[3.5] Build help: Utilising Invisible Fist (Monk ACF) for SA (and other stuff?)

[Nando]

Hello playground.

I'd like to have some help for a build utilising the Monk Invisible Fist ACF (EoE p.21).

I'd like to combine this with Sneak Attacks. So, I'm looking for some nice options for that. I'm aware of the Craven feat and Assasins Stance, but I've got no idea, how to fit all of those things together in a nice build (that's viable from level 1 on, since that is the most likely starting point for me).
Also: tips for race/template(s)?


No Psionics and I'd prefer to stay away from Incarnum (for now). Please give sources (and where to find them, if applicable).

Thanks!

[Ger. Bessa]

Ascetic swift ambusher build :

Halfling Monk5 / Rogue 15
Halfling monk sub level : trade flurry of blow for slow skirmish (+1d6/+1AC at monk 5)
Invisible fist acf.
Rogue (classic)
You qualify for both ascetic ambusher and swift ambusher, meaning at lv20 you have 8d6 SA +5d6/+5AC skirmish and stunning fist DC 22+wis, and the unarmed damages of a lv20 monk.

Add psychic rogue and talashlatora, maybe, for added oumph.

Halfling monk : Races of the Wild
Swift Ambusher : either Complete Adventurer or Complete Scoundrel
Ascetic Ambusher : Complete Adventurer

I'm not certain for the psionics part (I don't even know if psychic rogue works with those feats).

[Nando]

Ascetic Ambusher : Complete Adventurer


I guess you mean Ascetic Rougue? There seems to be no such thing as Ascetic Ambusher...

Otherwise...yeah, looks okay on the paper, but being stuck with five lvls of small Monk with fewer HP than normal... :smallannoyed:

[Mato]

Taking monk* to the ninth level is the only base class you need.
By monk I mean with a lot of alternative class features.
Sidewinder: Dragon #331 pg89, trades out slow fall, still mind, and purity of body.
Gain +3d6 sneak attack by the 9th level, a natural bite attack that can be used with flurry of blows for a few rounds each day, a +4 competence to bluff checks, +4 to strength checks to resist bullrush and overrun. It also grants a +4, or +6 with the fangs out, bonus to intimidate so if you break cover you can try using fear tactics.

Sleeping Tiger: Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sleepingTiger), trades feats around.
+2 bonus to hide checks and your bonus feats become weapon finesse, improved initiative, & improved sunder. If you take power attack (and keep those hide ranks up) you'll also get a special once per round +1d6 increase to sneak attack.

Invisible Fist: Exemplars of Evil, trades evasion for invisibility.
You know about this one, it also gives at-will blink at level 9 which gives you an incorporeal miss chance against spellcasting.

Holy Strike: Complete Champion, trades ki strike for +1d6 vs evil.
The ACF is 4th but Sidewinder gets ki strike @5th so you may want to double check with your DM, you have the ability to trade so I think it should be fine. Evil monks can also select this acf but they get the +1d6 damage bonus against good-aligned opponents instead. This also help put you only a single d6 behind a pure rogue (excluding the 1/rnd ability).

Broken One: Champions of Valor, trades your 6th level feat.
This replaces sleeping tiger's treasure destroying feat with the ability to quickly follow your target across bare stone weeks ago.

Dark Moon Disciple: Link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a), trades wholeness for shadow blend.
Shadow blend is a very powerful ability that keeps you totally concealed as long as you stand in some shade, and unlike invisibility this ability has no limit on duration and cannot be bypassed with see invisible.If your game lasts longer than that I'd look into some sneak attack related prestigious classes.

[Nando]

Woo, lots of thanks, Mato, that looks really nice. Only some little things: Dark Moon and Broken One require diffrent patron deities (Shar and Ilmater). Also, being part of different sects might prove diffi-cult...
And the Sleeping Tiger seems a little...odd, with Weapon Finesse and PA.

Anyway, assuming that all that works (maybe I cut Broken One) any suggestions on race/templates? Feats?

(For further advancement, just because I could, I'd probably want Pounce-Barb in there ;) )

[Mato]

Eh I never pay attention to flavor when it comes to mechanics. And just having PA just means +1d6 sa once per round, you can skip it or even swap fighting styles. I'm a fan of overwhelming attack for chargers and passive way for those that don't want the DM to eyeball your damage numbers.

Race?
Default is human unless you can settle on something better, lesser planetouched tend to be pretty nice.

Templates?
None. Someone may mention buying a collar of umbral metamorphsis later in the game but by then you will already have shadow blend making it redundant. +0 LA is always better than having an increased value, even as a mundane.

Feats?
In no particular order and simply a shotgun of suggestions: craven (cor), staggering strike (cad), maiming strike (eoe), mantis leap (s&f), snap kick (tob), battle jump (ue?), etc.

Items?
Claws of the leopard are gauntlets and thus deal your unarmed damage and they give you pounce (cad), revelation crystal to bypass concealment which negates sneak attack (mic), collar of venom (bovd) + minor schema of venomfire (eb/ss); partial wands of greater mighty wallop, wraithstrike, and hunter's eye. If you want rage, you can buy that through a mantle of rage (online (archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/MagicItems.pdf)).

[Snowbluff]

"... yes, monk is fine if you ignore the rules."

-Snowbluff, 2016

[Efrate]

If you are focusing more on sneak attack and skirmish, try good old strongheart halfling. The difference in die sizes and the strength penalty hurt a bit, but your damage isn't coming from your strength or base damage die. You lost an average of 2 damage an attack (one from strength penalty, one from died size) for a bit better to hit and AC, more stealth synergy, plus no one expects the little guy to punch them VERY hard in a conspicuously vulnerable area that happens to be at perfect hit for ease of access. Try to fit in a level of unarmed swordsage for assassins stance and other goodies. Anytime at or after 9 is generally best. I'd swap mantis leap for something more synergistic if you go that route.

Neraph is also sweet. Neraph's charge is another guaranteed sneak attack because it catches opponents flatfooted and there is nothing they can do about it. Plus all the outsider subtype goodies for your fun polymorph times. Crossclass that UMD.

[Troacctid]

If you are focusing more on sneak attack and skirmish, try good old strongheart halfling. The difference in die sizes and the strength penalty hurt a bit, but your damage isn't coming from your strength or base damage die. You lost an average of 2 damage an attack (one from strength penalty, one from died size) for a bit better to hit and AC, more stealth synergy, plus no one expects the little guy to punch them VERY hard in a conspicuously vulnerable area that happens to be at perfect hit for ease of access.
How are you losing damage by going from regular halfling to strongheart halfling? You should only be losing the +1 bonus to saves.

[Mato]

"... yes, monk is fine if you ignore the rules."
-Snowbluff, 2016In case you haven't noticed my trend here, every down and then I reply to these monkday threads because GitP offers zero support for them and advises playing something else. Even through, as I've also demonstrated in other threads, monks are superior to pure mundanes thanks to their supernatural abilities.

And you are an exemplary showcase, refusing to help and only stopped in to complain about a class. Monk aside, that is a very negative attitude to bring into a thread asking for help.


How are you losing damage by going from regular halfling to strongheart halfling? You should only be losing the +1 bonus to saves.I think it meant halfling vs human.

Unarmed strike has the widest range of power ups allowing you to buff multiple WSAs far cheaper than normal plus there is the whole colossal+ achievability with them. In the long run I don't think halfling is going to even feel a decrease in damage, but those low levels will. You could offset it with flaws & improved natural weapon through.

[Snowbluff]

In case you haven't noticed my trend here, every down and then I reply to these monkday threads because GitP offers zero support for them and advises playing something else. Even through, as I've also demonstrated in other threads, monks are superior to pure mundanes thanks to their supernatural abilities.

And you are an exemplary showcase, refusing to help and only stopped in to complain about a class. Monk aside, that is a very negative attitude to bring into a thread asking for help.

Actually, I was going to help, but then I saw your post, and I felt it would be funnier to make fun of bad advice than to give useful advice. It was worth it for that line. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: It's not even a real monkday thread. Using invisible fist as a dip is pretty commonly suggested for stealth builds.

[Nando]

Concerning "monkday": I'm not really looking for a Monk-build but a SA-build utilising Invisible Fist. I do like the idea of unarmed strike, but I'm definitely open for other suggestions.


I do like simpleish builds, but I'd like to have more options than a core class offers (but, there seems to be no "theurge" class for Rogue/Monk, and the Ascetic feats won't be advanced (on both sides) when joining a PrC, right?)).

Any advice on Martial Study choices (other then Assasins Stance)?

[Snowbluff]

Any advice on Martial Study choices (other then Assasins Stance)?

Okay, so I think some good options would be:

1) Blood in the Water (tiger claw 1): Gives a stacking bonus to attacks and damage for critical hits. Might now work so well for your build, but nice with lots of attacks.
2) Giant Killing Stance (Setting Sun 3): Gives +2 attack and +4 damage versus larger enemies. Super nice if you're small, like a Halfing!
3) Leading the Charge (White Raven 1): Gives a big bonus to charge (up to 10 damage). Good if you're going to make a pouncer.
4) Tactics of the Wolf (White Raven 3): Gives a damage bonus on flanking. Not a good idea with your build, since you'll be using stealth to sneak attack.

[Nando]

Thanks, Snowbluff, but I meant Non-Stance-Maneuvers (as in "how should I fullfill the required known maneuver for Martial Stance (Assassins Stance)?") ;)

Even so, I just checked the minimum Initiator Level thing again (haven't used ToB before...), and if I understood that correctly for Assassins Stance I'd need to be at least lvl 10 (with no initiating classes), which means lvl 12 for the feat slot, right? Is that really worth it?

[Snowbluff]

Thanks, Snowbluff, but I meant Non-Stance-Maneuvers (as in "how should I fullfill the required known maneuver for Martial Stance (Assassins Stance)?") ;) Shadow Jaunt and Cloak of Shadow are always good options.


Even so, I just checked the minimum Initiator Level thing again (haven't used ToB before...), and if I understood that correctly for Assassins Stance I'd need to be at least lvl 10 (with no initiating classes), which means lvl 12 for the feat slot, right? Is that really worth it?

That really depends. Craven and Staggering Strike are probably better priorities. Assassin's Stance adds 7 damage on a sneak attack at the cost of 2 feats. Personally, I would using Giant Killing Stance more more consistency against creatures that might be immune, concealed, or fortified.

[Efrate]

I'd save the feat and dip into unarmed swordsage 1 at level 10. Gets you lots of goodies, a bunch of maneuvers and stances, and keeps your feats. You also get a recovery method FWIW.

[ATHATH]

I don't know if this will help you, but I made an A-Game Monk a while back. Here's a build summary:

Skarn Durable Sacred Strike Holy Monk Wild Monk 2/Broken One 1/Wild Monk 1/Planar Monk 1/Wild Monk 1/Dark Moon Disciple 1/Wild Monk 2/Skarn Monk 1/Wild Monk 10

Maybe you can take bits and pieces of it and use it in your own build?

[Snowbluff]

I'd save the feat and dip into unarmed swordsage 1 at level 10. Gets you lots of goodies, a bunch of maneuvers and stances, and keeps your feats. You also get a recovery method FWIW.
Unfortunately, you can use the first level stance slot only for a first level stance. Fortunately, the second level will give a higher level stance.

[Efrate]

I always forget that weird little rule. Good catch. Swordsage 2 is your AC bonus as well so its not bad to take, and assassin's stance makes up for any lost rogue levels.

[Nando]

I always forget that weird little rule. Good catch. Swordsage 2 is your AC bonus as well so its not bad to take, and assassin's stance makes up for any lost rogue levels.

Wouldn't I try to get the Swordsage-dip as early as possible, e.g. after lvl 6 (6 half-initiator lvls + 2 initiator lvls= 5 initiator lvls, quallifying for 3rd lvl maneuvers)?

@ATHATH: Could you try to give sources?

[Snowbluff]

Wouldn't I try to get the Swordsage-dip as early as possible, e.g. after lvl 6 (6 half-initiator lvls + 2 initiator lvls= 5 initiator lvls, quallifying for 3rd lvl maneuvers.

Yes, assuming you're not interested in higher maneuvers and are starting at lower level. :)