Totemist Questions

[Hal0Badger]

I have played this game for a very long time, though Magic of Incarnum only recently caught my attention, especially Totemist. Of course I have seen usual suggestions for dipping totemist in various topics, though I particularly dislike dipping, so I ignored most of them.

Looking deeply in this Incarnum classes, totemist really fits a character I wish to play for a very long time, a barbaric force of nature/spirit world. However, I have difficulty to understand some of the features:

1. First of all, how does your totem chakra binds interact with other binds. I understand that it occupies no slot as other chakra binds, nor you can meld soulmelds directly to them. They require your soulmeld to be placed on other chakra first, then binds it on a special empty slot. However, can I bind a souldmeld both in a chakra slot (lets say, hands) and totem at the same time?

Reason I am asking you this, GIRALLON ARMS souldmeld, bound to your arm chakra, specifically notes that, the rend ability works either with the claw attacks granted by GIRALLON ARMS, or any other claw attacks you may posses. Since GIRALLON ARMS grants claws only when you bind it to your totem, how can you benefit from both Arm Chakra bind and totem chakra bind at the same time?

2. Do natural attacks granted by soulmelds increase with size or powerful build ability (like, goliaths')?

3. Can you take improved natural attack feat if you have access to soulmelds that grants natural attacks (in example NPCs I have seen improved critical attack for natural attacks as a feat) ? If I can, assuming that I take Improved NA (claw), would it effect all the claw attacks I got from possible soulmelds, or should I take separate feats for each soulmeld?


This are the mechanical aspects I have some diffuculty with. On a related topic, I would also like to ask your opinions on Totem Rager. I see it seems a nice combination of barbarian/totemist via totem rage ability, however, their chakra binds come online way too late, especially compared to totemist. A totemist gets his least chakra binds at level 5, and lesser ones at level 9. Earliest entry to totem rager is 7, and it grants least chakras at character level 10, and lesser ones at fricking level 15. Exactly what ability makes this PRC worthwhile, since I look through some guides and they suggest it as a nice melee PRC for totemist.

[Troacctid]

1. First of all, how does your totem chakra binds interact with other binds. I understand that it occupies no slot as other chakra binds, nor you can meld soulmelds directly to them. They require your soulmeld to be placed on other chakra first, then binds it on a special empty slot. However, can I bind a souldmeld both in a chakra slot (lets say, hands) and totem at the same time?

Reason I am asking you this, GIRALLON ARMS souldmeld, bound to your arm chakra, specifically notes that, the rend ability works either with the claw attacks granted by GIRALLON ARMS, or any other claw attacks you may posses. Since GIRALLON ARMS grants claws only when you bind it to your totem, how can you benefit from both Arm Chakra bind and totem chakra bind at the same time?
You gain the ability to do this at level 11.


2. Do natural attacks granted by soulmelds increase with size or powerful build ability (like, goliaths')?
Size, yes. See MoI 54.

Powerful build, no. The powerful build ability does not affect natural weapon damage.


3. Can you take improved natural attack feat if you have access to soulmelds that grants natural attacks (in example NPCs I have seen improved critical attack for natural attacks as a feat) ?
Yes you can.


If I can, assuming that I take Improved NA (claw), would it effect all the claw attacks I got from possible soulmelds, or should I take separate feats for each soulmeld?
Yes it would.


This are the mechanical aspects I have some diffuculty with. On a related topic, I would also like to ask your opinions on Totem Rager. I see it seems a nice combination of barbarian/totemist via totem rage ability, however, their chakra binds come online way too late, especially compared to totemist. A totemist gets his least chakra binds at level 5, and lesser ones at level 9. Earliest entry to totem rager is 7, and it grants least chakras at character level 10, and lesser ones at fricking level 15. Exactly what ability makes this PRC worthwhile, since I look through some guides and they suggest it as a nice melee PRC for totemist.
It constitutes a minor drop in power compared to straight Totemist, but a major boost in power compared to straight Barbarian.

[Hal0Badger]

You gain the ability to do this at level 11.
Massive missread by me I guess, because you are absolutely right. I thought I could bind 2 souldmelds to my totem chakra, not bind 1 souldmeld to multiple chakras.



Powerful build, no. The powerful build ability does not affect natural weapon damage.
What about Mountain Rage? If I become large sized via mountain rage, would it increase my natural attack damage then?



It constitutes a minor drop in power compared to straight Totemist, but a major boost in power compared to straight Barbarian.

Well, I think it would be a bit better to take 1 level of barbarian, then go straight totemist rather than Totem Rager for my type of character. I want to focus on this soulmelds, and Totem Rager, as I understand, does not advance my Totem Chakra abilities, except the capstone ability of the class.

[XionUnborn01]

What about Mountain Rage? If I become large sized via mountain rage, would it increase my natural attack damage then?

Yes. Powerful Build grants you bonuses to specific things as though you were large but Mountain Rage makes you actually large for the duration so that's why you'd get a boost in damage dice.




Well, I think it would be a bit better to take 1 level of barbarian, then go straight totemist rather than Totem Rager for my type of character. I want to focus on this soulmelds, and Totem Rager, as I understand, does not advance my Totem Chakra abilities, except the capstone ability of the class.

I've never played Totem Rager but they seem underwhelming. Taking a small dip in barbarian and then taking the Extra Rage feat for more uses is probably a better bet for actual build purposes.
If you're thinking Goliath for a race though, I'd make sure to only take a 1 level dip in Barb. Because you want that sweet sweet essentia. If you're playing with LA buyoff, that's even better because by ECL20, that gets you +2 essentia and +1 soulmeld shaped.

[Darrin]

I thought I could bind 2 souldmelds to my totem chakra, not bind 1 souldmeld to multiple chakras.


If you take the Double Chakra feat, you can do this. You could add the Lamia Belt on top of Girallon Arms for another two claw attacks.

[KillingAScarab]

Reason I am asking you this, GIRALLON ARMS souldmeld, bound to your arm chakra, specifically notes that, the rend ability works either with the claw attacks granted by GIRALLON ARMS, or any other claw attacks you may posses. Since GIRALLON ARMS grants claws only when you bind it to your totem, how can you benefit from both Arm Chakra bind and totem chakra bind at the same time?Consider also that the claws could come from, say, the sphinx claws soulmeld which occupies the hands chakra. There are also those psychic warrior powers which grant claw attacks, and Magic of Incarnum plays well with psionics.

[Red Fel]

Looking deeply in this Incarnum classes, totemist really fits a character I wish to play for a very long time, a barbaric force of nature/spirit world. However, I have difficulty to understand some of the features:

1. First of all, how does your totem chakra binds interact with other binds. I understand that it occupies no slot as other chakra binds, nor you can meld soulmelds directly to them. They require your soulmeld to be placed on other chakra first, then binds it on a special empty slot. However, can I bind a souldmeld both in a chakra slot (lets say, hands) and totem at the same time?

First off, you need to understand that a soulmeld can shaped to one slot, but bound to another. When a soulmeld is shaped to a slot, it does not block magic items, but it does block other soulmelds. For instance, the Girallon Arms soulmeld is shaped in the Arms slot. Even if bound to the Totem (to give you claw attacks), it is still shaped to the Arms slot, meaning that you can't shape, say, Riding Bracers to the arms while Girallon Arms are shaped, even if the latter is bound to the Totem.

The exception to this is the Double Chakra feat, which allows you to shape (and bind) two soulmelds to the same chakra.


Reason I am asking you this, GIRALLON ARMS souldmeld, bound to your arm chakra, specifically notes that, the rend ability works either with the claw attacks granted by GIRALLON ARMS, or any other claw attacks you may posses. Since GIRALLON ARMS grants claws only when you bind it to your totem, how can you benefit from both Arm Chakra bind and totem chakra bind at the same time?

As Troacctid says, you gain this ability at level 11.


2. Do natural attacks granted by soulmelds increase with size or powerful build ability (like, goliaths')?

I would say no. Normally, a natural weapon's damage is based on size; frequently, when you gain a natural weapon, the damage is specified based on size.

However, soulmeld-based natural weapons specify that their damage deals X amount; they don't qualify based on size. Further, essentia investment increases that by a fixed amount. Consider: The Sphinx Claws soulmeld, when bound to the Totem, gives you claws that deal 1d8 + Str (+ essentia invested) damage. That's a fixed amount, and surprisingly impressive for a natural weapon on what's usually a Medium creature. Contrast that with the Claws of the Beast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm) psionic power, which deals damage based on size and points invested (note that 1d8 is initially Large damage), the Half-Dragon template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) (where 1d8 is the claw damage of a Huge Half-Dragon), and True Dragons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) (whose claws deal 1d8 starting at Large). 1d8 is a Large creature's claw damage.

Contrast that with Girallon Arms, which have claws that deal 1d4 (Small damage); Bloodtalons, which deal 1d4 (Small damage); Kruthik Claws, which deal 1d6 (Medium damage); and Rageclaws, which deal 1d6 (Medium damage).

The point is, these numbers are apparently arbitrary, and not based on the user's size; I see no reason (other than common sense) to allow size to modify their damage.


3. Can you take improved natural attack feat if you have access to soulmelds that grants natural attacks (in example NPCs I have seen improved critical attack for natural attacks as a feat) ? If I can, assuming that I take Improved NA (claw), would it effect all the claw attacks I got from possible soulmelds, or should I take separate feats for each soulmeld?

Others have advocated that temporary abilities that grant natural weapons (such as the Claws of the Beast power or Eldritch Claws feat) should qualify you for anything requiring a natural attack, at least while they're active. It's questionable, but technically, if it says "you gain a claw attack," then you have a claw attack. If you take Improved NA (claws), then it should effect all claw attacks you possess - not other natural weapons, such as a bite, but definitely any claws. So you only need it once.


This are the mechanical aspects I have some diffuculty with. On a related topic, I would also like to ask your opinions on Totem Rager. I see it seems a nice combination of barbarian/totemist via totem rage ability, however, their chakra binds come online way too late, especially compared to totemist. A totemist gets his least chakra binds at level 5, and lesser ones at level 9. Earliest entry to totem rager is 7, and it grants least chakras at character level 10, and lesser ones at fricking level 15. Exactly what ability makes this PRC worthwhile, since I look through some guides and they suggest it as a nice melee PRC for totemist.

Agreed with other posters. Totem Rager is a great upgrade over Barbarian, as it enhances your Barbarian key class features (Rage and DR), amplifies the effects of the Cobalt Rage feat, and gives you additional soulmeld use. (And, as a matter of principle, soulmelds are great for classes like Barbarians who may have limited gear options.)

But when compared to Totemist... You miss out. First off, you have to have Rage, so if you're taking every level of Totem Rager, that means you have a maximum of 9 Totemist levels, and a maximum Totemist ML of 17, since two levels of Totem Rager don't advance ML. That means you miss out on the ability to double-bind whatever's in your Totem slot, the increased Totem rebinds, the Throat, Waist, and Heart chakras, and the Totem Embodiment capstone. And for that, you're getting Totem Rage, several Extra Rages, DR, and Wild Empathy.

Basically, the class is designed to give Barbarians soulmeld access after a Totemist dip. It's not really as good for a solid Totemist, since several of the abilities (read: chakra binds) are redundant.

[Hal0Badger]

I would say no. Normally, a natural weapon's damage is based on size; frequently, when you gain a natural weapon, the damage is specified based on size.

However, soulmeld-based natural weapons specify that their damage deals X amount; they don't qualify based on size. Further, essentia investment increases that by a fixed amount. Consider: The Sphinx Claws soulmeld, when bound to the Totem, gives you claws that deal 1d8 + Str (+ essentia invested) damage. That's a fixed amount, and surprisingly impressive for a natural weapon on what's usually a Medium creature. Contrast that with the Claws of the Beast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm) psionic power, which deals damage based on size and points invested (note that 1d8 is initially Large damage), the Half-Dragon template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) (where 1d8 is the claw damage of a Huge Half-Dragon), and True Dragons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) (whose claws deal 1d8 starting at Large). 1d8 is a Large creature's claw damage.

Contrast that with Girallon Arms, which have claws that deal 1d4 (Small damage); Bloodtalons, which deal 1d4 (Small damage); Kruthik Claws, which deal 1d6 (Medium damage); and Rageclaws, which deal 1d6 (Medium damage).

The point is, these numbers are apparently arbitrary, and not based on the user's size; I see no reason (other than common sense) to allow size to modify their damage.

I thought the same at first glance, but couldn't be sure so I made this post. After Troacctid posted an answer, I checked the corresponding page on the Magic of Incarnum. Here is a quote from pg 54;


Damage Values: The damage values given for soulmelds that grant natural weapons are for Medium characters. Meldshapers larger or smaller than Medium should adjust these damage values as normal for weapons of sizes other than Medium (see page 114 of the Player’s Handbook).

So they should change with size, but as others mentioned, not with powerful build by RAW. I will ask DM in friendly manner to make small adjustment though :smallamused:



Agreed with other posters. Totem Rager is a great upgrade over Barbarian, as it enhances your Barbarian key class features (Rage and DR), amplifies the effects of the Cobalt Rage feat, and gives you additional soulmeld use. (And, as a matter of principle, soulmelds are great for classes like Barbarians who may have limited gear options.)

But when compared to Totemist... You miss out. First off, you have to have Rage, so if you're taking every level of Totem Rager, that means you have a maximum of 9 Totemist levels, and a maximum Totemist ML of 17, since two levels of Totem Rager don't advance ML. That means you miss out on the ability to double-bind whatever's in your Totem slot, the increased Totem rebinds, the Throat, Waist, and Heart chakras, and the Totem Embodiment capstone. And for that, you're getting Totem Rage, several Extra Rages, DR, and Wild Empathy.

Basically, the class is designed to give Barbarians soulmeld access after a Totemist dip. It's not really as good for a solid Totemist, since several of the abilities (read: chakra binds) are redundant.

It seems to be the case, it is designed more likely to be something for like Barbarian 4/Totemist 2 or Barbarian 5/totemis 1, rather than going totemist and dipping 1 level in barbarian. Normally I would be okay with this, but I want to try out this incarnum alternative mostly, so I will build around 1 level barbarian than straight totemist for now, at least up to level 10-12 so I would get lesser chakras.

I am not up for much optimizing and not particularly chasing a large number of natural attacks. The thing in my mind right now is, having sphinx soulmeld bound to my totem chakra, girallon soulmeld bound to arms, and having Improved Natural Attack, Mountain rage and reckless rage, which will grant me 28 str (without any items) and large size when raging. So 2 attacks for 3d6+9, and if they both connect, another 6d6+18 damage from rend. Not much, but still at least respectable. Another couple of feats and tricks may buff the initial damage of the claw attacks, like cobalt power attack or something. I like to idea investing 2 points in cobalt power , so at -2 I will get 1:2 ratio, which can hugely buff the damage output if I bind another souldmed for more natural attacks, like Girallon Soulmeld.

Is there any way to wear a magical item on a chakra slot that I bind a soulmeld, via feats or other means? If so, I will probably toss armbands of might, which will grant another +2 damage as long as I take -2 to my attack rolls, so ratio for -2 will increase to 1:3 .

[KillingAScarab]

Is there any way to wear a magical item on a chakra slot that I bind a soulmeld, via feats or other means? If so, I will probably toss armbands of might, which will grant another +2 damage as long as I take -2 to my attack rolls, so ratio for -2 will increase to 1:3 .Not that I am aware of.Red Fel found it. The general rule about bound soulmelds & magic items in the 2nd paragraph on page 51 indicates you may not even be able wear an item in a bound slot. I suppose you could pay extra for a custom magic item which occupies a slot other than one associated with the affect you want.

[Red Fel]

I thought the same at first glance, but couldn't be sure so I made this post. After Troacctid posted an answer, I checked the corresponding page on the Magic of Incarnum. Here is a quote from pg 54;

So they should change with size, but as others mentioned, not with powerful build by RAW. I will ask DM in friendly manner to make small adjustment though :smallamused:

Huh. Strike another blow for bad editing; I must have missed that clip dozens of times. Good catch!

But yeah, Powerful Build doesn't actually make you Large, it just allows you to be treated that way for certain things. Those things include size modifiers for opposed checks, size for purposes of an opponent's special abilities (e.g. Improved Grab, Swallow Whole), and ability to use weapons designed for a larger creature. However, your actual size and space don't change, which unfortunately hurts non-weapon users; while a weapon user can upgrade, an unarmed attacker cannot, which stinks.

On the other hand, Mountain Rage fixes that nicely. It does, however, raise a question: Does Mountain Rage count as the Rage feature (which it replaces) for the purpose of prerequisites? Because Totem Rager specifically calls out the "Rage class feature" as a prereq. Mountain Rage says it benefits from features that improve Rage bonuses (such as Greater Rage), but that doesn't mean it goes the other direction.


It seems to be the case, it is designed more likely to be something for like Barbarian 4/Totemist 2 or Barbarian 5/totemis 1, rather than going totemist and dipping 1 level in barbarian. Normally I would be okay with this, but I want to try out this incarnum alternative mostly, so I will build around 1 level barbarian than straight totemist for now, at least up to level 10-12 so I would get lesser chakras.

Do you, chief.


Is there any way to wear a magical item on a chakra slot that I bind a soulmeld, via feats or other means? If so, I will probably toss armbands of might, which will grant another +2 damage as long as I take -2 to my attack rolls, so ratio for -2 will increase to 1:3 .

Split Chakra feat. Allows you to bind a soulmeld and use a magic item on a slot.

Alternatively, if your goal is +damage in exchange for -attack, shape the Dread Carapace soulmeld. It can be shaped to Arms, Feet, or Heart, so you have options as to where to put it, and when shaped, you can gain bonuses to natural attack damage in exchange for penalties on the attack rolls. Alternatively still, shape the Totem Avatar, which can be shaped to Arms, Feet, Heart, or Shoulders. Shape it to the Shoulders. When shaped, it grants bonus HP and an enhancement to Natural Armor, but when bound to the Shoulders, it increases all natural weapon damage - explicitly including soulmelds - by one size category. Alternatively, if bound to your Totem, you gain a morale bonus on natural weapon damage equal to essentia invested.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Not that I am aware of.Red Fel found it. The general rule about bound soulmelds & magic items in the 2nd paragraph on page 51 indicates you may not even be able wear an item in a bound slot. I suppose you could pay extra for a custom magic item which occupies a slot other than one associated with the affect you want.

There is an exception; the incarnum focus. There's a version for every slot and you can combine it with other slotted items per the rules in MiC to get both the desired item and a soulmeld in the same slot. There's also the split chakra feat.

[Hal0Badger]

There is an exception; the incarnum focus. There's a version for every slot and you can combine it with other slotted items per the rules in MiC to get both the desired item and a soulmeld in the same slot. There's also the split chakra feat.

Saw them on the MiC, did not realize the combination rules though good catch. However, they seem a bit expensive (15k), and I couldn't find a noteworthy item beside ability enhancer for my Totemist. I usually use items like, bear helm, acrobat boots, Gloves of fortunate striking, vampiric torc, torc of titans etc etc. But aside from armbands of might for going the power attack routine, I couldn't find a item I want to spend so much or spend a feat for.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Saw them on the MiC, did not realize the combination rules though good catch. However, they seem a bit expensive (15k), and I couldn't find a noteworthy item beside ability enhancer for my Totemist. I usually use items like, bear helm, acrobat boots, Gloves of fortunate striking, vampiric torc, torc of titans etc etc. But aside from armbands of might for going the power attack routine, I couldn't find a item I want to spend so much or spend a feat for.

Don't forget the effect of the incarnum focus itself. +1 to essentia capacity and (if you've got a bind to spare) the utter inability for that soulmeld to be removed or uninvested without your intent are a reasonably substantial benefit in their own right. That said, you probably do want to see about shifting some things around to alternate slots before resorting to combining with an incarnum focus.