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View Full Version : How do you deal with honorifics and forms of address in your campaign?



Jon_Dahl
2016-05-26, 09:01 AM
This threads is for those of you who that have pseudo-medieval campaign worlds with European flavor with knights, dukes, kings etc. This includes some parts of Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk, for instance.

My research into the matter has revealed that forms of address are actually pretty complicated, at least for my brain.
You have Sirs, Lord, the Honourables, Graces, Excelliencies, Majestys, Royal Highnesses, Exalted Highnesses, His or Her Eminencies, Worships and many others. When dealing with nobility, this stuff is actually extremely important.

If you have different kinds of nobles in your game, how do you deal with forms of address and honorifics?

For instance, I'm going to have two sons of a marquess, both are NPCs, befriending the PCs. The younger son should be called "The Honourable NPC" and the marquess's oldest son should be called "The Most Honourable" at all times.

In the future, the PCs will meet a baronetess and her family, and a viscount and his daughter. The meetings will be formal and forms of address should be used correctly.

Please help me here...

goto124
2016-05-26, 09:04 AM
Would players have to keep up to the same standards of remembering honorifics and forms of address? I hope no, though making use of them in Diplomancy and other Charisma rolls would be nice and dandy.

Jon_Dahl
2016-05-26, 09:19 AM
Would players have to keep up to the same standards of remembering honorifics and forms of address? I hope no, though making use of them in Diplomancy and other Charisma rolls would be nice and dandy.

No, they don't have to. But in formal situations they would have to be able to address everyone right. I don't see any other way! There is a ceremony and you have to address the baronetess, her youngest son, her wife and the oldest son of marquess. What to do? The players have some kind of a placeholder that they use all the time?

Faily
2016-05-26, 09:28 AM
I would say skills like Knowledge: Nobility & Royalty covers knowing the correct terms of adress for such esteemed people.

But most people who don't move in such circles normally, like most adventurers perhaps, it should suffice to mostly stick with "my lord" and "my lady", unless they actually have the relevant skills to know or someone with the right knowledge clobbered them over the head before the grand event until they remembered. :smalltongue:

At tabletop, I've never been bothered if people don't use the correct forms of adress, because most players don't possess that sort of knowledge. In PbP, it's way easier to double-check before posting.

I know that it takes me a while to correctly remember if I should say:
Eminence
Excellency
Highness
Grace

Not to mention that the whole plethora of terms can get rather confusing at times. Like, you can call a woman "my lady" even if she holds no titles and isn't royalty, but Lady is also the feminine form of Lord. Also applies if she is a Knight. And it can also be applied to women with other titles than Lady, like princess, duchess or even queen. While to a man, you adress a Knight by saying "sir [insert name]", because Lord would be out of place there, but you can call him Lord if he holds the title Lord, or like his female counterpart, can also be applied to men of other titles (prince, duke, marquis, king...)

Segev
2016-05-26, 10:07 AM
I would let the player get away with simply using "Lord" and "Lady" and the like, and roll Diplomacy and/or Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) to see if the PC gets it right in character. If you, the GM, actually have an idea what the proper titles are, you can tell them on the successful roll, and let them quickly rephrase so that their PCs really did say it right. And you can use failed rolls to mean that, no, their PCs did not get it right that time, if you like. Woops!

Airk
2016-05-26, 10:16 AM
I suggest using a combination of "intent" and "is this something your character would know?"

The former is basically "Is the player making an effort to roleplaying being polite and using terms of respect?" - if in doubt, ask. "Hey; This is the Emperor of the Known World you are talking to here. Are you deliberately just calling him "sir"?" I wouldn't quibble over "Your Majesty" vs "Your Highness" or whatever.

The latter is straightforward - not everyone in the setting even knows how (or is expected to know how) to address these people. If the Duke of a territory rides through somewhere and asks a question of a peasant who has only ever even heard LEGENDS of this guy, he's probably not going to give the peasant a hard time for calling him "Your lordship" or "Your worship" instead of "Your grace" but a nobleman wouldn't be afforded the same leniency... he's expected to know better.

This is also the "This game is set in Feudal Japan and there's no English equivalent for courtly Japanese." - First you sanity check if the CHARACTER even knows courtly Japanese, and then you ask the player if they're using it. It's not hard.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-05-26, 10:18 AM
At tabletop, I've never been bothered if people don't use the correct forms of adress, because most players don't possess that sort of knowledge. In PbP, it's way easier to double-check before posting.

Yeah. I tend to play it fast-and-loose with titles, because it's not fair to expect players to remember that. Ordinary people don't have to deal with that in their real lives anymore, so it just doesn't enter people's heads.

In a game I'm running at the moment (it's a PbP one, even), I've repeatedly had NPCs use different honorifics for the party's paladin just to emphasise the fact that it doesn't matter. She's not a knight, but some NPCs assume she is, some speak different languages or come from different cultures... it's like, the important thing is what they say apart from the titles.

JeenLeen
2016-05-26, 10:19 AM
I recommend hand-waving it, with an out-of-character understanding. The examples you state are a small group of people (some being friends), and the PCs would know it. If the baroness and kin meeting is something the PCs know about in advance, ask if their characters look up the proper titles. I wouldn't penalize the players for not thinking about that ahead of time, giving how little importance such has in our modern world.

If the PCs were flung into a formal setting with several nobles, I could see the roles coming into play, but with this group I think you should just let the players say whatever (Your Honor, My Lord, etc.) and it is understood that the characters said the proper thing.

Just make sure no player plans to have his person flaunt tradition by purposefully using the wrong honorifics.

As another idea, let the players write down the honorifics on a notepad. I'd say handle it close to how you'd handle them remembering a passphrase. This is just like 4-6 passwords or codes.

Red Fel
2016-05-26, 10:26 AM
Please help me here...

Most peasants are fairly uneducated, so simple works. I suggest:
If someone is a noble, refer to them by title ("King so-and-so, Duchess such-and-such") or, if specifics are unknown, by the generic M'Lord/M'Lady/Sir/Dame. "Your Adjectiveness" also works - Your Highness, Your Excellency, Your Royal Bigness, Your Way-Way-Upness, etc.
If someone is a member of the wealthy aristocracy, refer to them as Master/Mistress such-and-such.
If someone is a member of the clergy, refer to them by their clerical title ("Father so-and-so," "Sister such-and-such," "Shepherd what's-his-name,").
If someone is a filthy, repulsive, ignorant peasant, refer to them as "Good." (For example, "Good Fishmonger," "Good Robert.")
Technically, there are specifics. Here's a list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_and_noble_styles) from Wikipedia of how specific nobles are styled. Unless someone has studied the nobility (Knowledge (royalty/history/nobility/heraldry)) there's pretty much no way they'd know one from another.

The groveling is the more important part; the specific title is less important. Nobody expects a revolting, fetid serf to understand the distinctions between His Highness and Her Majesty. (Except that one of them is wearing a dress.)

Veil
2016-05-26, 11:16 AM
In the campaigns I've run with, usually if we just used "Lord", "Sir" or "Ser", we'd be considered fine and didn't need to remember the exact titles of address because it could slow down action or seem a bit... weird if we stopped the action every time to go fact-checking or consult with each other what form of address we're supposed to use. I also think we had relatively few run-ins with nobles, though.

Ideally, though, I think it helps immersion if non-noble characters actually learn forms of address and correctly use them. Most of my adventures have just been about murdering monsters, rather than appeasing people with diplomacy. I hope to see that changed at some point.

JoeJ
2016-05-26, 11:50 AM
If you're using a European model for your society, there's probably a court official who escorts that party into the presence of the noble and explains to them how they should act. That would pretty much guarantee the characters know the proper terms of address, even if the players don't, so unless they're specifically trying to be insulting, you can simply assume that everybody meets the minimum standard of politeness.

Ashtagon
2016-05-26, 12:03 PM
The way I'd do it is consider whether the player is attempting to be polite/respectful by the standards of [our/the player's/Western] (delete as appropriate) culture. If the player is being respectful in their own frame of reference, i would take that as intent for the character to be respectful within the character's in-game frame of reference.

K/nobility checks may also be used.

JoeJ
2016-05-26, 12:06 PM
The way I'd do it is consider whether the player is attempting to be polite/respectful by the standards of [our/the player's/Western] (delete as appropriate) culture. If the player is being respectful in their own frame of reference, i would take that as intent for the character to be respectful within the character's in-game frame of reference.

That makes sense. And if there's any question, you can always ask the player for clarification. Saying, "Phrased like that, your request is going to sound insulting. Is that what you're going for?" is a lot less immersion breaking than having to backtrack because you misunderstood the player's intention.

Honest Tiefling
2016-05-26, 12:28 PM
Firstly, the player gets told what the character knows. So if the character has had any reason to hang around these people (Displaced noble, servant, merchant, scholar, etc.) they get told if appropriate to their backstory (such as if they are from the region).

Then, allow the knowledge rolls for the correct information. Knowledge Nobility or its kin seems like a good choice here.

Thirdly, I also remind the PLAYERS of such information when appropriate if they have succeeded on the roll or knew it from their backstory. I am the type of DM who wants the players to be engaged with the story, but realize that memorizing all details as a test is both impractical and impossible for my groups.

Flashcards you can hold up while they address these NPCs might help. I'd slap a portrait onto them so they remember who the NPC is better. If you can or already do use a website, some allow you to put up NPC bios people can check out while on their phones in the bathroom.

Douche
2016-05-26, 01:10 PM
No, they don't have to. But in formal situations they would have to be able to address everyone right. I don't see any other way! There is a ceremony and you have to address the baronetess, her youngest son, her wife and the oldest son of marquess. What to do? The players have some kind of a placeholder that they use all the time?

Just have the nobles, or their house guard, say something like "you WILL address him as 'your excellency'" and bop them on the head or something.

If it becomes prevalent that they are disrespecting or disregarding the honorific, then the noble will be less inclined to deal with them.

The Fury
2016-05-27, 07:05 PM
As a player I usually go with what seems correct at the time, generally DMs will just go with it. Though the highest-ranked person any of my characters usually deal with is a knight, "Sir," "Dame," or "Lady," are the only ones I really have to remember.

Gnoman
2016-05-29, 07:01 AM
In my campaigns, anybody that gets an honorific (including the PCs, when appropriate), gets announced with their full list of titles and honorifics in any formal setting where they're going to matter. That way the players not only know the proper forms of address, but know when they're not getting the proper respect. If the Empress just drops by for tea or something, titles aren't so important, and a token effort is sufficient.