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Guinaur
2007-06-27, 08:18 AM
I would like to know whether summon monster 1 has any real use at lvl.1? The main thing about the summon monster spells, that I have a problem with, is their duration.
At lvl.1 they have a duration of 1 round, which is useless for the type of creatures you can summon with Summon Monster 1. Do you think that maybe changing the duration to "Concentration + 1rnd/lvl" would be better, and still balanced?

Your thoughts please...

Saph
2007-06-27, 08:21 AM
It's not much use at level 1, but then neither are most spells. Magic Missile and the Lesser Orbs are also pretty much useless when the caster is level 1 or 2, but they're still good spells.

Besides, even at level 1, a summoned monster can still be a distraction or a trap-activator, so it's nowhere near the worst spell out there.

- Saph

FireSpark
2007-06-27, 08:33 AM
At 1st level, summon monster isn't much more than a cannon fodder spell. As level 1 characters, and assuming the general party size of 4 characters, the standard type of enemy you'd be facing are the bread and butter of D&D: goblins, kobolds, other animals, and the occasional hobgoblin or orc (maybe a bugbear if you're lucky). This said, assume you and your group find a group of four goblins (an easy EL 1). If you were to spend a full round casting, then when your celestial dire badger (or whatever) shows up, it's likely that the fighter has already dropped one goblin, and your rogue/cleric have tag-teamed another one down. That leaves two other gobbos for you and your badger to team up on, but by the time you could do anything useful, the fighter and the rest of your team will probably come in and mop up. But take a tougher encounter for example. If you and your and group came across the same four goblins being led by a bugbear (now more of an EL 3 or 4!). Now, a summon monster could come in handy, even if for only one round. Whilst the combat types try to hold the buggy back, your crossbow and your badger can hold off the gobbo's.

In my games, the wizard usually uses his summoned monsters (of any level) for flanking purposes. Gives them better chances to hit, and the sneak attack guys love 'em for it.

nerulean
2007-06-27, 09:16 AM
Yeah, we generally use summoned monsters as trap fodder or flankers. Saves us the bother of actually looking up the stats for the durned thing.

And, uh, as suicidal targets for the Detonate spell at higher levels. Just because.

squidthingy
2007-06-27, 11:02 AM
That might make it unbalenced, the point of level 1 spells is that they aren't increadibly useful, that's why their level one

Ethdred
2007-06-27, 11:39 AM
All of the above, plus even one round can be handy - if you get the right rolls you can take out a bad guy, or, as has been pointed out, get a flanking bonus. Or the enemy (which doesn't know the thing's only going to be around for 6 seconds) will waste its attacks for one round. There are also some useful abilities that some of these critters use - most notably scent or other ways of finding invisible people. We've just used that very effectively in our current 2nd level campaign

nerulean
2007-06-27, 12:05 PM
Or the enemy (which doesn't know the thing's only going to be around for 6 seconds) will waste its attacks for one round.

Which might be an especially nice way of getting rid of something's attack of opportunity, thus allowing squishier party members more options, like casting touch spells on the opponent.

AkumaWolf
2007-08-13, 11:47 AM
a summoned monster can still be a distraction or a trap-activator, so it's nowhere near the worst spell out there.


HAHAA! Shame!

*pets his emotionally scarred summoned monster*

But isn't the summon monster 1/animal 1 est. spell (at 1st level) suppose to be some old out-of-game joke (I think it always referred to the summoned badger)

I know for a fact that Guinaur almost got killed by his players when they JUST started playing D&D cause of this spell...

Took them about an hour to figure out the spell dynamics.
Summoned the badger... it attacks... misses... poofs away...

Yeah, I'd be ready to kill him too :P

kjones
2007-08-13, 11:54 AM
Yes, SMI has all of the above issues, but why does it have a casting time of one round? So much can change in one round that it makes the aforementioned clever uses useless in <50% of circumstances...

RTGoodman
2007-08-13, 12:57 PM
Don't forget that the summoned creature doesn't have to appear beside you. The range of the spell is (25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels).

Realistically, your party could be the standard Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard fighting a groups of goblins. With some tactical thinking (goblins are as intelligent as humans, after all), the goblins could set up an ambush with at least one or two archers up on ledges maybe 15 feet above the party.

The party has the following options:
-Start rolling the Climb checks to climb up to the archers, either before or after taking out the melee fighters (remembering that, without a climb speed or decent check, they lose Dex bonus to AC while climbing and only move at 1/4 of your speed).
-Start targeting the archers (who'll be shooting at the PCs the entire time they're trying to take out the melee-goblins) with ranged spells or weapons (while avoiding AoOs from firing ranged weapons in combat).
-Summon a badger beside the archers to make attacks of opportunity and one full attack against the goblin archers while the rest of the party takes out the others.

Also, anything that gives a bonus to caster level for Conjuration or Conjuration (summoning) spells will make the summoned critters last longer.

Starbuck_II
2007-08-13, 01:04 PM
I would like to know whether summon monster 1 has any real use at lvl.1? The main thing about the summon monster spells, that I have a problem with, is their duration.
At lvl.1 they have a duration of 1 round, which is useless for the type of creatures you can summon with Summon Monster 1. Do you think that maybe changing the duration to "Concentration + 1rnd/lvl" would be better, and still balanced?

Your thoughts please...

Well, I used spiders at level 1 to Web my enemies. Strong enemies can free themselves, but waste an action to get free. weak enemies are stuck in one spot anf entangle penalties to dex and hit. Sure, the spider might miss the touch AC (bad rolls to hit that night), but pretty decent.

Nor, the Summon Monster spells are bett4r from level 2 and on due to 1 action than poof is not that efficient..

Quietus
2007-08-13, 01:11 PM
I like that spider idea! I also enjoy using poison-based summons; Nothing says "Hi!", quite like the appearance of a snake flanker that hits you for 1d6 con/1d6 con poison. Sure, the save isn't fantastic, but you're level 1. Opposing low-fort enemies still have a decent chance of failing, plus there's still the flanking option.

Jacob Orlove
2007-08-13, 03:14 PM
Clerics can actually boost the duration of low level summons pretty effectively via domains. Remember, Summoning a Celestial creature is a [Good] spell, and summoning a Fiendish or Abyssal one is likewise [Evil]. Having the matching alignment domain gives you +1 CL, and thus two rounds instead of one at first level.

Alternatively, you can just take the Summoning domain, and get +2 to the CL, which gives you perfectly adequate durations from level 1 on up.

Damionte
2007-08-13, 03:21 PM
Yeah, we generally use summoned monsters as trap fodder or flankers. Saves us the bother of actually looking up the stats for the durned thing.

And, uh, as suicidal targets for the Detonate spell at higher levels. Just because.

Same here. Unless you have a feat that artificially pumps up your caster level then no the spell is not much use IN COMBAT. You can do other things with it though as described anove.

Once you get a couple levels under your belt though it becomes a better spell to use in combat. All of the summon spells do. Get 3 caster levels under your belt and they become a much better value.

MrNexx
2007-08-13, 03:48 PM
One of my favorites was a gnome who conjured celestial badgers, out of combat, and used them to build tunnels.

PlatinumJester
2007-08-13, 04:12 PM
Uses:

To set off traps.
Distract Guards.
Stick a large piece of parchment with explosive ruins and then send it off as a suicide bomb.
Infect it with a disease and then launch it from a catapult.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-13, 05:22 PM
If you enchant a wand with extended CL 3 SMI, (cost: 4500 gp, 90 gp per charge), you'll have 6 rounds from each. Then just drop critters in behind enemy lines to mess with their casters. I think the enchanter has to set the type of creature though.

Jimbob
2007-08-14, 07:38 AM
But as a 1st level cleric and you take a good and summoning domain's will your good AL summon's last 4 rounds or does the domain bonus's not stack??

And as a wizard or arcane spell caster how can you get your summons to last longer? do you think when it comes to taking spell focus conjeration rather then adding +1 to saves it should add +1 round for summoning, or is that just a bit over powered?

DraPrime
2007-08-14, 07:47 AM
Summon Monster 1 is like a Bag of Tricks. Unless you're creative with it it's pretty useless.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-08-14, 08:21 AM
There's many uses for SMI:

1) Flanking for a Rogue. +1d6 is BIG at 1st level, probably averaging out the same damage as a Magic Missile or Lesser Orb anyways. And that's just the extra SA from the rogue, not to mention what the critter itself gets on it's attack, and the +2 flanking bonus they give each other.
2) Pop it on top of the opponent's caster/archer so it gets AoO on them
3) Trapspringer when your rogue isn't sure he can sucessfully disarm it and it will kill him if he fails
4) Drop it in the path of an opponent so it slows him down while you pick your downed comrade back up.

Kurald Galain
2007-08-14, 08:50 AM
Summon Monster 1 is like a Bag of Tricks. Unless you're creative with it it's pretty useless.

Well, it still does more damage than Burning Hands...

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-14, 09:01 AM
Burning hands is AoE, and is pretty much one of two spells that do more damage at level 2 than level 1...and it's enough damage to leave kobolds unconscious fairly often, anyway.

Of course, Color Spray pretty much walks all over it as the god of level 1 close-combat magic, with sleep for ranged work, so that doesn't help a lot.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-14, 09:19 AM
But as a 1st level cleric and you take a good and summoning domain's will your good AL summon's last 4 rounds or does the domain bonus's not stack??

I believe that is correct. +1 CL for it being a good spell, +2 for being a summoning spell.

You've still got to find a diety that grants those two domains (unlikely since summoner domain is non-core, Complete Divine.)

I wonder if those bonuses apply while making a magic item, or if the 'bonus levels' simply up the cost. i.e. good summoner makes a wand of summon monster 1 (Celestial Badger). Would that cost at CL 1 and yield CL 4 results or would it simply mean the CL is 4 for both?

Jimbob
2007-08-14, 10:47 AM
Well if your making a wand lets say and your caster level is 3 higher then your acual level I think the rule for wands still applies where you can take what the min caster level or your current caster level. But for items im guessing it takes what ever caster level you are, just my view.

Darrin
2007-08-14, 11:09 AM
2) Pop it on top of the opponent's caster/archer so it gets AoO on them


Small scorpion and octopus (if you can get the GM to wave the aquatic environment requirement) both have improved grab. Grappling with spellcasters generally shuts down their spellcasting for a round, possibly more.

Some other uses:

* Owl/hawk/raven + Benign Transposition = short range Dimension Door at level 1.
* Aid Another, +2 to-hit or +2 AC on next attack. Owl or hawk is best, +5 on talons means they have an 80% chance to hit an AC of 10.
* Aid Another on a skill check, +2 bonus. Might be hard to justify in some conditions, but a +2 on a Spot or Survival check might not be out of the question.
* Link between two targets more than 30' apart for a Chain spell.
* Trigger a 5' step for an ally with the Evasive Reflexes feat.
* Target for Divine Spirit stances/maneuvers with healing effects.
* Draw from a Deck of Many Things (monkey)

MrNexx
2007-08-14, 11:15 AM
But as a 1st level cleric and you take a good and summoning domain's will your good AL summon's last 4 rounds or does the domain bonus's not stack??

That's an excellent idea. Especially in low-level play, that extra round will be useful.

However, I wouldn't allow Spell Focus(Conjuration) to switch from +1 DC to +1 Round. Yop might look into Divine Metamagic for Extend spell, for a cleric.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-14, 07:25 PM
* Aid Another, +2 to-hit or +2 AC on next attack. Owl or hawk is best, +5 on talons means they have an 80% chance to hit an AC of 10.
* Aid Another on a skill check, +2 bonus. Might be hard to justify in some conditions, but a +2 on a Spot or Survival check might not be out of the question.


I don't think you can do that, since summoned animals immediately attack creatures you designate. It takes special training of animals to use those aid X tricks. I think it is detailed in Complete Adventurer as new tricks for Handle Animal.

Jack_Simth
2007-08-14, 07:40 PM
I don't think you can do that, since summoned animals immediately attack creatures you designate. It takes special training of animals to use those aid X tricks. I think it is detailed in Complete Adventurer as new tricks for Handle Animal.
When you're using the Summon Monster line, basically everything you get is minimally intelligent (as the Celestial and Fiendish templates specify that the intelligence score is at least 3), and anything with an Intelligence score of 3 or high understands a language - Common, unless otherwise noted. As neither the animal entries nor the Celestial/Fiendish templates specify a language that the critter understands, it defaults to common.

So you can order that Celestial Monkey from Summon Monster I to climb up the wall and fetch the key (if it's got time).

Fax Celestis
2007-08-14, 07:49 PM
* Owl/hawk/raven + Benign Transposition = short range Dimension Door at level 1.

This is usually better performed by one's familiar, since it means only one spell spent instead of two.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-14, 08:35 PM
anything with an Intelligence score of 3 or high understands a language - Common, unless otherwise noted. As neither the animal entries nor the Celestial/Fiendish templates specify a language that the critter understands, it defaults to common.

Please find me a citation about this understanding a language if you have a 3 intelligence. I'm unfamiliar with that rule.

Also, I do believe the language they would understand would be celestial/abyssal/infernal as appropriate, since that would essentially be the common tongue of their native plane.

Personally I think you'd still need speak with animals.

Jack_Simth
2007-08-14, 09:07 PM
Please find me a citation about this understanding a language if you have a 3 intelligence. I'm unfamiliar with that rule.

Okay:



Intelligence

A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).
(emphasis added; Specific text source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#abilities))


Also, I do believe the language they would understand would be celestial/abyssal/infernal as appropriate, since that would essentially be the common tongue of their native plane.

You'd think so, and it would be an extremely reasonable house rule... but RAW, they speak Common.

There's a minor glitch with that house-rule, though - what do you do with the Neutral Evil Summons, such as a Fiendish Monstrous Centipede; It's Evil, but Abyssal and Infernal are separated on the law/chaos axis.


Personally I think you'd still need speak with animals.
Doesn't apply - they're magical beasts - the Fiendish/Celestial template changes the type when applied to an animal or vermin.

MrNexx
2007-08-14, 09:35 PM
My suggestion? If you're going to be a summoner, learn Abyssal, Infernal, and Celestial.

slexlollar89
2007-08-14, 10:28 PM
SMI is not too useful, but i do remember a freind summoning a snake between the queen's bosom at a royal banquet. needless to say he was able to pioson her wine fairly easily after that:smallsmile:

Jack_Simth
2007-08-15, 06:19 AM
My suggestion? If you're going to be a summoner, learn Abyssal, Infernal, and Celestial.

You'll want that for the higher level summons, yes... but Celestial is the language of Good outsiders, Abyssal is the language of CE Outsiders, and Infernal is the language of LE Outsiders. Ignoring, for the moment, that a Fiendish Animal is a Magical Beast, not an Outsider, what do you do with the NE ones (such as the Fiendish Monstrous Centipede)?

The Common default rule, while a little funny in some instances, at least makes sure everything in the Summon Monster list has a language.

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 10:14 AM
You'll want that for the higher level summons, yes... but Celestial is the language of Good outsiders, Abyssal is the language of CE Outsiders, and Infernal is the language of LE Outsiders. Ignoring, for the moment, that a Fiendish Animal is a Magical Beast, not an Outsider, what do you do with the NE ones (such as the Fiendish Monstrous Centipede)?

Cast it once in your room to figure out which language they speak? Since you know both, it doesn't matter.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-15, 10:29 AM
My recommendation is to summon your critters beforehand, in the safety of your home or something and then find out if it understands you. Repeat for all the celestial and infernal types to see if they understand you. Heck, you may even want to bring some friends for some combat training and tactics. The point is, you (the Player and character) want to know before a pitched battle just what your summoned creature is capable of. It also gives the DM a chance to work out those details as well. Besides, who wants to get into an exciting fight only to trainwreck the whole thing when you summon something and the DM has to stop to work through the implications.

Drider
2007-08-15, 11:50 AM
* Draw from a Deck of Many Things (monkey)

DM:monkey gains *rolls dice* 3 wishes.
Player:schweet :smallbiggrin:
Monkey:makes screeching sounds *POOF*
Player:?
Dm:roll spellcraft check
Player:42
DM:he teleported away back to his forest
Player: i use a scrying to spell to find him and teleport there *POOF*
DM:you're surrounded my gorillas and thrown in monkey jail, soap on a rope for you :smallamused:
Player::smalleek: