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squidthingy
2007-06-27, 09:56 AM
Are there any other classes that can open locks/disable devices, because I can only think of the rogue. Which means that every campaign either has to have a rouge in the party or it has to have a DM who doesn't use traps/locks, ever

Zid
2007-06-27, 10:00 AM
Spellthief?

Dan_Hemmens
2007-06-27, 10:01 AM
Spellcasters can do it with magic. I don't know about any other classes. Ninjas, maybe?

Increasingly, though, I'm not sure of the point of traps and locks.

A trap is basically a static challenge that encourages people to slow to a crawl while they check everything in meticulous detail.

As for locks. Either the rogue *can* open it by taking 20, in which case they will, and there's no point in locking the thing in the first place, or they can't, and there's no point in its being there either.

Quietus
2007-06-27, 10:01 AM
Beguilers can do it.

That said, you CAN have traps/locks/etc. But you'd do well to have characters who can cast the spell that lets them detect traps and the like, and someone with enough strength (or just an adamantine weapon) to bust through the doors.

Nnanji
2007-06-27, 10:03 AM
In the PHB rogues are the only class that has trapfinding. In PHB2 the Beguiler has trapfinding, as well as (I believe) all the classes in Complete Adventurer. The Artificer from Eberron can find traps and disable the magical ones. Prolly others too. I wouldn't be surprised if there are PRCs that offer trapfinding.

Roog
2007-06-27, 10:03 AM
Factorum IIRC.

lukelightning
2007-06-27, 10:10 AM
My high-level group normally bypasses locks with an adamantine falchion.

With my low-level one, I have a beguiler, and I convinced my DM to combine open lock and disable device (after all, isn't a lock just a device?). I don't plan on putting too many ranks in it, though, since beguilers get knock.

Nnanji
2007-06-27, 10:11 AM
Spellcasters can do it with magic. I don't know about any other classes. Ninjas, maybe?

Increasingly, though, I'm not sure of the point of traps and locks.

A trap is basically a static challenge that encourages people to slow to a crawl while they check everything in meticulous detail.

As for locks. Either the rogue *can* open it by taking 20, in which case they will, and there's no point in locking the thing in the first place, or they can't, and there's no point in its being there either.


Hmm, while there is some truth to what you say, I appreciate traps and locks for variety and theme. Not every encounter should be able to be solved with a sword or a diplomacy check.

Traps can be thematically appropriate. What mummy's tomb or lost temple would be complete without the room filling with sand or the giant rolling boulder? If it worked for Dr. Jones it can work for you!

Locks are also good for tension. They don't have to just be in front of you slowing you down. The haunted mansion's doors always slam shut behind you and lock as the ghosts crawl out of the woodwork. Taking 20 isn't always an option when you want to get out fast.

And of course, they work well together too. The garbage disposal scene in Star Wars wouldn't have been nearly as threatening if they could just walk out.

cupkeyk
2007-06-27, 10:21 AM
Open Lock is just a skill, so anyone can take it albeit cross class, meanwhile only characters with trapfinding can search for traps with DC's higher than 20 but otherwise anyone can search for traps. Trapfinding is a class feature for Rogues, Scouts, Ninjas, Spellthieves, Beguilers and Clerics with the Kobold domain.

Dark Knight Renee
2007-06-27, 10:24 AM
Beguilers, Spellthief, Scout, and Ninja. I believe Beguiler and Spellthief may have access to magical means, as well, such as Knock (though granted, I'm not familiar with Spellthief's options).

Dervag
2007-06-27, 10:30 AM
Hmm, while there is some truth to what you say, I appreciate traps and locks for variety and theme. Not every encounter should be able to be solved with a sword or a diplomacy check.

Traps can be thematically appropriate. What mummy's tomb or lost temple would be complete without the room filling with sand or the giant rolling boulder? If it worked for Dr. Jones it can work for you!

Locks are also good for tension. They don't have to just be in front of you slowing you down. The haunted mansion's doors always slam shut behind you and lock as the ghosts crawl out of the woodwork. Taking 20 isn't always an option when you want to get out fast.

And of course, they work well together too. The garbage disposal scene in Star Wars wouldn't have been nearly as threatening if they could just walk out.You're right, I think.

One of the commonplaces of military tactics is that an obstacle not covered by fire is not an obstacle. There's no point in putting a minefield, a trench, or a wall in the enemy's way if you're not in a position to shoot at the guys trying to disarm it, fill it in, or knock it down. Because if they can attack the obstacle unmolested, then sooner or later the enemy will break through your obstacle and continue on their way.

Likewise, in D&D an obstacle not covered by an encounter is not an obstacle. A 30' wall will only slightly slow a low-level party that has a competent climber in their ranks, and it will hardly slow a mid-level party with flying magic at all. Likewise a pit trap. Likewise a lock. None of those things are serious obstacles in and of themselves, because they don't fight back. Sooner or later, the party will bypass them and continue on their way.

But, just as a minefield becomes a much more dangerous obstacle when there's a sniper on the far side of it shooting at the guys with the minesweepers, a lock becomes a much more dangerous obstacle when there's a minotaur charging up the passageway at you and you need to get behind that door now. A 30' wall becomes a much more serious threat when there's a bunch of goblins dropping rocks from the top of it. A poison dart trap is more serious when your party has to fight a bunch of monsters after taking Strength damage from the poison. And so on.

SoulCatcher78
2007-06-27, 10:47 AM
While I agree with the above, the main reason to use traps is to exhaust a groups healing/other spells and slow them down with injured members. While the system doesn't add any detail for broken bones/sprains/etc, it does give us the option to reduce stats (like the lowered STR above, lowered DEX for a sprain or break, impede saves (_1 to fort saves, etc)). Be creative in what a trap causes and it can cause more difficulty than originally planned. Given a little planning, a bit of poison or a punji stick trap can cause more long term headaches than a dungeon full of monsters.

GoblinJTHM
2007-06-27, 11:02 AM
from a role playin sense as a PC, if you built a dungeon, would you put traps in it?

cupkeyk
2007-06-27, 11:13 AM
Yes, i would put traps in my dungeon. Allies can always bypass traps safely so this allows me to set-up battlefield control at ambush points with out the use of magic.

Our DM once made a nice combat situation where we were fighting a clay golem in a toppled tower that was rolling down a mountain. It was not so bad that the golem was chasing us but it was also falling on us, dealing damage. Plus furniture was also falling on us. that and we were occassionally falling too if we couldn't succeed climb checks. The rogue was spending each round opening locked doors to have us dodge falling debris and escape the golem, only to have it follow us to the next room. Of course the tower rolled, closing doors and conveniently locking them, relocating the furniture and so on. Fun game that one. Each time we entered the room from the top, all the furniture was on the bottom, so we had to wait for the tower to roll sufficiently to have the furniture get tossed out of the doors way before we could open it.

FireSpark
2007-06-27, 11:13 AM
from a role playin sense as a PC, if you built a dungeon, would you put traps in it?

I have in the past, but mine are always the elaborate, no-getting-around-it-easily kind of traps. (Some examples: classic long hallway with swinging pendulum axes, large room with randomly placed pits, and everybody's favorite of stuff shooting out of walls.) Although I also like puzzle traps (ie: move the levers into the correct position to pass. Screw up and get in trouble) And they're usually placed a little blatently simply becasue nobody likes waiting while the rogue performs a Search check in every 5-foot square. Of course, as mentioned above, it's a lot more fun and meaningful if your navigating a pit laden room, whilst being accosted by flying enemies or such.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-06-27, 11:16 AM
from a role playin sense as a PC, if you built a dungeon, would you put traps in it?

On the flip side: why would you build a dungeon in the first place?

lukelightning
2007-06-27, 11:22 AM
I like "encounter traps."

Things that aren't "you enter the room, set off a barrage of darts trap, make a DC 17 reflex save or take 4d6 damage..." but rather "you set off the trap...dart-throwers pop out of the wall and start shooting at you...roll initiative"

Then the party has options like run away, charge in and smash the dart-throwers, creep along the wall and disable them, etc.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-06-27, 11:22 AM
you keep your treasure and live somewhere

Live in a house. Or a castle if you're rich, or a private demiplane if you're an archmage. Keep your treasure in a vault. Lock the vault. Keep the key.

Zeful
2007-06-27, 11:27 AM
Traps can also be used for battlefield control, pit traps that reset and lock themselves are a good way to separate the party into two groups that are easier to kill then the whole. Moving walls, and colasping ceilings are other ways. Only lethal traps are the ones the rouge can find so the game doesn't end.

Locks on the other hand are anoying most of the time, they don't pose an obsitcal unless combined with another encounter. Like in star wars, if the monster in the trash compactor wasn't there and the walls didn't colaspe, the lock on the door would have been worthless. The lock isn't the chalenge unless it needs some rediculous key that you need to find.

Saph
2007-06-27, 11:38 AM
Are there any other classes that can open locks/disable devices, because I can only think of the rogue. Which means that every campaign either has to have a rouge in the party or it has to have a DM who doesn't use traps/locks, ever

Scouts and Beguilers have trapfinding too. But there are plenty of ways to get around traps and locks without trapfinding/open lock.

Option 1: A really big weapon, aka the "Dwarven Lockpick".

Rogue: Hmm, the door's locked and I can't open it.
Barbarian: Thog try.
Rogue: No, I said it's locked, you can't-
Barbarian: THOG SMASH! RAAAAR!
*Power Attack*
*Door explodes into splinters*
Rogue: . . . Okay, then.

Option 2: Use common sense and tools.

Rogue: I think this door's trapped, but I don't want to risk disabling it.
Sorcerer: Why?
Rogue: Because I think the door's going to fall on me if I mess up.
Sorcerer: Fine, just back off.
*party backs up to end of corridor*
Sorcerer: Open/Close.
*door collapses on the square in front of it*
Sorcerer: In you go.

Option 3: Spells.

DM: Thog, after beating the metal door for five minutes it's become clear that it's not going to break.
Wizard: Detect Magic.
DM: It's got an arcane lock spell on it.
Wizard: Knock.
DM: Door's open.

Option 4 (for traps): Wand of Cure Light Wounds.

DM: Thog, you set off a trap. You take 17 damage.
Cleric: I heal him.
Barbarian: Thog keeps walking ahead.
DM: You set off another trap. You take 8 damage.
Cleric: I heal him.
Barbarian: Thog keeps walking ahead.
DM: You set off another trap. You take 26 damage.
Cleric: I heal him.
Barbarian: Thog keeps walking ahead.
DM: You set off another trap. You take 40 damage.
Cleric: I heal him.
Barbarian: Thog keeps walking ahead.
(repeat until BBEG runs out of traps)

Option 5: (for locks) Find key, open lock.

And so on. Having a rogue makes locks and traps a lot easier to deal with, but you can still get around them.

As a DM, it's a bad idea to never use traps and locks just because the party doesn't have a character with trapfinding. Cutting down on the number is fine, but if there are none at all then it gives the impression that the BBEG is specifically trying to make things easy for the PCs by not using any obstacle they don't know how to deal with. Players like to feel that there's some point to their special skills.

- Saph