisVetli]

It's not decided at birth: Check here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age)(Emphasis added)

Also of note: See the spells Reincarnate and Steal Life (Book of Vile Darkness); either can be leveraged to grant what amounts to agelessness, as can the Psionic power True Mind Switch (or Astral Seed and regular Mind Switch, if you accept the 3.0 holdover in Astral Seed as being intended).

Seems lame that you don't know you're going to die. I get WE don't, but we're also not venerable elf wizards.

Would Foresight tell you?

[Jack_Simth]

Seems lame that you don't know you're going to die. I get WE don't, but we're also not venerable elf wizards.

Would Foresight tell you?

It might a few seconds before it happens, but not much more than that. Foresight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm) really only tells you about immediate dangers.

However, once your maximum age is rolled, you could probably work with other divinations such as Commune or Contact Other Plane to find out what it is.

[Inevitability]

Goddamn Maruts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm). That's why.

Old Farmer Jones lied in his small bedroom, surrounded by friends and family. His children were here, and their children, and even a handful of their children. Jones reflected on his life: had it truly been good?

Of course it had. He'd experienced love, anger, and everything in between. He'd seen the world, even adventured a bit back in his days. Now, it was time to let go, and leave the world to his children. The old man slowly closed his eyes. It wouldn't be long no...

Suddenly, an armored humanoid appeared and smashed an electrified fist down on the man's face, killing him instantaneously. His horrified family looked at the construct, not sure whether to run or not.

"I apologize, but this individual was fifty-four seconds late." the being rumbled before disappearing once more.

[Florian]

@Conradine:

The whole D&D cosmos uses things like Fate and Destiny quite a lot. Most peoples lives can be found written down in some books even before they are born.

Stuff like death of a person is not a physical/medical matter. The root cause of death simply is death.

[Telonius]

If Regenerate were all it took to reverse aging, no high-level character would need to take physical aging penalties. (If we're going to go on a catgirl massacre, I'd rule that damaged telomeres don't count as "ruined organs," and Regenerate can't fix mundane DNA damage).

[Psyren]

I don't think it's that the soul of an older person "becomes weaker." Rather, it becomes more attuned to its destination plane, such that when it arrives there at the end of its lifespan, it becomes nigh-impossible for it to leave. The longer a soul is in the afterlife, the more it feels like it belongs there, and after enough time passes attempts to retrieve it via resurrection magic become impossible; this window is simply instantaneous for souls that die of old age.

This explains how intelligent undead like liches (or even just immortal creatures with souls/soul-equivalents, like Elans and Warforged) can live in the mortal realm for eons without experiencing any metaphysical decay.

[Conradine]

If Regenerate were all it took to reverse aging, no high-level character would need to take physical aging penalties. (If we're going to go on a catgirl massacre, I'd rule that damaged telomeres don't count as "ruined organs," and Regenerate can't fix mundane DNA damage).


What about a "Repair DNA Damage" spell?

It would assume that a character knows what DNA is. But I could argue that an Intelligence 34 Wizard ( 15 base, + 3 venerable age, +5 level up, + 6 for Headband of Intelligence, + 5 Tome of Intellect ) could fairly easily develop modern-age lab techniques if he felt so.

[Necroticplague]

What about a "Repair DNA Damage" spell?

It would assume that a character knows what DNA is. But I could argue that an Intelligence 34 Wizard ( 15 base, + 3 venerable age, +5 level up, + 6 for Headband of Intelligence, + 5 Tome of Intellect ) could fairly easily develop modern-age lab techniques if he felt so.

Given the horrific violations of genetics that occur in the DnD universe (like all the crossbreeds that can occur from vastly distinct species), I'm not sure assuming DNA exists in DnD is a safe assumption.

[Gildedragon]

What about a "Repair DNA Damage" spell?

It would assume that a character knows what DNA is. But I could argue that an Intelligence 34 Wizard ( 15 base, + 3 venerable age, +5 level up, + 6 for Headband of Intelligence, + 5 Tome of Intellect ) could fairly easily develop modern-age lab techniques if he felt so.

The closest thing is the Steal Life spell; but that is pretty evil and is quite wasteful

[Necroticplague]

The closest thing is the Steal Life spell; but that is pretty evil and is quite wasteful

Why is it horribly evil? There's nothing stopping a person from using it on themselves for more life, and it's not very likely to kill someone even if they use it on someone else.

[Conradine]

Why is it horribly evil? There's nothing stopping a person from using it on themselves for more life, and it's not very likely to kill someone even if they use it on someone else.


Although mechanically possible, I would find it quite absurd to use that spell on yourself.

About non lethal uses, I would rule that it's possible but it would leave the target permanently crippled, with no magic or mundane ways to heal short of a major Miracle or a Wish.




Given the horrific violations of genetics that occur in the DnD universe (like all the crossbreeds that can occur from vastly distinct species), I'm not sure assuming DNA exists in DnD is a safe assumption.

Dragons, feys and outsiders can crossbreed because of magic. They bend normal laws.
Orcs, elves and humans are probably genetically related, as wolves, dogs and foxes.

Violations of genetics would happen if mundane cats and dogs could breed.

[Gildedragon]

Why is it horribly evil? There's nothing stopping a person from using it on themselves for more life, and it's not very likely to kill someone even if they use it on someone else.
Well it has the [evil] descriptor but you're right, nothing stops one from binding naberius and using it one oneself to heal oneself at no cost to anyone else.

[Jack_Simth]

The closest thing is the Steal Life spell; but that is pretty evil and is quite wasteful

The spell has the Evil tag, that's for sure.

However: If you ignore the tag, there's nonevil (not good, but not evil) ways to use it.

Here's two methods:
I do some prep work, and have a Greater Restoration spell handy.
At hire time, I make sure to let the commoner know what's coming.
I hire a human commoner-1, do some tests, make sure the hireling is in decent shape (at least 10 in each stat).
I use the Steal Life spell to deal 9 points of damage to each ability score on the human commoner 1, under the correct circumstances to youthen me for 54 weeks (if I want to increase efficiency, I loan the commoner a +6 Belt of Magnificence for the duration of the exercise, and drain 15 points from each ability score, for 90 weeks, but that doesn't impact the ethics of the matter).
I then use a the Greater Restoration spell on the commoner, fixing up all the damage (and then take the belt back, if I went that route).
I then pay the human commoner-1 ten year's worth of wages for the night of pain (an untrained hireling is 1 sp/day per the PHB, so ten years of wages works out to 365.25 gp with average leap years).
Find a nice rock.
Cast Polymorph Any Object on the rock (should be viable - same spell level and class as Steal Life) to turn it into a human for 20 minutes.
Cast Steal life on the transmuted rock under the correct conditions for youthening.



Although mechanically possible, I would find it quite absurd to use that spell on yourself.

About non lethal uses, I would rule that it's possible but it would leave the target permanently crippled, with no magic or mundane ways to heal short of a major Miracle or a Wish.That is a house rule to make it a much more evil spell.

[Necroticplague]

Although mechanically possible, I would find it quite absurd to use that spell on yourself.

About non lethal uses, I would rule that it's possible but it would leave the target permanently crippled, with no magic or mundane ways to heal short of a major Miracle or a Wish.

What's absurd about it?

Don't you mean "houserule", not rule? Rule normally implies that there's ambiguity, and you're making a decision. However, this is adding a punishment nowhere remotely implied in the rules.

[Conradine]

Well, you are right.

Thinking well, I shoud reword: in my opinion, although technically possible, using the spell on yourself is an exploit of rules because:

1- it nullifies the concept of "stealing life from others"

2- it makes true immortality cheaper in a settings that looks designed to explicitly make it hard to achieve

[Necroticplague]

Well, you are right.

Thinking well, I shoud reword: in my opinion, although technically possible, using the spell on yourself is an exploit of rules because:

1- it nullifies the concept of "stealing life from others"

2- it makes true immortality cheaper in a settings that looks designed to explicitly make it hard to achieve

1. No it doesn't. You can still do that. It doesn't nullify a concept that can still occur.

2.????????
There are at least two LA0 races, one LA0 template, a feat you can take at level 1, and a spell you can have cast on you that all make it possible incredibly easily to be immortal in the "old age doesn't get to me" way. At least this methods requires that your have to regularly maintain it, unlike simply being an Elan.

How is an exploit of the rules to use a spell very plainly to do what it says it does? That's like saying that using Fireball to damage someone is an exploit of the rule because it nullifies the concept of AC.

[Amon Winterfall]

Partly this has to be an abstraction. People in poor health don't necessarily make it to venerable in real life; deaths in what would be the Mature and Old timeframes are probably more common for the least healthy--someone with a Low CON probably should die earlier; someone with a high CON may well make it beyond 100. So perhaps there is something for estimating lifespan as something like 40 + 3X Con Score + 1d20 instead of the figures provided.

Mechanically, the immediate causes of death at advanced age would have to be treatable. If someone's heart stops in their sleep, a ring of vigor probably throws some healing. I suppose if the cause of death were mechanically a Death Effect (such as a giant stroke), you'd need Death Ward. These shorts of measures might add a few years to someone's life, but functionally mean that they're on life support. Do the Maruts show up at this point? They are explicitly described as ignoring even a character getting raised and focusing on larger issues. I doubt it.

Compared to the other magical effects in the game, removing aging doesn't seem particularly powerful. I myself use the Reincarnate spell as a yardstick for the sort of power required to drop an age category, which means that most midlevel guys and above can simply pay for highly expensive potions instead of dying. These are also the same sorts of people that could wreck a Marut, although the Maruts themselves ARE probably targetting the drug company.

Finally, the mythical Philosopher's stone is actually supposed to grant immortality instead of simply giving a True Rez. There would probably be a class of items that should extend lifespan or make it last forever.

[Sliver]

Reincarnate creates a new young adult body. So assuming you reincarnated before rolling your maximum age, you can now live longer than otherwise, right? So death of old age depends on your body, right? If you are reincarnated into an elf, you will gain more years, right?

So Reincarnate can patch up a soul of a creature that died of anything except old age? It clearly extends your life, but there seems to be a point where it's too late. You can't reheat the soul and serve it into a new body.

What happens if you reach venerable age, roll for your maximum age and then get reincarnated for some reason? Does that maximum age carry to your new body, regardless of the actual body? Would a venerable human being reincarnated into an elf instantly die because he is well past his maximum age, even though the body is young, or would he never die because he passed the age in which he was supposed to die?

[Conradine]

I was thinking...

do you remember Automatons from Monster Manual 2?
Unintelligent, clockwork-like constructs different from golems because they are animated by shadow magic instead of elemental spirits.

How about replacing heart and internal organs with automaton-like devices?

[Necroticplague]

I was thinking...

do you remember Automatons from Monster Manual 2?
Unintelligent, clockwork-like constructs different from golems because they are animated by shadow magic instead of elemental spirits.

How about replacing heart and internal organs with automaton-like devices?

Given how normal construct grafts don't do jack to increase your lifespan, I'm inclined to think this would do nothing.

[Inevitability]

Given how normal construct grafts don't do jack to increase your lifespan, I'm inclined to think this would do nothing.

Normal construct grafts give you extra limbs or shoulder cannons, though. Neither of these tend to improve cardiovascular health.

Similar fluff-wise is the half-golem template. It can turn you immortal (by making you a construct) but also removes your intelligence and personality when it does so. Still, by abusing Magic Jar you may be able to perform the procedure while a weak-willed commoner soul occupies the construct body, then move back in once he's turned evil.

[Necroticplague]

Normal construct grafts give you extra limbs or shoulder cannons, though. Neither of these tend to improve cardiovascular health.

Heart of Steel construct graft, however, does replace your internals with warforged bits, and doesn't say anything about extending your lifespan (merely gives you some useful immunities in exchange for reduced effect of healing).

And in terms of improving cardio, Heavy Legs does that (makes you not take penalties for fatigue), and still doesn't extend your lifespan.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Okay, let's smite a few more catgirls*

Check out this article (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere). There's an inborn limit to how many times a cell can divide in higher level organisms. Even if you're otherwise the picture of health, eventually systems become compromised by cellular senescence and collapse, killing the organism. Regeneration, if you want to come up with a semi-scientific explanation for it, would -shorten- a creature's lifespan, not extend it.

Of course, ultimately, higher order sciences aren't applicable to D&D universes anyway. If you look at chemistry, biology, certain aspects of physics, ecology, or any of a host of others, you find holes; sometimes very obvious, notable holes (looking at you cold energy and fire elementals). The game's reallity is based on the philosophically based precursors to the sciences; alchemy, the four primal elemants, etc. You need to look to mythology and mysticism to figure out how this world works, not the physical sciences.

*I actually like catgirls. I just like spreading knowledge more. :smalltongue: