What I dont get about the EoFaF

[Atheist_Cleric]

When Belkar first encountered his future skull/wand/chamber pot, it threatened that it could "shoot fire and fear beams from its magical eye gems". Now if it was the gems, not the skull itself, that had the power, why didnt he just take the gems? When Haley smashed the skull, you can see the two gems lying in the bits of skull. Sure he wouldnt be able to crap in it anymore, but he'd have no danger of rebellion and two gems that shot fear and fireballs.

[Mystyco]

well, haley was more for the "i'm out of here" while belkar literally was going to fight vs the hoggoblins...non of them either remembered/had time to take up the gems (or they simply thought those wouldn't work alone)

well, they probably won't get wasted anyway

[Dunamin]

It's not just the gems in and of themselves that grant the abilities, it's the EoFaF as a creature. I would think the gems are still usable for the creation of a new EoFaF, though.

[Demented]

Not to mention, Belkar would be the one technically doing lethal damage with the gems... Though, there's still such a badass factor that it would've been worth it.

Maybe we can turn Belkar into an EoFaF....

[Max_Sinister]

Strange that Haley doesn't use the opportunity to take said gems. Is she afraid of magical components or such?

[Social_Outcast]

Strange that Haley doesn't use the opportunity to take said gems. Is she afraid of magical components or such?

I think the Question is: what is she more afraid of? Magical Components, or a Horde of Hobgoblins renewing their Rota to try and kill her :tongue:

[Imrahil]

I had originally posted the original part about the gems yesterday:


Actually, the EoFaF is found in the Book of Vile Darkness, page 177. It's description reads as follows:

"Draped in a ragged, hooded cloak, an eye of fear and flame is a skeletal figure with a gem set into each eye socket - one red and one black. Each gem is worth 2,000 gp but has no magical qualities once the eye of fear and flame is destroyed."

This presumably also applies to prying out the gems while the EoFaF is still alive, and the idea itself stretches the rules even more than we've seen in the comic. Rich probably wouldn't go too far with that idea just to keep a small running gag alive. Even if this was not the case, Belkar probably couldn't use them anyways, since he wouldn't know how to activate them (though, as I said, that idea is still a bit silly). Hope this helps to answer your questions.


It's not just the gems in and of themselves that grant the abilities, it's the EoFaF as a creature. I would think the gems are still usable for the creation of a new EoFaF, though.

Actually, one wouldn't need the gems to create the EoFaF, since they are inherently created with the gems in place.

[Dunamin]

Actually, one wouldn't need the gems to create the EoFaF, since they are inherently created with the gems in place.
I know of no rules governing creation of an EoFaF, but I assume the creator would need to supply the two 2000 gp gems.

Conventional undead creation spells such as Animate Dead and Create Undead requires gems, and it would seem logical for there to be some sort of price to pay (gp value, XP, or otherwise), to prevent a money-making exploit. :smallbiggrin:

[Imrahil]

I know of no rules governing creation of an EoFaF, but I assume the creator would need to supply the two 2000 gp gems.

Conventional undead creation spells such as Animate Dead and Create Undead requires gems, and it would seem logical for there to be some sort of price to pay (gp value, XP, or otherwise), to prevent a money-making exploit. :smallbiggrin:

True this may be, but nowhere in the template laid out in the Book of Vile Darkness does it mention this fact, and I'm not one to always take things for granted. The only thing it says about creation is that "The eye of fear and flame is an undead creature created by the gods of chaos and evil to spread destruction and darkness. Through their malevolent divine power, they take the dead soul of a chaotic madman and give him an animated skeletal form with which to do their will."

Outside of that, we're just going into speculation, though I should not say you're wrong outright. It just seem like gods of chaos and evil would not be scrounging around to find their 2,000 gp gems just to create a specific creature of darkness.

[Dunamin]

Game-design-wise, I think the EoFaF was never meant to be created via spells, what with a listed gp price for cashing in its remains, but no rules governing the game mechanics for its creation.

I guess the best way to translate all this into this particular OOTS scenario, is to assume that Redcloak didn't cast a spell, but rather requested an unholy favor from his god the Dark One - the result being the EoFaF.

[Imrahil]

Now that's something we can both get behind.

I apologize if I was a little presumptuous before. I just had this exchange going through my head:
"So, malevolent gods of chaos, what have you got to show for us today?"
"Well, malevolent gods of evil, I call this new creation an 'eye of fear and flame'. It can both terrify people and destroy them outright with its eyes."
"Ooh, quite nice. We shall add this to our armies of darkness right away!"
"Excellent. Now, there's just the matter of digging up the gems needed to pay for its creation."
"Wait, what? Why would you create a creature who needed such a specific component to create them? It just complicates the entire creation process, let alone the expenditures it will run us..."
"Um...I'm chaotic?"
"{grumble} Stupid chaos, always shafting the evil gods and leaving us with the bills for all their little creations {grumble}."

[Dunamin]

No need for apologies, its all very valid speculation. :smallsmile:

Still, to put your example conversation into perspective, a simple Animate Dead spell do require valuable material components, just like most other spells that permanently create creatures. Gods create those as well, but I don't think there is any need to concern oneself with whether they have the cash/XP/divine energy/what-have-you to spare.

[rosebud]

Arg. What a waste of 40% or 80% of the component price needs of Roy's Resurrection.

[Atheist_Cleric]

Ok, so having the gems still wouldnt give Belkar the potential ability to have fireballs and fear beams. But still, two 2000gp each gems isnt too bad. Shoulda grabbed them anyway. Or Haley, she's like the personification of lust for shinies.

[Roderick_BR]

And remember that Haley didn't knew he had gems for eyes, as it told only Belkar, and when it was smashed, she didn't look to see if there had anything valuable, and Belkar couldn't care less for gems.

[David Argall]

I would guess Haley grabbed the gems off camera, or we will have a scene of a grieving Haley when she finds out what those gems she left behind were worth.

[BardicLasher]

I would assume that, like with most undead, the gems needed to create it become burnt out shells either during the casting or when it's destroyed. It's not like you can kill a skeleton and take back the 50 GP of black onyx or Disjunction a phylactery and sell it for anything close to the 70,000 GP in costs.

[Iskandar]

I'd have ot echo this. I swear I read that the gems of an EoFaF were pretty much worthless once the EoFaF was destroyed... I'll have to go diving througn my MMs again...

[Dunamin]

I would assume that, like with most undead, the gems needed to create it become burnt out shells either during the casting or when it's destroyed. It's not like you can kill a skeleton and take back the 50 GP of black onyx or Disjunction a phylactery and sell it for anything close to the 70,000 GP in costs.

I'd have ot echo this. I swear I read that the gems of an EoFaF were pretty much worthless once the EoFaF was destroyed... I'll have to go diving througn my MMs again...
The gems are not worthless after the EoFaF is defeated, despite having lost their magical properties - they are explicitly stated as the treasure reward in the EoFaF entry in the sourcebook (Book of Vile Darkness).

And a phylactery costs 120,000 gp, not 70,000 gp, in addition to XP costs.

[Charity322]

I guess the best way to translate all this into this particular OOTS scenario, is to assume that Redcloak didn't cast a spell, but rather requested an unholy favor from his god the Dark One - the result being the EoFaF.

Hmm, considering what he got I guess his god didn't love him that much after all. :smallbiggrin:

Actually an EoFaF is a strange undead choice for Redcloak, seeing as he's LE. Are there that few undead that fit his requirements?

[Gol_Stoan]

Redcloak needed undead that he could use as Xykon doubles. "Skeletal and free-willed" as he put it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html).

[Kresalak]

Arg. What a waste of 40% or 80% of the component price needs of Roy's Resurrection.

Resurection needs diamonds.

[EyethatBinds]

So suddenly the gods cannot foot the bill for an undead minion? Have you folk ever taken a look at what the gods out of the Deities and Demigods book can do? Garl Glittergold [a gnome deity] could create 20 of these gems in one round as a free action. I sincerely doubt that any god would be hindered by the need for material components.
Also while the BoVD doesn't say how to make a EoFaF it is an undead and create greater undead is a good catch-all spell for making evil mockeries of life. Since this creating undead is mostly a spellcaster's, and by extension a cleric's job, it could be gleaned that a cleric of a chaotic evil deity could simply cast a spell to create such a monster. Supplying materials would then be the worshiper's job.

Also when did Redcloak become lawful? What possible action has he done that is even similar? Deciding to be a good leader isn't a lawful action, nor is risking yourself so your minions don't die. They really don't have specific alignment registers on them nor would a single lawful action give Redcloak a sudden alignment shift. Most goblins are chaotic evil and while the Dark One doesn't really get spoken of much a goblin deity would most likely follow the tendencies of the race. Otherwise the deity would risk alienating some of it's worshipers.

[Imrahil]

So suddenly the gods cannot foot the bill for an undead minion? Have you folk ever taken a look at what the gods out of the Deities and Demigods book can do? Garl Glittergold [a gnome deity] could create 20 of these gems in one round as a free action. I sincerely doubt that any god would be hindered by the need for material components.
Also while the BoVD doesn't say how to make a EoFaF it is an undead and create greater undead is a good catch-all spell for making evil mockeries of life. Since this creating undead is mostly a spellcaster's, and by extension a cleric's job, it could be gleaned that a cleric of a chaotic evil deity could simply cast a spell to create such a monster. Supplying materials would then be the worshiper's job.

Oh geez, I've created a monster. Sometimes, I should just stick to supplying information from my books and skip my own (sometimes futile) attempts at humour. And now, a blanket statement from my lawyers to clear up any confusion:

"The statements made by Imrahil in regards to deities and material component costs were his own attempts to be funny. The conversation between the gods of evil and chaos stemmed from a real life in-joke made at a gaming session, and not from confusion of game mechanics. Imrahil has been playing D&D for years, and is quite clear on how game mechanics work. And now, some more *humour* from our client..."

In closing, let me just say this, in the most cantankerous old-timey voice I can muster...Of course I've read Deities and Demigods, boy. I've got over a thousand documents {that is actually true}, and I've read them all...FIVE TIMES!!!{not actually true} I've been slaying the minions of evil since before you knew what a d20 even was!

[Setra]

Resurection needs diamonds.
Cash is cash.

2000 gp per gem, sell them both and suddenly you need a bit less cash to afford your diamond.

[factotum]

Also when did Redcloak become lawful? What possible action has he done that is even similar? Deciding to be a good leader isn't a lawful action, nor is risking yourself so your minions don't die.

He's always been Lawful. His meticulous attention to detail and his long-term planning easily show him to be different to the Chaotic, live for the day, Xykon. It would be more impressive if you can come up with any long sequence during the comic where he's actually acted Chaotically.

[Setra]

It would be more impressive if you can come up with any long sequence during the comic where he's actually acted Chaotically.
How about when he just dismissed Tsukiko? That seemed rather chaotic.

Though I see him as Lawful.

[factotum]

I said "long" sequence--one strip doesn't count. :smallwink:

In any case, it is perfectly possible to be Lawful and still have an irrational (or maybe rational--haven't read SoD!) hatred for a particular species or group. Redcloak left Tsukiko to die because she's human, and because he knew Xykon would never remember her anyway so he was safe from any backlash.

[EyethatBinds]

I think following Xykon for any length of time is a chaotic act. But you could also look at the way he just ignored the fact that Xykon led thousands of his people to their deaths in with a fairly half baked plan without bothering to come up with one of his own. Or possibly thinking the way he suddenly went from sending squads of hobgoblins to their deaths to risking his life for to save a few of their lives. Or possibly considering that he most probably seeks to undo all of creation by destroying the gates that keep the snarl in place.
The last part is just speculation, but it would explain why someone so good at planning accidently started a forest on fire. Though it is possible Redcloak is simply neutral evil, but I like to think of him as chaotic because I read way too much into his motivations and like to think that a chaotic person can make rational plans too.

[Porthos]

You know, it's funny, but when Haley is looting stuff right and left, it's used as fodder for the "OMG Haley is teh CN nots Good" brigade. But, and after she's had a life changing experience, she starts acting like the Chaotic Good person she is supposed to be (more concerned about her friends saftey than money), all of a sudden it's used as "OMGs! Whats wrong with teh Haley! Why isn't she looting?"

She gets criticized for looting and she gets criticized for not looting. Poor girl can't win, it seems. :smalltongue:

Maybe, just maybe, her experiences with losing her voice (and having her affections for Elan be reciprocated) have changed her outlook on life a little. Oh I'm sure that she still wants to accumulate as much loot as possible (coz she loves money - see Comic #402) and she still needs a hefty chunk of change to free her father. However, I think strips like this one show that she is no longer going to endanger party members just to get some money. :smallsmile:

I doubt Haley pre-Apahsia would be making the same choices that we saw Haley make in #469. :smallwink:

[Kandarin]

Also when did Redcloak become lawful? What possible action has he done that is even similar? Deciding to be a good leader isn't a lawful action, nor is risking yourself so your minions don't die. They really don't have specific alignment registers on them nor would a single lawful action give Redcloak a sudden alignment shift. Most goblins are chaotic evil and while the Dark One doesn't really get spoken of much a goblin deity would most likely follow the tendencies of the race. Otherwise the deity would risk alienating some of it's worshipers.

If Redcloak's comments about his role ("ALL the goblin people!") are anything to go by, the Dark One is a general goblin racial deity, representing the race as a whole. Goblins are CE, to be sure, but hobgoblins are strongly LE. The Dark One is a god of both. This leads me to believe that the Dark One is Neutral Evil- otherwise he would shun one goblin subspecies or the other.

[Dunamin]

Goblins are CE, to be sure, but hobgoblins are strongly LE.
Huh? Goblins are generally Neutral Evil, not Chaotic.