Lowest level class that can take down level 20 Fighter

[NewDM]

What's the lowest level class that can reliably take down a level 20 fighter more than 50% of the time?

Please include builds.

I'd say a level 11 Wizard Blade Singer might stand a chance. I'll come back and post an updated build from the other thread.

[MaxWilson]

What's the lowest level class that can reliably take down a level 20 fighter more than 50% of the time?

Please include builds.

I'd say a level 11 Wizard Blade Singer might stand a chance. I'll come back and post an updated build from the other thread.

I'd vote for Rogue 2/Shadow Monk 6 using Pass Without Trace. Fighter will have to Ready actions to get a shot back at the monk most of the time, and the monk's Missile Catch will protect against the majority of that damage.

[Dimolyth]

I'd vote for Rogue 2/Shadow Monk 6 using Pass Without Trace. Fighter will have to Ready actions to get a shot back at the monk most of the time, and the monk's Missile Catch will protect against the majority of that damage.

I hesitate about that... How many hits from the fighter would bring rogue/monk below 0 hp? If the fighter readies action against approuch - he would get 1 attack per round with 1d8+5 (as row minimum) damage per hit (average 9). And against 18 AC 20th level fighter would get 70% hit chance (once again, as row minimum). Rogue/Monk gets only 8d8 HD, assuming +2 Con that would result 56 hitpoints. That means, that fighter will kill rogue/monk in 9 rounds, if he only get a ready action to attack.

What is damage output of rogue/monk per round? That depends on its actions: with nice preset, that could be extra attack+sneak attack+flurry of blows. One attack deals average 7.5 damage. Against 20 AC of fighter (yeah, I`m counting sword&board in plate) rogue/monk has 45% hit chance. That means 17 damage per round. Against 20d10 HD (assuming +3 Con) that will take more than 11 rounds for rogue/monk to take down the fighter.

I haven`t even mentioned feats, fighting styles, archetype features, action surges, special attacks (grapple/shove), magic items or anything else.
Fighter is strictly better only by proficiency bonus, armor proficiency and his HD.

[hymer]

@ Dimolyth: I think you're forgetting Missile Deflection, which reduces the fighter's damage per hit with, what? 1dX+monk level+wis bonus?

[Cybren]

Dex bonus but yes

[Gwendol]

What's the lowest level class that can reliably take down a level 20 fighter more than 50% of the time?

Please include builds.

I'd say a level 11 Wizard Blade Singer might stand a chance. I'll come back and post an updated build from the other thread.

What kind of fighter?

[Dimolyth]

@ Dimolyth: I think you're forgetting Missile Deflection, which reduces the fighter's damage per hit with, what? 1dX+monk level+wis bonus?

It works only against weapon ranged attack. If monk whants to kick the fighter with flurry - he will approach at mellee range. There, fighter can ready action- to use his both reaction and action to make one single attack.
And that is the most unfortunate scenario for the fighter - I naven`t count all feat/archetypefeatures/class features support that actually means 20th level fighter.

What about Sentinel feat? Eldritch Knight spell support? Action Surge to lock down the rogue/monk and then making regular four attacks?

[Dimolyth]

What kind of fighter?

This is really a question. Because a grappler battlemaster is very different from an eldritch knight archer or glaive waving champion.

[MaxWilson]

@ Dimolyth: I think you're forgetting Missile Deflection, which reduces the fighter's damage per hit with, what? 1dX+monk level+wis bonus?

Yes. The Fighter can inflict damage only when he snipes with Sharpshooter and rolls well on damage, or if he uses cantrips (Fire Bolt) which Deflect Missile does not help with. But Fire Bolt has only a 120' range, so if the fighter starts launching Fire Bolts, the monk can plink away from 200' or 300' instead. That costs the monk his sneak attack damage but it is worth it.

The monk will try to impose disadvantage on the fighter's return shot, even if the monk has to take his own first shot prone to do so. There will be a certain amount of counterplay there, depending on whether the players are allowed to know what each other's readied actions + trigger are. The monk may attempt to use Minor Illusion to trigger the fighter's readied action and/or to run the fighter out of ammunition.

The monk will save his ki mostly for Pass Without Trace or an emergency Dodge/Flurry of Blows/Stunning Strike if something unforeseen happens. Darkness might be useful depending upon house rules and environment--only if there is no house rule making it bidirectionally opaque and there is enough total cover around to risk dropping Pass Without Trace.

The monk also doesn't have to attack every round, he can ghost in and out and choose his timing, depending on terrain and what the fighter is doing. One of his goals is to paralyze the fighter's decision-making process to the point where the fighter concludes that everything is useless and he really does just take out his bow and slug it out with the monk. But to get to that point he will probably have to go through iterations with the monk of play/counterplay, and the monk can't make any mistakes while that happens or he will be dead. E.g. if the monk fails a stealth check while not behind total cover, the fighter will annihilate him.

Still, I can't imagine any class doing asymmetric warfare (instead of a battle of HP vs. AC, it's basically a battle of Stealth vs. Perception, with Pass Without Trace on the monk's side) in this scenario better than a Rogue/Monk. I'll be glad to be proved wrong.

======================================


It works only against weapon ranged attack. If monk whants to kick the fighter with flurry - he will approach at mellee range. There, fighter can ready action- to use his both reaction and action to make one single attack.
And that is the most unfortunate scenario for the fighter - I naven`t count all feat/archetypefeatures/class features support that actually means 20th level fighter.

What about Sentinel feat? Eldritch Knight spell support? Action Surge to lock down the rogue/monk and then making regular four attacks?

Why would the monk do that?

If you need explicit clarification: yes, this is a ranged build. That's why I said the monk will use Missile Catch (which is actually named Deflect Missiles, my bad) against the fighter's "return shot." Engaging in melee with the fighter would be suicidal.

You can't Ready an Action Surge BTW. It works only on your turn.

[Giant2005]

Ugh.
Aren't we bored of these threads yet? What is this, the third one?

[Oramac]

What kind of fighter?

Also, what is the terrain? Both answers will make a massive difference in the fight.

EDIT: If I can choose the location, a 7th level Divination Wizard could do it easily.

I choose to fight on an airship flying several hundred feet in the air. Use a high portent roll for my initiative (or a low roll to force the fighter to go last). Then cast Polymorph on the fighter, force a failed save with Portent, and push him over the edge to fall to the ground. Done.

See? Location is paramount.

[Sir cryosin]

First off we need more information.
1. What are the fighters stats
2. What feats does he have
3. What weapons does he carry
4. What archtype is he
5. What does the battle field look like
6. There are so many different factors that come in play.
One build might beat a 20 lv fighter but a different build can be that same fighter. But if the fighter had a different set up and a new build could come in and beat him.

Like you set up a s&b fighter you go battle master.
You take feats alert, shield master, mobile, and Sentinel. And there fighting style is protection. He carry longsword shield and 25 javelins. His opponent just needs to keep out of his range.

[Fighting_Ferret]

These threads seem like a good exercise for the play by post threads... just create the scenario as a 1 vs 1 arena fight and list the level 20 fighter you as the DM will control... let anyone who wants to challenge you create their build, then you can play it out in a mock scenario.

[Dimolyth]

Yes. The Fighter can inflict damage only when he snipes with Sharpshooter and rolls well on damage, or if he uses cantrips (Fire Bolt) which Deflect Missile does not help with. But Fire Bolt has only a 120' range, so if the fighter starts launching Fire Bolts, the monk can plink away from 200' or 300' instead. That costs the monk his sneak attack damage but it is worth it.

The monk will try to impose disadvantage on the fighter's return shot, even if the monk has to take his own first shot prone to do so. There will be a certain amount of counterplay there, depending on whether the players are allowed to know what each other's readied actions + trigger are. The monk may attempt to use Minor Illusion to trigger the fighter's readied action and/or to run the fighter out of ammunition.

The monk will save his ki mostly for Pass Without Trace or an emergency Dodge/Flurry of Blows/Stunning Strike if something unforeseen happens. Darkness might be useful depending upon house rules and environment--only if there is no house rule making it bidirectionally opaque and there is enough total cover around to risk dropping Pass Without Trace.

The monk also doesn't have to attack every round, he can ghost in and out and choose his timing, depending on terrain and what the fighter is doing. One of his goals is to paralyze the fighter's decision-making process to the point where the fighter concludes that everything is useless and he really does just take out his bow and slug it out with the monk. But to get to that point he will probably have to go through iterations with the monk of play/counterplay, and the monk can't make any mistakes while that happens or he will be dead. E.g. if the monk fails a stealth check while not behind total cover, the fighter will annihilate him.

Still, I can't imagine any class doing asymmetric warfare (instead of a battle of HP vs. AC, it's basically a battle of Stealth vs. Perception, with Pass Without Trace on the monk's side) in this scenario better than a Rogue/Monk. I'll be glad to be proved wrong.

======================================



Why would the monk do that?

If you need explicit clarification: yes, this is a ranged build. That's why I said the monk will use Missile Catch (which is actually named Deflect Missiles, my bad) against the fighter's "return shot." Engaging in melee with the fighter would be suicidal.

You can't Ready an Action Surge BTW. It works only on your turn.


Ok, so the rogue/monk is basically "stealth ranged build", and the issue of fighter is just "he cannot see me". That does means, that monk`s damage is plain 2 attacks with longbow, and maybe third attack from deflect arrow (if he will use his ki for it). All my point about ready action thing was against "stealthy hit&run" tactics - which uses stealth/mobility/large number of attacks/teleportation, sneak attacking etc from multiclass.
Ranged build will get average 12 damage per round. Against a 180 hitpoints fighter that means 15 rounds.

The problem of deflect missile is that it costs reaction against one ranged attack. The fighter has 4. that means 3 attacks with 1d8+5 (yeah, still not counting feats/archetype/fighting style/class features) - so, that is about 2 rounds of ruined stealth checks, before monk/rogue will die. In reality - the fighter will use action surge to get rid off the rogue/monk in 1 round.

So, if the rogue/monk doesn`t make mistakes, he has to win 15 rounds in a row of stealth vs perception contest. With his total +20 vs fighters` +8. For a single roll, rogue/monk has 80% of success. For 15 consistent rolls - it is 3,5% chances of success.

All what the fighter needs - is proficiency bonus, 20d10 HD, extra attack and action surge class features, and proficiency in (well, "the most important in the entire game") perception skill.
Still haven`t been using neither feats nor archetype features. Well, even simple Second Wind drops the chances of the rogue/monk to 1,8%.

[Gizmogidget]

How well is this fighter getting played, I once saw a 6th level shadow monk utterly dominate an 11th level caster simple because the player was extremely good.

[bid]

I'd say a level 11 Wizard Blade Singer might stand a chance. I'll come back and post an updated build from the other thread.
I thought the other thread was pretty conclusive the wizard would die on the first round more than 80% of the time.

I hope it's not just a rehash of the locked thread.

[MaxWilson]

The problem of deflect missile is that it costs reaction against one ranged attack.

Not if he's having to Ready an attack ("I shoot back whenever the monk shoots at me"). Extra Attack and Action Surge do not work with readied attacks, so the fighter gets only one return shot (by RAW at least--I have houseruled differently at my table).

And yes, if the Rogue/Monk ever loses his Stealth contest, the fighter will indeed annihilate him. I already said that in my last post. The monk has +22ish to Stealth; the fighter probably has around +7 to Wisdom. So the Monk had best spend a feat on Lucky to minimize the chances of blowing a stealth roll low enough for the fighter to potentially see him.

Also, the way the DM adjudicates perception contests, and the terrain they're in, will make a big difference. If the monk can get light obscurement his odds improve.

[Dimolyth]

Not if he's having to Ready an attack ("I shoot back whenever the monk shoots at me"). Extra Attack and Action Surge do not work with readied attacks, so the fighter gets only one return shot (by RAW at least--I have houseruled differently at my table).

Ready Action is the way to the fighter to reach hyper-mobile hit&run mellee skirmisher. On fighter`s turn against ranged combatant - we are thinking about ranged fighter. Once the monk/rogue fails his stealth - he is dead. Because if a fighter with bow sees the target, he will make his damn 8 attacks against it.

To beat hitpoints of fighter, monk/rogue has to win his stealth for 15 rounds minimum in a row. 18 rounds, if the fighter uses second wind. +30 additional rounds, if the chosen fighter has champion archetype, or +11 rounds, if eldritch knight just spams "shield" spell (or +20 rounds from blink spell).

[smcmike]

Also, what is the terrain? Both answers will make a massive difference in the fight.

EDIT: If I can choose the location, a 7th level Divination Wizard could do it easily.

I choose to fight on an airship flying several hundred feet in the air. Use a high portent roll for my initiative (or a low roll to force the fighter to go last). Then cast Polymorph on the fighter, force a failed save with Portent, and push him over the edge to fall to the ground. Done.

See? Location is paramount.

Um, you can't force a failed save on a fighter.

[smcmike]

Also, quick question about pass without a trace. I'm sure I'm starting up an old argument about stealth rules, but it's not at all clear to me that you could use this spell to hide in any and all situations. Is there some consensus on this?

[Oramac]

Um, you can't force a failed save on a fighter.

Sure you can. Let's amend my original post.

Assume I roll two low Portents (say, a 2 and a 6).

Cast Polymorph.

Use the 6 Portent.

Fighter declares use of Indomitable.

Use the 2 Portent.

Fighter failed the save.

[MaxWilson]

Ready Action is the way to the fighter to reach hyper-mobile hit&run mellee skirmisher. On fighter`s turn against ranged combatant - we are thinking about ranged fighter. Once the monk/rogue fails his stealth - he is dead. Because if a fighter with bow sees the target, he will make his ---- 8 attacks against it.

To beat hitpoints of fighter, monk/rogue has to win his stealth for 15 rounds minimum in a row. 18 rounds, if the fighter uses second wind. +30 additional rounds, if the chosen fighter has champion archetype, or +11 rounds, if eldritch knight just spams "shield" spell (or +20 rounds from blink spell).

Yes, he does have to win stealth a lot. And I think he can. Let's give this a shot, the monk hiding every round after shooting, the fighter using his action to search for the monk:

1.) 18 monk rolls: d20+22
25,25,25,39,23,41,38,37,24,38,35,35,25,35,26,29,29 ,29

2.) 18 Fighter rolls: d20+7
9,8,26,8,10,25,13,11,15,27,17,22,23,23,22,8,8,19

There's a failure on round 3 that would have resulted in the fighter getting to Action Surge for 4 attacks (plus maybe a bonus action attack from Crossbow Expert). If the monk has AC 17, and he's lying prone, the fighter has (avg.5.d20d+13?17:d6+5=30.75 average damage) without headshotting, or (avg.5.d20d+8?17:d6+15=33.34 average damage) with headshotting, before you count the monk's Deflect Missiles. If the monk isn't lying prone then the fighter can achieve (avg.5.d20+8?17:d6+15=56.38) damage before Deflect Missiles kicks in. Either way, if the monk is Lucky he can probably afford to fail one stealth check without losing.

-Max

[smcmike]

Sure you can. Let's amend my original post.

Assume I roll two low Portents (say, a 2 and a 6).

Cast Polymorph.

Use the 6 Portent.

Fighter declares use of Indomitable.

Use the 2 Portent.

Fighter failed the save.

You can only use Portent once per turn.

Further, even if the fighter fails the save, you can't kill him with fall damage.

[Demonslayer666]

Level 0 barmaid with 18 Charisma.

[Mith]

Level 0 barmaid with 18 Charisma.

That would only take him down for the night. And only if he willingly failed his grapple check to get pinned.

[Kellendros95]

Elf Wizard-5/Monk-5
Cast Fly, be just 610 feet above fighter, each turn fly 10 feet down, may be use shield and deflect missiles against fighter's ready action, make 2 attacks with longbow and fly 10 feet up. Use War Caster, Lucky and may be Portent for concentration checks. Eldrich Knight may have fly too, but I don't know what champion and battlemaster can do in this situation.

[JoeJ]

Elf Wizard-5/Monk-5
Cast Fly, be just 610 feet above fighter, each turn fly 10 feet down, may be use shield and deflect missiles against fighter's ready action, make 2 attacks with longbow and fly 10 feet up. Use War Caster, Lucky and may be Portent for concentration checks. Eldrich Knight may have fly too, but I don't know what champion and battlemaster can do in this situation.

A battlemaster or champion can go inside and wait for either your Fly spell to end or you to run out of arrows.

[RickAllison]

Elf Wizard-5/Monk-5
Cast Fly, be just 610 feet above fighter, each turn fly 10 feet down, may be use shield and deflect missiles against fighter's ready action, make 2 attacks with longbow and fly 10 feet up. Use War Caster, Lucky and may be Portent for concentration checks. Eldrich Knight may have fly too, but I don't know what champion and battlemaster can do in this situation.

What are your ability scores for this build? As it stands, you are making two attacks with disadvantage against at least 17 AC. Both of your ASIs went to feats, so your AC is at most 16 and your attack at +7 to-hit. That gives you a 30% chance to hit with the disadvantage. And that leaves you with only +1 to your Con.

[krugaan]

That would only take him down for the night. And only if he willingly failed his grapple check to get pinned.

Barmaid: I cast demand child support.
DM: make a ... uh ... charisma save.
Fighter: damnit.

[JoeJ]

What are your ability scores for this build? As it stands, you are making two attacks with disadvantage against at least 17 AC. Both of your ASIs went to feats, so your AC is at most 16 and your attack at +7 to-hit. That gives you a 30% chance to hit with the disadvantage. And that leaves you with only +1 to your Con.

I don't see a build for the fighter either, but if it's any kind of archery build they should have a +13 to return fire, and no disadvantage. A Battlemaster could use Precision Attack to add an additional d12 to the roll, but probably won't need to.

A melee build won't do nearly as well, obviously, and in that case Precision Attack might make a real difference.

[dejarnjc]

Yes, he does have to win stealth a lot. And I think he can. Let's give this a shot, the monk hiding every round after shooting, the fighter using his action to search for the monk:

1.) 18 monk rolls: d20+22
25,25,25,39,23,41,38,37,24,38,35,35,25,35,26,29,29 ,29

2.) 18 Fighter rolls: d20+7
9,8,26,8,10,25,13,11,15,27,17,22,23,23,22,8,8,19

There's a failure on round 3 that would have resulted in the fighter getting to Action Surge for 4 attacks (plus maybe a bonus action attack from Crossbow Expert). If the monk has AC 17, and he's lying prone, the fighter has (avg.5.d20d+13?17:d6+5=30.75 average damage) without headshotting, or (avg.5.d20d+8?17:d6+15=33.34 average damage) with headshotting, before you count the monk's Deflect Missiles. If the monk isn't lying prone then the fighter can achieve (avg.5.d20+8?17:d6+15=56.38) damage before Deflect Missiles kicks in. Either way, if the monk is Lucky he can probably afford to fail one stealth check without losing.

-Max

What in the world kind of terrain are you imagining for this fight? You can't stay hidden if you're in plain sight no matter what the roll. I'm having trouble imagining a terrain that #1 provides cover for the monk/rogue to consistently have stealth and #2 is expansive enough that the fighter can't just get full cover and force the monk/rogue into plain sight.

You can have a stealth roll of a 1000 but it won't help you if you're 30 feet away from a guy in the middle of a football field.

[MaxWilson]

What in the world kind of terrain are you imagining for this fight? You can't stay hidden if you're in plain sight no matter what the roll. I'm having trouble imagining a terrain that #1 provides cover for the monk/rogue to consistently have stealth and #2 is expansive enough that the fighter can't just get full cover and force the monk/rogue into plain sight.

I've said multiple times in this thread that much depends upon DM rulings (esp. for Stealth), terrain, and environment--but for the sake of argument, let's say it's taking place in an old-growth forest with lots of light obscurement interspersed with areas of total cover, and the Rogue/Monk is a Wood Elf. That terrain is neither implausbile for an encounter nor too complicated for an Internet thread.

If you don't like that scenario then it can take place anywhere outdoors at night.


You can have a stealth roll of a 1000 but it won't help you if you're 30 feet away from a guy in the middle of a football field.

Naturally.

[RickAllison]

I don't see a build for the fighter either, but if it's any kind of archery build they should have a +13 to return fire, and no disadvantage. A Battlemaster could use Precision Attack to add an additional d12 to the roll, but probably won't need to.

A melee build won't do nearly as well, obviously, and in that case Precision Attack might make a real difference.

I was appropriating JNA's build (I think? The champion one) from the Fighter 20 v. Warlock 10 thread for my thinking. If someone wanted to copy those over or edit them into the first post, those seem like decent builds to start with.

[MaxWilson]

What are your ability scores for this build? As it stands, you are making two attacks with disadvantage against at least 17 AC. Both of your ASIs went to feats, so your AC is at most 16 and your attack at +7 to-hit. That gives you a 30% chance to hit with the disadvantage. And that leaves you with only +1 to your Con.

Sorry, I didn't see some of the posts on this page. Late responding to this.

A build is a template (or "paradigm" if you will), not an actual PC, so it doesn't have ability scores until you try to fit the build to a specific PC. I wouldn't try this build though without pretty decent stats though, at least a couple of 15s that can turn into 16s--if you roll 14, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10 you should just make something else.

Yes, making the first attack without advantage (i.e. prone, but hidden = disadvantage + advantage = nothing) will hurt the monk's DPR. It's better than getting killed by the fighter though. Your second shot might be made standing, depending on how much the DM lets you know about each other's held actions/how complicated triggers can be/etc. You lose out on sneak attack damage in that case, as I'd said before, but oh well.

As you can see, you won't be making the attack at disadvantage, so your to-hit is around 50%, not 30%.

I don't know how you're deducing "only +1 to your Con". Even if you were using point buy, you could just buy a 15, 15, 14 array and wind up with 16 Dex/16 Wis/14 Con, which fits your conjectures about AC (only +6 to hit though, not +7) but gives you +2 to Constitution. Which BTW is a perfectly okay Constitution score--above average in fact.

Key point: the OP asked for the lowest-level build which could win better than 50% of the time. I think this build could. Does anyone have a lower-level suggestion that can do it at level 7 or earlier? I think Moon Druid has some potential but it would depend.


I don't see a build for the fighter either, but if it's any kind of archery build they should have a +13 to return fire, and no disadvantage. A Battlemaster could use Precision Attack to add an additional d12 to the roll, but probably won't need to.

A melee build won't do nearly as well, obviously, and in that case Precision Attack might make a real difference.

Yes disadvantage. The monk is firing at least the first shot from a prone position. Sharpshooter is no help against that.

[RickAllison]

Sorry, I didn't see some of the posts on this page. Late responding to this.

A build is a template (or "paradigm" if you will), not an actual PC, so it doesn't have ability scores until you try to fit the build to a specific PC. I wouldn't try this build though without pretty decent stats though, at least a couple of 15s that can turn into 16s--if you roll 14, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10 you should just make something else.

Yes, making the first attack without advantage (i.e. prone, but hidden = disadvantage + advantage = nothing) will hurt the monk's DPR. It's better than getting killed by the fighter though. Your second shot might be made standing, depending on how much the DM lets you know about each other's held actions/how complicated triggers can be/etc. You lose out on sneak attack damage in that case, as I'd said before, but oh well.

As you can see, you won't be making the attack at disadvantage, so your to-hit is around 50%, not 30%.

I don't know how you're deducing "only +1 to your Con". Even if you were using point buy, you could just buy a 15, 15, 14 array and wind up with 16 Dex/16 Wis/14 Con, which fits your conjectures about AC (only +6 to hit though, not +7) but gives you +2 to Constitution. Which BTW is a perfectly okay Constitution score--above average in fact.

Key point: the OP asked for the lowest-level build which could win better than 50% of the time. I think this build could. Does anyone have a lower-level suggestion that can do it at level 7 or earlier? I think Moon Druid has some potential but it would depend.



Yes disadvantage. The monk is firing at least the first shot from a prone position. Sharpshooter is no help against that.

27-point buy. I prefer 4d6b3 for actual play, but that doesn't really help us here. And with point buy and the wood elf, you could get 16 Dex, 16 Wis, 13 Int (which you need to have the wizard levels), and 8 Str and Cha. That leaves 6 points for Con or your other attributes, which can give up to 13 Con and a 9. You can lose a point of AC to increase your Con by reducing Wisdom, but at that pint you are trading an extra point on your concentration saves and health at the cost of getting hit more and . That is not too bad, but would it really be enough to win?

Your health will be around 64 HP with the +2 Con (63 if first level is in Wizard) and your Deflect Missile will reduce damage by 1d10+8 against a damage of 1d8+5, a winning proposition unless they have Sharpshooter. With Sharpshooter (which every build from the other thread seemed to have), you have up to 8 castings of Shield to work through. Which is a good thing, since the fighter only needs a 7 to hit you...

Edit: More numbers. I'll keep things abstract and easy, so I will be using expected damage numbers with 8 rounds having Shield and the rest having Deflect Missile applied.

Monkzard damage per round (+7 to hit, 16 Dex): 2*(.05*.05*12+.05*.5*7.5+.5*.55*7.5) = 4.56 expected damage.

Champion Fighter damage with Sharpshooter (+13-5 to hit, 20 Dex): .15*24+.55*19.5-.7*13.5 = 4.875 expected damage for DM rounds, and 8 rounds of Shield and the attack not getting through.

With only a +1 Con for the fighter, he is still looking at 134 health. So our equations are 4.56*(8+X)=134 and 4.875*X=64. The monk gets it in 22 rounds if we don't use regeneration while the fighter gets his in 14.

Edit2: Now for concentration saves. With DM, the fighter is not getting over 20 damage unless he is really lucky, so I will assume DC 10.

Every turn, there is a 15% chance of a concentration check, while the +2 Con wizard succeeds on an 8 with advantage and let's say two auto-successes with Portent. From the criticals alone, that is a .15*.45*.45% chance of failure. Then, on all but eight of the rolls, we have a .55*.45*.45 chance of failure. So that is (1-.15*.45^2)^8*(1-.70*.45*.44)^13 = .97^8*.858^13 = 10.7% chance for him to stay in the air for long enough to kill the fighter. He can fail twice for free (we will assume good portent rolls for that sake), so he has a decent shot. However, it should remain known that the monkzard cannot afford to fall. He was 600 feet in the air, plenty for the 20d6 damage which would be enough to take him out on its own.

Even if he recovers using Feather Fall or Fly, that is still a turn that the fighter can now riddle him with 8 attacks, and it would be several more before the monkzard can get back to safety.

[MaxWilson]

27-point buy.

Why? I'm not using 27 point buy. I'm responding to the OP's request for "a build." No other requirements specified.

You're free to use 27 point buy if you want, but I find it boring. Besides, it's a variant not the primary PHB method, and it's one that I don't use.

I don't know what you're talking about w/rt 13 Int for "the wizard levels." A Rogue 2/Monk 6 doesn't have any wizard levels. There is no Shield--your reaction is busy w/ Deflect Missiles. It reduces damage by 1d10+9 w/ Dex 16ish.

Edit: It looks like you're neglecting to apply disadvantage to the Champion's attacks, while applying disadvantage to the monk's. Since the Monk is the one who gets to cancel out disadvantage with Hidden, that basically means you're imposing disadvantage on the wrong PC. But I don't understand at all where the 8 rounds of Shield are coming from anyway so I think you're evaluating something that isn't my build...

My math says you'll hit AC 17 36% of the time: 2.25% of that being crits, 33.75% regular hits. Each non-crit will do an average of (d8+15-d10-9)=5 points of damage; each crit will do (2d8+15-d10-9)=9.5 points of damage. 0.3375 * 5 + 0.0225 * 9.5 = 1.9 points of damage, so it will take you about 30 rounds to kill the monk, if he doesn't use his Lucky dice on any crits. The monk has ample time to plausibly kill the fighter, if nothing unlucky happens with concentration rolls or anything and if he can beat the Champion's regeneration. Which I actually don't think he can, since he averages only 8.7 damage per round against the Champion while bow-plinking. He might have better luck against a Battlemaster or an Eldritch Knight.

[bid]

Why? I'm not using 27 point buy. I'm responding to the OP's request for "a build." No other requirements specified.
27 points represents 100% of the point buy cases.

If you wish to roll, you must adjust your success rate by the probability of getting those stats. If you can roll that good 50% of the time, you must win 100% of the time to match the thread's requirements.

[MaxWilson]

27 points represents 100% of the point buy cases.

If you wish to roll, you must adjust your success rate by the probability of getting those stats. If you can roll that good 50% of the time, you must win 100% of the time to match the thread's requirements.

You're not the OP, and I don't care about your rules.

[bid]

You're not the OP, and I don't care about your rules.
I'm pretty sure we could weasel out some rule-lawyering and give a level 1 some auto-kill artifact.

Or you could just pretend you rolled 18 everywhere and the fighter has 20 everywhere. That also seems allowed by the OP.

[RickAllison]

You're not the OP, and I don't care about your rules.

The OP wanted a build that wins 50% of the time. Since point buy is the only way to get a guaranteed value (and so be valid 100% of the time), you have to adjust by the variability of getting good enough stats to make the build. If you don't roll those stats, your build isn't valid and so fails.

And I was responding to your rebuttal on the Monk 5/Wizard 5 suggested by another poster. I haven't touched on your build because... Well I just didn't want to. I felt that it was too dependent on terrain to count for reliably winning.

[NewDM]

What kind of fighter?

Post a level 20 Fighter build and see if we can defeat it. In fact post multiple builds and see if we can defeat it.

[dejarnjc]

I've said multiple times in this thread that much depends upon DM rulings (esp. for Stealth), terrain, and environment--but for the sake of argument, let's say it's taking place in an old-growth forest with lots of light obscurement interspersed with areas of total cover, and the Rogue/Monk is a Wood Elf. That terrain is neither implausbile for an encounter nor too complicated for an Internet thread.

If you don't like that scenario then it can take place anywhere outdoors at night.



Naturally.

This introduces too many variables (half, three-quarters, and full cover just for starters) to make that build work 50% of the time IMO. Too many unknowns and too many variables. A dex EK could just cast invisible and try and stealth up on the rogue/monk. A Dex any archetype with stealth proficiency could just hide and wait for an ambush. I'm regretting joining this thread haha.

[krugaan]

This introduces too many variables (half, three-quarters, and full cover just for starters) to make that build work 50% of the time IMO. Too many unknowns and too many variables. A dex EK could just cast invisible and try and stealth up on the rogue/monk. A Dex any archetype with stealth proficiency could just hide and wait for an ambush. I'm regretting joining this thread haha.

Flee, flee while you can!

This is like a Vietnam of threads: just a vague idea of a goal with no clear objectives.

[MaxWilson]

And I was responding to your rebuttal on the Monk 5/Wizard 5 suggested by another poster. I haven't touched on your build because... Well I just didn't want to. I felt that it was too dependent on terrain to count for reliably winning.

Aha, I see. Your post #28 wasn't addressed to me at all. My bad.

====================================


This introduces too many variables (half, three-quarters, and full cover just for starters) to make that build work 50% of the time IMO. Too many unknowns and too many variables. A dex EK could just cast invisible and try and stealth up on the rogue/monk. A Dex any archetype with stealth proficiency could just hide and wait for an ambush. I'm regretting joining this thread haha.

He's welcome to try. One of the awesome things about Shadow Monks is that once you get past the early levels, they are the only class that can afford to keep Pass Without Trace up all the time. (Of course, in reality you need to sleep sometimes.)

And yeah, I'm regretting responding to this thread too. Silly pointless theorycrafting challenges. Guess that means I'm done now.

[RickAllison]

Aha, I see. Your post #28 wasn't addressed to me at all. My bad.

====================================



He's welcome to try. One of the awesome things about Shadow Monks is that once you get past the early levels, they are the only class that can afford to keep Pass Without Trace up all the time. (Of course, in reality you need to sleep sometimes.)

And yeah, I'm regretting responding to this thread too. Silly pointless theorycrafting challenges. Guess that means I'm done now.

My issue is I think these threads have a lot of potential. When conducted civilly, they encourage deep thinking about the interactions of classes and their powers, as well as strategies.

[krugaan]

My issue is I think these threads have a lot of potential. When conducted civilly, they encourage deep thinking about the interactions of classes and their powers, as well as strategies.

Hahah, yeah, about that...

There should really be proactive attempts by the community to remind itself to be civil, and have responses in kind.

[MaxWilson]

Hahah, yeah, about that...

There should really be proactive attempts by the community to remind itself to be civil, and have responses in kind.

I think your .sig is useful there.

[LVOD]

I feel like a grapple build could probably fo some damage. Bear barb plus wildshape? Advantage on strength checks (from rage) to establish grapple, disadvantage to the fighter for being shoved prone, half damage from attacks that DO hit, and barb has advantage on all his own attacks because of the prone condition. The wildshape is really just to add hp and possibly damage/grapple bonuses. I'm not willing to crunch the numbers right now, but i feel like advantage to self plus disadvantage to enemy plus resistance to all damage gives you a pretty good edge. He also can't escape or do really anything but make strength contests (with disadvantage). You can also dump all ASIs into feats because wild shape has its own stats.

Other than that... Heat metal on his bow and hide behind illusions. He either has disadvantage until he drops it or just slowly dies while he tries to find you.

[RickAllison]

I feel like a grapple build could probably fo some damage. Bear barb plus wildshape? Advantage on strength checks (from rage) to establish grapple, disadvantage to the fighter for being shoved prone, half damage from attacks that DO hit, and barb has advantage on all his own attacks because of the prone condition. The wildshape is really just to add hp and possibly damage/grapple bonuses. I'm not willing to crunch the numbers right now, but i feel like advantage to self plus disadvantage to enemy plus resistance to all damage gives you a pretty good edge. He also can't escape or do really anything but make strength contests (with disadvantage). You can also dump all ASIs into feats because wild shape has its own stats.

Other than that... Heat metal on his bow and hide behind illusions. He either has disadvantage until he drops it or just slowly dies while he tries to find you.

Keep in mind that with disadvantage, the champion we have been using (and the BM from the other thread too, I think) can have +13 to hit which with disadvantage is still hitting you fairly consistently (to knock out concentration on Heat Metal or other concentration spells). It also has either Athletics or Acrobatics (I don't remember) with a +5 from stats. So it is a +11 for the fighter against the +? with advantage. And if the fighter can get some range, the build is kind of shut down in a bad way...

[JoeJ]

Yes disadvantage. The monk is firing at least the first shot from a prone position. Sharpshooter is no help against that.

How are they prone while flying?

[Dimolyth]

I've said multiple times in this thread that much depends upon DM rulings (esp. for Stealth), terrain, and environment--but for the sake of argument, let's say it's taking place in an old-growth forest with lots of light obscurement interspersed with areas of total cover, and the Rogue/Monk is a Wood Elf. That terrain is neither implausbile for an encounter nor too complicated for an Internet thread.

If you don't like that scenario then it can take place anywhere outdoors at night.



Naturally.

So, the champion fighter (due to his regeneration ability he has about 45-60 rounds) already has his time to set the forest in fire - eliminating both natural cover and dim light. In other way - he has enough time to get indoors.
One bad stealth roll - costs 75% of total HP to rogue/monk.
One turn unhidden - costs more than 100% of total HP to rogue monk.
The rogue/monk would have much less than 50% chance to succed.

[djreynolds]

Let's break it down.

The fighter has 4 attacks, so the shield spell is very useful.

Uncanny dodge, defensive duelist are sweet but they are 1 reaction, leaving you with up to 3 more attacks to contend with.

The monk's ability to just use the dodge action as bonus is very big. Also the Open Palms ability, its trip, is nice as it focuses on a dex save.

Shadow step, AFB, and I'm unsure if this costs a bonus action

But a monk's KI points, humbly, IMO, will run out, even if used only for "step of the wind". Rage is nice but its 1 minute. Maybe you have two uses for it.

I think an arcane trickster could be the base, spamming the shield spell as it is good for the whole round. But how to land SA every round is tough. And at 10th level you only have 6 spells, and 12th has 7 spells. Not enough to be worth it

Thief could work, perhaps using fast hands, sleight of hand and setting up traps, moving and taking the dodge action

Swashbuckler though allows me to sneak attack period.

I'm looking at 6 shadow monk/ ? rogue, two short swords, sneak attack and bug out. Rinse and repeat

[Gwendol]

Post a level 20 Fighter build and see if we can defeat it. In fact post multiple builds and see if we can defeat it.

Just take the posted builds of the Warlock 10/Fighter 20 build. They're generic enough.

EDIT: I guess we could add the Cavalier and Scout archetypes (UA Kits of old). The Purple Dragon Knight could be interesting if the fighter is allowed to hold retainers or hirelings?

[MaxWilson]

How are they prone while flying?

The Rogue 2/Shadow Monk 6 is not flying.

[JackPhoenix]

Given the lack of restrictions in the OP... level 1 anything (barkeep) with enough poison.

Take your inspiration from Hamlet and poison everything. You'll need something with save DC at least 13, which means he won't save automaticaly. With certain knock-out poisons, damage won't break the effect, so you can just stab him to death. His dinner? Torpor (DC 15, poisoned and incapacitated for 4d6 hours). His beer? Midnight Tears, and it's free for such a great hero, just have him drink as much as he can. Drapes, bedsheets, doorknobs, everything he could possibly touch? Oil of Taggit. If he falls for that, you can't damage him without waking him up, but he's out for 24 hours, you can just drown him in a bucket. Or dig a hole, gently lower him in and bury him alive. Laugh at fools who want to face the best warrior in the land in a fair fight.

Works even better against wizards.

[JoeJ]

The Rogue 2/Shadow Monk 6 is not flying.

Oh, okay. I was still talking about the flying Wizard 5/Monk 5.

[LaserFace]

Ugh.
Aren't we bored of these threads yet? What is this, the third one?

I don't know if you know this, but people don't actually come to these forums to talk about playing D&D. It's really just dedicated to folks who enjoy discussing numbers, fantasy-sounding nouns, and dice rolls, it just so happens that D&D features all of these in the form of character mechanics.

[Biggstick]

It looks like you're neglecting to apply disadvantage to the Champion's attacks, while applying disadvantage to the monk's. Since the Monk is the one who gets to cancel out disadvantage with Hidden, that basically means you're imposing disadvantage on the wrong PC. But I don't understand at all where the 8 rounds of Shield are coming from anyway so I think you're evaluating something that isn't my build...

Wouldn't the Alert feat on the Fighter completely negate the advantaged auto attacks that the Monk is getting from being hidden though? Any Dex based level 20 Fighter will definitely be looking at that feat; you yourself took it on your Eldritch Knight build for the Fighter 20 vs Warlock 10 thread.

[MaxWilson]

Wouldn't the Alert feat on the Fighter completely negate the advantaged auto attacks that the Monk is getting from being hidden though? Any Dex based level 20 Fighter will definitely be looking at that feat; you yourself took it on your Eldritch Knight build for the Fighter 20 vs Warlock 10 thread.

It would--but does the Champion have that feat? If we're using JNA Productions' fighter from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?487426-Fighter-20-vs-Warlock-10), his feats are:

Dex +2 (Levels 4, 6)
Sharpshooter (Level 8)
Resilient (Wsidom) (Level 12)
Con +2 (Levels 14, 16)
Mobile (level 19)

Also, Alert doesn't change the fact that the fighter has disadvantage against the monk, which is the more important part.

(Yes, I myself took Alert, but my builds seem to be somewhat atypical for this forum. Most people don't seem to build like I do, though I flatter myself that my builds are clearly better. For example, I would have taken Lucky instead of Con +2--it's more versatile and probably more HP saved anyway.)

[Gwendol]

Lucky should clearly be better than +2 CON, for any PC.