How much is another body worth? (Or, is being two people a class?)

[Fizban]

So there's animal companions and familiars and special mounts, all with their own scaling progressions. We know what the game thinks they're worth, how good they really are, and so on. There's also Leadership, which everyone knows is just bonkers.

What I'm interested in is what you can do with an extra body. Not an animal or monster, no special bonds, not being a Dvati or anything, just an NPC-Warrior classed guy at the same level as you (similar ability score array). Another body of comparable toughness in the fight. How much is that worth? What if you're also basically just a Warrior? How many Warriors does it take to equal a PC class?

Clearly it's worth doubling your base iterative attacks, likely almost doubling your hp as well, and you can be in two places at once. That should be easily worth many class features. You effectively take double damage from AoEs and single target buffs are only half as good, but multi-target buffs are twice as good. You also have to split your WBL between bodies. By my calculations a Warrior with NPC gear is actually worth 1/2 level in CR. NPC gear is less than half PC gear from 5th on so you can match that, with +2 EL from being a pair, which holds up until. . . 5th (when you can actually start matching it, But in actuality, PC-classed NPCs are not worth CR=level at all (with some exceptions), maybe level-1 at best, so you're doing okay from 5th to 6th I guess. Not that CR actually matters, but it's interesting. You'd obviously combo best with a party buffer, but what if no one's doing that?

So, how does the playground think it stacks up? How many Warriors do you need to be at what level in order to equal a PC, or do you think it can even be done?

The exercise actually stems from a combination of my proposed Leadership changes (NPC class cohorts only but cohort max level=your level*) and the Commander class from the War of the Burning Sky (https://wotbsadventurepath.com/free-intro-pack/) player materials (essentially a Marshal fix, including bonus feats that can be Inspire Courage-like or fighter feats). I think that a Warrior at your full level should be useable on the front line as a buff mannequin, and the Commander isn't much better for stats-so that's two mostly blank bodies with d8's, full armor, and their general feat pools, some buffs and tactics between them but sharing one WBL. That combo I know is useable. But it does make me wonder how well it would go without the buffs, tactical abilities, or skill options. We're so accustomed to taking animals and monsters for granted and some take even Leadership for granted, but a whole extra body is probably a big deal even without class features. Unless it's actually so bad it's not.

*My original wording was "NPC classes only," which could be an even harsher nerf: PC must use NPC class to take Leadership. Still potentially a useful nerf if you need one that strong to make it available.

Edit: clarification. Extra body is under full player control, though player is strongly discouraged from treating them as disposable. I wasn't thinking in terms of literal psychic body doubles or anything, just "my character is two characters with bad classes."

Edit2: further refinement. For a pair of warriors, the point of comparison is other combat classes. For a Commander+warrior, the points of comparison are other combat or buff-ish classes, Bard being obvious. Where a Bard has a bunch of spells and more that can be optimized out the wazoo, the Commander doesn't-he's being allowed a form of Leadership to optimize with (NPC classes only, as mentioned), as well as likely access to any bard or marshal items that are being allowed. And obviously an Adept has nearly as much casting as a Bard so that option's pretty much a wash.

Other classes -or more accurately other Characters, may have access to Leadership, possibly even casters, but full casters that already have pets do not. I don't mind the idea of a guy with both a horse and a footman and there's some diminishing returns there, but full casters don't need even more minions.

[weckar]

It still very much depends on how much authority the player has over the second body's build and actions. If this all in the DM's court it's power can be adjusted on the fly, after all.

[Bronk]

Well, oddly, that's already perfectly within the rules of hirelings. An advanced warrior hireling costs 3 gold per level per day (DMG p105-106), does what you tell them to do, and doesn't take a cut of the treasure or XP.

A DM might make it difficult to find one of a particular level, though, let alone a continuous stream of these guys at ever increasing levels.

[weckar]

Dang, thanks for that reference. So you have a literal gold piece value. (I actually needed that).

[LoyalPaladin]

I'm interested in this. Make me think of Pain from Naruto. (Which coincidentally, Snowbluff loves. Just like he loves Sword Art Online.)

[Snowbluff]

As psicrystal metamorphed or a familiar polymorphed is basically another egoist/transmuter in a fight. :smalltongue:
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/steven-universe/images/2/2d/Lapis_Lazuli_Water_Hand.gif/revision/latest?cb=20150409012538
And I'm going to strangle LP in his sleep.

[LoyalPaladin]

I'm going to strangle LP in his sleep.
I'm not sure why you're so defensive about your love of those animes. Sort of like how I'm not sure why Red Fel is so defensive of his love of Date A Live. Hahaha. #LPStartingWars

[Segev]

Oh, please, it's not like you're actually insulting anybody. I mean, Red Fel and Snowbluff can like whatever they want to like. And if you happen to be wrong... *shrug* Besides, I do legitimately like SAO and eagerly await a third season. Though I'd like to see more Star vs. the Forces of Evil even more.

[Red Fel]

Sort of like how I'm not sure why Red Fel is so defensive of his love of Date A Live. Hahaha. #LPStartingWars

Date A Live? Which is that one?

*one Google later*

... LP... We need to have a talk.

http://data.whicdn.com/images/96501643/large.gif

[LoyalPaladin]

Is there a way to do the Pain body split thing? That'd be sweet in D&D.


Oh, please, it's not like you're actually insulting anybody. I mean, Red Fel and Snowbluff can like whatever they want to like. And if you happen to be wrong... *shrug*
Hahaha. I figure that I get the "poke him with a stick" treatment enough that I can slowly edge the stick back at them. Wait till I photoshop a "Kirito-Senpai" shirt on Snowbluff's Mitzi avatar.


Besides, I do legitimately like SAO and eagerly await a third season. Though I'd like to see more Star vs. the Forces of Evil even more.
Perhaps better fit for the media forum, so I'll spoiler it.
I didn't mind SAO that much, I actually sort of like the light novels. Gungale was interesting, but I liked the colorful and unrealistic adventures in Aincrad. The Alfheim online arc could have either been shorter or longer, but the amount of info they included sort of bugged me. Gungale was visually appealing on so many levels haha.


Date A Live? Which is that one?

*one Google later*

... LP... We need to have a talk.

http://data.whicdn.com/images/96501643/large.gif
Oh no! He found me! Hahaha! How does he bloody do that?!

[the_david]

An encounter with 2 warriors would have a CR that's 1 higher than an encounter with a PC class of the same level. So you could say it's worth a LA+1. This is assuming NPC gear and the non-elite array.

Or you could just take Leadership.

[Segev]

Date A Live? Which is that one?

*one Google later*

... LP... We need to have a talk.

http://data.whicdn.com/images/96501643/large.gif

Which one is Date A Live, again? Is it a harem comedy or a dark action thing? I can never keep it straight.

[Red Fel]

Is there a way to do the Pain body split thing? That'd be sweet in D&D.

Start with Body Outside Body, perhaps? Cast it as a War spell?


Oh no! He found me! Hahaha! How does he bloody do that?!

Hahaha! Yeah, he did, hahaha!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/02/99/81/0299818737cddee4893c21573408e4a7.gif

Hold still.

[LoyalPaladin]

Which one is Date A Live, again? Is it a harem comedy or a dark action thing? I can never keep it straight.
Both, with an unhealthy mix of fanservice.


Start with Body Outside Body, perhaps? Cast it as a War spell?
I must look into this.




Hahaha! Yeah, he did, hahaha!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/02/99/81/0299818737cddee4893c21573408e4a7.gif

Hold still.
http://img.pandawhale.com/post-25055-NOPE-nope-anime-gif-8upz.gif

[Snowbluff]

I'm not sure why you're so defensive about your love of those animes.

Oh no, it's because SAO has taught me something very special. That you can act very outlandishly, as if you were written by a C list manganka, and people will still think you're human.
https://49.media.tumblr.com/98f0575f57f2b49d991b36eb9610059d/tumblr_o5jkn6QrPx1vnokczo1_500.gif
So, die!

[LoyalPaladin]

Oh no, it's because SAO has taught me something very special. That you can act very outlandishly, as if you were written by a C list manganka, and people will still think you're human.
https://49.media.tumblr.com/98f0575f57f2b49d991b36eb9610059d/tumblr_o5jkn6QrPx1vnokczo1_500.gif
So, die!
You say hurtful things when your love interests are brought into the spotlight.

[Snowbluff]

You say hurtful things when your love interests are brought into the spotlight.
watch steven universe LP
What I don't like you or anything.
http://38.media.tumblr.com/34e7603ef2d773e17b2c65ac06438ea2/tumblr_nm9kqidwee1us3yu8o1_r1_500.gif
Baka!

[LoyalPaladin]

watch steven universe LP
Every time I see you post a gif of it, it makes me want to watch it less. :smallfrown: To quote Virus: "It makes my eyes bleed."

[ZeroiaSD]

Very good question!


The thing is, a second body is much better than a hireling, because there's no morale issues, no balking or objecting. Presumably instant communication between the two... and also presumably some way to replace one if lost.

A hivemind of two is an idea I've seen in a few places (Schlock Mercenary, the old Doom novels- mostly SF, but could work in fantasy). An occult/psychic class along those lines, or a specific race, would be very interesting.

[Snowbluff]

Every time I see you post a gif of it, it makes me want to watch it less. :smallfrown: To quote Virus: "It makes my eyes bleed."

You made it through SAO, you can make it through Steven Universe. :smallsmile:

[Fizban]

Added a note to first post regarding player control. The idea was not supernatural body doubling, though that's a valid path to examine as well. I was thinking more just "my character is two bad characters." As for hirelings, I generally ignore the formula for higher level guys because it is silly. Higher level people are rare, anyone with a decent amount of levels charges entirely based on the job at hand, and said price is going to be based on their wealth rather than their level.

[Segev]

I enjoyed Stephen Universe. It is no Gravity Falls, but it gets more interesting the further in you watch.

[tomandtish]

One thing for some thought on the process would be to check out Harem from Grrl Power (http://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1302). She can have up to 5 active bodies. Not quite the same thing but might spark some ideas on how it would work.

[Bronk]

Added a note to first post regarding player control. The idea was not supernatural body doubling, though that's a valid path to examine as well. I was thinking more just "my character is two bad characters." As for hirelings, I generally ignore the formula for higher level guys because it is silly. Higher level people are rare, anyone with a decent amount of levels charges entirely based on the job at hand, and said price is going to be based on their wealth rather than their level.

Maybe... two simulacrums of a axiomatic creature? They wouldn't be able to progress, but they could start at whatever level you want, and they would be in mental contact with each other as long as they're in the same general area.

[Snowbluff]

I enjoyed Stephen Universe. It is no Gravity Falls, but it gets more interesting the further in you watch.

I think I like Steven Universe a bit more as of the third season. I'm sad Gravity Falls is over, though. I can't bring myself to watch the last two episodes. :smallfrown:

[Bronk]

I think I like Steven Universe a bit more as of the third season. I'm sad Gravity Falls is over, though. I can't bring myself to watch the last two episodes. :smallfrown:

You can do it! It's totally worth finishing the entire series...

[Flying Nostril]

I have played as two warforged scout-type swordsages, Axe and Blade. Because they fulfilled essentially the same party role I could choose maneuvers and feats that balanced off the other and made for a much stronger team. One way to look at it is that you essentially get two rolls for some things. Initiative was one of these. If Axe rolled high and Blade rolled low, he delayed until just before or after Axe's turn so they they could act together and set up enemies how they liked. Another was reactive spot and listen checks. I found a way to get telepathy between the two as soon as possible (a psionic version put on circlets for just a few thousand gp per circlet, I think) and from there they were able to be even more effective since they could set up ambushes in total silence or communicate spot and listen checks to each other. One thing I had them commonly do was play off their hide and move silently against each other-If Axe hid and Blade could see him, Axe re-hid until Blade could not, and vice versa, and same with move silently.

In my opinion, two characters optimized with each other could be used as a stand in for a single character, even if the two were NPC classes (warrior and adept come to mind specifically). If I were playing with 2-3 other PCs, I would expect my two characters to be between 1-3 levels lower than the others, depending on the classes allowed to my characters and the other player's choices.

Fluff-wise, I would go with characters that are easy to keep together, like siblings or close friends. My two little murder-bots were fluffed as one original soul split in two to fill two smaller bodies so that the their maker could fill an order for more warforged scouts on time.

The actual roleplay of two separate people can get tiresome if you find you are talking to yourself. I found it better to have any conversations exclusively between the two scouts "off-screen" so that others could get more time.

If you can convince your DM to let you do something like what you are describing you should definitely try it out.

[Troacctid]

From a class design standpoint, two bad characters sounds less compelling than one good character. It also compares poorly against a druid, bard, paladin, healer, urban druid, or any other class that has a second body as a class feature while also having other good class features as well.

[Fizban]

One way to look at it is that you essentially get two rolls for some things. Initiative was one of these. If Axe rolled high and Blade rolled low, he delayed until just before or after Axe's turn so they they could act together and set up enemies how they liked. Another was reactive spot and listen checks.
The former is actually taking the worst of both rolls, with the option of having them move independantly if you don't want to give up the higher roll. The second is definitely one of the benefits though, two rolls on every sense check.

The actual roleplay of two separate people can get tiresome if you find you are talking to yourself. I found it better to have any conversations exclusively between the two scouts "off-screen" so that others could get more time.
That's something I'd be worried about too. The downside of trying to have a cohort that's actually interesting and not under DM control is having to roleplay two characters off each other constantly, by talking to yourself and taking up time.

If you can convince your DM to let you do something like what you are describing you should definitely try it out.
No game at the moment and even if I dragged a group together I'd be the most likely DM. I said "proposed" leadership changes simply because I haven't solicited any opinions on them, seems simple enough really-much easier to deal with than standard cohorts. I've tinkered with warrior based stuff (those CR calculations, my own Marshal fix, summoning spells, etc) in the past and that Commander class put me back in the mood. I've also been working on a mount class so the differences are on my mind. But yeah, if I was gonna play a Commander that'd be how I'd want it: with Leadership for a nice Warrior meatstick, assuming the rest of the party can step to that level.

From a class design standpoint, two bad characters sounds less compelling than one good character. It also compares poorly against a druid, bard, paladin, healer, urban druid, or any other class that has a second body as a class feature while also having other good class features as well.
Well from a class design standpoint we know that the Druid is a terrible idea anyway, being three classes in one (internally it's fine but otherwise, hah). I suppose I didn't spell it out, but I don't expect comparison of a warrior duo or commander+warrior to the tier 1 behemoth with the most freebies. It's a fair point of course, I certainly wouldn't expect anyone looking for power to go there, but I'm more interested if it can do it's own job. Does a proper warrior duo sufficiently fill the combat slot, or do most solo PC classes beat it out? For a stronger game, does an extra body give the commander enough oomph to compare with an another optimized class (this is where the Druid would be slightly more appropriate, or better a Paladin or Bardsader, or just Bard)? You may further assume that while full casters may or may not have access to Leadership, people with pets do not.

I'm not aware of any bard featuring a second body except the UA "nature" bard that loses inspire courage to get an animal companion.

The big difference from all the usual extra bodies, the animal companion/special mount/familiar, is that a humanoid warrior is a humanoid. It can talk, think, act independently (as a player character), wield weapons, use non-magical equipment and activate magic items. Having opposable thumbs is kinda useful, especially with a skill and feat list having potentially no overlap with your other playable body. You can actually take two full rounds of player actions instead of one round of player and one round of the pet's subset. A large animal companion is better in a fight (offensively at least), but it has to take actions based on tricks or Speak With Animals and can't really coordinate in any way other than "follow trick-order now." Special mounts are intelligent but have some potentially annoying rules and still lack communication (with some exceptions) or thumbs (with fewer exceptions). A familiar can share skills but doesn't have it's own pool, can potentially activate magic items but is tissue paper in a fight.

Those restrictions are all part of the features and while loopholes exist, the limits are generally taken for granted. Which is why I wouldn't be surprised if the synergy of having two humanoids instead of one had some hidden benefits. Flying Nostril mentions initiative tradeoffs and basic skill doubling, but those are pretty basic.

[Flying Nostril]

I should have clarified that picking which initiative to go on by delaying is highly situational. It worked for those two because they frequently engaged enemies before the rest of the party, or engaged from an ambush spot and so had much more control than typical parties. As far as synergies go, there are a number of Tome of Battle maneuvers that debuff or control enemies (the throws especially from Setting Sun) that can be taken advantage of if the enemies are not able to recover, which they might if their turn is taken in between the duo. Setting up flanking is also easier if the two flankers act one after another. Also once the two players are next to each other on the initiative count you can actually have one of them act twice before the other does. This was great in the case of the two scouts when one of them was granting a bonus to the other and the buffed individual could take advantage of it twice before the other had to end the effect for some reason (such as switching stances from a flanking stance to a mobility stance to close with another enemy)

Also, this is just the synergy between two characters from the same class. It does not take long to discover other such benefits, and they can be as simple as the Halfling flanking rogue (move speed 20) riding in the invisible hasted Barbarian's backpack (move speed 70) before tumbling out to deal his sneak attack to the BBEG who hasn't even had a turn yet because of the Barbarian's high initiative roll and the rogue delaying until after the barbarian took his turn. (No, I'm not bitter, it was funny.)

This also does not cover the intentional teamwork play that White Raven and Devoted Spirit maneuvers invite. Imagine two crusaders standing next to each other, healing each other ad infinitum, or the White Raven warblade that gives charge bonuses to the pouncing barbarian. Synergies and benefits are just waiting to be found and exploited.

[Jormengand]

I did make a class based around this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481669-The-Cloner-%28Class-in-30-minutes-PEACH%29), and the verdict is that even racial features (or, at a long shot, DMM:persisting before cloning) make the large number of clones a nightmare, but that otherwise it's only pretty good.

[Fizban]

Well so you have, that is interesting. Far more clones than I'd think was appropriate, especially with magic item sharing, but the bodies are weaker with d6-3/4-simple-medium. With so many bodies and hit points between them it'd be rather difficult to keep them patched up, I assume that you're meant to zerg your way through higher level battles and thus get even more bodies to fuel that. Obviously high ability scores and racial choices are the easiest abuse, but I think there are some constant/at-will magic items that would be unhealthy in such large numbers. And amusingly I see no mention of getting free copies of your equipment, meaning you have to bring clothes for all your yous, heh. Could make for some very cool party dynamics, have much larger skirmishes where the other party members are your top guys and the Cloner becomes your army of mooks. Well that's basically every battle but bringing an army to every battle isn't very common.

So then you would say two warriors alone is always insufficient? Cloner seems clearly higher power than most non-casters to me, but with an endpoint of 90 guys I'd guess 2 would not be enough even on the low end of your estimation.

[khadgar567]

Well so you have, that is interesting. Far more clones than I'd think was appropriate, especially with magic item sharing, but the bodies are weaker with d6-3/4-simple-medium. With so many bodies and hit points between them it'd be rather difficult to keep them patched up, I assume that you're meant to zerg your way through higher level battles and thus get even more bodies to fuel that. Obviously high ability scores and racial choices are the easiest abuse, but I think there are some constant/at-will magic items that would be unhealthy in such large numbers. And amusingly I see no mention of getting free copies of your equipment, meaning you have to bring clothes for all your yous, heh. Could make for some very cool party dynamics, have much larger skirmishes where the other party members are your top guys and the Cloner becomes your army of mooks. Well that's basically every battle but bringing an army to every battle isn't very common.

So then you would say two warriors alone is always insufficient? Cloner seems clearly higher power than most non-casters to me, but with an endpoint of 90 guys I'd guess 2 would not be enough even on the low end of your estimation.
even with jorms crazy class you only need two bodies one caster and one melee caster for buffs melee for protection