D&D 3.5: Ideas on how to introduce and then execute a Mary Sue character

[Corgamesh]

Hi there Playground!

I just started playing with a new group as the DM. We finished the first session/adventure which was great fun, and are going to soon play the second. I'm starting to plan ahead though - my idea is to run the mostly-newbie group through some one-off adventures which lead them to the beginning of the Red Hand of Doom campaign. Basically I just want to give them some experience, both to their characters and the new players (and make sure that the group doesn't dissolve) before starting the actual campaign.

One idea I had for a adventure was to have them rescue some "legendary hero" -type of NPC (to help with the coming war) who would be described as their "Only Hope" or something. And then making sure that character died before stealing the spotlight from the players.

The point would be to play a reverse DMPC thing on them - making them happy to see that character go, but at the same time scare them with the enemies' capability. Giving them the reins, but making them realize they have to do things without outside help.

Do you think this might be a good idea, or fun for the players?

Secondly, I need some kind of justification to how such a strong character could be killed by the enemy, and how to do it dramatically. My first idea was some kind of Mid-level Fighter (rare enough to be called a hero by the people) get ganked by sneak attacks & disabling spells/magic. But I would love to hear your better ideas for this, and for anything else I mentioned as well :smallsmile:

(We are running a quite light-hearted game in general, but I wouldn't mind some Game-of-Thronesy death scenes)

[ILM]

Well, you can't have him killed by someone with the same shtick, only better. Like if he's a badass swordsman (which I assume the PCs will have the opportunity to witness), if a villain swordsman comes up and slices him up, then he'll necessarily have to be even higher level and you'll have to figure out:
a) why he doesn't kill the PCs on the spot as well, and
b) how the PCs are supposed to kill him if he's so over-leveled.

So I'd recommend having the enemy play to the hero's weaknesses and circumvent his strength altogether. Hero's a badass swordsman? Don't even face him in combat - poison him or dominate him off a cliff or something. The foe can be level-appropriate to the hero, just better prepared. This means that he may actually be uncomfortable with facing your entire group of PCs without the element of surprise and GTFO after the assassination (instead of cleaning house), and also lets your players believe that they can kill him if they manage to get to him.

[Corgamesh]

Well, you can't have him killed by someone with the same shtick, only better. Like if he's a badass swordsman (which I assume the PCs will have the opportunity to witness), if a villain swordsman comes up and slices him up, then he'll necessarily have to be even higher level and you'll have to figure out:
a) why he doesn't kill the PCs on the spot as well, and
b) how the PCs are supposed to kill him if he's so over-leveled.

So I'd recommend having the enemy play to the hero's weaknesses and circumvent his strength altogether. Hero's a badass swordsman? Don't even face him in combat - poison him or dominate him off a cliff or something. The foe can be level-appropriate to the hero, just better prepared. This means that he may actually be uncomfortable with facing your entire group of PCs without the element of surprise and GTFO after the assassination (instead of cleaning house), and also lets your players believe that they can kill him if they manage to get to him.

Yes, this is exactly what I was going for. Maybe even go further than that - instead of someone close to his level, but prepared, make it three or five or ten lower level sneaks using dirty tactics and try to vanish into the night afterwards.

[Geddy2112]

A tragic flaw is not very Mary sue, but you could have one that is a secret and have it exploited by an enemy.Their weakness could be something like water on the wicked witch of the west. Nothing they would easily think of, but a common thing that easily defeats them.

A mary sue makes for an excellent antagonist. You could have a 1 off adventure where the great hero of so and so causes a problem and the PC's have to go defeat them. Make it to where the PC's combined can do it, or they eventually become the greatest and the best. Or you could make it a red herring, where the Mary Sue hero is actually really weak compared to the PC's and after they slog through the guards and soldiers, they defeat Mary Sue or Marty Stu in a single round.

[Flickerdart]

You don't need to make him a good swordsman, or the villain a better swordsman.

Why the Chosen One can be a scrub

The PCs are 1st level, everyone is 1st level, the Chosen One is 3rd level. The PCs catch up to him after a week of adventuring, but surviving that sort of thing isn't gonna be easy.
The Chosen One is not a chosen warrior. He has Heart or Destiny or The Blessing of the Gods or Irritating Sarcasm. He is a snarky politico or an annoying preacher.
The Chosen One used to be awesome, but horrible torture has weakened him/the BBEG has a hostage and demands the Chosen One kill himself or whatever/doing the Great Chosen One Ritual has taken away his powers.



Why a weak-ish enemy can still beat a stronger Chosen One

The BBEG whips out a scroll of Mordenkainen's unbearably painful curse of fatal death and wastes the Mary Sue. Shame that he could only afford one, so he has to take on the PCs fair and square.
While in the middle of whatever ritual, the Chosen One is distracted, and boom! Sneak attack.
The BBEG optimized his build against the Chosen One. Oathbow-type weapons, wasted all his spell slots just to get close, Favored Enemy and Bane effects keyed against the Chosen One's obnoxious special snowflake race, etc.
Mobs, mobs, mobs. Temporary summoned creatures, expendable mooks intended to overwhelm the Chosen One with numbers, cowards who run off at the last moment, etc.

[denthor]

How to introduce Your hero

Have there be a rumor Legend that the statue in the Town Square is a great hero that got turned to stone by a Medusa.

Somebody in the past who was part of their group rescued the statue but had no way to turn it back into flesh.

One-off Quest get this ointment that turns Stone to flesh .
The hero turns out to be a chaotic neutral mess that sides with the Enemy.
The players then have to cut down this fourth or fifth level fighter.

Stats:

STR 20
DEX 16
INT 5
WIS 6
CON 17
CHA 19

Quote Bows are for girlie men!

Two long swords all he really understands is things cut in two do not move can not hurt him.

On the fence about barbarian but should be.

Give two weapon fighting but not really an optimal build beyond that.

[Ahus]

Yes, this is exactly what I was going for. Maybe even go further than that - instead of someone close to his level, but prepared, make it three or five or ten lower level sneaks using dirty tactics and try to vanish into the night afterwards.

Since the plan is Red Hand you can just add a high level sorcerer, who may just be the BBEG alternate formed into a handy sized package, to the initial encounter to waste Mary Sue on camera. Knowing that Mary Sue was the worlds only hope the BBEG could then stroll away leaving the other critters in the encounter to deal with the PC's. Either taking Mary Sue's mega ridiculous magic items or disjoining them during the battle to keep the PCs WBL from getting of hand. Heck Mary Sue could be packing a few items of Legacy that will scale with the PCs mitigating some of the Item Creation with Red Hand.

[Flickerdart]

The BBEG could also hit the Mary Sue with true mind switch or mindrape or morality undone or tricks him into using a helm of opposite alignment and they skip off cackling into the sunset. The Mary Sue is effectively defeated, and the PCs know just how strong he is...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Have them walk out of the bar and say something to the effect of; "I am the great and mighty Sue of Mary. I have come to save you from...." and have her cut off in mid sentence by having a piece of the archetecture collapse on her and kill her.

What? You said you wanted to know how to introduce and "execute" a mary sue character. I'd've suggested a guillotine if I could figure out how to get it in within the first few moments without violating what it is to be a mary sue.

If the above didn't make it clear, I'm pretty strongly against the introduction of mary sue type characters for much of any reason. Save the insufferable, you-want-to-see-them-killed character until the players are a bit more entrenched in the hobby. You're less likely to drive them away that way.

[Gallowglass]

Have them walk out of the bar and say something to the effect of; "I am the great and mighty Sue of Mary. I have come to save you from...." and have her cut off in mid sentence by having a piece of the archetecture collapse on her and kill her.

What? You said you wanted to know how to introduce and "execute" a mary sue character. I'd've suggested a guillotine if I could figure out how to get it in within the first few moments without violating what it is to be a mary sue.

If the above didn't make it clear, I'm pretty strongly against the introduction of mary sue type characters for much of any reason. Save the insufferable, you-want-to-see-them-killed character until the players are a bit more entrenched in the hobby. You're less likely to drive them away that way.

Did... did you even read the OP, or just the title?

Because your use of "execute" is the same use of "execute" the OP is using.

He's planning on killing the Mary-Sue. That's the point.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Did... did you even read the OP, or just the title?

Because your use of "execute" is the same use of "execute" the OP is using.

He's planning on killing the Mary-Sue. That's the point.

I did both and chose to address the title as a joke.

I take issue with mary sues in general and, even with the intent of killing it, introducing one is likely to strain the enjoyment of the players. I was advising the OP to scrap the idea and consider revisiting it at a later date.

[Gallowglass]

I did both and chose to address the title as a joke.

I take issue with mary sues in general and, even with the intent of killing it, introducing one is likely to strain the enjoyment of the players. I was advising the OP to scrap the idea and consider revisiting it at a later date.

Well then, I agree with you.

Carry on.

[Prime32]

Do you think this might be a good idea, or fun for the players?It depends on your execution, but making a deliberately annoying character and taking away the players' agency to focus on him is not likely to be fun.

So don't make him annoying. Make this legendary hero a really cool guy who has a lot of respect for the PCs, and who gives them free stuff. That way you're not just showing the villain's power, you're making the PCs hate the villain.

As for how to kill him, maybe he's really old and needs to wear an amulet to stay alive? An amulet which the villain needs for his plans.

[Honest Tiefling]

Firstly, consider how the players will interact with said Mary Sue. You say that they'll rescue the character, so what if the character bought them a free round? Basically, the Mary Sue is not a complete jerkwad to the party so they don't try to kill the Mary Sue themselves and it isn't torture to interact with the character.

Secondly, you could also go with the idea that several people gang up on the Mary Sue for various reasons. Could just be some people who have a temporary truce for a bit or lieutenants that all converge on the poor guy. But they then split off from each other, either because they have things to do or can't stand the sight of one another. The party's job is to overcome one of this group after another, and would add the element that tipping off the others without making them really, really, really, want to see their victim dead would be a bad idea. Add in some stealth so the don't get jumped like the last guy did.